I myself hope this RMAH does fail because I sure don't want this to be the next gaming standard. And everyone was against my idea of upping the cost of a true MMO to $50.
As in $50/month subscription?
Yes! Because if you want a true MMO to be successful you need to target the true MMO players that will pay $50 sub to play. I know it is cheaper than what has been going on these few years with jumping from game to game and buying a new game every month because the last one failed or was already completed.
I agree. Maybe not necessarily @ $50, but there is something to be said for different prices for different things. Is your thinking that a higher price would lead to more money for development, or that a higher price would serve as a filter on the player population, or something else?
@$50 a month, you could get some seriously active DEV teams providing weekly content updates... maybe, or just make some people really rich lol.
Don't make the game so easy that content can be done in a week.
I just get a huge laugh that all these people are ringing there hands...scratching their heads....crying....cheering...over buying or selling pixels for REAL MONEY. What a scam!
Wouldn't gaming capitalists be more appropriate? Then again I suppose that doesn't have the same sting to it does it?
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
OMG...can someone please tell me why the hell anyone cares about balance in a single player game? Why all the uproar over some non-issue? Seriously...I am still waiting to hear why people are so upset.
Most of the game takes place in singleplayer, but the multilpayer element of a free open market means that multiplayer influences bleed into the singleplayer game.
It'd be like saying "Who cares if an exploit allows you to complete EVE missions 1000 times a minute?" -- That "singleplayer" portion of EVE contains outputs which influence the "multiplayer" portion of the game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
OMG...can someone please tell me why the hell anyone cares about balance in a single player game? Why all the uproar over some non-issue? Seriously...I am still waiting to hear why people are so upset.
Most of the game takes place in singleplayer, but the multilpayer element of a free open market means that multiplayer influences bleed into the singleplayer game.
It'd be like saying "Who cares if an exploit allows you to complete EVE missions 1000 times a minute?" -- That "singleplayer" portion of EVE contains outputs which influence the "multiplayer" portion of the game.
Except D3 has no multiplayer aspect that is comparable to EVE's multiplayer. Everything is multiplayer in EVE anyways, even missions.
Not in game yet, and I am sure, since this is Blizzard we're talking about, there will be PvP gear you'll need to get. You probably have to farm for it via PvP like you do in WoW. So I wouldn't be so concerned right now.
Also, still do not get this need to buy items. All you do is say it is bad for game balance. Its a single player game with co-op optional game play. You control no territory. You own nothing. So why the need to buy items? How does it wreck game balance?
It breaks the natural progression of the game. (Which of course would be a stronger argument if the natural progression of the game wasn't in a sort of clunky spot right now. Act 2 inferno is a massive step-up in difficulty; but that's a separate problem being solved separately.)
The existance of the AH breaks progression even without exploitation influencing the AH (exploits just make it far worse.) A lack of soulbinding causes massive item inflation which makes ridiculous upgrades extremely affordable (breaking what would otherwise be an interesting challenge.)
It's a little like a fresh level 1 WOW character being able to spend 15 gold to buy best-in-slot items for every slot for their character. It would break most of what makes the game interesting (killing harder and harder bosses for better and better loot.)
Could you gimp yourself and not buy those items? Well, yeah, but what allstar marathon runner wants to chop off their own leg just to make running a marathon more challenging?
D3 in particular is like a game where you roll 1-100 over and over and each time you beat your prior best roll that's an upgrade. Only the act of rolling (killing monsters) is actually pretty fun. But then you have this much less interesting activity (the AH) where you're essentially able to immediately buy a 75 roll, which thus results in dramatically fewer upgrades when you're out there doing the fun activity (killing monsters.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The adjective "overseas" is irrelevent to any discussion of the topic.
Even in the absense of any overt farming, the market for any given item is going to be in a constant state of collapse - items are constantly entering the game as people play and leaving the game as they become obsolete by better gear. So stats that cost $1 will cost $0.10 soon and $.01 a little while after that. This is inevitable outcome of supply and demand - there's nothing to stop.
Besides, the entire concept of buying from the auction house is a head-scratcher. The entire game is a gear grind treadmill ... that's ALL it is. Buying gear just raises your threshold of what you would consider a better gear drop, so all you are buying is further nerfing of how often you get a "hey, I've found a better piece of gear!" sensation.
I understand the basic principle, but Blizzard's $1 per auction sets a floor where it's likely it will never get down to 1 cent auctions.
The issue here is that equillibrium price should settle where supply meets demand. Farmers (through the very act) flood the market with an abundence of supply that overwhelms the demand and drops the price very near to the floor. Because these farming organizations move so much product, it becomes a worth while activity...even though their margin is relatively low.
