A lot of the manifesto seems to be about a different game, in retrospect.
Bosses do respawn in GW2. Even when they're from dynamic events, I've been in areas where I've seen the same event happen three or four times just while I was filling up the heart.
That thing about centaurs just standing there and you get a quest to kill ten - I've done that quest. In GW2. It was called an event but it worked exactly like this. They were not attacking - that had already happened before. But that doesn't change anything if I'm not there to see it.
I swung a sword, again, hey again - same in GW2. Even with auto attack! So you don't have to swing the sword manually anymore... gee that's great *yawn*
I could go on but the truth is I get bored just thinking about GW2.
They were there either because it is their encampment or because they already killed everyone and took the village.
They have a reason to be there.
And when they are in their encampments you can see centaurs going on patrols.
It is very interesting to just pass by some zone and see all the original dwellers dead.
I think he's talking about the level 6-7 Centaur Heart Task just outside the keep where the big battle happens in the human intro event. Yeah, the design there is a little lazy, but you have to remember that the starter zones need to provide content for a rush of masses of people, so there will be a lot of content that is more static and repeats more often.
Even in that area, there are other things that can happen. If the centaurs are sufficiently beaten up by the players, an Arms Master from the fort will spawn an escort Event to retrieve weapons from the old armory. If players succeed and the NPC makes it to the armory and back, for a while he will become a vendor selling some decent low level gear fairly cheap.
If the players don't do a good job at keeping the centaurs in check, the Centaurs will build Trebuchets and spawn a Dynamic Event where they attack the fort and players need to destroy the Trebuchets. If players fail to destroy the trebuchets in time, a Centaur boss will spawn as part of another DE.
So, I'd remind people that a.) Lower level content is more static and repetative, because of the volume of players that filter through those areas and b.) Because of the nature of Dynamic Events, you can't assume that an area doesn't have any, just because you didn't experience them on your play through of the area.
The key is balance between too often and too infrequent. The fact that someone can complain about events repeating, while also then claiming there are no events in an area where there actually are events I think shows that there is such a balance.
People really need to set their cynicism aside and play the game. Getting to level 7 is not extensive play time experience. The game gains more depth as you progress and event chains become more complex. In 125 hours of play, I still didn't manage to see even 40% of the world space that was available to us in the events and, given the nature of the DEs, probably didn't experience more than 10-15% of the available PvE content! We also had access to less than half the game.
I have no problem seeing myself getting well over 1,000 hours of game play from the game during year one, not even including the free content that they will be adding on a regular basis. The game is massive, immersive and fun. Not much more you can ask from an MMO and an even better value for <$60 and no subscription fee!
There is not such thing as playing it wrong. Tell me from what he said how is he playing the game wrong?
He said the hearts are the core of the game and they're not. DE's are the core of the game. If you only look for the hearts and they bore you, it's no one's fault but the player's that they're bored. The end.
Mostly. I am a head-over-heels-in-love-with-this-game sort of poster. To be honest though, much of what I love about the game is not referenced in it now that I listen again. Much of the Manifesto is too dependant on preference to say "YES! They succeded!"
It comes down to two major points in my opinion:
1) We want to innovate in the genre.
I say they hit this in spades. Many will see some of these changes as evolution rather than revolution. Its a fine line, but the big innovation was changing the goals in designing the game. Focusing on Fun. Focusing of player co-operation. All the small elements that, while not innovative in and of themselves, where implemented in a very impressive package. Not to mention designing an MMO without the holyh trinity and the core leveling system being DE's rather than quests are HUGE innovations.
2) We want the player to feel that s/he matters in the world.
Here is where they stumbled IMHO. While its true that the opening zones have DE's firing off much faster than normal, from 1-20 I never felt that I was making a defining impact on the world. To do that would require far to much development for sure, but it remains that I never felt that DE's were a way to make my mark, only the gate to the next event.
Despite this, I still love the DE system, just not for the reasons they told me. That seems to hold true for the game. I love it to death so far, but not for the reasons in the Manifesto.
I love the game, but from my play experience, I can support this criticism. I never really did feel like I was changing the world with DEs just because they have such a short reset timer...you may change the world for 5 minutes, and sure it's rewarding, but it's clear that your changes are extremely temporary.
