"GW2, remember what a huge failure that was, I yam still mad."
"Dude, you've been saying that every day for three years now. Get a grip."
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
GW2 is appealing to me, but even so I'll play it for a bit then turn my interest to the next big thing. MMO players all suffer from ADD these days. GW2 will probably be around, but it will be the 4th expansion and most people will be talking about the newer games.
edit:
"Anybody wonder what the retention rate will be for gw2?"
That's the beauty of it. GW2 just needs to sell boxes. As long as they get decent word of month it doesn't matter how long or often people play. No subs to worry about.
Well it matters for those people playing doesn't it? I mean what fun is fighting 20 other people on a huge WvWvW map?
Edit: and to be clear, I'm not saying that is what will happen, I'm just giving an example of why population is important for this game just like every other mmo.
i dont think anyone understands yet just how big GW2 is going to be. it will definitely reach WoW levels within a few years, and probably surpass it. you will see if you dont believe me.
All these new games are just trying to copy GW2 without..
That part has already started. Have you seen some of the Elder Scrolls Online features? It's basically GW2 and WoW visit Skyrim, only Skyrim now looks like ass.
You do know they both started developement in the same year, right? How can they be clones of each other? Anyway, mmorpgs are already starting to branch out somewhat from purely cloning WOW anyway, so it's unlikely mmos start copying GW2. Atleast i hope so. The last thing i want is innovation to stop to stat this process all over again.
Oh I see, so it's just a coincidence that TESO is very similar to GW2 and WoW in most of it's features, right?
I mean, is just a coincidence that TESO will have weapon skills, utility skills and 1 ultimate skill on the action bar just like GW2, right? Or the simple fact that players can combine attacks, like in GW2?
Read some of the features, it's basically WoW + GW2.
I more hopes for headlines like: "GW2, WoDO and Class 4 finally made EA and Activision realize that they must stop just copying eachother and have started to make original games" instead.
GW2 is a really well made fun game but the real reason it is getting so much more attention than games like Rift is that they at least try to make something a bit original. If everyone just start to copy and paste from it instead of from EQ and Wow it would be the final nail in the coffin for MMOs.
I would say that MMOs need to change but it really s MMO devs and publisher that needs to change. They need to actually start thinking instead of just spying on eachother and stealing eachother few ideas.
We need more companies like CCP and Undead labs, they don't care what others do, they instead do their own thing.
While I may not be as zealous as the OP, I think we all should be hoping GW2 has a positive influence on future game development (I personally see evidence that it already is having an impact but that's beside the point), not just in miming GW2s exact features, but in showing other designers that it's now safe to step away from the WoW model and be creative once again. Finally.
Whether you're a GW2 fan or not, you'd be an idiot to not want that. I'm excited for GW2 for sure, but I'm more excited about its potential impact on future games. Either way, I think it's safe to say we won't be seeing anywhere near the amount of blatant WoW clones.
If GW2 is successful (which seems a pretty safe bet at this point) it only further guarantess fewer WoW clones blemishing future horizons. That's good news for any of us that saw the MMO genre get put on hold for years in the wake of WoW as nearly every developer scrambled to recreate the exact same experience WoW was already delivering, while those of us not playing WoW didn't want WoW anyway.
I'm sure those that are still content with WoW, Rift, Swtor or any of the other clones couldn't care less, but there certainly seems to be a fairly large percentage of us that are done with that crap and flat out don't enjoy it and would welcome any deviation from the clone blueprint. I'd say it's about time.
I more hopes for headlines like: "GW2, WoDO and Class 4 finally made EA and Activision realize that they must stop just copying eachother and have started to make original games" instead.
GW2 is a really well made fun game but the real reason it is getting so much more attention than games like Rift is that they at least try to make something a bit original. If everyone just start to copy and paste from it instead of from EQ and Wow it would be the final nail in the coffin for MMOs.
I would say that MMOs need to change but it really s MMO devs and publisher that needs to change. They need to actually start thinking instead of just spying on eachother and stealing eachother few ideas.
We need more companies like CCP and Undead labs, they don't care what others do, they instead do their own thing.
huh? Rift did Events before GW2 did. the events in GW2 are the same concept as events in Rift.
While I may not be as zealous as the OP, I think we all should be hoping GW2 has a positive influence on future game development (I personally see evidence that it already is having an impact but that's beside the point), not just in miming GW2s exact features, but in showing other designers that it's now safe to step away from the WoW model and be creative once again. Finally.
