Ah, well, we're heading for the Standard Sandbox thread after all.
Well, at least was better than another hackneyed DamnKids thread.
You're on a roll today.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It's not just modern gamers its everything about that generation they have no patience for anything and heavens forbid they have to put effort into anything.
If I had my way I would cull everyone between the age of 8 and 21 and get rid of that horrible generation that those slightly older than me created.
This sounds an awful lot like... .. . "Back in my days..." I think you just pointed out the third constant after death and taxes.
I think that the problem is more society based than anything else. Look at the current world we live in... When we need to make a phone call, we pick up our cell phone which is right next to us. When we want to watch a particular show on the tube, we just log into one of our favoirte hosting sites and watch what ever episode of a particular series we wish to watch. Were hungery so we either call up delivery so we don't have to cook or we nuke something in the microwave. We want information on pretty much anything, we pick up our smart phone/tablet or turn on our computer and look up what ever we want to find out.
To me everything has been going down hill for several years with the younger generation having the mind-set of: gimmie-gimmie-gimmie now-now-now I-want-I-want-I-want. With the threat of law suits by your own children for attempting to teach them right from wrong by utilizing the age old method of spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child. I think a lot of what we see these days is a direct correspondence with the lack of disaplining of the child as they are growing up and to make them realize that the world does not come gift-wrapped on a silver platter and the world does not revolve around their "wants".
Yes the world has gone to hell. I can't wait till my generation are the ones in Congress crapping all over these pony loving entitlement brats.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm pretty sure you're a net liar, but that's cool.
My Unreal modding went to creating levels, changing physics on weapons, and making a Bender skin because I wanted people to kiss my shiny metal ass while I was playing.
But, unlike you, I do feel that most people who even loaded up a skin to change, that big flat map that everyone got wrong the first few times while skinning, is indeed modding. If you're changing the game from it's original design to be more customized to what you want. Even if it's adding -w to the end of a launch code.
Still, I never associated with more than a few hundred people in these communities at a time that I know of. I was speaking for myself.
I'm rather certain more than 63,000 Sims 1 players modified their game. Plus that's just one game from that time.
Don't really care if you believe me or not, all I can do is state facts and clear observations of how that past worked.
Are you sure you want to change to that definition of modding though? Because we'd have to bring WOW's 80%+ modders into the picture (certainly 95% of the ones I interacted with.) At which point the idea that modern gamers mod less than older ones sounds even more ridiculous!
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well, when i was young, i have plenty of free time to play games. Now i don't .. so i will not stick with a game if it is not fun right from the start.
Time is too precious. If you call that impatient, so be it. I don't apologize for it. It is my preference and that will be how i vote with my wallet.
I mean I personally modded games, but I went on to become a game tester and later designer, so I'm not the typical gamer when it comes to that stuff.
A generation earlier (there's that damn word again), everyone still grokked DOS, at least. I don't think a claim that a lot of early games were heavily modded is an unreasonable one.
I'd never try to guess a number though...heh.
In some strange masochistic way I miss having to create custom autoexec.bat and config.sys files for old DOS games.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
I'm pretty sure you're a net liar, but that's cool.
Don't really care if you believe me or not, all I can do is state facts and clear observations of how that past worked.
Are you sure you want to change to that definition of modding though? Because we'd have to bring WOW's 80%+ modders into the picture (certainly 95% of the ones I interacted with.) At which point the idea that modern gamers mod less than older ones sounds even more ridiculous!
I'm pretty sure trying to sound cool on the internet is the opposite of facts and clear observations Mr. Game Maker.
You're absolutely crazy if you think the modding community was smaller than 63,000 people or you personally have a very poor scope of things. That's completely off topic though, but I don't think you know what you're typing 90% of the time. There's an observation for you.
But I digress; gamers prior helped to make their game. They participated. Now game companies want players to merely witness and quite frankly that always gets boring fast.
It's not the player's fault. Treating MMORPGs more like seasons of television episodes rather than interactive entertainment is the problem.
You're absolutely crazy if you think the modding community was smaller than 63,000 people or you personally have a very poor scope of things. That's completely off topic though, but I don't think you know what you're typing 90% of the time. There's an observation for you.
But I digress; gamers prior helped to make their game. They participated. Now game companies want players to merely witness and quite frankly that always gets boring fast.
It's not the player's fault. Treating MMORPGs more like seasons of television episodes rather than interactive entertainment is the problem.
