Originally posted by AdalwulffIve read your posts, its clear you are playing the wrong games, simple as that.EVE would be more your style, and PS2, and of course the obvious Mortal online. But, to walk into a game like WoW or Rift, or Aion and complain about the group content, is pointless and a bit selfish.I just went down the list of games here at MMORPG, and I counted dozens of games that cater to players like you, but your still not happy, that leads me to believe you will never be happy.I think game devs have caught onto this, and left you behing in favor of players who appreciate group content.
I don't complain, I state simple observations based on obvious facts. What I disagree with though is to blame the soloers for something only the game design is culprit of. Soloers do not breed elitism.
And you have not even the start of a clue about what I like in games. I've most likely been further in WoW raiding than many here, which permits me to talk about it in an informed way too. I've played it for 7 years, it's a good game, but I know the weaknesses of the model too. I'm not one of those fans who only see positives in every game he plays.
Being able to either solo or group as you wish depending on your mood has NOTHING to do with EvE or Mortal Online (which is a crap game, I bought the collector back then, wasted money). AC1 did it too, and it was not a pure sandbox at all, and GW2 is doing it again (which makes your last sentence obviously wrong, of course).
Not all MMORPGs have to be "EQ" clones with a gear carrot based end game. Only people who never knew anything else can believe is the only viable MMORPG model. And of course, soloers are the easy target to blame when it comes to the obvious weaknesses of that model... it's called a scapegoat I think.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Originally posted by AdalwulffIve read your posts, its clear you are playing the wrong games, simple as that.EVE would be more your style, and PS2, and of course the obvious Mortal online. But, to walk into a game like WoW or Rift, or Aion and complain about the group content, is pointless and a bit selfish.I just went down the list of games here at MMORPG, and I counted dozens of games that cater to players like you, but your still not happy, that leads me to believe you will never be happy.I think game devs have caught onto this, and left you behing in favor of players who appreciate group content.
I don't complain, I state simple observations based on obvious facts. What I disagree with though is to blame the soloers for something only the game design is culprit of. Soloers do not breed elitism.
And you have not even the start of a clue about what I like in games. I've most likely been further in WoW raiding than many here, which permits me to talk about it in an informed way too. I've played it for 7 years, it's a good game, but I know the weaknesses of the model too. I'm not one of those fans who only see positives in every game he plays.
Being able to either solo or group as you wish depending on your mood has NOTHING to do with EvE or Mortal Online (which is a crap game, I bought the collector back then, wasted money). AC1 did it too, and it was not a pure sandbox at all, and GW2 is doing it again (which makes your last sentence obviously wrong, of course).
Not all MMORPGs have to be "EQ" clones with a gear carrot based end game. Only people who never knew anything else can believe is the only viable MMORPG model. And of course, soloers are the easy target to blame when it comes to the obvious weaknesses of that model... it's called a scapegoat I think.
can your provide an example of how a game mechanic can enhance social play in a way you desire.
The concern I have is that normally social activity doesnt need any game mechanic to happen if people want to be social they will be social. So it implies that people DONT want to be social but a mechanic could make them so. I am sure this is not what you mean but this is my baseline understanding at the moment.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
If the game's focus was solo play (as is for most MMOs nowadays), then the players will grow used to solo'ing and continue to expect the content to be solo-able from Lv.1 to max. This is exactly why you see all the time content being nerfed (and even classes, because it's a lot easier to nerf a class than to use teamwork to defeat a better player right?). It's absolutely ridiculous, and it is exactly what breeds "elitism", it's not grouping.
In MMORPGs that focuses on solo and individual success, elitism is rampamt. If you group in those MMOs with other players, you will be ridiculed for not choosing the "best build" and be left out, because you would be holding said "group" back (in Raids or PvP Arena for example). And if you're not doing your "job" right, you will be trash talked for being horrible and then left out. Why? Because Solo MMORPGs have turned other players into tools to further your character's advancement. They are nothing more than that, temporary tools you have to deal with to reach max level. Relationship with these players are irrelevant as they will be forgotten immediatly or left out as soon as the raid or PvP match is over, and even more so if they didn't pick the idea build or class that will allow you to maximize your character advancement. That is elitism.
(Forced) Grouping requires that players know how to socialize and show a certain amount of maturity, and bad players will be cut out of your groups. Why? Because these groups become long-term groups and friends, and will rely on each others to fulfill various tasks and create a fun environment/mood. If a player's bad behavior is ruining the fun for others, he will be cut out. The joy of grouping isn't to continuously kill monsters for long period of times, but also act as a social activity where players will develop bonds that will last even beyond the game. That is not elitism.
You don't make any sense. How can people minding their own business and doing their stuff without relying on others breed elitism? The elitism starts as soon as one attempts to participate in group activities. Then, if he's not the "perfect player", a specific category of group players will look down on him and discriminate him, without even giving him a chance. Why? Because they don't want to socialize in those loot centric games, they want their reward, and that "not perfect" player is slowing them down. I didn't even say "stop them", I just said "slowing them down".
You are right to say that Elitism starts as soon as one attempts to participate in group activities, but that is not because grouping is bad, but because players have grown used to solo content and not having to interact with other players to achieve something. They solo everything. So once they eventually get down to grouping for Raids and such, they will view other players as tools, because that's what they are. Each and everyone of them view each others as tools for further their own character advancement. The advancement of other players is completely irrelevant so long as you can keep going up.
Grouping, to these players is a nuisance, and they will trash talk anyone that slows them down. That is not because grouping is bad, that is because they have grown used to being catered with rewards of all sorts that only them will have access to for soloing, they have become used to being the "only player". Interaction with other players will only slow them down in their progression.
But now I get why you think that grouping is bad. WoW appears to be your main example, but WoW is exactly the type of game I'm talking about. WoW allows players to solo for a large part of the game, and rewards them continuously for it. These solo players have become elitist and once they reach the point where they need to group for those heroics, they just see anyone else as tools slowing him down. This is exactly what I've been talking about and why this industry is in such a bad state.