Whether you're a GW2 fan or not, you'd be an idiot to not want that. I'm excited for GW2 for sure, but I'm more excited about its potential impact on future games. Either way, I think it's safe to say we won't be seeing anywhere near the amount of blatant WoW clones.
If GW2 is successful (which seems a pretty safe bet at this point) it only further guarantess fewer WoW clones blemishing future horizons. That's good news for any of us that saw the MMO genre get put on hold for years in the wake of WoW as nearly every developer scrambled to recreate the exact same experience WoW was already delivering, while those of us not playing WoW didn't want WoW anyway.
I'm sure those that are still content with WoW, Rift, Swtor or any of the other clones couldn't care less, but there certainly seems to be a fairly large percentage of us that are done with that crap and flat out don't enjoy it and would welcome any deviation from the clone blueprint. I'd say it's about time.
but how do we define success with a B2P MMO?
like a few pages ago, most fans will ignore the retention rate of players.
if Player population drops, who here will point that issue out when fans start throwing around the total box sell numbers around like they did in GW1?
nobody will... because its only player point of view on population issues, verse Anet's box sell numbers which I am sure they will market since most MMO consumers here confuse the two terms (Sub numbers, Box Sells numbers)
and we all know, MMO consumers love games to be able to hold Sub Numbers. So if these people confuse Sub number and Box Sell numbers, its easy to fool them with cleaver marketing into seeing GW2's total Box sells as an important factor in population speculation.
I more hopes for headlines like: "GW2, WoDO and Class 4 finally made EA and Activision realize that they must stop just copying eachother and have started to make original games" instead.
GW2 is a really well made fun game but the real reason it is getting so much more attention than games like Rift is that they at least try to make something a bit original. If everyone just start to copy and paste from it instead of from EQ and Wow it would be the final nail in the coffin for MMOs.
I would say that MMOs need to change but it really s MMO devs and publisher that needs to change. They need to actually start thinking instead of just spying on eachother and stealing eachother few ideas.
We need more companies like CCP and Undead labs, they don't care what others do, they instead do their own thing.
huh? Rift did Events before GW2 did. the events in GW2 are the same concept as events in Rift.
Ferrari and Lada are same concept, they are both cars, the difference is obvious to anyone. The difference between DEs and Rifts should've been obvious as well.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I'm not exactly sure why this seems to be an area of contention for anyone, considering it's not hard to gauge GW1s success and it followed the same model.
It sold over 6 million boxes (which is good for any game let alone an MMO), released expansions that were well recieved and still retains a populated and active community to this day - on top of that a quick glance at trade chat and public areas also shows a lot of players are clearly taking advantage of the cash shop.
It's not like there's no other criteria for judging how well a game is doing without subscription numbers. Clearly GW1 was successful enough to afford them to pursue GW2 after just a few years and it performed well enough for the parent company to feel comfortable taking a very hands-off approach.
I don't think that in two years anyone with common sense and the most basic understanding of gaming business models will have any difficulty judging how well GW2 is or isn't doing.
The only difference between the forums now and in 2015 will be the names of the games.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
The year is 2015 and I am browsing the forums and see a few interesting topics I want to read. Here are a few of them:
All these new games are just trying to copy GW2 without..
I remember where I was and what I was doing the day GW2 release date was published.
The day the industry changed forever, GW2 release date
GW2 clones are popping up everywhere..
Can you remember back when you played a subscription to play a game you already own.
Once upon a time, back in the dark ages of MMO’s, pre GW2, we..
…. has officially declared bankruptcy after their P2P games…
The un-holy trinity is officially dead since…
“LF Healer” has hit an official low in all…
I can see the posts now J
Sorry but you are dreaming. Maybe there will be headlines about PR work ANet did to hype this piece up but other than that there won't be anything. And I promise to start a thread here to apologize if I'll be proved to be wrong. Safe promise anyway.
I'm not exactly sure why this seems to be an area of contention for anyone, considering it's not hard to gauge GW1s success and it followed the same model.
It sold over 6 million boxes (which is good for any game let alone an MMO), released expansions that were well recieved and still retains a populated and active community to this day - on top of that a quick glance at trade chat and public areas also shows a lot of players are clearly taking advantage of the cash shop.