No, I'm sure well over 63k Sims players modded now that you've expanded what we're talking about from creating mods to simply using mods. But we're comparing new vs. old players, and a few hundred thousand players using mods in Sims is pretty irrelevant next to millions of WOW players modding (a dramatically higher percentage of total players.)
There's just zero evidence of earlier players modding more (and some evidence for them modding less,) which was your original point of why older players were more patient. Although if we're discussing mod usage (instead of mod creation) we're not really talking about patience anymore, are we?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I am just amazed people cant be happy with any sort of progress. Hell..... Eight to twelve years ago if you wanted an mmorpg fix you would have to play a very limited scope of games. Unless you were willing to try your luck at the Mayalsian games market.(which was fun but problematic back then) With everything that has gone on over the course of the years it's safe to say everyone has been spoiled. I remember when hype wasnt a weapon that would turn a game upside down. Or when you had games that had rewarding features. Ever play a game where a healer got experience for healing/buffing other players?
I guess with the more choices we have in the gaming market the less we feel obligated to stick around. Screw game A I'll go try game B. When game B fails me I got game R. I imagine in the next five to ten years will see the following.
1) Everything dumbed down to the point where even a toddler can get max level, best items, and own in pvp.
2)MMorpgs based on soup commericals or some other bizzare concept.
3) People quitting a game over three seconds of lag or not getting to max level in fifteen minutes with their morning coffee.
Oh well at least my dreamcast will never fail me....
i dont think impatience. i think a lot of gamers a chasing the high they got from their first mmo. they buy into any kind of hype and get close to the euphoria they have been looking for. but when they get into the game and realize the drugs they just bought are completly different than what they are used to or wanted. so they quit, have some fit about it, pointing the blame at evveryone but themselves (because that's what addicts do) and storm off, only to search for the next game that slightly resembles the methadone clynic they once knew and loved.
I'm sure a lot of people will disagree, but I think MMO's need to get rid of the current trend of ultra fast leveling. But provide content to engage us during the LONG ride to max level. It'd make those mid-level dungeons more meaningful and people will become more attached to their character after the long road.
Maybe unlock a "fast leveling" buff for alts once you have a character at max level.
You can still have "end-game"...but hopefully people aren't reaching it 3 days after release....
i think we are too patient and forgiving. the reason why games suck atm is because people buy almost anything and developers realise this so they make crappy games because it is cheaper and easier. we need to be more demanding and only buy the games that are really good.
I am just amazed people cant be happy with any sort of progress. Hell..... Eight to twelve years ago if you wanted an mmorpg fix you would have to play a very limited scope of games.
Actually that's not true. There were about 14 semi big profile MMORPGs at that time, each one offering something different from the other, each with their own innovations and unique features. Nowadays, you have nothing to pick from, its WoW clones all the way through.
I think part of it is hype. Expectations are unrealistic and games disappoint.
I blame it on publishers driving players into box sales. Over hype the game and people who wouldn't like it (if hype were realistic) buy the box. Then they go "WTF... never doing this again". But of course they do.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Just reading about a hoarde of people quitting Secret World and saying they're done with the game. This has been released for a couple of weeks now. Rift, SWTOR, D3 and a lot of other games have seen similar comments being made them, hell there are even people saying screw GW2 and that they won't go back before it's even friggin launched.
So my question is, are modern gamers just too impatient? I would say 100% of MMOs need time to iron out flaws, rework certain aspects of the game and just grow the thing before it can be considered polished. I know that a game that leaves beta and goes live should have all of these things done in advance, but it wasn't always like that, even WoW needed time to have the game live to gather feedback from players to help improve it. So is it modern gamers at fault (I would suggest that console gamers crossing into MMOs would have a lot less patience than old timers from 10 years ago)? Or should the gaming companies hold off releasing a game until it's 100%?
To answer my own question I think it's importany for a game to get released to open beta asap. We all knows that even a hint of postponing or dragging out release dates can be a death knell for a game. I would also suggest that a company will never know it's near 100% until players actually get in, play the game and give their feedback
Yes, yes they are.
However there is something else going on here. When you release game after game, that is so fundamentally similar in their flaws, one thing happens. People spend less and less time putting up w/ these flaws with each iteration.