If your main "grouping" experience comes from games like WoW, then you are sadly misleaded on what grouping in "forced" group MMOs works. Adalwulf mentionned EVE Online, and you should definitively check it out. I doubt you'd like it, but it's a perfect example of players getting together, forming long-term groups (turning into Clans) and achieving a lot of amazing things.
Originally posted by AdalwulffIve read your posts, its clear you are playing the wrong games, simple as that.EVE would be more your style, and PS2, and of course the obvious Mortal online. But, to walk into a game like WoW or Rift, or Aion and complain about the group content, is pointless and a bit selfish.I just went down the list of games here at MMORPG, and I counted dozens of games that cater to players like you, but your still not happy, that leads me to believe you will never be happy.I think game devs have caught onto this, and left you behing in favor of players who appreciate group content.
I don't complain, I state simple observations based on obvious facts. What I disagree with though is to blame the soloers for something only the game design is culprit of. Soloers do not breed elitism.
And you have not even the start of a clue about what I like in games. I've most likely been further in WoW raiding than many here, which permits me to talk about it in an informed way too. I've played it for 7 years, it's a good game, but I know the weaknesses of the model too. I'm not one of those fans who only see positives in every game he plays.
Being able to either solo or group as you wish depending on your mood has NOTHING to do with EvE or Mortal Online (which is a crap game, I bought the collector back then, wasted money). AC1 did it too, and it was not a pure sandbox at all, and GW2 is doing it again (which makes your last sentence obviously wrong, of course).
Not all MMORPGs have to be "EQ" clones with a gear carrot based end game. Only people who never knew anything else can believe is the only viable MMORPG model. And of course, soloers are the easy target to blame when it comes to the obvious weaknesses of that model... it's called a scapegoat I think.
To be clear, I am not a raider, never have been. I only play MMOs with good PvP, so I am not with the grouper camp or the solo camp, Im wth the PvPers.
In GW2 the content up to end game, like DE's are still centered on groups, your just not forced to be in the same group. The end game content is centered on group efforts. The PvP is the same way.
So Im a bit confused, games like GW2 are giving you just what you wanted right? Or does GW2 need to be MORE solo friendly?
If the game's focus was solo play (as is for most MMOs nowadays), then the players will grow used to solo'ing and continue to expect the content to be solo-able from Lv.1 to max. This is exactly why you see all the time content being nerfed (and even classes, because it's a lot easier to nerf a class than to use teamwork to defeat a better player right?). It's absolutely ridiculous, and it is exactly what breeds "elitism", it's not grouping.
In MMORPGs that focuses on solo and individual success, elitism is rampamt. If you group in those MMOs with other players, you will be ridiculed for not choosing the "best build" and be left out, because you would be holding said "group" back (in Raids or PvP Arena for example). And if you're not doing your "job" right, you will be trash talked for being horrible and then left out. Why? Because Solo MMORPGs have turned other players into tools to further your character's advancement. They are nothing more than that, temporary tools you have to deal with to reach max level. Relationship with these players are irrelevant as they will be forgotten immediatly or left out as soon as the raid or PvP match is over, and even more so if they didn't pick the idea build or class that will allow you to maximize your character advancement. That is elitism.
(Forced) Grouping requires that players know how to socialize and show a certain amount of maturity, and bad players will be cut out of your groups. Why? Because these groups become long-term groups and friends, and will rely on each others to fulfill various tasks and create a fun environment/mood. If a player's bad behavior is ruining the fun for others, he will be cut out. The joy of grouping isn't to continuously kill monsters for long period of times, but also act as a social activity where players will develop bonds that will last even beyond the game. That is not elitism.
You don't make any sense. How can people minding their own business and doing their stuff without relying on others breed elitism? The elitism starts as soon as one attempts to participate in group activities. Then, if he's not the "perfect player", a specific category of group players will look down on him and discriminate him, without even giving him a chance. Why? Because they don't want to socialize in those loot centric games, they want their reward, and that "not perfect" player is slowing them down. I didn't even say "stop them", I just said "slowing them down".
You are right to say that Elitism starts as soon as one attempts to participate in group activities, but that is not because grouping is bad, but because players have grown used to solo content and not having to interact with other players to achieve something. They solo everything. So once they eventually get down to grouping for Raids and such, they will view other players as tools, because that's what they are. Each and everyone of them view each others as tools for further their own character advancement. The advancement of other players is completely irrelevant so long as you can keep going up.
Grouping, to these players is a nuisance, and they will trash talk anyone that slows them down. That is not because grouping is bad, that is because they have grown used to being catered with rewards of all sorts that only them will have access to for soloing, they have become used to being the "only player". Interaction with other players will only slow them down in their progression.
But now I get why you think that grouping is bad. WoW appears to be your main example, but WoW is exactly the type of game I'm talking about. WoW allows players to solo for a large part of the game, and rewards them continuously for it. These solo players have become elitist and once they reach the point where they need to group for those heroics, they just see anyone else as tools slowing him down. This is exactly what I've been talking about and why this industry is in such a bad state.
If your main "grouping" experience comes from games like WoW, then you are sadly misleaded on what grouping in "forced" group MMOs works. Adalwulf mentionned EVE Online, and you should definitively check it out. I doubt you'd like it, but it's a perfect example of players getting together, forming long-term groups (turning into Clans) and achieving a lot of amazing things.
Well said!
Damn I wish I could write this well, my point always seems to get lost, thank you!
Probably because solo players make the most sense in an MMO. It's a persistent world, the vast majority of players are going to be solo the vast majority of the time, unless you expect them never to login unless someone they can group with is on. That is unrealistic and makes no sense. Most people are independent in real life and prefer to be indepdent in virtual worlds. That's what MMO's are: virtual worlds. I life in real life as well but I do not need 19 other players to have my breakfast, study for a test, or visit the zoo. Nonetheless, I exist, and they exist, and sometimes we cross paths and affect each other, which is what makes the world alive.
This weird implication that MMO = being in a group of 5 people 24/7 makes no sense from the standpoint of human nature, development resources, or world persistence. An MMO where people only play when they are grouped will not give you a virtual world, it will give you a lobby with instances, which is exactly what the later MMO's (WoW and on) are right now. They're not MMO's, they're lobby games with an MMO world they do not care for. If that's what you are looking for, we, people who want a virtual world, can tell you to go play a game where you can just collect your group in advance and do something for <40 people.
