A bit of further clarification: "trash mobs" doesn't mean "weak mobs", it means "mobs that don't represent any _new_ challenge". Once you learn how to kill an Ettin, what tactics you need to use, Etiins become trash mobs, no matter if they still represent the challenge: it's the same challenge, nothing new, you know how to kill them, you just go through routine. Action-filled, dodging, dangerous routine, but routine nevertheless.
And "being careful in pulling monsters" doesn't mean they aren't trash mobs anymore. In fact, I would much prefer that any action would trigger a script aggroing pre-designed groups of monsters at you and your group, so that whole "pulling monsters" idea would disappear like Dodo.
Fighting 3 monsters of the same type and then fighting 4 monsters is not routine; we have a new variable here. Fighting 3 monsters and 3 monsters and 3 monsters is fighting trash mobs, even if it's challenging.
From the video that was posted here, I see that indeed there are plenty trash mobs developers play through in the video. Oh, well, can't be helped. It's good to know that there are way to limit the necessity to go through it in the game.
I read through your post four times, and you've still managed to lose me here. So what are you implying? If I fight a group of two bears in the forests for the first time, they're not thrash mobs? But if I fight a group of two bears right after, they are thrash mobs, but if I fight a group of three bears instead, they're not? Would you then suggest the developers remove all but a few very scripted groups, even when (as I said in my previous post) every mob has a very valid reason in being where they are? Or are you just looking at the mobs as merely walking xp/loot containers, and not as an important part of the world you're exploring?
As I understand he wants an AI pool for mobs and also not a small one. He wants same mobs acts differently every time he encountered them. Sorry pal it is not quite possible because of time restrictions. Devs can't code 10's of different AI's for every mob in the game. It can be superb if they can but the chances are very low.
Also even real people in life doesn't give this diversity sadly. They act alike most of the time and this makes social interactions boring for me.
A bit of further clarification: "trash mobs" doesn't mean "weak mobs", it means "mobs that don't represent any _new_ challenge". Once you learn how to kill an Ettin, what tactics you need to use, Etiins become trash mobs, no matter if they still represent the challenge: it's the same challenge, nothing new, you know how to kill them, you just go through routine. Action-filled, dodging, dangerous routine, but routine nevertheless.
I think your interpretation of "trash mobs" is a bit strange.... So you want each "mob" you fight to be different than the rest? That's easy in fighting games, each battle is with a different opponent that uses different tricks, I don't know about any other type of game though.... That's nearly impossible
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I read through your post four times, and you've still managed to lose me here. So what are you implying? If I fight a group of two bears in the forests for the first time, they're not thrash mobs?
Yes, because they are new to you; you have to learn how to fight them.
But if I fight a group of two bears right after, they are thrash mobs,
Yes, because there is no new challenge there, you know how to fight them already.
but if I fight a group of three bears instead, they're not?
Yes, because you need to learn new way of fighting those 3 bears instead of 2; they represent a new challenge.
Would you then suggest the developers remove all but a few very scripted groups, even when (as I said in my previous post) every mob has a very valid reason in being where they are?
Yes. Them having a valid reason or not to be there is irrelevant if fighting them is boring; either give me new challenge or let me not to fight them.
Or are you just looking at the mobs as merely walking xp/loot containers, and not as an important part of the world you're exploring?
I'm perfectly okay with mobs being a part of the world I'm exploring as long as I don't have to fight them repeatedly, without a new challenge, to explore aforementioned world. Don't try to put some kind of ideology in support of fighting trash mobs.
Lmao @ Tactical terrain situations. If you expect every single mob that comes at you, to be unique, with different skillsets, and an instant boss fight, ur delusional. Thats not how dungeons are supposed to work. If you were referring to normal PvE content, your post makes even less sense to me. What are you expecting from regular quest mobs? Aside from 1-2 unique skills?
"If I wanted to fight the trash, I would become a janitor" LOL wut.
I guess you are right. I can't expect satisfying gameplay from MMORPGs. It is, after all, just mmorpgs. They can't jump above their heads.
If you mean mobs just placed on the map with no other purpose but help you level up
No, I mean mobs just placed in quest zones to extend the time I need to finish that quest. It's not important if they bring experience or not. If I have to repeatedly kill same or similar mobs using the same tactics and strategy without new challenge at each step, they are trash mobs.
There are no quest zones. There are no "quests" that tell you "Kill 10 blue rats" that wander between crowd of red and yellow rats. You have "Kill the wildlife thretening the farm" kind of event where killing anything thretening counts for it, whenever it's wurm, wolf or an ettin.
Usually (as in in every situation I ran into) when an event tells you that you need to cull the local population of centuar sor dredges the area will be filled exclusievely with various kinds of those enemies. You won't have to chop through packs of unrelated mobs to get to that single one type you need.
Only "trash" mobs are in dungeons (where they still do make sense) and they aren't over done, just enough to provide continuity between bosses without making wole dungeon feel like clearing trash and the Boss mobs in world guards, that again, are tied to the type of mob, so if You have event to kill Krait Blood Witch (think Naga, just more wicked)) she will be surrounded by evil fish and other Kraits.