Gear grind, and the lack of really solid replayability outside of the gear grind, are features that have plagued MMOs since WoW (and even before). However, very few games seem to be dealing w/ this issue at all. People put up w/ WoW for years, because it was new to most people, most people's friends played it, and it was one of the most polished MMOs ever. After WoW, you had a variety of MMOs getting released. People played LotRO for a few years. Then you had WAR, and Rift, which people put up with for many months to a year. Then you had SWTOR, which people played for a couple months before the masses began leaving. Now you have TSW, and people lasted a couple weeks. See the pattern? It's exponential.
This is why so many of the MMOs coming out this year & next year are trying to get away from the current standard of MMOs. People have played enough MMOs now to be experienced in what they like & dislike about them. It no longer takes people months to find out endgame sucks. They can catch on in a week or two. Furthermore, people are devouring content faster than ever before, as games put more and more emphasis on linear, 1 shot content. The next MMO to release with this same setup, is going to have the exact same problem as TSW. TSW is not a bad game, it may not be worth a subscription, but it's well made, and has a great story. However, it has all the problems a standard MMO has, and it shows.
It's true, MMOs take time to develope and grow. However, I'd say gamers of this genre have a right to be impatient. How many games have dangled the promise of 'just be patient, it'll get better', to only spoon feed us the same crap over & over again. If we want better games, we need to start supporting better games over the ones that have the gimmicks, the flare, etc. Most studios (especially ones struggling financially) will use tactics they know sell. This doesn't make for a better game.
I, for one, don't need to wait a month to be able to tell if an MMO is going to be good or not. I can spot that by giving a critical eye to the game's base mechanics. By seeing what the game is trying to achieve (and design is all about intent. How do you want people to play your game?), I can pretty clearly tell the direction a game is going to head in, unless it's one of those rare games that has a truly unique game design.
Why though: Simply. We are spoiled by a large amount of choice. As we have more and more choice we become more and more impatient. We are spiled little brats now that seek some perfect game that never will exist because WE would never let it (if it were possible of course). So long as we have so many choices, theres just no reason to stay in one place. Thus the unrealistic expectations of new MMos.
Furthermore, people are devouring content faster than ever before, as games put more and more emphasis on linear, 1 shot content.
Devs play into the desire for fast progression. Then they can't produce content that lasts for more than two weeks and it takes a year's work to crank out a reasonably polished expansion.
What's there to do for the other 50 weeks? Some run the new standard of daily repeatable quests because the content doesn't ever expire for a character until they out level it. This might work, but I often read posts from players who despise dailies, so I'm not sure if that's a solution at all.
As mentioned, add in limited replayability and boring (been there dont that) endgame and there isn't much to keep players involved for the long term.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Why though: Simply. We are spoiled by a large amount of choice. As we have more and more choice we become more and more impatient. We are spiled little brats now that seek some perfect game that never will exist because WE would never let it (if it were possible of course). So long as we have so many choices, theres just no reason to stay in one place. Thus the unrealistic expectations of new MMos.
Whaaa? We have less choice in MMOs now than ever before.
I would argue companies are to impatient for profits ever quarter. I do music and most software companies pump out what seem to be beta builds these day's. Even console games always need patching. New smart phone every few months that is as redundant as the last etc.... Look at how many fps games are coming out this holiday season, how many of the practically same thing do we need. Ea's putting out a new medal of honor that will have to compete with a new cod and halo, what are they thinking. Even tsw which I think is a great game,got my box could have used more time in the oven in a big way. A little more elbow grease in combat and making sure the quest really work all the time aswell as the cc. Could have been a 9 easy. I'm almost done with he whole game after two weeks so I'm taking a break but havent outright quit the game. To many options lead to less satisfaction. The paradox of choice.....
These games keep the same mistakes. They dont actually improve.
SWTOR and The Secret World. I played Swtor and The secret world;
No effect on the world. Cant build, destroy, change terrain, own, manage. Players should be in complete control. From building a house, a road, destroying one, making a bridge, destroying one, removing the flow of a lake, creating an industry, employing others, etc.
All the land, terrain in MMORPGs is not affected by players. Cant dig a hole. Cant make a mountain, or a moat.
All the buildings are pointless. Cant destroy them, cant decide where to place them. Its not just "housing". Housing is 1% of what I want.
No effect on other players. Everyone is in their invisible unjustifiable bubble. Cant get hurt, cant get blocked, cant get pushed, cant get stolen, cant get anything. PEOPLE ARE IMUNE TO OTHER PEOPLE. The gaming industry went on the wrong direction.
