I do think what the OP is asking for is doable in the form of random mob skills and adaptive AI, but let's be honest, most of today's MMO players wouldn't be able to handle that level of challenge and would quit in frustration. It would be a niche game. Heck GW2 isn't all that difficult to clear "trash mobs" but you can't do it on auto pilot like you can with the average (non-forced grouping) MMO, and people are already complaining that it needs to be toned down.
So, the question. I didn't play GW2 betas, I did watch some videos; I don't expect anything revolutionary from it, and I'm satisfied with what I see. I am, however, interested, how many trash mobs are in there. In all mmorpgs I've played, the main reason I've stopped was because I was tired of moping the trash. Would I be tired in GW2 sooner or later?
Not sure how to answer this. How many trash mobs are in where?
Each dungeon is different, and each one has different mob makeups. Also even in the same dungeon different parts play out differently. Some pit you against many mobs, some only a few / a boss. From what I've seen of GW2's dungeons, they are not like what you'd find in say, TSW (almost nothing but bosses). There are a lot to the challenges besides the bosses. There are traps / environmental variables, with some mobs mixed in to make things even more difficult.
If you are looking for a challenging dungeon experience, you will definitely have one in GW2. However, if you are only looking to go from boss - to - boss, you may not enjoy these dungeons. Part of the challenge of this game is getting to the bosses. Some may see this as 'trash', but it's really setup more like a puzzle to be solved. For example, in order to progress through part of the dungeon, you may need to turn off a series of traps. However, in the middle of those traps are some elite guards. You have to figure out whether you want to commit, and engage the mobs while avoiding the traps, or try and pull them away from the traps, try disengage the traps first, or just rush in and hope for the best.
Another example is in one dungeon there are waves of enemies that are spawning at your team. There are some levers that operate some traps in between your team and the continuously spawning waves of enemies. You have to manage both fighting the monsters on the ground, and also keeping the traps going from above in order to be successfull, and mobs will attack from both above and below.
- So, if you are looking for that dungeon experience, expect it to be hard, but also expect to be facing a variety of different enemies. Some encounters will pit you up against 1-2 tough bosses. Others will pit you up against waves of weaker enemies. Some will mix the two together, some will just be trap / puzzle heavy. They will challenge you, though.
The main problem in mmorpgs for me is trash mobs. You know them: just a bunch of mobs that present no challenge and no interest, having no purpose and are there only for one reason: to make you spend more time moving from start of the quest to its boss/end, or from point A to point B.
Single player games have them, a recent example - Dragon Age 2 had them in nearly every battle. But in mmorpgs they truly are a pandemic. Since most mmorpgs need to artificially extend game time, they insert such mobs everywhere. My mind can take only so much extending before it bursts.
For me, for a game to have interest, every encounter must represent a challenge - either by a new mob type, a new mob combination, or a different tactical situation through terrain, mob scripts, etc. This means that pretty much every encounter must be hand-crafted, or a lot of different types of enemies with different scripts, behaviors and AIs have to be created. This, of course, is a problem, because there is only so much human-months is available for development.
This, by necessity, means that the games I like are short - because they contain no empty filler, no trash mobs, and without filler there is only so much content that can be developed. That's okay for me; if I wanted to fight the trash, I would become a janitor.
So, the question. I didn't play GW2 betas, I did watch some videos; I don't expect anything revolutionary from it, and I'm satisfied with what I see. I am, however, interested, how many trash mobs are in there. In all mmorpgs I've played, the main reason I've stopped was because I was tired of moping the trash. Would I be tired in GW2 sooner or later?