In GW2 there is no traditional questing, so you won't be fighting any trash mobs when completing Dynamic events + Renown Hearts. You also won't encounter any trash mobs in Dungeons. However, Personal Story you may a few times, hardly though. Honestly, in general, GW2 doesn't really have 'trash' mobs. But I don't think you were ment to play MMORPGs with that mindset, and would you ever so kindly please provide some examples of games where there are no 'trash mobs'
As I understand he wants an AI pool for mobs and also not a small one. He wants same mobs acts differently every time he encountered them. Sorry pal it is not quite possible because of time restrictions. Devs can't code 10's of different AI's for every mob in the game. It can be superb if they can but the chances are very low.
Also even real people in life doesn't give this diversity sadly. They act alike most of the time and this makes social interactions boring for me.
Yes, I know about time restrictions. That's what I wrote in my first post. That's why I would prefer smaller games, with less content, but with richer content; if amount of content is achieved through adding trash mobs, it's not what I want from my games. Certainly some amount of repetition is inescapable, and I don't even want all that big of AI pool, but at least to diversify a composition of mob groups with each fight, add enviroment variables (and add the possibility to use those variables into mob AIs), add scripts and triggers for different monsters to react to each other and to composition of their group; reactions to different players' actions and results of monsters' actions.
Even a limited number of such rules in the AI may create quite complex emergent behavior with changes in variables. I'm aware of "lack of time" problems in creating such behavior, my bachelor's work was on AI in gaming, but I'm quite agree to play a game with smaller amount of content, but interesting one, than with huge amount of content, but too boring for me to play through.
In GW2 there is no traditional questing, so you won't be fighting any trash mobs when completing Dynamic events + Renown Hearts. You also won't encounter any trash mobs in Dungeons. However, Personal Story you may a few times, hardly though. Honestly, in general, GW2 doesn't really have 'trash' mobs. But I don't think you were ment to play MMORPGs with that mindset, and would you ever so kindly please provide some examples of games where there are no 'trash mobs'
No your wrong,by his definition of mobs every single mob in every game becomes 'trash mob' after he has killed it once.He needs to play another genre until mmo's can live up to his standards.
But I don't think you were ment to play MMORPGs with that mindset, and would you ever so kindly please provide some examples of games where there are no 'trash mobs'
There are no MMORGPS where there are no 'trash mobs', one of the problems for it is the need to "extend player time" for multimonth subscriptions; that's why I don't play MMORPGS anymore, and will never play another game with subscription. However, GW2 being B2P, they don't actually need to extend game time artificially, since they don't need to keep players, well, playing for many months; so I hoped the situation will change.
Alas, apparently, my hopes were crushed. Oh, well, I'll be quite content with PvP in GW2. At least those "mobs" have a developed AI behind their behavior. Not always clever, but certainly diverse.
I read through your post four times, and you've still managed to lose me here. So what are you implying? If I fight a group of two bears in the forests for the first time, they're not thrash mobs?
Yes, because they are new to you; you have to learn how to fight them.
But if I fight a group of two bears right after, they are thrash mobs,
Yes, because there is no new challenge there, you know how to fight them already.
but if I fight a group of three bears instead, they're not?
Yes, because you need to learn new way of fighting those 3 bears instead of 2; they represent a new challenge.
Would you then suggest the developers remove all but a few very scripted groups, even when (as I said in my previous post) every mob has a very valid reason in being where they are?
Yes. Them having a valid reason or not to be there is irrelevant if fighting them is boring; either give me new challenge or let me not to fight them.
Or are you just looking at the mobs as merely walking xp/loot containers, and not as an important part of the world you're exploring?
I'm perfectly okay with mobs being a part of the world I'm exploring as long as I don't have to fight them repeatedly, without a new challenge, to explore aforementioned world. Don't try to put some kind of ideology in support of fighting trash mobs.
Regarding your last sentence - what ideology? There's bandits in the bandit hideout because - guess what - it's a bandit hideout. Same with the centaur camp, it's a centaur camp, so of course there are supposed to be centaurs, some arming the catapults, some patrolling, some manning the walls, some strolling around in their huts. There's supposed to be elks, bears, boars, rabbits, raccoons, snakes and ravens in the forests. There's supposed to be wasps in the bee farms. Taking those out would mean the world is lacking a very significant part that makes it immersive and living, even if you call them "thrash mobs".
I suppose I'm done answering here, seen as you're wanting the game to be something that very much counters what the developers have stated they want it to be like.
Fairly sure you've played it already (based on your posts), but in case you haven't, I'd recommend checking out Shadow of Colossus instead.