We can, on the other hand, continue to enjoy a massive world, which has thousands in it, and doesn't consist of forced, pre-scheduled groups, but of little interactions between players ranging from active trade to random player encounters. The moment you generated an MMO full of forced group encounters where you have to find XX people using specs Y and Z to beat it and it gives you the best loot, and it's instanced, you're not playing an MMO anymore, you have yourself a lobby multiplayer game.
So let me ask you. WTF are you lobby multiplayer gamers doing in my MMO if you just want pre-scripted instanced encounters? Go play some World of Tanks or something. Or Diablo III.
can your provide an example of how a game mechanic can enhance social play in a way you desire.
The concern I have is that normally social activity doesnt need any game mechanic to happen if people want to be social they will be social. So it implies that people DONT want to be social but a mechanic could make them so. I am sure this is not what you mean but this is my baseline understanding at the moment.
You got it, but didn't understand it.
Forced grouping is a game mechanic attempting to force people to be social in order to gain the "reward carrot", something which obviously doesn't work well and only breeds elitism and poor quality communities where people only use each other to get to the reward. I'm not saying all people act that way, of course, but it only takes a couple of bad apples to ruin the whole basket.
Games which make people go together naturally, without forcing them, have always had better communities than EQ/WoW clones. The WoW community is legendary for being among the worse of the MMORPG industry. The game itself can be fun, and it is indeed since it's well done, the core of that group centric end game holds the seeds for the crappy community that game has. LOTRO is among the very few theme parks which have... let's say a "higher than average" community, because the game offers a ton of things to do beside the inevitable group/raid gear centric end game.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I like playing with other people, I just hate people controlling how i want to have fun. When playing tabletop games, there's nothing worse than being locked into a party (or a campaign) with someone who you hate playing with.
Probably because solo players make the most sense in an MMO. It's a persistent world, the vast majority of players are going to be solo the vast majority of the time, unless you expect them never to login unless someone they can group with is on. That is unrealistic and makes no sense. Most people are independent in real life and prefer to be indepdent in virtual worlds. That's what MMO's are: virtual worlds. I life in real life as well but I do not need 19 other players to have my breakfast, study for a test, or visit the zoo. Nonetheless, I exist, and they exist, and sometimes we cross paths and affect each other, which is what makes the world alive.
This weird implication that MMO = being in a group of 5 people 24/7 makes no sense from the standpoint of human nature, development resources, or world persistence. An MMO where people only play when they are grouped will not give you a virtual world, it will give you a lobby with instances, which is exactly what the later MMO's (WoW and on) are right now. They're not MMO's, they're lobby games with an MMO world they do not care for. If that's what you are looking for, we, people who want a virtual world, can tell you to go play a game where you can just collect your group in advance and do something for <40 people.
We can, on the other hand, continue to enjoy a massive world, which has thousands in it, and doesn't consist of forced, pre-scheduled groups, but of little interactions between players ranging from active trade to random player encounters. The moment you generated an MMO full of forced group encounters where you have to find XX people using specs Y and Z to beat it and it gives you the best loot, and it's instanced, you're not playing an MMO anymore, you have yourself a lobby multiplayer game.
So let me ask you. WTF are you lobby multiplayer gamers doing in my MMO if you just want pre-scripted instanced encounters? Go play some World of Tanks or something. Or Diablo III.
Referring to the part in red.
If your looking at group content in that manner, its kinda pointless to even explain it to you.
Nobody groups 24/7, that is just nonsense and not a very good strawman....
If your main "grouping" experience comes from games like WoW, then you are sadly misleaded on what grouping in "forced" group MMOs works. Adalwulf mentionned EVE Online, and you should definitively check it out. I doubt you'd like it, but it's a perfect example of players getting together, forming long-term groups (turning into Clans) and achieving a lot of amazing things.
Do you even read what I write? I've been playing MMORPGs since UO, and MUDs before, and my experience, be it grouping or not, is definitely not limited to WoW and its clones.
I've seen games like UO or AC1 (one sandbox, one more "theme parkish"), which aren't group centric at all, but had communities much better than any "forced grouping" EQ clone. Forced grouping, no matter how it's done, does NOT make better communities. Forced "socialisation" is a recipe for bad communities.
And sorry, but in EvE, grouping is not forced. Forced grouping doesn't mean being in a guild/clan. Forced grouping means reaching a point where you can't progress anymore without grouping. See previous posts about the mentalities it breeds, and the inevitable elitism resulting of it.
My main point remains "do NOT blame "soloers" for problems that don't come from them, but from the game's design".
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
MMOs are not for solo players, the same people that probably try and play PnP games solo. Not designed for it for a reason.
No matter what anyone says I don't give a shit if somone who likes to solo is forced to group in a MMO, 99% of the content should be grouping. It shouldn't be like it is now where 99% is soloable and you can level faster solo than in a group. If you want to solo play a single player game and don't give me that crap about online socialization because if you want to solo you sure don't want to socialize in the first place.
And i don't give a shit what you think how much of the content should be grouping. I *like* choices and will vote with my wallet. We will see who has more "votes" and which direction devs are going to go.
Holololol
Hows your wallet doing keeping SWTOR afloat?
I am NOT playing that game. It is not fun for me.
OTOH, i vote my dollars to WOW and Diablo 3 .. and they are doing just fine.
To me, being a "solo'er" has nothing to do with doing group content. Look at hardcore raiders. Many of them (not all of course) dedicate themselves to a full group oriented activity, but they don't care for the team. They care about winning and getting the loot and reward for themselves. Ninjas are complete proof of this.
Allow me to use a comparsion:
- While doing Rifts an Dynamic Events, which obviously group oriented, most people don't talk or even try to socialize. Nobody says hello, thank you, goodbey. Very little difference between humans and npc's.