There can be no true conflict, emotions, bets, trusts, friendship if people cant murder, maim, betray, grief each other. GET THIS ON YOUR HEAD PEOPLE.
THERE IS NO POINT IF THE ONLY EVIL CHOICES I CAN MAKE ARE SCRIPTED BY THE DEVELOPER AND SUGAR COATED AND ITS EFFECTS LIMITED TO PROTECT OTHERS.
Want me to mass murder thousands of targets in the game every day in all games, but cant do anything to another player? Cant even indirectly affect another player through affecting a quest he does? Cant even indirectly affect another player by territorial control, or affecting the world?
Same twitchless physicless impactless combat, automatic targetting. No real evasion, no real aim, no real action, no real emotion, just sandwich combat (play while eating a sandwich). WATCHING COOLDOWNS.
Same lifeless stationary npcs.
Same inorganic/ridiculous quests. In Secret World and SWTOR everyone is COMPLETING THE SAME QUESTS OVER AND OVER. As if people were phased in existance, but regarding their effects on the world through their actions on quests, everyone is in their alternate reality.
There is no freedom in how to complete, on how to report the quest, how to affect others potentially doing the same quest. I want to be able to CAUSE EFFECT, THE EFFECTS I CHOOSE TO CAUSE, WHEN I CHOOSE TO.
I dont want to follow a script. I WANT TO ROLE PLAY THE CHARACTER THE WAY I WANT. I WANT THE GAME TO GIVE ME FREEDOM TO DO SO. WITH FREEDOM AND TOOLS I MAKE A MUCH BETTER STORY, A MUCH MORE ENTERTAINING ONE, ONE THAT DOES HAVE LONGEVITY. I DONT WANT HAPPY ENDINGS. I DONT WANT SAFETY. I DONT WANT CERTAINTIES.
Same stupid power pyramidal power progression. Over 9000. You get numbers, that dont make sense.
Same ridiculous MASS MURDERING GAMEPLAY. YOU PLAY A MURDERER IN ANY GAME YOU PLAY. Even when it makes no sense.
No measure of realism. Items spawn on bodies. You kill hundreds of enemies per day, you clear an area, few minutes later, surprise! MORE LIFE APPEARED OUT OF NOWHERE. AND OVER AND OVER.
No thought, feeling, emotion present except "Excitement". Games dont design upon giving you a wide spectrum of reaction. So you just blow things up, act like an ass, get more powerfull, richer, kill things. IN A GAME WHERE ITS SUPPOSED TO BE A VIRTUAL REPRESENTATION OF REALITY.
Core design focused on Balance ruins games. Balance is an ilusion, it is a rare consequence of situations. Stop trying to design games to set specific experiences of competitivenes. Core design has to be focused on Freedom. Fuck balance.
Quests dont make sense, remove them.
Anything non combat, does not have an enticing gameplay, it doesnt even have a gameplay.
If I lock a pick,I want a gameplay representation of the actual act of lockpicking. If Im hacking something, I want an actual gameplay representation of the actual hacking. I WANT AN ACTUAL GAMEPLAY FOR SKILL/ACTIVITY. Go work you lazy bastards if you want my money. Stop making mediocre uninspired clones. NO ANIMUS IN MAKING OF THE GAME.
Everything has to be subject of receiving effect. World, players, NPCs.
Any kind of social, political, legal structure must be alterable by the players.
Spawns dont make sense, remove them.
Limitations on choices in equipment, classes, progression, etc dont make sense.
The whole SCHOOL OF THOUGHT OF DESIGN DECISIONS ON MMORPGS went downhill. Ultima Online was an MMORPG, everything else that derived from Everquest and then only got diluted, clipped, plastified is not good enough.
So, yeah, I play The Secret World for 2 days and Swtor for 2 days and I saw hundreds of design decisions. Swotor got 500 million dollars investment and DONT EVEN GET SOMEONE WITH INSIGHT TO REALIZE you cant even fight from your speeder. In Mount and Blade there is a Star Wars mod that allow you to fight from your speeder.
These people are not making real games. I dont know what they are selling. They are selling interactive movies.
Comments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxT
Any generation talking about any other generation is so full of hyperbole and self-congratulation. Rediculous.
You're on a roll today.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This sounds an awful lot like... .. . "Back in my days..." I think you just pointed out the third constant after death and taxes.