Originally posted by Grahor The main problem in mmorpgs for me is trash mobs. You know them: just a bunch of mobs that present no challenge and no interest, having no purpose and are there only for one reason: to make you spend more time moving from start of the quest to its boss/end, or from point A to point B. Single player games have them, a recent example - Dragon Age 2 had them in nearly every battle. But in mmorpgs they truly are a pandemic. Since most mmorpgs need to artificially extend game time, they insert such mobs everywhere. My mind can take only so much extending before it bursts. For me, for a game to have interest, every encounter must represent a challenge - either by a new mob type, a new mob combination, or a different tactical situation through terrain, mob scripts, etc. This means that pretty much every encounter must be hand-crafted, or a lot of different types of enemies with different scripts, behaviors and AIs have to be created. This, of course, is a problem, because there is only so much human-months is available for development. This, by necessity, means that the games I like are short - because they contain no empty filler, no trash mobs, and without filler there is only so much content that can be developed. That's okay for me; if I wanted to fight the trash, I would become a janitor. So, the question. I didn't play GW2 betas, I did watch some videos; I don't expect anything revolutionary from it, and I'm satisfied with what I see. I am, however, interested, how many trash mobs are in there. In all mmorpgs I've played, the main reason I've stopped was because I was tired of moping the trash. Would I be tired in GW2 sooner or later?
Mkay...
Trash mobs make it less than trivial to travel from Point A to Point B - they insert some level of challenge, rather than just hitting autorun. They also serve to create some atmosphere - a tribe of Minotaurs happens to live here, so you'd expect there to be some minotaurs around. Near a swamp? I'd expect there to be some sort of wildlife, some of which hostile. Just a couple of examples.
They are not there for the purpose of extending game play. That's what the leveling mechanic, as well as other mechanics (Faction/Rep, which is in GW2 but to a much lesser extent than previous games relied on it to speedbump players (Vanilla WoW, early EQ, etc, where it literally would artificially add weeks/months)) do. Now, maybe in a grinder game where killing trash mobs is the main conduit to leveling, then it's extending game play, but that isn't typical in most western/global games any longer.
That being said, the trash mobs in GW2 are reasonable, from what I've seen of the early game at least. If you travel along the roads, you won't be heavily accosted and can move about relatively easily (just a few encounters - enough to prevent you from auto-running, but not so much to take a ton of time). When you start exploring the side areas, you see some pockets of expected resistance - want to see what's on the other side of that valley full of ghosts? Expect to have to fight your way through. The rewards for exploration are well worth it in this game.
The trash mobs range from fodder to some that actually require some tact - depending heavily on your play style. And the fact that your class acts and behaves differently depending on what weapon they have equipped, that makes a huge difference in how different types of mobs have to be played. Rather than relying on heavy AIs, most mobs use various combinations of immunity and special abilities - key abilities from the player classes/weapons, with special abilities such as "Dodges attacks more frequently" or "Chance to reflect ranged damage" to spice it up a bit. Some of the combinations can be brutal, some are trivial, most sit someplace in between - enough of a challenge to keep you awake, but not so difficult to make it cumbersome.
If you like games that require a minimal amount of side tracking to push through to a single objective - GW2 probably won't be for you. The personal story is amazing, but it does require a good deal of leveling to get through it, and that leveling has to occur via some means other than progressing through the personal story. GW2 forces you to do "other" things - but it doesn't shoehorn you into any single method. You can progress via PvP, questing, dynamic events, dungeons, exploration, grinding - however you want to do it, but if you just focus on one facet of the game you'll probably be disappointed. Not saying that liking what you like is wrong, but if that's your game, then yeah, GW2 may not be for you.
That being said, there is no sub, so your only out the box fee and you can play forever - so there isn't a whole lot of commitment in order to play around with it.
There really is no such thing as a "trash mob" in GW2. Normal every day quest monsters, even provide challenge, and if you dont pay attention you will die. Thats something I really look forward to, tired of roflstomping every mob in zones, and in dungeons.
GW2 does have 'trash mobs'. When I ran AC there were plenty. However, they do serve a purpose. They serve to help the group to 'practice' and get a feel for one another to prepare for boss fights. Often they serve a story purpose (i.e., guards of the boss). Also they make the dungeon last longer so the entire experience feels more epic. It's important to note that GW2 utilizes more than just 'trash mobs' and adds various traps and puzzles. Oh, and by the way - movies use trash mobs too - how many stormtroopers did Luke, Han and Leia have to kill to get to where they were going? Trash mobs are here to stay.
Regarding your last sentence - what ideology? There's bandits in the bandit hideout because - guess what - it's a bandit hideout. Same with the centaur camp, it's a centaur camp, so of course there are supposed to be centaurs, some arming the catapults, some patrolling, some manning the walls, some strolling around in their huts. There's supposed to be elks, bears, boars, rabbits, raccoons, snakes and ravens in the forests. There's supposed to be wasps in the bee farms. Taking those out would mean the world is lacking a very significant part that makes it immersive and living, even if you call them "thrash mobs".
I'm perfectly okay with bandit hideouts as long as it's: hideout 1 has 4 bandits who attack me and my group simultaneuously; hideout 2 has 7 bandits who attack me and my group simultaneuously; they have different behavior and different environment in which we fight.
If it becomes: pull a bandit; kill a bandit. Pull a bandit; kill a bandit. Repeat 20 times - thank you, I'll pass. I don't care about the immersing and living if it turns into pull-a-bandit routine. Talk about immersion!