Trash = themepark gear grind language for mobs that get in the way of the bosses that give loot. it comes from a jaded culture where an instance is not doing the run for fun and loot, , its just about getting gear. Modern runs consist of running as fast as you possibly can until you get at a boss, moaning about how trash is a 'waste of time'. However, if you want interesting diveristy and different flavours of experience then ofc this means bosses AND mob combinations. Mob combinations = trash, its a stupid contradiction formed by jaded players who dont enjoy running through the instances they play - its just a treadmill. (im not refering to you grahor but the culture of tiered loot running in general)
GW2 presents a heathier balance where the instances are design cohesively (including mobs groups that dont give epix) You will still get gear from bosses ofc, but it doesnt represent the sole point of playing the game (which is the most important aspect)
The best and most memorable instance in wow had a decent mix of trash and bosses, which offered different ways of playing and different levels of intensity. Now look at the most hated instances in WOW, for e.g the PVP ones. No Trash, no social aspect, no-one enjoys them, and yet they feel forced to do them week after week because they have to keep up with the curve. Caught in a trap.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now let me pose a second question: If the success of a subscription-based MMO is measured by the number of people paying a monthly fee, how does that impact game design decisions?
The answer can be found in the mechanics and choices made in subscription-based MMOs, which keep customers actively playing by chasing something in the game through processes that take as long as possible. In other words, designers of traditional MMOs create content systems that take more time to keep people playing longer. If this is your business motivation and model so you keep getting paid, it makes sense and is an incredibly smart thing to do, and you need to support it.
When your game systems are designed to achieve the prime motivation of a subscription-based MMO, you run the risk of sacrificing quality to get as much content in as possible to fill that time. You get leveling systems that take insane amounts of grind to gain a level, loot drop systems that require doing a dungeon with a tiny chance the item you want can drop at the end, raid systems that need huge numbers of people online simultaneously to organize and play, thousands of wash/repeat item-collection or kill-mob quests or dailies with flavor text support, the best stat gear requiring crazy amounts of time to earn, etc.
But what if your business model isn’t based on a subscription? What if your content-design motivations aren’t driven by the need to create mechanics that keep people playing as long as possible? When looking at content design forGuild Wars 2, we’ve tried to ask the question: What if the development of the game was based on…wait for it…fun?
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
Some people have a very narrow deinition of what is fun, combined with the cynical outlook that no game can reach their standards.
I went into playing GW2 with the expectation that is was probably going to be pretty fun. It has lived up to my expectations and then some. In 2 weekends I already feel like I've gotten my money's worth.
op's first rather misleading text that has no semblance to text book definition of "trash mobs"
Depending on the situation, "trash mobs" can f***ing WRECK you in this game if you don't take them seriously.
Originally posted by Grahor
A bit of further clarification: "trash mobs" doesn't mean "weak mobs", it means "mobs that don't represent any _new_ challenge". Once you learn how to kill an Ettin, what tactics you need to use, Etiins become trash mobs, no matter if they still represent the challenge: it's the same challenge, nothing new, you know how to kill them, you just go through routine. Action-filled, dodging, dangerous routine, but routine nevertheless.
Oh wait... you're either a clever rascal fishing for a reaction (b/c we're not allowed to call people on what they're REALLY doing here anymore) or you;re an impossible to please delusional person who doesn't understand technology. ....yeah sure, WHY NOT make every single mob in one of the largest PVE worlds ever made have completely different Behavior every step of way?? Hell let's give each and every one of them a different set of animations while we're at it! ...it's not like that shit wouldn't take up 3 Terabytes of Data and 50 days just to downlod on DSL... BRILLIANT IDEA!!
Also regarding PvP: I play Tribes & TF2 when I'm not playing this and I guarantee it has some of the most skilled players I've seen this side of ranked CounterStrike servers... yet the same exact situations will keep playing out time and again against the same players who don't need to adapt b/c their playstyle is so perfected that any further evolution would be wasted (unless it was comp). Beating them can come down to luck more than it ever came down to tactics.
There really is no such thing as a "trash mob" in GW2. Normal every day quest monsters, even provide challenge, and if you dont pay attention you will die.
That's not saying much. If I don't pay attention, I can die fighting mobs in SWTOR. But it's no actual challenge. If I can kill 20 mobs using same tactics, same strategy, and not turning on a brain once, then 18 of those 20 mobs are trash mobs.
Let me dive into some detail related to these posts here.