Where this REALLY hurts Blizzard is that it speeds up the maturation process of the game. Instead of someone farming for gear to make it past an encounter or boss.....they just jump on the AH and spend a few bucks to speed up the process of them getting board with the game.
Not in game yet, and I am sure, since this is Blizzard we're talking about, there will be PvP gear you'll need to get. You probably have to farm for it via PvP like you do in WoW. So I wouldn't be so concerned right now.
Also, still do not get this need to buy items. All you do is say it is bad for game balance. Its a single player game with co-op optional game play. You control no territory. You own nothing. So why the need to buy items? How does it wreck game balance?
It breaks the natural progression of the game. (Which of course would be a stronger argument if the natural progression of the game wasn't in a sort of clunky spot right now. Act 2 inferno is a massive step-up in difficulty; but that's a separate problem being solved separately.)
The existance of the AH breaks progression even without exploitation influencing the AH (exploits just make it far worse.) A lack of soulbinding causes massive item inflation which makes ridiculous upgrades extremely affordable (breaking what would otherwise be an interesting challenge.)
It's a little like a fresh level 1 WOW character being able to spend 15 gold to buy best-in-slot items for every slot for their character. It would break most of what makes the game interesting (killing harder and harder bosses for better and better loot.)
Could you gimp yourself and not buy those items? Well, yeah, but what allstar marathon runner wants to chop off their own leg just to make running a marathon more challenging?
D3 in particular is like a game where you roll 1-100 over and over and each time you beat your prior best roll that's an upgrade. Only the act of rolling (killing monsters) is actually pretty fun. But then you have this much less interesting activity (the AH) where you're essentially able to immediately buy a 75 roll, which thus results in dramatically fewer upgrades when you're out there doing the fun activity (killing monsters.)
The AH wouldn't have the allure that it does if it wasn't for the stupid way Blizz has the loot drop. What use is it if you are X level and you kill a boss with a bunch of loot that is dropped is X minus 8 levels. Fricken rediculous. The item dropped should be minimum your level with various chances of higher level drops. I don't mind so much the randomness of everything else but that one thing really bugs me.
I myself hope this RMAH does fail because I sure don't want this to be the next gaming standard. And everyone was against my idea of upping the cost of a true MMO to $50.
As in $50/month subscription?
Yes! Because if you want a true MMO to be successful you need to target the true MMO players that will pay $50 sub to play. I know it is cheaper than what has been going on these few years with jumping from game to game and buying a new game every month because the last one failed or was already completed.
I agree. Maybe not necessarily @ $50, but there is something to be said for different prices for different things. Is your thinking that a higher price would lead to more money for development, or that a higher price would serve as a filter on the player population, or something else?
@$50 a month, you could get some seriously active DEV teams providing weekly content updates... maybe, or just make some people really rich lol.
It would be SUPER lucrative if the same number of players were subscribing @ $50 instead of $15. At $50 a month, 1 subscriber would make up around 3 subscribers worth of revenue @ $15/month. However, I suspect that you'd lose more than 3 subscribers, for every 1 retained....hence you'd actually LOSE revenue overall.
I still want to know how this RMT AH is making the game worst than when unoffical sites did the same thing?
It makes it worse because now it's an integral part of the game, and as such, is highly accessible, highly accepted, and even encouraged.
I mean, if you want an analog, compare a legal drug like alcohol to an illegal drug like heroine.
Alcohol is extremely accepted in American society, even to the point of people who don't drink occasionally being ostracized. It's also extremely accessible...there is usually at least one liquor store in every city block. And society definitely encourages alcohol use through relentless advertisements. As such, alcohol is very much a major part of American culture.
Now look at heroine...people who use it are generally called derogitory terms (junkies) and are seen as criminals and a drain on society. In order to acquire heroine you need to risk your own personal safety by purchasing it from the criminal element. And society actively discourages heroine use by putting users in jail. As such, heroine is viewed as a "fringe" part of American culture.
You can apply this analogy to illegal vs. legal gold selling as well.
"This one size-fits-all approach is a by-product of how Blizzard operates: they're perfectionists who've forged an empire from knowing what gamers enjoy better than gamers themselves." - Evan Lahti - PC Gamer
Couldn't say it better.
Originally posted by Arskaaa "when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
RMAH will make RMT much more common and because of it's avalibility and safety will increase overall RMT in games and I am against that.
...
Why? Isn't anyone that purchases/subsribes to a game already involved in RMT?
Nope. Pure B2P single player game / normal multiplayer or pure P2P mmo give you access to game and only that.