I suppose I'm done answering here, seen as you're wanting the game to be something that very much counters what the developers have stated they want it to be like.
*shrug* I'm not sure about it. It's perfectly okay to have 20 bandits in a place. It is not okay to make me pull those 20 bandits one by one in order to kill them the same way I've killed the first bandit. That's not how bandits behave in "real world", if we speak about immersion. I hoped for a bit different mob mechanics.
Fairly sure you've played it already (based on your posts), but in case you haven't, I'd recommend checking out Shadow of Colossus insteadh.
Oh yeah, I played it and enjoyed it. It is, of course, the extreme case, but I don't see why other games can't add a bit of Shadow of Colossus to them.
Well honestly this video is nice, but the Charr is lv 80, the Mesmer is lv 14, and they fight lv16 mobs, so they kind of have it easy. You can see when the mesmer is left alone he have some hard time with those mobs But if you like challenge you should be well served with GW2, definitly the best mmo around to give you nice challenge, they do have trash mobs for sure but overall it way way better.Ps the nicest challenges for me were the skill points, some are really nicely made.
The fact that the Thief was level 80 still didn't stop him rom getting 2 shotted by those Ettins.
Sidekicking.
Remember that GW2 has automatic level demotion - if you are level 80 and wander back into the starting zone, it will demote your level back down to something appropriate (usually no higher than 1-2 levels above the average level of the mobs). So the L80 Charr had the same hp/resources/stats as probably a L16 or L18 character.
This happens on the fly - in the last BWE you could see your apparent level, and it would change without any visible fanfair, or without any jarring effects (you don't lose abilities, for instance, they just get scaled down). If your super-cool ability usually does about 10% to a mob at L30 fighting a L30 mob, when you get scaled down it will probably still do about 10% to whatever you happen to be fighting. It seems to try to keep things evenly keeled.
It's similar to sidekicking/mentoring, but it's not tied to your group, it's tied to the area/location you are in. At least what I've seen of it so far. And it isn't optional - you can't decide not to do it. The game does it automatically.
The main effect means you can't ROFLStomp trash, because you never severely out-level them. It also means you can pretty well group with anyone, at any place, and not have to worry about level restrictions (going down at least, it won't scale people upwards). It also keeps dynamic events relevant, as every person near the event (and the number of people nearby when the event triggers scales the difficulty of the event) will be within the level range to assist.
To answer you about as well as anyone can: Yes and no.
Mob spanwns are static. Location A will always have x number of mobs. They will spawn on a certain timed pattern (Note: DEs can and will change these patterns). One bandit camp is shaped and populated differently from another. Thigns aren't as "clone stamp" as EQ or WoW where you'll see little clusters of mobs in set locations, all the same. There is some of that, but it's not repeated as naseum like in other games.
Keep in mind, combat itself is MUCH more challenging. I won't say that once you "get" a mob's pattern you can't learn to predict it; that's pretty much the only way to survive. But it rarely becomes trivial. Some thought is generally required. The mob spawns in this game are not 100% what you're looking for; they're not 100% not either. How much you enjoy it is entirely up to you. If you can get ahold of a beta key I recommend trying it out and seeing for yourself.
That being said, the trash mobs in GW2 are reasonable, from what I've seen of the early game at least. If you travel along the roads, you won't be heavily accosted and can move about relatively easily (just a few encounters - enough to prevent you from auto-running, but not so much to take a ton of time).
That's very nice.
When you start exploring the side areas, you see some pockets of expected resistance - want to see what's on the other side of that valley full of ghosts? Expect to have to fight your way through. The rewards for exploration are well worth it in this game.
Well... That's a bit less nice. It's good and expected to see a challenge while exploring; but does it have to be the same? So, I need to pass through a valley full of ghost: it's perfectly okay for me to fight increasingly difficult battles. It's unacceptable for me to fight the same battle 20 times. Which one is likely to be here?
The trash mobs range from fodder to some that actually require some tact - depending heavily on your play style. And the fact that your class acts and behaves differently depending on what weapon they have equipped, that makes a huge difference in how different types of mobs have to be played. Rather than relying on heavy AIs, most mobs use various combinations of immunity and special abilities - key abilities from the player classes/weapons, with special abilities such as "Dodges attacks more frequently" or "Chance to reflect ranged damage" to spice it up a bit. Some of the combinations can be brutal, some are trivial, most sit someplace in between - enough of a challenge to keep you awake, but not so difficult to make it cumbersome.
Do you mean that the same monsters may have different immunities and special abilities, thus making fights with them less predictable and forcing to adapt on the run? Like, this Bear has some Paw Strike and Water Immunity, and this another but same-level, same-type Bear has Iron bite and Immunity to Stun? Or is it that same monsters have same immunities and special abilities?
If you like games that require a minimal amount of side tracking to push through to a single objective - GW2 probably won't be for you. The personal story is amazing, but it does require a good deal of leveling to get through it, and that leveling has to occur via some means other than progressing through the personal story. GW2 forces you to do "other" things - but it doesn't shoehorn you into any single method. You can progress via PvP, questing, dynamic events, dungeons, exploration, grinding - however you want to do it, but if you just focus on one facet of the game you'll probably be disappointed. Not saying that liking what you like is wrong, but if that's your game, then yeah, GW2 may not be for you.