It's not like there's no other criteria for judging how well a game is doing without subscription numbers. Clearly GW1 was successful enough to afford them to pursue GW2 after just a few years and it performed well enough for the parent company to feel comfortable taking a very hands-off approach.
I don't think that in two years anyone with common sense and the most basic understanding of gaming business models will have any difficulty judging how well GW2 is or isn't doing.
Do you really think it'll be that hard?
GW1 wasnt a MMO. It never took into fact the population drops, which never effect the PvE gameplay in GW1.
in a MMO, population has a far greater effect. if population drops in a MMO, than something bad usually happens. Because players population effects other players.
this is something many of you are ignoring about GW2. GW2 is not a CORPG like GW1. its a MMO. Population is a factor here.
with box sell numbers, that mean nothing.
How many Elder Scroll Oblivion boxes sold? and what percentage of them are still playing? Box sells mean nothing in MMOs. in non MMO, the percentage of people playing, means nothing. but again, they arent MMO.
I'm not exactly sure why this seems to be an area of contention for anyone, considering it's not hard to gauge GW1s success and it followed the same model.
It sold over 6 million boxes (which is good for any game let alone an MMO), released expansions that were well recieved and still retains a populated and active community to this day - on top of that a quick glance at trade chat and public areas also shows a lot of players are clearly taking advantage of the cash shop.
It's not like there's no other criteria for judging how well a game is doing without subscription numbers. Clearly GW1 was successful enough to afford them to pursue GW2 after just a few years and it performed well enough for the parent company to feel comfortable taking a very hands-off approach.
I don't think that in two years anyone with common sense and the most basic understanding of gaming business models will have any difficulty judging how well GW2 is or isn't doing.
Do you really think it'll be that hard?
The only thing is your numbers are slightly misleading. GW1 did sell 6 million boxes, only that number includes all of the expansion packs. Not that a few million accounts is bad, but it is nowhere near the 6 million you try to portray.
in a MMO, population has a far greater effect. if population drops in a MMO, than something bad usually happens. Because players population effects other players.
The best way to measure population is with the active/full servers. The game had 48 in the last BWE and they were increased to 96, that means the population increased. If at any given point in the future we go back to 48 then the game is obviously failing (see SWTOR) if the servers instead increase even more, then it is doing fine.
We won't have many server transfer issues either, the guesting system helps and it is ridiculously easy to change a home server as well (if they reduce the servers they will give free transfers of course)
Counting the servers (and their activity status) should be a good indication on overall game population health.
Once of course they give us a way to see server status while not in-game (I hope Anet will have a server status webpage at release)
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I'm not exactly sure why this seems to be an area of contention for anyone, considering it's not hard to gauge GW1s success and it followed the same model.
It sold over 6 million boxes (which is good for any game let alone an MMO), released expansions that were well recieved and still retains a populated and active community to this day - on top of that a quick glance at trade chat and public areas also shows a lot of players are clearly taking advantage of the cash shop.
It's not like there's no other criteria for judging how well a game is doing without subscription numbers. Clearly GW1 was successful enough to afford them to pursue GW2 after just a few years and it performed well enough for the parent company to feel comfortable taking a very hands-off approach.
I don't think that in two years anyone with common sense and the most basic understanding of gaming business models will have any difficulty judging how well GW2 is or isn't doing.
Do you really think it'll be that hard?
GW1 wasnt a MMO. It never took into fact the population drops, which never effect the PvE gameplay in GW1.
in a MMO, population has a far greater effect. if population drops in a MMO, than something bad usually happens. Because players population effects other players.
this is something many of you are ignoring about GW2. GW2 is not a CORPG like GW1. its a MMO. Population is a factor here.
with box sell numbers, that mean nothing.
How many Elder Scroll Oblivion boxes sold? and what percentage of them are still playing? Box sells mean nothing in MMOs. in non MMO, the percentage of people playing, means nothing. but again, they arent MMO.
Off the top of my head some factors that would indicate how healthy or successful GW2 is in the future would be:
- Box sales (You say they don't matter, I think that's silly - of course they matter to a game that's relying on box sales)
- Server populations (anyone that's previously bought the game faces no barrier to hopping on and seeing how busy it is)
- Number of servers (were they merged, were more added?)