RMT in multiplayer pvp or mmorpg games allow you to gain advantage because you spent more money. Also change game design / concept cause companies want to maximize CS / RMAH sales.
While I am not high-schooler anymore and I have to earn my own living - I am ok with gaining advantage in game through skill or dedication or tactics, etc
and not ok with gaining advantage though spending more $ on uber sword of awensomeness.
So is your problem with just game provided RMT (item shops, etc) or all forms of trade (player 2 player)?. If player to player exchange can occur in the game, RMT will exist. They only way to eliminate RMT (for in-game "stuff") is to make every single attainable item be bind-on-pickup, which would eliminate all trade in the game. Even then there would still be RMT for "services" (boosting, powerlevelling, farming, etc)
OR, you could make the items in the game easily attainable......but that would completely wreck the premise of the game (and MOST modern MMORPGs) considering the game IS all about the gear (and percieved value of such)
Ultima Online (Pre-AoS) was the last MMO I've played where there wasn't a huge black market for RMT. Gold & Items in game were common.....and a means to an end, which was experiencing the game's mechanics & content. In gear focused games, gear IS the end. A higher value is placed on the gear you're wearing than what you actually do in the game. As a result, value for the gear goes up....creating an opportunity for very organized & efficient farming groups to fill a gap or un-met demand in the market.
I still want to know how this RMT AH is making the game worst than when unoffical sites did the same thing?
It isn't. It's just the "normal outrage over anything Blizzard does" you're seeing. Apparently, if Blizzard adds something to their game that..*gasp*...they may make money off of...people get upset.
Now look at heroine...people who use it are generally called derogitory terms (junkies) and are seen as criminals and a drain on society. In order to acquire heroine you need to risk your own personal safety by purchasing it from the criminal element. And society actively discourages heroine use by putting users in jail. As such, heroine is viewed as a "fringe" part of American culture.
Heroin/opiate use was still fringe when it wasn't criminalized.
"This one size-fits-all approach is a by-product of how Blizzard operates: they're perfectionists who've forged an empire from knowing what gamers enjoy better than gamers themselves." - Evan Lahti - PC Gamer
I myself hope this RMAH does fail because I sure don't want this to be the next gaming standard. And everyone was against my idea of upping the cost of a true MMO to $50.
As in $50/month subscription?
Yes! Because if you want a true MMO to be successful you need to target the true MMO players that will pay $50 sub to play. I know it is cheaper than what has been going on these few years with jumping from game to game and buying a new game every month because the last one failed or was already completed.
I agree. Maybe not necessarily @ $50, but there is something to be said for different prices for different things. Is your thinking that a higher price would lead to more money for development, or that a higher price would serve as a filter on the player population, or something else?
@$50 a month, you could get some seriously active DEV teams providing weekly content updates... maybe, or just make some people really rich lol.
It would be SUPER lucrative if the same number of players were subscribing @ $50 instead of $15. At $50 a month, 1 subscriber would make up around 3 subscribers worth of revenue @ $15/month. However, I suspect that you'd lose more than 3 subscribers, for every 1 retained....hence you'd actually LOSE revenue overall.
The reason is quality of quantiy which is how todays games are developed. None of these games retain any real numbers after the first 3 mos so why even try to target those numbers. Make a true MMO and let the true MMO players have a game to play that is more and just quest jumping or PvP. A full virtual world that was the reason MMO came to be. At $50 sub it would make up for the lower population at launch but they would make more money in the long run with few people. Any MMO that doesn't stay at the top for a year + isn't successful anyway no matter how big the launch was.
We need MMOs with content and gameplay to come back to the genre.
"This one size-fits-all approach is a by-product of how Blizzard operates: they're perfectionists who've forged an empire from knowing what gamers enjoy better than gamers themselves." - Evan Lahti - PC Gamer
Couldn't say it better.
I don't understand "Blizzard = communists"
Nodobyd will understand, because everything Blizzard does is the antithesis of communism. This whole thing is Capitalism on steroids. All those out there that want to see what no regulation would look like in a capitalist system, this is what you get. You get a few goldfarming/accountstealing groups drop a ton of supply on the market and push everyone else out of business. There is nothing communistic about this, the only people who would think so are those that have no idea what the word means.
Most of the people here that have complained about the makret prices being so low so fast are just sick that they cant sell their items for insane money.
The market is no broken, its working as intended, you just being greedy trying to sell an item you never EVER technically own for hundreds of dollars, now with prices down around the 5-10 dollars mark its a more respectable and accurate market.
This was not ruined by the farmers, you are free to under cut them, at which point your item sells and not theirs, you make the money and not them, so you need to chill out and just enjoy the game.