This have been a good conversation
Yes the world has gone to hell. I can't wait till my generation are the ones in Congress crapping all over these pony loving entitlement brats.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
They are impatient .. but "too" impatient?
We are talking about entertainment here, right? Not work, not career, not family life.
I don't see why we should not enjoy entertainment anyway we want. It is not like we don't have plenty of entertainment to choose from.
There's nothing wrong with ponies.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Don't really care if you believe me or not, all I can do is state facts and clear observations of how that past worked.
Are you sure you want to change to that definition of modding though? Because we'd have to bring WOW's 80%+ modders into the picture (certainly 95% of the ones I interacted with.) At which point the idea that modern gamers mod less than older ones sounds even more ridiculous!
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
No. Not impatient. They have higher standards. More unforgiving maybe.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Well, when i was young, i have plenty of free time to play games. Now i don't .. so i will not stick with a game if it is not fun right from the start.
Time is too precious. If you call that impatient, so be it. I don't apologize for it. It is my preference and that will be how i vote with my wallet.
In some strange masochistic way I miss having to create custom autoexec.bat and config.sys files for old DOS games.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I'm pretty sure trying to sound cool on the internet is the opposite of facts and clear observations Mr. Game Maker.
You're absolutely crazy if you think the modding community was smaller than 63,000 people or you personally have a very poor scope of things. That's completely off topic though, but I don't think you know what you're typing 90% of the time. There's an observation for you.
But I digress; gamers prior helped to make their game. They participated. Now game companies want players to merely witness and quite frankly that always gets boring fast.
It's not the player's fault. Treating MMORPGs more like seasons of television episodes rather than interactive entertainment is the problem.
a yo ho ho
No, I'm sure well over 63k Sims players modded now that you've expanded what we're talking about from creating mods to simply using mods. But we're comparing new vs. old players, and a few hundred thousand players using mods in Sims is pretty irrelevant next to millions of WOW players modding (a dramatically higher percentage of total players.)
There's just zero evidence of earlier players modding more (and some evidence for them modding less,) which was your original point of why older players were more patient. Although if we're discussing mod usage (instead of mod creation) we're not really talking about patience anymore, are we?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I am just amazed people cant be happy with any sort of progress. Hell..... Eight to twelve years ago if you wanted an mmorpg fix you would have to play a very limited scope of games. Unless you were willing to try your luck at the Mayalsian games market.(which was fun but problematic back then) With everything that has gone on over the course of the years it's safe to say everyone has been spoiled. I remember when hype wasnt a weapon that would turn a game upside down. Or when you had games that had rewarding features. Ever play a game where a healer got experience for healing/buffing other players?
I guess with the more choices we have in the gaming market the less we feel obligated to stick around. Screw game A I'll go try game B. When game B fails me I got game R. I imagine in the next five to ten years will see the following.
1) Everything dumbed down to the point where even a toddler can get max level, best items, and own in pvp.
2)MMorpgs based on soup commericals or some other bizzare concept.
3) People quitting a game over three seconds of lag or not getting to max level in fifteen minutes with their morning coffee.
Oh well at least my dreamcast will never fail me....
i dont think impatience. i think a lot of gamers a chasing the high they got from their first mmo. they buy into any kind of hype and get close to the euphoria they have been looking for. but when they get into the game and realize the drugs they just bought are completly different than what they are used to or wanted. so they quit, have some fit about it, pointing the blame at evveryone but themselves (because that's what addicts do) and storm off, only to search for the next game that slightly resembles the methadone clynic they once knew and loved.
I'm sure a lot of people will disagree, but I think MMO's need to get rid of the current trend of ultra fast leveling. But provide content to engage us during the LONG ride to max level. It'd make those mid-level dungeons more meaningful and people will become more attached to their character after the long road.
Maybe unlock a "fast leveling" buff for alts once you have a character at max level.
You can still have "end-game"...but hopefully people aren't reaching it 3 days after release....
i disagree
i think we are too patient and forgiving. the reason why games suck atm is because people buy almost anything and developers realise this so they make crappy games because it is cheaper and easier. we need to be more demanding and only buy the games that are really good.
Actually that's not true. There were about 14 semi big profile MMORPGs at that time, each one offering something different from the other, each with their own innovations and unique features. Nowadays, you have nothing to pick from, its WoW clones all the way through.
I think part of it is hype. Expectations are unrealistic and games disappoint.