- Now imagine this solo quest where you have to kill 5 rats ( :P ). 2 players have to do this one, but they need the rats to respawn so both can complete it. So, the 2 players decide go together and have conversation while waiting for the rats to respawn and both turn it in together. See, while the content is solo based, the 2 players actually socialized and grouped up.
Now, i know this is very, very rare, but it's just an example to show that soloing can be far more than what we think. This to me is the problem, the lack of "get to know each other" in mmo's. I understand many want their space, which i too myself desire, but when that personal space is on all the time, there's no room for community building. This to me is true soloing and why i hate it.
How can this be improved? No clear answer, but many things contribute to this.
Why does this need to be improved? If players are having fun doing raid content without saying "hi", who are you to say that is not how the game should be?
It is quite obvious that people like to kill stuff together, and fewer want to socialize in the progress. So what if i go into a dungeon, kill some stuff with stranger and never talk to them? You say they are like NPCs .. true .. but they play better than normal NPCs, and there are more variety of them. May be that is the draw?
Do you know how many play Diablo MP? Most of the games have very little chat. Ditto with WOW LFD/LFR. I like it. I am not in the game to make friends. I have enough friends. I just want to get a group and hack-n-slash. If i want to chat, i go to my guild chat, or MSN.
Because the MMO's until now don't make it a better gameplay to team up.
Let's see, you get working alone against the other, first me then the rest, they will tag my mob before me etc.....
Or you get to be in a group against the others, first me or us, they will tag our mob, quick...
Or you get GW2 where you get to work toghether either in a group or not, working with all people around anyway toward the goal of that place and time, isn't a nobrainer ?
And after everybody get a taste of that, i'm pretty sure that almost nobody will solo anymore,. Working with all people around with our without a group.
when did MMORPGs become dominated by solo content? oh you're talking about leveling? who gives a crap, thats like the entrances quest to the REAL game ... the endgame. try to be successful in any MMO right now at the endgame solo.
group for dungeon
group for hardcore modes
group for raids
group for PVP
That really is the dumbest part of all.
Now the MMO teaches you to solo while you level up, it is faster and easier. Then when you hit the endgame with no clue about group dynamics there are no soloendgame at all.
To provide content like that all the way up and actually reward people for running soloquests fast and then screw them over is totally retarded, and almost all games do it.
While I prefer group content and as I said before think social stuff should be rewarded probably instead of punished I also think that soloers should have at least some endgame.
I also think that it is time to do something about the 80 or so levels all MMOs have by now, they make finding groups harder. There is no need for having more than 20 or 25 levels (leveling up should take the same time as in a game with 80 levels though) anyways, and since you would jump level less often then it would actually be worth getting dungeon gear for lower level than the maximum.
Levels divide the playerbase, and more levels divide themmore than fewer.
The consensus is selfishness and elitism, of course not all soloers are, but in general they are anti-social, so they solo.
Even the group content, like in Aion, players simply level up high enough to solo it.
I don´t think so.
Many people just solo because it is faster, the real selfish people hang in groups but let the others do most work only to ninja and log out as soon as what they want drops.
A lot of people just follow the carrot and just a few years ago dungeons were the fastest way to level up. Now it is running fast soloquests.
If your main "grouping" experience comes from games like WoW, then you are sadly misleaded on what grouping in "forced" group MMOs works. Adalwulf mentionned EVE Online, and you should definitively check it out. I doubt you'd like it, but it's a perfect example of players getting together, forming long-term groups (turning into Clans) and achieving a lot of amazing things.
Do you even read what I write? I've been playing MMORPGs since UO, and MUDs before, and my experience, be it grouping or not, is definitely not limited to WoW and its clones.
I've seen games like UO or AC1 (one sandbox, one more "theme parkish"), which aren't group centric at all, but had communities much better than any "forced grouping" EQ clone. Forced grouping, no matter how it's done, does NOT make better communities. Forced "socialisation" is a recipe for bad communities.
And sorry, but in EvE, grouping is not forced. Forced grouping doesn't mean being in a guild/clan. Forced grouping means reaching a point where you can't progress anymore without grouping. See previous posts about the mentalities it breeds, and the inevitable elitism resulting of it.
My main point remains "do NOT blame "soloers" for problems that don't come from them, but from the game's design".
I do read what you write, and that's exactly why my post came out that way. You're using WoW players as your arguments and considering it's the very game that began catering to solo players, it's hardly the best example to talk about how grouping makes people elitist.
Games like UO are a lot more group-centric than you claim, but they also offer alternative activities that any players, group or solo, can partake in. The thing with these kinds of games was, and still is, that you are part of the world, a much larger group where the actions of groups and individuals matters. If I were to use an analogy, it's a bit like the internet. We're all part of a larger community, but actions of both groups and individuals can have an impact on the internet, just like the actions groups and individuals in UO or EVE could have an impact on their respective games. Here's a wonderful story from EVE, just 2 guys 1 Ponzi Scheme. But in the end, you're still part of that much larger group and your actions will determine how other players view you (even more so if the game is a FFA PvP with full loot). That is why these MMOs had a much better community.
The notion of "forced grouping" is silly to begin with, but something solo players have began to twist around thinking they'd have to be 24/7 with other players doing heroics. That's ridiculous, and definitively not what grouping used to be (and still is in games like EVE).
But yes, soloers are the problems. WAR, AOC, AION, Rift, SWTOR, and all the other clones that are attempting to imitate WoW's success, they're all solo-centric MMORPGs. Because that's what these players want.
Edit: I know that EVE is not a forced grouping MMORPG. I had put quotation marks around "forced" because I dislike the notion (as pointed above) but it's the best word to use for some players to understand sadly. Like with "hardcore" or any other words that's been twisted around times and times again to mean something entirely different from it's original intended purpose.
The consensus is selfishness and elitism, of course not all soloers are, but in general they are anti-social, so they solo.
Even the group content, like in Aion, players simply level up high enough to solo it.
I don´t think so.
Many people just solo because it is faster, the real selfish people hang in groups but let the others do most work only to ninja and log out as soon as what they want drops.
A lot of people just follow the carrot and just a few years ago dungeons were the fastest way to level up. Now it is running fast soloquests.
True, from a PvE point of view.