RMAH will make RMT much more common and because of it's avalibility and safety will increase overall RMT in games and I am against that.
...
Why? Isn't anyone that purchases/subsribes to a game already involved in RMT?
Nope. Pure B2P single player game / normal multiplayer or pure P2P mmo give you access to game and only that.
RMT in multiplayer pvp or mmorpg games allow you to gain advantage because you spent more money. Also change game design / concept cause companies want to maximize CS / RMAH sales.
While I am not high-schooler anymore and I have to earn my own living - I am ok with gaining advantage in game through skill or dedication or tactics, etc
and not ok with gaining advantage though spending more $ on uber sword of awensomeness.
So is your problem with just game provided RMT (item shops, etc) or all forms of trade (player 2 player)?. If player to player exchange can occur in the game, RMT will exist. They only way to eliminate RMT (for in-game "stuff") is to make every single attainable item be bind-on-pickup, which would eliminate all trade in the game. Even then there would still be RMT for "services" (boosting, powerlevelling, farming, etc)
OR, you could make the items in the game easily attainable......but that would completely wreck the premise of the game (and MOST modern MMORPGs) considering the game IS all about the gear (and percieved value of such)
Ultima Online (Pre-AoS) was the last MMO I've played where there wasn't a huge black market for RMT. Gold & Items in game were common.....and a means to an end, which was experiencing the game's mechanics & content. In gear focused games, gear IS the end. A higher value is placed on the gear you're wearing than what you actually do in the game. As a result, value for the gear goes up....creating an opportunity for very organized & efficient farming groups to fill a gap or un-met demand in the market.
It goes beyond this though. Its not just gear based games that suffer from a RMT black market. Look at GW1. Max stat gear was obtainable easily, literally given away by NPC's, and yet the game had armies of gold sellers and the like. People were buying and selling gold that had literally zero impact on game-play.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
Comments
Don't make the game so easy that content can be done in a week.
Blizzard are pigs (period). Gaming communists.
Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
Does.not.compute.
I just get a huge laugh that all these people are ringing there hands...scratching their heads....crying....cheering...over buying or selling pixels for REAL MONEY. What a scam!
Let's party like it is 1863!
Wouldn't gaming capitalists be more appropriate? Then again I suppose that doesn't have the same sting to it does it?
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Most of the game takes place in singleplayer, but the multilpayer element of a free open market means that multiplayer influences bleed into the singleplayer game.
It'd be like saying "Who cares if an exploit allows you to complete EVE missions 1000 times a minute?" -- That "singleplayer" portion of EVE contains outputs which influence the "multiplayer" portion of the game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Except D3 has no multiplayer aspect that is comparable to EVE's multiplayer. Everything is multiplayer in EVE anyways, even missions.
They say they're bringing out the banhammer and all but yea the market's pretty much gone... I don't even know why blizz bothered with that rmah...
I still want to know how this RMT AH is making the game worst than when unoffical sites did the same thing?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
It breaks the natural progression of the game. (Which of course would be a stronger argument if the natural progression of the game wasn't in a sort of clunky spot right now. Act 2 inferno is a massive step-up in difficulty; but that's a separate problem being solved separately.)
The existance of the AH breaks progression even without exploitation influencing the AH (exploits just make it far worse.) A lack of soulbinding causes massive item inflation which makes ridiculous upgrades extremely affordable (breaking what would otherwise be an interesting challenge.)
It's a little like a fresh level 1 WOW character being able to spend 15 gold to buy best-in-slot items for every slot for their character. It would break most of what makes the game interesting (killing harder and harder bosses for better and better loot.)
Could you gimp yourself and not buy those items? Well, yeah, but what allstar marathon runner wants to chop off their own leg just to make running a marathon more challenging?
D3 in particular is like a game where you roll 1-100 over and over and each time you beat your prior best roll that's an upgrade. Only the act of rolling (killing monsters) is actually pretty fun. But then you have this much less interesting activity (the AH) where you're essentially able to immediately buy a 75 roll, which thus results in dramatically fewer upgrades when you're out there doing the fun activity (killing monsters.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Supply and demand you have to learn to play with the economy.
You have the option to.
A. Buy all the rings and resell at a higher price and risk there are way more to be sold.
B. Ask your friends to help you.
C. Wait for them to be sold and sell yours at higher price.
D. Undercut or sell at same price.
E. Find other items.
I understand the basic principle, but Blizzard's $1 per auction sets a floor where it's likely it will never get down to 1 cent auctions.
The issue here is that equillibrium price should settle where supply meets demand. Farmers (through the very act) flood the market with an abundence of supply that overwhelms the demand and drops the price very near to the floor. Because these farming organizations move so much product, it becomes a worth while activity...even though their margin is relatively low.