I blame it on publishers driving players into box sales. Over hype the game and people who wouldn't like it (if hype were realistic) buy the box. Then they go "WTF... never doing this again". But of course they do.
Yes, yes they are.
However there is something else going on here. When you release game after game, that is so fundamentally similar in their flaws, one thing happens. People spend less and less time putting up w/ these flaws with each iteration.
Gear grind, and the lack of really solid replayability outside of the gear grind, are features that have plagued MMOs since WoW (and even before). However, very few games seem to be dealing w/ this issue at all. People put up w/ WoW for years, because it was new to most people, most people's friends played it, and it was one of the most polished MMOs ever. After WoW, you had a variety of MMOs getting released. People played LotRO for a few years. Then you had WAR, and Rift, which people put up with for many months to a year. Then you had SWTOR, which people played for a couple months before the masses began leaving. Now you have TSW, and people lasted a couple weeks. See the pattern? It's exponential.
This is why so many of the MMOs coming out this year & next year are trying to get away from the current standard of MMOs. People have played enough MMOs now to be experienced in what they like & dislike about them. It no longer takes people months to find out endgame sucks. They can catch on in a week or two. Furthermore, people are devouring content faster than ever before, as games put more and more emphasis on linear, 1 shot content. The next MMO to release with this same setup, is going to have the exact same problem as TSW. TSW is not a bad game, it may not be worth a subscription, but it's well made, and has a great story. However, it has all the problems a standard MMO has, and it shows.
It's true, MMOs take time to develope and grow. However, I'd say gamers of this genre have a right to be impatient. How many games have dangled the promise of 'just be patient, it'll get better', to only spoon feed us the same crap over & over again. If we want better games, we need to start supporting better games over the ones that have the gimmicks, the flare, etc. Most studios (especially ones struggling financially) will use tactics they know sell. This doesn't make for a better game.
I, for one, don't need to wait a month to be able to tell if an MMO is going to be good or not. I can spot that by giving a critical eye to the game's base mechanics. By seeing what the game is trying to achieve (and design is all about intent. How do you want people to play your game?), I can pretty clearly tell the direction a game is going to head in, unless it's one of those rare games that has a truly unique game design.
Well yes and no because if developers stopped making mmos too easy players wouldn't run through their content that took them 5+ years to create.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
Yes /thread
Why though: Simply. We are spoiled by a large amount of choice. As we have more and more choice we become more and more impatient. We are spiled little brats now that seek some perfect game that never will exist because WE would never let it (if it were possible of course). So long as we have so many choices, theres just no reason to stay in one place. Thus the unrealistic expectations of new MMos.
Devs play into the desire for fast progression. Then they can't produce content that lasts for more than two weeks and it takes a year's work to crank out a reasonably polished expansion.
What's there to do for the other 50 weeks? Some run the new standard of daily repeatable quests because the content doesn't ever expire for a character until they out level it. This might work, but I often read posts from players who despise dailies, so I'm not sure if that's a solution at all.
As mentioned, add in limited replayability and boring (been there dont that) endgame and there isn't much to keep players involved for the long term.
Whaaa? We have less choice in MMOs now than ever before.
I would argue companies are to impatient for profits ever quarter. I do music and most software companies pump out what seem to be beta builds these day's. Even console games always need patching. New smart phone every few months that is as redundant as the last etc.... Look at how many fps games are coming out this holiday season, how many of the practically same thing do we need. Ea's putting out a new medal of honor that will have to compete with a new cod and halo, what are they thinking. Even tsw which I think is a great game,got my box could have used more time in the oven in a big way. A little more elbow grease in combat and making sure the quest really work all the time aswell as the cc. Could have been a 9 easy. I'm almost done with he whole game after two weeks so I'm taking a break but havent outright quit the game. To many options lead to less satisfaction. The paradox of choice.....
These games keep the same mistakes. They dont actually improve.
SWTOR and The Secret World. I played Swtor and The secret world;
No effect on the world. Cant build, destroy, change terrain, own, manage. Players should be in complete control. From building a house, a road, destroying one, making a bridge, destroying one, removing the flow of a lake, creating an industry, employing others, etc.
All the land, terrain in MMORPGs is not affected by players. Cant dig a hole. Cant make a mountain, or a moat.
All the buildings are pointless. Cant destroy them, cant decide where to place them. Its not just "housing". Housing is 1% of what I want.