I love exploration and challenge. What I don't like is when in order to explore you need to do "pull-a-ghost, kill-a-ghost, pull-a-ghost, kill-a-ghost" routine 20 times.
That being said, there is no sub, so your only out the box fee and you can play forever - so there isn't a whole lot of commitment in order to play around with it.
Absolutely, and that's why I'm certain to buy the box (that and PVP. I love PvP. Mobs there have diverse AIs). At least it will promote an alternative to subscription MMORPG model, with which I'm thoroughly through.
I'm not sure what you are asking for OP, I also notice you dodged the question when asked to give example of games you consider to have no trash mobs.
Every game I've played, from FPS to RPG to even RTS, all of them contain what what can be called "trash mobs" under your definition.
Developers cannot custom craft every single encounter, which means they will inevitably repeat. Even if you randomize the AI you're only expanding the possilibities, and once you learn to recognize the AI pattern it just become Mob A-AI Type X and everything after that becomes "trash mob".
Even changing up the mob group composition doesn't help solve the problem, as you can only mix them in so many ways.
To fit your criteria there will be essentially no encounters left outside of boss fights.
The main problem in mmorpgs for me is trash mobs. You know them: just a bunch of mobs that present no challenge and no interest, having no purpose and are there only for one reason: to make you spend more time moving from start of the quest to its boss/end, or from point A to point B.
Single player games have them, a recent example - Dragon Age 2 had them in nearly every battle. But in mmorpgs they truly are a pandemic. Since most mmorpgs need to artificially extend game time, they insert such mobs everywhere. My mind can take only so much extending before it bursts.
For me, for a game to have interest, every encounter must represent a challenge - either by a new mob type, a new mob combination, or a different tactical situation through terrain, mob scripts, etc. This means that pretty much every encounter must be hand-crafted, or a lot of different types of enemies with different scripts, behaviors and AIs have to be created. This, of course, is a problem, because there is only so much human-months is available for development.
This, by necessity, means that the games I like are short - because they contain no empty filler, no trash mobs, and without filler there is only so much content that can be developed. That's okay for me; if I wanted to fight the trash, I would become a janitor.
So, the question. I didn't play GW2 betas, I did watch some videos; I don't expect anything revolutionary from it, and I'm satisfied with what I see. I am, however, interested, how many trash mobs are in there. In all mmorpgs I've played, the main reason I've stopped was because I was tired of moping the trash. Would I be tired in GW2 sooner or later?
Lets say it quite simple. You have to focus more on pvp. Because seriously as you already said, in PvE you will always have trash mobs or even simplify it, enemies with no new challenge. And as you said already it isnt really possible, because of lack of advanced AI(maybe in 10 years) or the huge amount of work the developer have to put into it. So either it is just a short experience(and i cant remember one game with just challenging and always changing tactics within the pve).
And therefore a lot of players focus on pvp. Be it usual multiplayer games, or the multiplayer part of a single player game, or mmos. So look out for a game with a dedicated pvp, with either a lot of different maps because of the more different tactical situations through changing terrain, or huge maps. The WvW could be that part in GW2.
About the PvE in GW2.. you will see almost as much trash mobs as in any other game, maybe with the exception of the dungeons.. they could be a little bit longer interesting with the different exploration modes with no or at least very less trash mobs on the way.
But however, the best advice is you should really more focus on pvp, because that is more or less the only place where you get challenge, different and changing tactical situations and the long term fun out of a game.. any game.
That is the reason why i more or less play just games with a good multiplayer part to it.. pve just dont cut it anymore for a very long time. And GW2 will not be different in that part, as any game in the last years. We can just hope the developer will put more effort into AI, with even more important different layers of AI. Think about AI for every mob with different fighting styles and real environment awareness, with real counter tactics, but at the same time some kind of squad AI with more advanced tactics and strategy and on the highest layer some kind of AI to control the actions of a complete map or a complete race of mobs, to give orders to squads of mobs with some general plan. But the truth is, that AI in computer games have stagnated since years. The best example may be RTS, the AI didnt improved much, if at all from the first RTS to the current ones. They dont put a lot of effort into AI, or have the skills to do so... Scripted Events are so limited and by the same time so time consuming.
Originally posted by Grahor Do you mean that the same monsters may have different immunities and special abilities, thus making fights with them less predictable and forcing to adapt on the run? Like, this Bear has some Paw Strike and Water Immunity, and this another but same-level, same-type Bear has Iron bite and Immunity to Stun? Or is it that same monsters have same immunities and special abilities?
From what I've seen so far -
Similar mob types will have similar abilities, but not necessarily the same abilities. It's easier to demonstrate with humanoid-type mobs, because their weapon type will affect what abilities they have. While there are classes in GW2, the weapon selection more greatly influences how they behave. A Ranger with a bow will have different abilities than a Warrior with a bow, but all you can see is that someone ahead of you has a bow, so you know they will try to range you, but you don't know exactly how.