I guess Im arguing the wrong thing here, because Im looking at this from a PvP point of view, but I do think every MMO should have nice dungeons for the groupers.
In PvP a group can do so much more than solo, even a small group, and far more fun.... imo.
This is exactly the issue, and I'd argue that 80% might actually be a little too low and that the real number would be around 95%, simply because I can count group-oriented MMORPG on my hands.
I don't mind solo players, but an MMORPG's focus should not be on those solo players...because it's an MMORPG. His whole article is plastered with "If-s" and "Maybe-s". If you want to socialize you can, but there's no need to. If you want to group you can, but there's no need to. It's ridiculous, and definitively hasn't changed my mind that if players want to play everything solo, than they should go play Single Player RPGs. However the industry currently catters to those people, as oppose to the old industry of 10 years ago. An MMORPG should be primarily group-oriented but still give the possibility of soloing to some extent (because it's true that we don't have the best schedule in the world for gaming) and not the opposite around, in other words solo-oriented with the possibility of grouping.
The problem is simple...
If you center your game on grouping, with occasional solo content, you will force people to group to progress. And players don't like to be forced into things, specially when it doesn't fit their schedule to play the game. Nothing is worse than having to sit 30 minutes in a LFG channel before being able to continue to progress your character viably.
But if your game has soloing as a viable alternative to progress from noob to max, but also with group content, everybody can chose whatever playstyle they prefer, and even those who prefer grouping can still do the solo stuff while waiting for their group to form up.
It's easy to understand which version give the most freedom to the player, and why most developers use that model.
Another negative consequence of forced grouping I've noticed is that it breeds elitism. If people are forced to group to reach some essential goals for their character progression, they will start lack tolerance towards the "lesser" players and avoid/discriminate them, when they don't also insult them of course... we've seen that in EQ, in DAoC's leveling, in WoW's end game of course, and even in games like LOTRO which also have raid centric end games. Some of the best MMORPG communities I've been part of were in games where grouping was totally optional (UO and AC1 for instance), because people were doing the group content for fun, and therefore had a way more relaxed approach to it. As a side note, that's one of the reasons why I'm looking forward to GW2.
If the game's focus was solo play (as is for most MMOs nowadays), then the players will grow used to solo'ing and continue to expect the content to be solo-able from Lv.1 to max. This is exactly why you see all the time content being nerfed (and even classes, because it's a lot easier to nerf a class than to use teamwork to defeat a better player right?). It's absolutely ridiculous, and it is exactly what breeds "elitism", it's not grouping.
In MMORPGs that focuses on solo and individual success, elitism is rampant. If you group in those MMOs with other players, you will be ridiculed for not choosing the "best build" and be left out, because you would be holding said "group" back (in Raids or PvP Arena for example). And if you're not doing your "job" right, you will be trash talked for being horrible and then left out. Why? Because Solo MMORPGs have turned other players into tools to further your character's advancement. They are nothing more than that, temporary tools you have to deal with to reach max level. Relationship with these players are irrelevant as they will be forgotten immediatly or left out as soon as the raid or PvP match is over, and even more so if they didn't pick the idea build or class that will allow you to maximize your character advancement. That is elitism.
(Forced) Grouping requires that players know how to socialize and show a certain amount of maturity, and bad players will be cut out of your groups. Why? Because these groups become long-term groups and friends, and will rely on each others to fulfill various tasks and create a fun environment/mood. If a player's bad behavior is ruining the fun for others, he will be cut out. The joy of grouping isn't to continuously kill monsters for long period of times, but also act as a social activity where players will develop bonds that will last even beyond the game. That is not elitism.
I read "rely on" and stopped reading.
"Good, honorable gamers will continue to fit the bill for the poor and lower classed people. It's just a sign of the times." ~ Anonymous. Lakexeno.com
I've noticed a trend -- and it may not be accurate, which is why I'm mentioning it was just a trend -- that the pvp-minded players are also the ones who seem to like forced grouping the most (or grouping, or suggested grouping...whatever term you prefer, its not meant to be insulting). I don't like pvp a lot at all. I like to solo things.
But as a player on Aion's 'new' server, I also have done a metric ton of group quests -- I didn't, as others said before, just level up higher and do it alone. I've had some decent groups, some great groups, and some really terrible groups (and even one group that was game-terrible, but too fun to leave. It was a trainwreck in the making.) I did a ton of group quests in WoW, from Burning Crusade to Cataclysm and I will do so again in Pandaria. I'll do dungeons and raids...and I'll solo old dungeons for fun and practice.
I also don't get all elitst on people when I'm in a group which is in direct contradiction to the blanket generalizations made about WoW players a page or two ago and how we're all elitists because we like to solo. I liked to solo in DDO, and despite having some good groups (primarily in the 'raid' style dungeons, TS, VoN, RR, Necro) I preferred to solo/solo with henchmen because I liked the challenge of it. I'll group if it sounds fun. If someone needs help, too. But the thought of 'having' to group as soon as I log on is just...well, tiring.
Then someone else called the 24/7 group mentality a strawman. Well, if you don't want us playing solo, and you're not always in a group...what are you doing all those other hours? I daresay if you're not in a group, you're soloing. It's two discrete states. I don't see how it's a strawman. If I've overlooked something, please tell me - I'm always open to new considerations.
Finally, someone said that solo players should never expect to see group content, and the best rewards should only be for groups. I think this is terrible, myself. Give me the option of grouping or using henchmen/NPC's. I won't always solo it, but the option remains there if I want it. Tune it to be hard but doable. I feel like a lot of people are young enough that they haven't envisioned a day where all their 'friends' are a very small number, most/all of whom won't even play the game they enjoy. Online friends are nice, but their lives are unpredictable also and you never know if they're going to really, truly be there until they actually show up for content - a problem RL friends don't have as much.