No effect on other players. Everyone is in their invisible unjustifiable bubble. Cant get hurt, cant get blocked, cant get pushed, cant get stolen, cant get anything. PEOPLE ARE IMUNE TO OTHER PEOPLE. The gaming industry went on the wrong direction.
There can be no true conflict, emotions, bets, trusts, friendship if people cant murder, maim, betray, grief each other. GET THIS ON YOUR HEAD PEOPLE.
THERE IS NO POINT IF THE ONLY EVIL CHOICES I CAN MAKE ARE SCRIPTED BY THE DEVELOPER AND SUGAR COATED AND ITS EFFECTS LIMITED TO PROTECT OTHERS.
Want me to mass murder thousands of targets in the game every day in all games, but cant do anything to another player? Cant even indirectly affect another player through affecting a quest he does? Cant even indirectly affect another player by territorial control, or affecting the world?
Same twitchless physicless impactless combat, automatic targetting. No real evasion, no real aim, no real action, no real emotion, just sandwich combat (play while eating a sandwich). WATCHING COOLDOWNS.
Same lifeless stationary npcs.
Same inorganic/ridiculous quests. In Secret World and SWTOR everyone is COMPLETING THE SAME QUESTS OVER AND OVER. As if people were phased in existance, but regarding their effects on the world through their actions on quests, everyone is in their alternate reality.
There is no freedom in how to complete, on how to report the quest, how to affect others potentially doing the same quest. I want to be able to CAUSE EFFECT, THE EFFECTS I CHOOSE TO CAUSE, WHEN I CHOOSE TO.
I dont want to follow a script. I WANT TO ROLE PLAY THE CHARACTER THE WAY I WANT. I WANT THE GAME TO GIVE ME FREEDOM TO DO SO. WITH FREEDOM AND TOOLS I MAKE A MUCH BETTER STORY, A MUCH MORE ENTERTAINING ONE, ONE THAT DOES HAVE LONGEVITY. I DONT WANT HAPPY ENDINGS. I DONT WANT SAFETY. I DONT WANT CERTAINTIES.
Same stupid power pyramidal power progression. Over 9000. You get numbers, that dont make sense.
Same ridiculous MASS MURDERING GAMEPLAY. YOU PLAY A MURDERER IN ANY GAME YOU PLAY. Even when it makes no sense.
No measure of realism. Items spawn on bodies. You kill hundreds of enemies per day, you clear an area, few minutes later, surprise! MORE LIFE APPEARED OUT OF NOWHERE. AND OVER AND OVER.
No thought, feeling, emotion present except "Excitement". Games dont design upon giving you a wide spectrum of reaction. So you just blow things up, act like an ass, get more powerfull, richer, kill things. IN A GAME WHERE ITS SUPPOSED TO BE A VIRTUAL REPRESENTATION OF REALITY.
Core design focused on Balance ruins games. Balance is an ilusion, it is a rare consequence of situations. Stop trying to design games to set specific experiences of competitivenes. Core design has to be focused on Freedom. Fuck balance.
Quests dont make sense, remove them.
Anything non combat, does not have an enticing gameplay, it doesnt even have a gameplay.
If I lock a pick,I want a gameplay representation of the actual act of lockpicking. If Im hacking something, I want an actual gameplay representation of the actual hacking. I WANT AN ACTUAL GAMEPLAY FOR SKILL/ACTIVITY. Go work you lazy bastards if you want my money. Stop making mediocre uninspired clones. NO ANIMUS IN MAKING OF THE GAME.
Everything has to be subject of receiving effect. World, players, NPCs.
Any kind of social, political, legal structure must be alterable by the players.
Spawns dont make sense, remove them.
Limitations on choices in equipment, classes, progression, etc dont make sense.
The whole SCHOOL OF THOUGHT OF DESIGN DECISIONS ON MMORPGS went downhill. Ultima Online was an MMORPG, everything else that derived from Everquest and then only got diluted, clipped, plastified is not good enough.
So, yeah, I play The Secret World for 2 days and Swtor for 2 days and I saw hundreds of design decisions. Swotor got 500 million dollars investment and DONT EVEN GET SOMEONE WITH INSIGHT TO REALIZE you cant even fight from your speeder. In Mount and Blade there is a Star Wars mod that allow you to fight from your speeder.
These people are not making real games. I dont know what they are selling. They are selling interactive movies.