For instance -
All bears in a certain area may have Iron Bite and Paw Strike, but they also have 1-2 other abilities chosen at random from 4-5 species-appropriate abilities. Bears in a different area may have a different common ability, and different pool abilities, all together. So trash mobs of a common type are similar, but not necessarily identical.
The pool of abilities appears to be small (although I haven't got very high level, it could expand in higher levels), so at least early on, even thought there is variety to the encounters it doesn't take long before you've seen most of them - fortunately you fight your way through that ghost valley once, you kill about 20 ghosts (and their various combinations of abilities and in various numbers in a pack), and you never really have to do that again (because you've explored the area for map completion, gotten the skill point at the end, or what have you) - enough to where you can definitely pick up on the pattern, but not enough to make it nauseating; it's just a one-time ordeal. The real variability comes in on the dynamic events, where the difficulty scales dramatically.
I actually found myself wishing monster populations were a bit more dense and numerous. They're too easily avoided if not pertinent to my activity, and a bit too sparse if I'm out to kill them.
I'm trying to think of a single player game that does this lmao.
I think PVP is the only part of any game that does this.
Though I'm sure there are games out there that do this like FPS games.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
you know thing is you dont need to kill "trash" mobs anyway most "quests" killing trash mobs are only 1 thing usually there are 2-3 different things you can do instead
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I read through your post four times, and you've still managed to lose me here. So what are you implying? If I fight a group of two bears in the forests for the first time, they're not thrash mobs? But if I fight a group of two bears right after, they are thrash mobs, but if I fight a group of three bears instead, they're not? Would you then suggest the developers remove all but a few very scripted groups, even when (as I said in my previous post) every mob has a very valid reason in being where they are? Or are you just looking at the mobs as merely walking xp/loot containers, and not as an important part of the world you're exploring?
As I understand he wants an AI pool for mobs and also not a small one. He wants same mobs acts differently every time he encountered them. Sorry pal it is not quite possible because of time restrictions. Devs can't code 10's of different AI's for every mob in the game. It can be superb if they can but the chances are very low.
Also even real people in life doesn't give this diversity sadly. They act alike most of the time and this makes social interactions boring for me.
I think your interpretation of "trash mobs" is a bit strange.... So you want each "mob" you fight to be different than the rest? That's easy in fighting games, each battle is with a different opponent that uses different tricks, I don't know about any other type of game though.... That's nearly impossible
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I guess you are right. I can't expect satisfying gameplay from MMORPGs. It is, after all, just mmorpgs. They can't jump above their heads.
There are no quest zones. There are no "quests" that tell you "Kill 10 blue rats" that wander between crowd of red and yellow rats. You have "Kill the wildlife thretening the farm" kind of event where killing anything thretening counts for it, whenever it's wurm, wolf or an ettin.
Usually (as in in every situation I ran into) when an event tells you that you need to cull the local population of centuar sor dredges the area will be filled exclusievely with various kinds of those enemies. You won't have to chop through packs of unrelated mobs to get to that single one type you need.
Only "trash" mobs are in dungeons (where they still do make sense) and they aren't over done, just enough to provide continuity between bosses without making wole dungeon feel like clearing trash and the Boss mobs in world guards, that again, are tied to the type of mob, so if You have event to kill Krait Blood Witch (think Naga, just more wicked)) she will be surrounded by evil fish and other Kraits.
@Grahor
In GW2 there is no traditional questing, so you won't be fighting any trash mobs when completing Dynamic events + Renown Hearts. You also won't encounter any trash mobs in Dungeons. However, Personal Story you may a few times, hardly though. Honestly, in general, GW2 doesn't really have 'trash' mobs. But I don't think you were ment to play MMORPGs with that mindset, and would you ever so kindly please provide some examples of games where there are no 'trash mobs'
Yes, I know about time restrictions. That's what I wrote in my first post. That's why I would prefer smaller games, with less content, but with richer content; if amount of content is achieved through adding trash mobs, it's not what I want from my games. Certainly some amount of repetition is inescapable, and I don't even want all that big of AI pool, but at least to diversify a composition of mob groups with each fight, add enviroment variables (and add the possibility to use those variables into mob AIs), add scripts and triggers for different monsters to react to each other and to composition of their group; reactions to different players' actions and results of monsters' actions.
Even a limited number of such rules in the AI may create quite complex emergent behavior with changes in variables. I'm aware of "lack of time" problems in creating such behavior, my bachelor's work was on AI in gaming, but I'm quite agree to play a game with smaller amount of content, but interesting one, than with huge amount of content, but too boring for me to play through.
No your wrong,by his definition of mobs every single mob in every game becomes 'trash mob' after he has killed it once.He needs to play another genre until mmo's can live up to his standards.
There are no MMORGPS where there are no 'trash mobs', one of the problems for it is the need to "extend player time" for multimonth subscriptions; that's why I don't play MMORPGS anymore, and will never play another game with subscription. However, GW2 being B2P, they don't actually need to extend game time artificially, since they don't need to keep players, well, playing for many months; so I hoped the situation will change.
Alas, apparently, my hopes were crushed.