During my BWE experience I was playing an elementalist and loving it. I noticed that although there is definitely life on the map, it's not just sitting there waiting for me to kill it. It's doing it's own thing, I COULD kill it, at times during events it became a damn fine idea to do so! Are you required to grind up thru groups of mobs to move forwards? No, not from what I experienced at all.
I will say this tho, watch your AOEs, little blighters take it pretty serious if you accidentally tap one...
I will say this tho, watch your AOEs, little blighters take it pretty serious if you accidentally tap one...
lol I did that to a group of moa birds while fighting an Ettin. That didn't go so well. But no, you don't need to wade through tons of mobs in GW2, just run around... if you want to have directions to your XP, find the heart quests and chances are on the way you'll run into events and sometimes even forget where you were going, I've had that "problem" many times already.
Well we have only done catacombs so far but from my experience I would say that the definition of trash mob may be different. While some of the Bosses were more elaborate some of the "guard" spawns were actually harder.
The Ranger spawns and the Elementalists in catacombs were horribly nasty. People were mad that the "trash" was harder than the boss but Ithink this was intentional. I the idea is there is one nasty nasty in a group of 3 and you need to do something about it.
I am not sure if the elementalist was balanced right. It did ridiculous damage, on the other hand if I Moa'ed it and we focus fired it the encounter was quite manageable. If you don't do that it wipes your whole groups. Watching vidoe's of people who don't understand how powerful spike damage is and think you tank and spank all pve I was just laughing as the elementalist destroyed them.
I dunno things may get nerfed but if they stay as they are I would say that just because they didn't give the mobs in the encoutner names doesn't mean they are pushovers.
That's how it is in GW1 too and to me it makes it much more fun. It's actually a challenge to get to the bosses.
Comments
I do think what the OP is asking for is doable in the form of random mob skills and adaptive AI, but let's be honest, most of today's MMO players wouldn't be able to handle that level of challenge and would quit in frustration. It would be a niche game. Heck GW2 isn't all that difficult to clear "trash mobs" but you can't do it on auto pilot like you can with the average (non-forced grouping) MMO, and people are already complaining that it needs to be toned down.
Not sure how to answer this. How many trash mobs are in where?
Each dungeon is different, and each one has different mob makeups. Also even in the same dungeon different parts play out differently. Some pit you against many mobs, some only a few / a boss. From what I've seen of GW2's dungeons, they are not like what you'd find in say, TSW (almost nothing but bosses). There are a lot to the challenges besides the bosses. There are traps / environmental variables, with some mobs mixed in to make things even more difficult.
If you are looking for a challenging dungeon experience, you will definitely have one in GW2. However, if you are only looking to go from boss - to - boss, you may not enjoy these dungeons. Part of the challenge of this game is getting to the bosses. Some may see this as 'trash', but it's really setup more like a puzzle to be solved. For example, in order to progress through part of the dungeon, you may need to turn off a series of traps. However, in the middle of those traps are some elite guards. You have to figure out whether you want to commit, and engage the mobs while avoiding the traps, or try and pull them away from the traps, try disengage the traps first, or just rush in and hope for the best.
Another example is in one dungeon there are waves of enemies that are spawning at your team. There are some levers that operate some traps in between your team and the continuously spawning waves of enemies. You have to manage both fighting the monsters on the ground, and also keeping the traps going from above in order to be successfull, and mobs will attack from both above and below.
- So, if you are looking for that dungeon experience, expect it to be hard, but also expect to be facing a variety of different enemies. Some encounters will pit you up against 1-2 tough bosses. Others will pit you up against waves of weaker enemies. Some will mix the two together, some will just be trap / puzzle heavy. They will challenge you, though.
