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TSW Needs Levels
SuperXero89
Member UncommonPosts: 2,551
Am I the only one that feels this way? Progression is fairly standard for a themepark title despite your not advancing in level every time your character becomes more powerful. Seeing as TSW's character progression system would still work with a traiditonal, level-based progression system, do you feel as if a lack of levels makes the game needlessly complex?
Because there are no levels, I have no way to gauge whether or not I'm strong enough for a certain area, and more often than not, I keep finding myself in over my head by just following the storyline.
Comments
See thats the awesome thing about the secret world, it's a game that does NOT hold your hand, but for people like myself who played games like EQ or SWG to better fit the discription, there were ALOT of areas in those games that you had a hard time gauding yourself, I for one think it's a breath of fresh air! Keep at it bud you'll see the game will open up more and more, maybe try different builds ect, but in no way does the secret world need levels that is a bad thing!
I like getting in over my head and learning my current boundaries. Its a lot more fun to me than just looking at a number by my avatar and saying "I will die if i go over there".
Ive had a few good "oh shiii" moments from wandering into some tough mobs. Instead of saying to myself that I'll comeback when my level matches theirs, I'll check back from time to time and see how I fare. Its a lot more engaging for me. And more fun heh
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
spot on nice response.
There is no way to equate a number to TSW progression. That magic number doesn't exist.
There are plenty of games with levels, if you don't like TSW don't play. The group of people who do like TSW VERY much like the progression system,
TSW uses an indicator to show the relative strenght of any given monster versus yourself: the symbol at the left of the mobs name, and the *color* of that symbol. Note that the red or yellow text for the monster's *name* is NOT a difficulty indicator. A red name indicates a stronger/wider "aggro range" for such mobs.
Symbol Colors: range in a spectrum from green > blue > white > yellow > orange > red. White means "roughly same strength as you are". Green and blue are weaker than you are, and yellow > orange > red are stronger than you are.
The system must have some way of measuring and comparing the relative strength of your character to the mobs though they won't call this your level. But yes, it can be difficult to tell if you are doing content too far above your "level" other than by dying regularly, in which case you need to backtrack to find quests closer in to the zone starting point.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Love that line, might I borrow it some time :P
That right there is the main thing you should look at if that makes any sense, Cooper keep using that line everytime someone says otherwise LOL
Cheers
Oh sure there is. The magic numbers are called AP and SP. and those numbers will be the GearScore of TSW.
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze
That's fine, but you have to look at it from the perspective of an average player. Just as the average consumer won't be interested in the nostalgia value of a black and white television, MMO players raised on post-WoW titles or players who appreciate modern convenience (players like me) probably won't tolerate constantly running into areas having no idea whether or not they're adequately equiped to handle the content.
Lets not kid ourselves. TSW's character progression isn't exactly Darkfall or UO. You even have a WoW-style XP bar. I don't think there would be an issue to giving characters a level every time that bar fills up.
I'm not sure if it's the lack of levels that's throwing me off, the questing system, or "level" scaling between areas.
No no there is not. What level am I if I have 100 bilities and maxed out my 3 gear skills and 2 weapon skills? What level am I if I have 60 abilities and maxed out all 3 gear skills and amd part of 5 weapons?
Yes don't kid yourself if they did that number would be meaningless. You would have people who were "level" 576 and 800, 1029....
I said nothing about LEVELS.. I was refering to progression as did the person i quoted.
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze
The yellow: This shows you do not understand TSW. The XP bar correlates to points you allocate. Not a linear progression. Maybe read up on it some then give it another go.
See thats the awesome thing about the secret world, it's a game that does NOT hold your hand, but for people like myself who played games like EQ or SWG to better fit the discription, there were ALOT of areas in those games that you had a hard time gauding yourself, I for one think it's a breath of fresh air! Keep at it bud you'll see the game will open up more and more, maybe try different builds ect, but in no way does the secret world need levels that is a bad thing!
That's fine, but you have to look at it from the perspective of an average player. Just as the average consumer won't be interested in the nostalgia value of a black and white television, MMO players raised on post-WoW titles or players who appreciate modern convenience (players like me) probably won't tolerate constantly running into areas having no idea whether or not they're adequately equiped to handle the content.