Oh, well, I'll be quite content with PvP in GW2. At least those "mobs" have a developed AI behind their behavior. Not always clever, but certainly diverse. 
Regarding your last sentence - what ideology? There's bandits in the bandit hideout because - guess what - it's a bandit hideout. Same with the centaur camp, it's a centaur camp, so of course there are supposed to be centaurs, some arming the catapults, some patrolling, some manning the walls, some strolling around in their huts. There's supposed to be elks, bears, boars, rabbits, raccoons, snakes and ravens in the forests. There's supposed to be wasps in the bee farms. Taking those out would mean the world is lacking a very significant part that makes it immersive and living, even if you call them "thrash mobs".
I suppose I'm done answering here, seen as you're wanting the game to be something that very much counters what the developers have stated they want it to be like.
Fairly sure you've played it already (based on your posts), but in case you haven't, I'd recommend checking out Shadow of Colossus instead.
Mkay...
Trash mobs make it less than trivial to travel from Point A to Point B - they insert some level of challenge, rather than just hitting autorun. They also serve to create some atmosphere - a tribe of Minotaurs happens to live here, so you'd expect there to be some minotaurs around. Near a swamp? I'd expect there to be some sort of wildlife, some of which hostile. Just a couple of examples.
They are not there for the purpose of extending game play. That's what the leveling mechanic, as well as other mechanics (Faction/Rep, which is in GW2 but to a much lesser extent than previous games relied on it to speedbump players (Vanilla WoW, early EQ, etc, where it literally would artificially add weeks/months)) do. Now, maybe in a grinder game where killing trash mobs is the main conduit to leveling, then it's extending game play, but that isn't typical in most western/global games any longer.
That being said, the trash mobs in GW2 are reasonable, from what I've seen of the early game at least. If you travel along the roads, you won't be heavily accosted and can move about relatively easily (just a few encounters - enough to prevent you from auto-running, but not so much to take a ton of time). When you start exploring the side areas, you see some pockets of expected resistance - want to see what's on the other side of that valley full of ghosts? Expect to have to fight your way through. The rewards for exploration are well worth it in this game.
The trash mobs range from fodder to some that actually require some tact - depending heavily on your play style. And the fact that your class acts and behaves differently depending on what weapon they have equipped, that makes a huge difference in how different types of mobs have to be played. Rather than relying on heavy AIs, most mobs use various combinations of immunity and special abilities - key abilities from the player classes/weapons, with special abilities such as "Dodges attacks more frequently" or "Chance to reflect ranged damage" to spice it up a bit. Some of the combinations can be brutal, some are trivial, most sit someplace in between - enough of a challenge to keep you awake, but not so difficult to make it cumbersome.
If you like games that require a minimal amount of side tracking to push through to a single objective - GW2 probably won't be for you. The personal story is amazing, but it does require a good deal of leveling to get through it, and that leveling has to occur via some means other than progressing through the personal story. GW2 forces you to do "other" things - but it doesn't shoehorn you into any single method. You can progress via PvP, questing, dynamic events, dungeons, exploration, grinding - however you want to do it, but if you just focus on one facet of the game you'll probably be disappointed. Not saying that liking what you like is wrong, but if that's your game, then yeah, GW2 may not be for you.
That being said, there is no sub, so your only out the box fee and you can play forever - so there isn't a whole lot of commitment in order to play around with it.
GW2 does have 'trash mobs'. When I ran AC there were plenty. However, they do serve a purpose. They serve to help the group to 'practice' and get a feel for one another to prepare for boss fights. Often they serve a story purpose (i.e., guards of the boss). Also they make the dungeon last longer so the entire experience feels more epic. It's important to note that GW2 utilizes more than just 'trash mobs' and adds various traps and puzzles. Oh, and by the way - movies use trash mobs too - how many stormtroopers did Luke, Han and Leia have to kill to get to where they were going? Trash mobs are here to stay.
Remember that GW2 has automatic level demotion - if you are level 80 and wander back into the starting zone, it will demote your level back down to something appropriate (usually no higher than 1-2 levels above the average level of the mobs). So the L80 Charr had the same hp/resources/stats as probably a L16 or L18 character.
This happens on the fly - in the last BWE you could see your apparent level, and it would change without any visible fanfair, or without any jarring effects (you don't lose abilities, for instance, they just get scaled down). If your super-cool ability usually does about 10% to a mob at L30 fighting a L30 mob, when you get scaled down it will probably still do about 10% to whatever you happen to be fighting. It seems to try to keep things evenly keeled.
It's similar to sidekicking/mentoring, but it's not tied to your group, it's tied to the area/location you are in. At least what I've seen of it so far. And it isn't optional - you can't decide not to do it. The game does it automatically.
The main effect means you can't ROFLStomp trash, because you never severely out-level them. It also means you can pretty well group with anyone, at any place, and not have to worry about level restrictions (going down at least, it won't scale people upwards). It also keeps dynamic events relevant, as every person near the event (and the number of people nearby when the event triggers scales the difficulty of the event) will be within the level range to assist.