Where this REALLY hurts Blizzard is that it speeds up the maturation process of the game. Instead of someone farming for gear to make it past an encounter or boss.....they just jump on the AH and spend a few bucks to speed up the process of them getting board with the game.
The AH wouldn't have the allure that it does if it wasn't for the stupid way Blizz has the loot drop. What use is it if you are X level and you kill a boss with a bunch of loot that is dropped is X minus 8 levels. Fricken rediculous. The item dropped should be minimum your level with various chances of higher level drops. I don't mind so much the randomness of everything else but that one thing really bugs me.
It would be SUPER lucrative if the same number of players were subscribing @ $50 instead of $15. At $50 a month, 1 subscriber would make up around 3 subscribers worth of revenue @ $15/month. However, I suspect that you'd lose more than 3 subscribers, for every 1 retained....hence you'd actually LOSE revenue overall.
It makes it worse because now it's an integral part of the game, and as such, is highly accessible, highly accepted, and even encouraged.
I mean, if you want an analog, compare a legal drug like alcohol to an illegal drug like heroine.
Alcohol is extremely accepted in American society, even to the point of people who don't drink occasionally being ostracized. It's also extremely accessible...there is usually at least one liquor store in every city block. And society definitely encourages alcohol use through relentless advertisements. As such, alcohol is very much a major part of American culture.
Now look at heroine...people who use it are generally called derogitory terms (junkies) and are seen as criminals and a drain on society. In order to acquire heroine you need to risk your own personal safety by purchasing it from the criminal element. And society actively discourages heroine use by putting users in jail. As such, heroine is viewed as a "fringe" part of American culture.
You can apply this analogy to illegal vs. legal gold selling as well.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
What don't you understand?
"This one size-fits-all approach is a by-product of how Blizzard operates: they're perfectionists who've forged an empire from knowing what gamers enjoy better than gamers themselves." - Evan Lahti - PC Gamer
Couldn't say it better.
Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
OR, you could make the items in the game easily attainable......but that would completely wreck the premise of the game (and MOST modern MMORPGs) considering the game IS all about the gear (and percieved value of such)
Ultima Online (Pre-AoS) was the last MMO I've played where there wasn't a huge black market for RMT. Gold & Items in game were common.....and a means to an end, which was experiencing the game's mechanics & content. In gear focused games, gear IS the end. A higher value is placed on the gear you're wearing than what you actually do in the game. As a result, value for the gear goes up....creating an opportunity for very organized & efficient farming groups to fill a gap or un-met demand in the market.
It isn't. It's just the "normal outrage over anything Blizzard does" you're seeing. Apparently, if Blizzard adds something to their game that..*gasp*...they may make money off of...people get upset.
Heroin/opiate use was still fringe when it wasn't criminalized.
I don't understand "Blizzard = communists"
The reason is quality of quantiy which is how todays games are developed. None of these games retain any real numbers after the first 3 mos so why even try to target those numbers. Make a true MMO and let the true MMO players have a game to play that is more and just quest jumping or PvP. A full virtual world that was the reason MMO came to be. At $50 sub it would make up for the lower population at launch but they would make more money in the long run with few people. Any MMO that doesn't stay at the top for a year + isn't successful anyway no matter how big the launch was.
We need MMOs with content and gameplay to come back to the genre.
The best and only solution:
Create games without grind for gold and items!
Sometimes the solution to a big problem is so easy but it is like asking people to accept that our world is a sphere and not flat.
Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.
Nodobyd will understand, because everything Blizzard does is the antithesis of communism. This whole thing is Capitalism on steroids. All those out there that want to see what no regulation would look like in a capitalist system, this is what you get. You get a few goldfarming/accountstealing groups drop a ton of supply on the market and push everyone else out of business. There is nothing communistic about this, the only people who would think so are those that have no idea what the word means.
Most of the people here that have complained about the makret prices being so low so fast are just sick that they cant sell their items for insane money.
The market is no broken, its working as intended, you just being greedy trying to sell an item you never EVER technically own for hundreds of dollars, now with prices down around the 5-10 dollars mark its a more respectable and accurate market.
This was not ruined by the farmers, you are free to under cut them, at which point your item sells and not theirs, you make the money and not them, so you need to chill out and just enjoy the game.
It goes beyond this though. Its not just gear based games that suffer from a RMT black market. Look at GW1. Max stat gear was obtainable easily, literally given away by NPC's, and yet the game had armies of gold sellers and the like. People were buying and selling gold that had literally zero impact on game-play.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.