In closing, people know that this genre arose from pnp games...don't tell me you haven't ever played/ran a solo adventure for your friends and tossed in a couple NPC's to aid them. I guess that's not something done as commonly anymore, what with the nature of the changes that descended with 3rd edition...but I know it was really common back in the late 80's and into the 90's, and likely before that. How good would the Dungeon of Dread have been for example, if right after 'Turn to Page 3' it said 'You need 5 other people to buy this book before you continue.'?
when did MMORPGs become dominated by solo content? oh you're talking about leveling? who gives a crap, thats like the entrances quest to the REAL game ... the endgame. try to be successful in any MMO right now at the endgame solo.
group for dungeon
group for hardcore modes
group for raids
group for PVP
[mod edit]
If only you new; endgame is the biggest excuse for poor design in MMOs, If you want longevity and real community to develop in games then you need time to do this.
The ability to achieve in MMOs should be available to solo or group gameplay , some people like to fight solo but craft and develop contacts in world through the multi player aspects . Oh wait most MMOs these days just have combat and nothing else to offer other than completion in a couple of months.
Maybe thats what should be focused on , the fact that most MMOs dont qualify just because thy offer only combat!!
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Probably because solo players make the most sense in an MMO. It's a persistent world, the vast majority of players are going to be solo the vast majority of the time, unless you expect them never to login unless someone they can group with is on. That is unrealistic and makes no sense. Most people are independent in real life and prefer to be indepdent in virtual worlds. That's what MMO's are: virtual worlds. I life in real life as well but I do not need 19 other players to have my breakfast, study for a test, or visit the zoo. Nonetheless, I exist, and they exist, and sometimes we cross paths and affect each other, which is what makes the world alive.
This weird implication that MMO = being in a group of 5 people 24/7 makes no sense from the standpoint of human nature, development resources, or world persistence. An MMO where people only play when they are grouped will not give you a virtual world, it will give you a lobby with instances, which is exactly what the later MMO's (WoW and on) are right now. They're not MMO's, they're lobby games with an MMO world they do not care for. If that's what you are looking for, we, people who want a virtual world, can tell you to go play a game where you can just collect your group in advance and do something for <40 people.
We can, on the other hand, continue to enjoy a massive world, which has thousands in it, and doesn't consist of forced, pre-scheduled groups, but of little interactions between players ranging from active trade to random player encounters. The moment you generated an MMO full of forced group encounters where you have to find XX people using specs Y and Z to beat it and it gives you the best loot, and it's instanced, you're not playing an MMO anymore, you have yourself a lobby multiplayer game.
So let me ask you. WTF are you lobby multiplayer gamers doing in my MMO if you just want pre-scripted instanced encounters? Go play some World of Tanks or something. Or Diablo III.
A lot of the problem with this is that the amount of ways players can come accross and effect each other has gone down.
Mana and health bars (or whatever other resources) in current MMOs fill up MUCH FASTER then older MMOs. The time spent waiting for your health to come back so you could pull some more used to be time spent socializing. Now players expect this rate of regen for efficiency and complain if it is too slow and if it is not "fixed" they quit.
There is less interdependance. Older games had dedicated crafters able to dish out amazing things. Buffs and summons that were so powerful that players tipped well for them or had friends help with them. Now days we have items like the hearthstone is WoW that give everyone access to these things without player interaction.
Auction houses while very convienient are also sapping away from player interaction. Garage Sales are more personal but less effective and a middle ground is a well maintained player store.
Lots of people blame the players when the developers of these games have stripped out the features that make a social game actually social.
I want more player interactiveity to be encouraged. Not forced. Encouraged.
I solo most of the time simply because I do not want to depend on others to be able to play the game, when I can sit down and play it. I'm ok with the end content requiring it, but I usually don't stick around once I hit end cap...or I'll roll an alt and start over.
Comments
And you have not even the start of a clue about what I like in games. I've most likely been further in WoW raiding than many here, which permits me to talk about it in an informed way too. I've played it for 7 years, it's a good game, but I know the weaknesses of the model too. I'm not one of those fans who only see positives in every game he plays.
Being able to either solo or group as you wish depending on your mood has NOTHING to do with EvE or Mortal Online (which is a crap game, I bought the collector back then, wasted money). AC1 did it too, and it was not a pure sandbox at all, and GW2 is doing it again (which makes your last sentence obviously wrong, of course).
Not all MMORPGs have to be "EQ" clones with a gear carrot based end game. Only people who never knew anything else can believe is the only viable MMORPG model. And of course, soloers are the easy target to blame when it comes to the obvious weaknesses of that model... it's called a scapegoat I think.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
can your provide an example of how a game mechanic can enhance social play in a way you desire.
The concern I have is that normally social activity doesnt need any game mechanic to happen if people want to be social they will be social. So it implies that people DONT want to be social but a mechanic could make them so. I am sure this is not what you mean but this is my baseline understanding at the moment.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
You are right to say that Elitism starts as soon as one attempts to participate in group activities, but that is not because grouping is bad, but because players have grown used to solo content and not having to interact with other players to achieve something. They solo everything. So once they eventually get down to grouping for Raids and such, they will view other players as tools, because that's what they are. Each and everyone of them view each others as tools for further their own character advancement. The advancement of other players is completely irrelevant so long as you can keep going up.
Grouping, to these players is a nuisance, and they will trash talk anyone that slows them down. That is not because grouping is bad, that is because they have grown used to being catered with rewards of all sorts that only them will have access to for soloing, they have become used to being the "only player". Interaction with other players will only slow them down in their progression.
But now I get why you think that grouping is bad. WoW appears to be your main example, but WoW is exactly the type of game I'm talking about. WoW allows players to solo for a large part of the game, and rewards them continuously for it. These solo players have become elitist and once they reach the point where they need to group for those heroics, they just see anyone else as tools slowing him down. This is exactly what I've been talking about and why this industry is in such a bad state.
If your main "grouping" experience comes from games like WoW, then you are sadly misleaded on what grouping in "forced" group MMOs works. Adalwulf mentionned EVE Online, and you should definitively check it out. I doubt you'd like it, but it's a perfect example of players getting together, forming long-term groups (turning into Clans) and achieving a lot of amazing things.
To be clear, I am not a raider, never have been. I only play MMOs with good PvP, so I am not with the grouper camp or the solo camp, Im wth the PvPers.