To answer you about as well as anyone can: Yes and no.
Mob spanwns are static. Location A will always have x number of mobs. They will spawn on a certain timed pattern (Note: DEs can and will change these patterns). One bandit camp is shaped and populated differently from another. Thigns aren't as "clone stamp" as EQ or WoW where you'll see little clusters of mobs in set locations, all the same. There is some of that, but it's not repeated as naseum like in other games.
Keep in mind, combat itself is MUCH more challenging. I won't say that once you "get" a mob's pattern you can't learn to predict it; that's pretty much the only way to survive. But it rarely becomes trivial. Some thought is generally required. The mob spawns in this game are not 100% what you're looking for; they're not 100% not either. How much you enjoy it is entirely up to you. If you can get ahold of a beta key I recommend trying it out and seeing for yourself.
I'm not sure what you are asking for OP, I also notice you dodged the question when asked to give example of games you consider to have no trash mobs.
Every game I've played, from FPS to RPG to even RTS, all of them contain what what can be called "trash mobs" under your definition.
Developers cannot custom craft every single encounter, which means they will inevitably repeat. Even if you randomize the AI you're only expanding the possilibities, and once you learn to recognize the AI pattern it just become Mob A-AI Type X and everything after that becomes "trash mob".
Even changing up the mob group composition doesn't help solve the problem, as you can only mix them in so many ways.
To fit your criteria there will be essentially no encounters left outside of boss fights.
Lets say it quite simple. You have to focus more on pvp. Because seriously as you already said, in PvE you will always have trash mobs or even simplify it, enemies with no new challenge. And as you said already it isnt really possible, because of lack of advanced AI(maybe in 10 years) or the huge amount of work the developer have to put into it. So either it is just a short experience(and i cant remember one game with just challenging and always changing tactics within the pve).
And therefore a lot of players focus on pvp. Be it usual multiplayer games, or the multiplayer part of a single player game, or mmos. So look out for a game with a dedicated pvp, with either a lot of different maps because of the more different tactical situations through changing terrain, or huge maps. The WvW could be that part in GW2.
About the PvE in GW2.. you will see almost as much trash mobs as in any other game, maybe with the exception of the dungeons.. they could be a little bit longer interesting with the different exploration modes with no or at least very less trash mobs on the way.
But however, the best advice is you should really more focus on pvp, because that is more or less the only place where you get challenge, different and changing tactical situations and the long term fun out of a game.. any game.
That is the reason why i more or less play just games with a good multiplayer part to it.. pve just dont cut it anymore for a very long time. And GW2 will not be different in that part, as any game in the last years. We can just hope the developer will put more effort into AI, with even more important different layers of AI. Think about AI for every mob with different fighting styles and real environment awareness, with real counter tactics, but at the same time some kind of squad AI with more advanced tactics and strategy and on the highest layer some kind of AI to control the actions of a complete map or a complete race of mobs, to give orders to squads of mobs with some general plan. But the truth is, that AI in computer games have stagnated since years. The best example may be RTS, the AI didnt improved much, if at all from the first RTS to the current ones. They dont put a lot of effort into AI, or have the skills to do so... Scripted Events are so limited and by the same time so time consuming.
From what I've seen so far -
Similar mob types will have similar abilities, but not necessarily the same abilities. It's easier to demonstrate with humanoid-type mobs, because their weapon type will affect what abilities they have. While there are classes in GW2, the weapon selection more greatly influences how they behave. A Ranger with a bow will have different abilities than a Warrior with a bow, but all you can see is that someone ahead of you has a bow, so you know they will try to range you, but you don't know exactly how.
For instance -
All bears in a certain area may have Iron Bite and Paw Strike, but they also have 1-2 other abilities chosen at random from 4-5 species-appropriate abilities. Bears in a different area may have a different common ability, and different pool abilities, all together. So trash mobs of a common type are similar, but not necessarily identical.
The pool of abilities appears to be small (although I haven't got very high level, it could expand in higher levels), so at least early on, even thought there is variety to the encounters it doesn't take long before you've seen most of them - fortunately you fight your way through that ghost valley once, you kill about 20 ghosts (and their various combinations of abilities and in various numbers in a pack), and you never really have to do that again (because you've explored the area for map completion, gotten the skill point at the end, or what have you) - enough to where you can definitely pick up on the pattern, but not enough to make it nauseating; it's just a one-time ordeal. The real variability comes in on the dynamic events, where the difficulty scales dramatically.
I actually found myself wishing monster populations were a bit more dense and numerous. They're too easily avoided if not pertinent to my activity, and a bit too sparse if I'm out to kill them.
I'm trying to think of a single player game that does this lmao.
I think PVP is the only part of any game that does this.
Though I'm sure there are games out there that do this like FPS games.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
you know thing is you dont need to kill "trash" mobs anyway most "quests" killing trash mobs are only 1 thing usually there are 2-3 different things you can do instead
There are few battles that haven't been repeated in the past, even in FPS games.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Basically the OP wants:
First bear bites you, you kill it.
Second bear slashes you, you kill it.
Third bear pulls out a shotgun and shoots you, you die.