Trash = themepark gear grind language for mobs that get in the way of the bosses that give loot. it comes from a jaded culture where an instance is not doing the run for fun and loot, , its just about getting gear. Modern runs consist of running as fast as you possibly can until you get at a boss, moaning about how trash is a 'waste of time'. However, if you want interesting diveristy and different flavours of experience then ofc this means bosses AND mob combinations. Mob combinations = trash, its a stupid contradiction formed by jaded players who dont enjoy running through the instances they play - its just a treadmill. (im not refering to you grahor but the culture of tiered loot running in general)
GW2 presents a heathier balance where the instances are design cohesively (including mobs groups that dont give epix) You will still get gear from bosses ofc, but it doesnt represent the sole point of playing the game (which is the most important aspect)
The best and most memorable instance in wow had a decent mix of trash and bosses, which offered different ways of playing and different levels of intensity. Now look at the most hated instances in WOW, for e.g the PVP ones. No Trash, no social aspect, no-one enjoys them, and yet they feel forced to do them week after week because they have to keep up with the curve. Caught in a trap.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
OP,
You might be interested to reads Anets latest blog post
http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success
An Excerpt:
Now let me pose a second question: If the success of a subscription-based MMO is measured by the number of people paying a monthly fee, how does that impact game design decisions?
The answer can be found in the mechanics and choices made in subscription-based MMOs, which keep customers actively playing by chasing something in the game through processes that take as long as possible. In other words, designers of traditional MMOs create content systems that take more time to keep people playing longer. If this is your business motivation and model so you keep getting paid, it makes sense and is an incredibly smart thing to do, and you need to support it.
When your game systems are designed to achieve the prime motivation of a subscription-based MMO, you run the risk of sacrificing quality to get as much content in as possible to fill that time. You get leveling systems that take insane amounts of grind to gain a level, loot drop systems that require doing a dungeon with a tiny chance the item you want can drop at the end, raid systems that need huge numbers of people online simultaneously to organize and play, thousands of wash/repeat item-collection or kill-mob quests or dailies with flavor text support, the best stat gear requiring crazy amounts of time to earn, etc.
But what if your business model isn’t based on a subscription? What if your content-design motivations aren’t driven by the need to create mechanics that keep people playing as long as possible? When looking at content design forGuild Wars 2, we’ve tried to ask the question: What if the development of the game was based on…wait for it…fun?
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
Some people have a very narrow deinition of what is fun, combined with the cynical outlook that no game can reach their standards.
I went into playing GW2 with the expectation that is was probably going to be pretty fun. It has lived up to my expectations and then some. In 2 weekends I already feel like I've gotten my money's worth.
Depending on the situation, "trash mobs" can f***ing WRECK you in this game if you don't take them seriously.
Oh wait... you're either a clever rascal fishing for a reaction (b/c we're not allowed to call people on what they're REALLY doing here anymore) or you;re an impossible to please delusional person who doesn't understand technology. ....yeah sure, WHY NOT make every single mob in one of the largest PVE worlds ever made have completely different Behavior every step of way?? Hell let's give each and every one of them a different set of animations while we're at it! ...it's not like that shit wouldn't take up 3 Terabytes of Data and 50 days just to downlod on DSL... BRILLIANT IDEA!!
Also regarding PvP: I play Tribes & TF2 when I'm not playing this and I guarantee it has some of the most skilled players I've seen this side of ranked CounterStrike servers... yet the same exact situations will keep playing out time and again against the same players who don't need to adapt b/c their playstyle is so perfected that any further evolution would be wasted (unless it was comp). Beating them can come down to luck more than it ever came down to tactics.
Let me dive into some detail related to these posts here.
During my BWE experience I was playing an elementalist and loving it. I noticed that although there is definitely life on the map, it's not just sitting there waiting for me to kill it. It's doing it's own thing, I COULD kill it, at times during events it became a damn fine idea to do so! Are you required to grind up thru groups of mobs to move forwards? No, not from what I experienced at all.
I will say this tho, watch your AOEs, little blighters take it pretty serious if you accidentally tap one...
lol I did that to a group of moa birds while fighting an Ettin. That didn't go so well. But no, you don't need to wade through tons of mobs in GW2, just run around... if you want to have directions to your XP, find the heart quests and chances are on the way you'll run into events and sometimes even forget where you were going, I've had that "problem" many times already.
That's how it is in GW1 too and to me it makes it much more fun. It's actually a challenge to get to the bosses.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
thrash mobs in gw2 easily thrash us out
even wit these mobs u have to play smart