- Chatter and presence in the community and media
- Expansions (How many boxes sold? 100k? 2 million? Regardless of the number, it's pretty indicative of how many are still actively playing. This would generate a very clear picture of how many people are currently playing.
- Quarterly reports &earning reports/ user milestone reports/ concurrent user reports: Companies love sending out little media blurbs whenever they reach certain user related milestones (eg. ''Shadowbane saw a record number of players last saturday as over 40k players flooded the servers setting a new all time concurrent high for the game'').
Again, I don't think anyone with any amount of common sense will have any trouble at all determining if the game is doing well or not. Is your server dead? Are other servers dead? Might not be doing so well then. Is there an active community in all 3 venues of gameplay or is, for example, WvW dead?
I simply can't understand why you're convinced you won't be able to tell if the game is healthy or not. Anything beyond 'Is it populated?' is of no concern in this instance as you're concerned with the number of people playing, and that can be answered by logging in or askling around if you don't own the game.
Comments
Hmmm last time I checked the time we were still in 2012.
Unfortunately there won't be any forum headlines in 2015 because everyone would be busy surviving the end of the world and all that.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Nooooooooo, really? someone cleary didnt get the point of the post.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Alternatively, we may see:
"GW2, remember what a huge failure that was, I yam still mad."
"Dude, you've been saying that every day for three years now. Get a grip."
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Made me chuckle...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Well it matters for those people playing doesn't it? I mean what fun is fighting 20 other people on a huge WvWvW map?
Edit: and to be clear, I'm not saying that is what will happen, I'm just giving an example of why population is important for this game just like every other mmo.
i dont think anyone understands yet just how big GW2 is going to be. it will definitely reach WoW levels within a few years, and probably surpass it. you will see if you dont believe me.
Oh I see, so it's just a coincidence that TESO is very similar to GW2 and WoW in most of it's features, right?
I mean, is just a coincidence that TESO will have weapon skills, utility skills and 1 ultimate skill on the action bar just like GW2, right? Or the simple fact that players can combine attacks, like in GW2?
Read some of the features, it's basically WoW + GW2.
What is there to clone? DEs?
Flaming again I see. You sure are a bitter person. Go back to TSW and grow up.
I more hopes for headlines like: "GW2, WoDO and Class 4 finally made EA and Activision realize that they must stop just copying eachother and have started to make original games" instead.
GW2 is a really well made fun game but the real reason it is getting so much more attention than games like Rift is that they at least try to make something a bit original. If everyone just start to copy and paste from it instead of from EQ and Wow it would be the final nail in the coffin for MMOs.
I would say that MMOs need to change but it really s MMO devs and publisher that needs to change. They need to actually start thinking instead of just spying on eachother and stealing eachother few ideas.
We need more companies like CCP and Undead labs, they don't care what others do, they instead do their own thing.
Duh, Wow have many unique features, right?
GW2 have a distinct feel to it when you play, that is what they will clone, not specific features.
The feel, ok.
While I may not be as zealous as the OP, I think we all should be hoping GW2 has a positive influence on future game development (I personally see evidence that it already is having an impact but that's beside the point), not just in miming GW2s exact features, but in showing other designers that it's now safe to step away from the WoW model and be creative once again. Finally.
Whether you're a GW2 fan or not, you'd be an idiot to not want that. I'm excited for GW2 for sure, but I'm more excited about its potential impact on future games. Either way, I think it's safe to say we won't be seeing anywhere near the amount of blatant WoW clones.
If GW2 is successful (which seems a pretty safe bet at this point) it only further guarantess fewer WoW clones blemishing future horizons. That's good news for any of us that saw the MMO genre get put on hold for years in the wake of WoW as nearly every developer scrambled to recreate the exact same experience WoW was already delivering, while those of us not playing WoW didn't want WoW anyway.
I'm sure those that are still content with WoW, Rift, Swtor or any of the other clones couldn't care less, but there certainly seems to be a fairly large percentage of us that are done with that crap and flat out don't enjoy it and would welcome any deviation from the clone blueprint. I'd say it's about time.
huh? Rift did Events before GW2 did. the events in GW2 are the same concept as events in Rift.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
but how do we define success with a B2P MMO?
like a few pages ago, most fans will ignore the retention rate of players.
if Player population drops, who here will point that issue out when fans start throwing around the total box sell numbers around like they did in GW1?
nobody will... because its only player point of view on population issues, verse Anet's box sell numbers which I am sure they will market since most MMO consumers here confuse the two terms (Sub numbers, Box Sells numbers)
and we all know, MMO consumers love games to be able to hold Sub Numbers. So if these people confuse Sub number and Box Sell numbers, its easy to fool them with cleaver marketing into seeing GW2's total Box sells as an important factor in population speculation.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
OP is a good troll. This thread and his "the word fanboy is sexist against women" thread are proof of his intentions.