Lets not kid ourselves. TSW's character progression isn't exactly Darkfall or UO. You even have a WoW-style XP bar. I don't think there would be an issue to giving characters a level every time that bar fills up.
From what I understand from your OP, you don't really need levels for your problem: you need a way to con the mobs in relation to your own strength. Another poster in this thread has already given you the solution, a little colored sign next to a mob's name (don't know how this works, just reading what he wrote) that shows whether a mob is roughly the same strength as you, weaker or stronger.
That should help, if that doesn't, juggle with builds or, you know, practice running, there's no shame in running away when you notice that a mob is a helluva lot stronger than you can handle :-DSo there's no limit to the number of times that bar fills up?
Again, TSW is not a sandbox. You can clearly see that progression in TSW follows a linear path; however, players lack a way of relating how strong they are in comparison to the content they are facing. That doesn't work.
Only for the trully bad players that cann't hack it. The ap an sp is more to guage your ability use the equipement you have, and the amount of abilities you can bring to a party (nothig like gear score as your stat-gear is pretty much a small part of the equation of hwo well you do in a instance, a well functioning group can do it with much less gear or abilities thru teamwork.). For the most part the symbol system is there to give you a visual way of gauging the strength of the mob, and is mostly done thru comparing the stats of the character to the mobs in question. The level based system of many games has a much smaller range within which you will be able to succeed in a instance, compared to tsw where a good functioning team can do content that even overgeared players might struggle with comparitively. also aa difficulty rating system is not a level system as one has hard caps that you can not defeat even if you work as a team, while the other can either be defeated thru teamwork of skilled play.
So far, I like it the way it is. I don't want every game out there to play the same way, and I'm willing to see how TSW's system matures over the life of a character. I'm already digging all the options and potential with decks.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
See thats the awesome thing about the secret world, it's a game that does NOT hold your hand, but for people like myself who played games like EQ or SWG to better fit the discription, there were ALOT of areas in those games that you had a hard time gauding yourself, I for one think it's a breath of fresh air! Keep at it bud you'll see the game will open up more and more, maybe try different builds ect, but in no way does the secret world need levels that is a bad thing!
spot on nice response.
There is no way to equate a number to TSW progression. That magic number doesn't exist.
Oh sure there is. The numbers are called AP and SP. and those numbers will be the GearScore of TSW.
No no there is not. What level am I if I have 100 bilities and maxed out my 3 gear skills and 2 weapon skills? What level am I if I have 60 abilities and maxed out all 3 gear skills and amd part of 5 weapons?
I said nothing about LEVELS.. I was refering to progression as did the person i quoted.
I don't know if this is correct, since the number of AP and SP that you have aren't all invested in a vertical way, but also horizontal: you can spread them out over a number of weapons, or you can specialise and increase in 1 weapon's tiers, but I read somewhere that you'd gimp yourself if you'd spend for example all your 20 AP in just 1 weapon. So this horizontal+vertical progression options makes it different from when progression is only measured vertically regarding stats and skills.He do have a point though.
The average MMO player will not find this very fun at all. That is how simple it is. Now part of this is that the average MMO player of today was not part of the hobby back in the days of UO or EQ, part of it is that people tent to put their priotirs in a different order as they grow up.
And let's not pretend the system in this game is anything more then it is... Numbers... It would be cake to put a Level system in, a metric representation of your advancment. It would not fill much purpoes beyond familarity but it is not as hadr as some people like to make it out to be. But i think that a small option that you can tick/untick for a more graphical display of what area is "safe" or not would go a long way to smooth the transition for the new crowd.
Me i am glad as long as ICP dont come ganking my arse and steal all my reagents.
This have been a good conversation
as stated a few posts above this.
There is a con system in place, it is the symbol next to the NPC's name. It goes from Green->Blue->White->Yellow->Red.
Now, I don't have any real hard data, but that system seems to be judged off:
a. The average QL of the weapons/talisman you have equipped.
b. The number of SP you have in weapon & talisman skills.