In GW2 the content up to end game, like DE's are still centered on groups, your just not forced to be in the same group. The end game content is centered on group efforts. The PvP is the same way.
So Im a bit confused, games like GW2 are giving you just what you wanted right? Or does GW2 need to be MORE solo friendly?
Well said!
Damn I wish I could write this well, my point always seems to get lost, thank you!
Probably because solo players make the most sense in an MMO. It's a persistent world, the vast majority of players are going to be solo the vast majority of the time, unless you expect them never to login unless someone they can group with is on. That is unrealistic and makes no sense. Most people are independent in real life and prefer to be indepdent in virtual worlds. That's what MMO's are: virtual worlds. I life in real life as well but I do not need 19 other players to have my breakfast, study for a test, or visit the zoo. Nonetheless, I exist, and they exist, and sometimes we cross paths and affect each other, which is what makes the world alive.
This weird implication that MMO = being in a group of 5 people 24/7 makes no sense from the standpoint of human nature, development resources, or world persistence. An MMO where people only play when they are grouped will not give you a virtual world, it will give you a lobby with instances, which is exactly what the later MMO's (WoW and on) are right now. They're not MMO's, they're lobby games with an MMO world they do not care for. If that's what you are looking for, we, people who want a virtual world, can tell you to go play a game where you can just collect your group in advance and do something for <40 people.
We can, on the other hand, continue to enjoy a massive world, which has thousands in it, and doesn't consist of forced, pre-scheduled groups, but of little interactions between players ranging from active trade to random player encounters. The moment you generated an MMO full of forced group encounters where you have to find XX people using specs Y and Z to beat it and it gives you the best loot, and it's instanced, you're not playing an MMO anymore, you have yourself a lobby multiplayer game.
So let me ask you. WTF are you lobby multiplayer gamers doing in my MMO if you just want pre-scripted instanced encounters? Go play some World of Tanks or something. Or Diablo III.
You got it, but didn't understand it.
Forced grouping is a game mechanic attempting to force people to be social in order to gain the "reward carrot", something which obviously doesn't work well and only breeds elitism and poor quality communities where people only use each other to get to the reward. I'm not saying all people act that way, of course, but it only takes a couple of bad apples to ruin the whole basket.
Games which make people go together naturally, without forcing them, have always had better communities than EQ/WoW clones. The WoW community is legendary for being among the worse of the MMORPG industry. The game itself can be fun, and it is indeed since it's well done, the core of that group centric end game holds the seeds for the crappy community that game has. LOTRO is among the very few theme parks which have... let's say a "higher than average" community, because the game offers a ton of things to do beside the inevitable group/raid gear centric end game.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I like playing with other people, I just hate people controlling how i want to have fun. When playing tabletop games, there's nothing worse than being locked into a party (or a campaign) with someone who you hate playing with.
Referring to the part in red.
If your looking at group content in that manner, its kinda pointless to even explain it to you.
Nobody groups 24/7, that is just nonsense and not a very good strawman....
Do you even read what I write? I've been playing MMORPGs since UO, and MUDs before, and my experience, be it grouping or not, is definitely not limited to WoW and its clones.
I've seen games like UO or AC1 (one sandbox, one more "theme parkish"), which aren't group centric at all, but had communities much better than any "forced grouping" EQ clone. Forced grouping, no matter how it's done, does NOT make better communities. Forced "socialisation" is a recipe for bad communities.
And sorry, but in EvE, grouping is not forced. Forced grouping doesn't mean being in a guild/clan. Forced grouping means reaching a point where you can't progress anymore without grouping. See previous posts about the mentalities it breeds, and the inevitable elitism resulting of it.
My main point remains "do NOT blame "soloers" for problems that don't come from them, but from the game's design".
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I think the question people should be asking is not why solo players play MMO's, but why many solo players continue to solo in MMO's.
I am NOT playing that game. It is not fun for me.
OTOH, i vote my dollars to WOW and Diablo 3 .. and they are doing just fine.
Very nice way to put it
Your previous post is pretty good too btw.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Why does this need to be improved? If players are having fun doing raid content without saying "hi", who are you to say that is not how the game should be?
It is quite obvious that people like to kill stuff together, and fewer want to socialize in the progress. So what if i go into a dungeon, kill some stuff with stranger and never talk to them? You say they are like NPCs .. true .. but they play better than normal NPCs, and there are more variety of them. May be that is the draw?
Do you know how many play Diablo MP? Most of the games have very little chat. Ditto with WOW LFD/LFR. I like it. I am not in the game to make friends. I have enough friends. I just want to get a group and hack-n-slash. If i want to chat, i go to my guild chat, or MSN.
The consensus is selfishness and elitism, of course not all soloers are, but in general they are anti-social, so they solo.
Even the group content, like in Aion, players simply level up high enough to solo it.
Because the MMO's until now don't make it a better gameplay to team up.
Let's see, you get working alone against the other, first me then the rest, they will tag my mob before me etc.....
Or you get to be in a group against the others, first me or us, they will tag our mob, quick...
Or you get GW2 where you get to work toghether either in a group or not, working with all people around anyway toward the goal of that place and time, isn't a nobrainer ?
And after everybody get a taste of that, i'm pretty sure that almost nobody will solo anymore,. Working with all people around with our without a group.
Diablow 3, it sucks ...
That really is the dumbest part of all.
Now the MMO teaches you to solo while you level up, it is faster and easier. Then when you hit the endgame with no clue about group dynamics there are no soloendgame at all.
To provide content like that all the way up and actually reward people for running soloquests fast and then screw them over is totally retarded, and almost all games do it.
While I prefer group content and as I said before think social stuff should be rewarded probably instead of punished I also think that soloers should have at least some endgame.
I also think that it is time to do something about the 80 or so levels all MMOs have by now, they make finding groups harder. There is no need for having more than 20 or 25 levels (leveling up should take the same time as in a game with 80 levels though) anyways, and since you would jump level less often then it would actually be worth getting dungeon gear for lower level than the maximum.
Levels divide the playerbase, and more levels divide themmore than fewer.
I don´t think so.
Many people just solo because it is faster, the real selfish people hang in groups but let the others do most work only to ninja and log out as soon as what they want drops.