He be trolling, son. At least I hope he is, if he is serious...a double facepalm would not suffice.
Ferrari and Lada are same concept, they are both cars, the difference is obvious to anyone. The difference between DEs and Rifts should've been obvious as well.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I'm not exactly sure why this seems to be an area of contention for anyone, considering it's not hard to gauge GW1s success and it followed the same model.
It sold over 6 million boxes (which is good for any game let alone an MMO), released expansions that were well recieved and still retains a populated and active community to this day - on top of that a quick glance at trade chat and public areas also shows a lot of players are clearly taking advantage of the cash shop.
It's not like there's no other criteria for judging how well a game is doing without subscription numbers. Clearly GW1 was successful enough to afford them to pursue GW2 after just a few years and it performed well enough for the parent company to feel comfortable taking a very hands-off approach.
I don't think that in two years anyone with common sense and the most basic understanding of gaming business models will have any difficulty judging how well GW2 is or isn't doing.
Do you really think it'll be that hard?
The only difference between the forums now and in 2015 will be the names of the games.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Sorry but you are dreaming. Maybe there will be headlines about PR work ANet did to hype this piece up but other than that there won't be anything. And I promise to start a thread here to apologize if I'll be proved to be wrong. Safe promise anyway.
GW1 wasnt a MMO. It never took into fact the population drops, which never effect the PvE gameplay in GW1.
in a MMO, population has a far greater effect. if population drops in a MMO, than something bad usually happens. Because players population effects other players.
this is something many of you are ignoring about GW2. GW2 is not a CORPG like GW1. its a MMO. Population is a factor here.
with box sell numbers, that mean nothing.
How many Elder Scroll Oblivion boxes sold? and what percentage of them are still playing? Box sells mean nothing in MMOs. in non MMO, the percentage of people playing, means nothing. but again, they arent MMO.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
....but its not that good of a game...
The only thing is your numbers are slightly misleading. GW1 did sell 6 million boxes, only that number includes all of the expansion packs. Not that a few million accounts is bad, but it is nowhere near the 6 million you try to portray.
The best way to measure population is with the active/full servers. The game had 48 in the last BWE and they were increased to 96, that means the population increased. If at any given point in the future we go back to 48 then the game is obviously failing (see SWTOR) if the servers instead increase even more, then it is doing fine.
We won't have many server transfer issues either, the guesting system helps and it is ridiculously easy to change a home server as well (if they reduce the servers they will give free transfers of course)
Counting the servers (and their activity status) should be a good indication on overall game population health.
Once of course they give us a way to see server status while not in-game (I hope Anet will have a server status webpage at release)
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Off the top of my head some factors that would indicate how healthy or successful GW2 is in the future would be:
- Box sales (You say they don't matter, I think that's silly - of course they matter to a game that's relying on box sales)
- Server populations (anyone that's previously bought the game faces no barrier to hopping on and seeing how busy it is)
- Number of servers (were they merged, were more added?)
- Chatter and presence in the community and media
- Expansions (How many boxes sold? 100k? 2 million? Regardless of the number, it's pretty indicative of how many are still actively playing. This would generate a very clear picture of how many people are currently playing.
- Quarterly reports &earning reports/ user milestone reports/ concurrent user reports: Companies love sending out little media blurbs whenever they reach certain user related milestones (eg. ''Shadowbane saw a record number of players last saturday as over 40k players flooded the servers setting a new all time concurrent high for the game'').
Again, I don't think anyone with any amount of common sense will have any trouble at all determining if the game is doing well or not. Is your server dead? Are other servers dead? Might not be doing so well then. Is there an active community in all 3 venues of gameplay or is, for example, WvW dead?
I simply can't understand why you're convinced you won't be able to tell if the game is healthy or not. Anything beyond 'Is it populated?' is of no concern in this instance as you're concerned with the number of people playing, and that can be answered by logging in or askling around if you don't own the game.
There's simply no mystery to it, sorry.