See thats the awesome thing about the secret world, it's a game that does NOT hold your hand, but for people like myself who played games like EQ or SWG to better fit the discription, there were ALOT of areas in those games that you had a hard time gauding yourself, I for one think it's a breath of fresh air! Keep at it bud you'll see the game will open up more and more, maybe try different builds ect, but in no way does the secret world need levels that is a bad thing!
That's fine, but you have to look at it from the perspective of an average player. Just as the average consumer won't be interested in the nostalgia value of a black and white television, MMO players raised on post-WoW titles or players who appreciate modern convenience (players like me) probably won't tolerate constantly running into areas having no idea whether or not they're adequately equiped to handle the content.
Lets not kid ourselves. TSW's character progression isn't exactly Darkfall or UO. You even have a WoW-style XP bar. I don't think there would be an issue to giving characters a level every time that bar fills up.
I'm not sure if it's the lack of levels that's throwing me off, the questing system, or "level" scaling between areas.
I understand your vibe bro, but see.... thats why GW2 is coming out! For people like you who fiend for hand-holding, googly-eyed easy mode! Whats great about TSW is that is offers you that level of challenge while giving you the level of e-peen driven pvp that is what all post-WoW mmo'ers seek! For me who didnt fall for the WoW bait and focused on anarchy and eve while briefly indulging in the many mindless mmos to come out between anarchy and tsw, i enjoy suprises, enjoy getting happy/mad/thrilled/irritated/overjoyed/challenged, this game does all of it... people sit here and bitch about the games animations... its jumping... but fail to realize the gzmes amaxing art firection and limitations given its setting... i take comfort in the community that plays and loves the game... it ensures the notion that GW2 is a sponge that will soak up the sour and sulln community of WoW and post-WoW playerathis
the TSW community is going to be a VERY strong one if closed beta was any indication.
Funny how you bring up e-peen when you're the one that seems to derive a sense of self worth based on your video game preferences. That is the difference between someone like you and someone like me. I'm not going to critizice or belittle you based on your tastes.
I find it hard to believe that Funcom cannot implement some number-based metric for content progression. I realize the AP progression system offers an usually amount of freedom in terms of character builds and playstyles, but Rift's progression system was fairly complex as well yet it still carried a level-based pression system. All of TSW, minus the character progression system, plays out near exactly like any themepark MMORPG on the market. I simply think having a level-less system needlessly complicates things. I think they could have designed a level-based system for character progression while retaining 99.9% of the functionality and freedom of the AP system.
The other issue with making a level based system over the current one is that you only gain sp and ap points via xp points you gather. In most leveling games you gain stat bonuses to your relavent stats (either auto distributed or manual.), but in tsw you get no stat buffs from merely "ding"ing as it were, which means that your gear an abilities choices not the amount of points you spent determine your relative power. Imean there is no different between someone who has aqquired 30 points of sp an ap, and someone brand new really till you spend those points, and even then even then it is variable based on your choices and such of spending those points how powerful you are. That is not even taking into how good or bad your gear is, aan how well it works wiht yoru build you creaated, as well as how well your build works with party members. A levveling based system like the traditional is well flawed here as there is no lineir standard increase in powewr to guage your characer against competely, as such it has to be done by comparing the mobs stats an your character's own stats to gain an idea.
LMAO, playing a game one of whose selling points is that it's skill-based rather than level-based, then complains that it's not level-based.
The issues is that ift/wow level systems rely on your character gaining a prett fixed progression of stat improvement to gauge difficulty, but with having 500+ choices of powers that can effect each other very different skewing the guage badly, and that you gain no static bonus to your stats each time you "ding" it is not as easy as it would seem. rift's soul system is much less complex than in that you can use up to 3 souls out of 8 to make your class basically, but in tsw you use 14 (7 passive an 7 active) powers to maake yoru build out of 500+ powers. THe degree of differencee in the varied power of the different builds is vastly largely comparably, and also your build can both excell by work with or against other player's builds too addng eve more factors into the general difficulty fo mobs. Yet it comes to "level" system rely on static stat imrovement to gauge the power of a player ass they improve in lvel, but in tsw you do not have this static stat improvement at all to guage the lvel of yourself compared to the mob.