A lot of people just follow the carrot and just a few years ago dungeons were the fastest way to level up. Now it is running fast soloquests.
I do read what you write, and that's exactly why my post came out that way. You're using WoW players as your arguments and considering it's the very game that began catering to solo players, it's hardly the best example to talk about how grouping makes people elitist.
Games like UO are a lot more group-centric than you claim, but they also offer alternative activities that any players, group or solo, can partake in. The thing with these kinds of games was, and still is, that you are part of the world, a much larger group where the actions of groups and individuals matters. If I were to use an analogy, it's a bit like the internet. We're all part of a larger community, but actions of both groups and individuals can have an impact on the internet, just like the actions groups and individuals in UO or EVE could have an impact on their respective games. Here's a wonderful story from EVE, just 2 guys 1 Ponzi Scheme. But in the end, you're still part of that much larger group and your actions will determine how other players view you (even more so if the game is a FFA PvP with full loot). That is why these MMOs had a much better community.
The notion of "forced grouping" is silly to begin with, but something solo players have began to twist around thinking they'd have to be 24/7 with other players doing heroics. That's ridiculous, and definitively not what grouping used to be (and still is in games like EVE).
But yes, soloers are the problems. WAR, AOC, AION, Rift, SWTOR, and all the other clones that are attempting to imitate WoW's success, they're all solo-centric MMORPGs. Because that's what these players want.
Edit: I know that EVE is not a forced grouping MMORPG. I had put quotation marks around "forced" because I dislike the notion (as pointed above) but it's the best word to use for some players to understand sadly. Like with "hardcore" or any other words that's been twisted around times and times again to mean something entirely different from it's original intended purpose.
True, from a PvE point of view.
I guess Im arguing the wrong thing here, because Im looking at this from a PvP point of view, but I do think every MMO should have nice dungeons for the groupers.
In PvP a group can do so much more than solo, even a small group, and far more fun.... imo.
I read "rely on" and stopped reading.
"Good, honorable gamers will continue to fit the bill for the poor and lower classed people. It's just a sign of the times." ~ Anonymous. Lakexeno.com
I've noticed a trend -- and it may not be accurate, which is why I'm mentioning it was just a trend -- that the pvp-minded players are also the ones who seem to like forced grouping the most (or grouping, or suggested grouping...whatever term you prefer, its not meant to be insulting). I don't like pvp a lot at all. I like to solo things.
But as a player on Aion's 'new' server, I also have done a metric ton of group quests -- I didn't, as others said before, just level up higher and do it alone. I've had some decent groups, some great groups, and some really terrible groups (and even one group that was game-terrible, but too fun to leave. It was a trainwreck in the making.) I did a ton of group quests in WoW, from Burning Crusade to Cataclysm and I will do so again in Pandaria. I'll do dungeons and raids...and I'll solo old dungeons for fun and practice.
I also don't get all elitst on people when I'm in a group which is in direct contradiction to the blanket generalizations made about WoW players a page or two ago and how we're all elitists because we like to solo. I liked to solo in DDO, and despite having some good groups (primarily in the 'raid' style dungeons, TS, VoN, RR, Necro) I preferred to solo/solo with henchmen because I liked the challenge of it. I'll group if it sounds fun. If someone needs help, too. But the thought of 'having' to group as soon as I log on is just...well, tiring.
Then someone else called the 24/7 group mentality a strawman. Well, if you don't want us playing solo, and you're not always in a group...what are you doing all those other hours? I daresay if you're not in a group, you're soloing. It's two discrete states. I don't see how it's a strawman. If I've overlooked something, please tell me - I'm always open to new considerations.
Finally, someone said that solo players should never expect to see group content, and the best rewards should only be for groups. I think this is terrible, myself. Give me the option of grouping or using henchmen/NPC's. I won't always solo it, but the option remains there if I want it. Tune it to be hard but doable. I feel like a lot of people are young enough that they haven't envisioned a day where all their 'friends' are a very small number, most/all of whom won't even play the game they enjoy. Online friends are nice, but their lives are unpredictable also and you never know if they're going to really, truly be there until they actually show up for content - a problem RL friends don't have as much.
In closing, people know that this genre arose from pnp games...don't tell me you haven't ever played/ran a solo adventure for your friends and tossed in a couple NPC's to aid them. I guess that's not something done as commonly anymore, what with the nature of the changes that descended with 3rd edition...but I know it was really common back in the late 80's and into the 90's, and likely before that. How good would the Dungeon of Dread have been for example, if right after 'Turn to Page 3' it said 'You need 5 other people to buy this book before you continue.'?
If only you new; endgame is the biggest excuse for poor design in MMOs, If you want longevity and real community to develop in games then you need time to do this.
The ability to achieve in MMOs should be available to solo or group gameplay , some people like to fight solo but craft and develop contacts in world through the multi player aspects . Oh wait most MMOs these days just have combat and nothing else to offer other than completion in a couple of months.
Maybe thats what should be focused on , the fact that most MMOs dont qualify just because thy offer only combat!!
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
A lot of the problem with this is that the amount of ways players can come accross and effect each other has gone down.
Mana and health bars (or whatever other resources) in current MMOs fill up MUCH FASTER then older MMOs. The time spent waiting for your health to come back so you could pull some more used to be time spent socializing. Now players expect this rate of regen for efficiency and complain if it is too slow and if it is not "fixed" they quit.
There is less interdependance. Older games had dedicated crafters able to dish out amazing things. Buffs and summons that were so powerful that players tipped well for them or had friends help with them. Now days we have items like the hearthstone is WoW that give everyone access to these things without player interaction.
Auction houses while very convienient are also sapping away from player interaction. Garage Sales are more personal but less effective and a middle ground is a well maintained player store.
Lots of people blame the players when the developers of these games have stripped out the features that make a social game actually social.
I want more player interactiveity to be encouraged. Not forced. Encouraged.
I solo most of the time simply because I do not want to depend on others to be able to play the game, when I can sit down and play it. I'm ok with the end content requiring it, but I usually don't stick around once I hit end cap...or I'll roll an alt and start over.