That said...I love the DE system for different reasons much like you. Main reason being that I think it really helps that "you never know what is going to happen" feeling. I am way more excited to explore the world of GW2 simply because I feel like I could stumble upon, or even trigger a DE at any moment. It makes it so much more exciting. That's just one reason though...there are many other reasons why I like it...changing the world is just not really one of them .
I suspect that as players reach higher-level zones that they will begin to see dynamic events that have much more significant consequences for the zone, and for the player experience, culminating in Orr.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
I love the game, but from my play experience, I can support this criticism. I never really did feel like I was changing the world with DEs just because they have such a short reset timer...you may change the world for 5 minutes, and sure it's rewarding, but it's clear that your changes are extremely temporary.
That said...I love the DE system for different reasons much like you. Main reason being that I think it really helps that "you never know what is going to happen" feeling. I am way more excited to explore the world of GW2 simply because I feel like I could stumble upon, or even trigger a DE at any moment. It makes it so much more exciting. That's just one reason though...there are many other reasons why I like it...changing the world is just not really one of them .
Exactly. What I like about DE's is that it is a key compnent to:
Playing with friends
Exploring the world
Keeping content updates fresh and simple to effect
These are much more important to me that the impact I make on the world.
Originally posted by Purgatus 2) We want the player to feel that s/he matters in the world. Here is where they stumbled IMHO. While its true that the opening zones have DE's firing off much faster than normal, from 1-20 I never felt that I was making a defining impact on the world. To do that would require far to much development for sure, but it remains that I never felt that DE's were a way to make my mark, only the gate to the next event.
Ye i have to agree that at low level especially the first starting zone it was all about zerging, but honestly playing quiet high in later zones this went totally away in the lv15 to 35 zones i played in the BWE2, and you do fell like having a lot more impact on what is happening, and you get a lot more involved to. You also learn how to "read" the DE, and begin to trigger some by yourself, and learn to follow them and understand what they are about and listen to the story they tell you. I'm pretty sure in later level when we'll be able to figure out the meta events it will be even better.
i also felt the "zergyness" go away in higher lvl zones. but i think it was becasue they were far fewer people that got to that lvl.
I suspect that as players reach higher-level zones that they will begin to see dynamic events that have much more significant consequences for the zone, and for the player experience, culminating in Orr.
While I hope this is so, I won't be trying to pass that hope off to others when my experiences tell me otherwise. It will be great if this is the case, but so far , from the preview events, this is how it feels. And I feel that its totally viable to base a judgment of a game from the frist few Hours/Levels. If the dev does not draw me in and help me understand what is spoecial abou tthe game, I should not have to play through content to get to the "good" part.
I didnt take it from Tera, and I wont take it from GW2.
Mostly. I am a head-over-heels-in-love-with-this-game sort of poster. To be honest though, much of what I love about the game is not referenced in it now that I listen again. Much of the Manifesto is too dependant on preference to say "YES! They succeded!"
It comes down to two major points in my opinion:
1) We want to innovate in the genre.
I say they hit this in spades. Many will see some of these changes as evolution rather than revolution. Its a fine line, but the big innovation was changing the goals in designing the game. Focusing on Fun. Focusing of player co-operation. All the small elements that, while not innovative in and of themselves, where implemented in a very impressive package. Not to mention designing an MMO without the holyh trinity and the core leveling system being DE's rather than quests are HUGE innovations.
2) We want the player to feel that s/he matters in the world.
Here is where they stumbled IMHO. While its true that the opening zones have DE's firing off much faster than normal, from 1-20 I never felt that I was making a defining impact on the world. To do that would require far to much development for sure, but it remains that I never felt that DE's were a way to make my mark, only the gate to the next event.
Despite this, I still love the DE system, just not for the reasons they told me. That seems to hold true for the game. I love it to death so far, but not for the reasons in the Manifesto.
Player Impact starts to become more and more obvious as you progress deeper into the game. Gendarran Fields, the level 25-35 zone, starts to deliver on this, with some major settlements that can be ransacked and claimed by bandits or centaurs, where there are complex, interwoven DEs that contribute to the state of the friendy and hostile forces in the zone.
There are some similar experiences, on a smaller scale, to be had even in the level12-25 range, so you may just have missed them. I played an extreme number of hours and still feel I've just scratched the surface of the game, so it's not hard to see how people might miss out on these things with less extensive play time.
This is one thing I love about the game. Things continue to improve as you play and the experiences become more rewarding. There is a genuine sense of exploration and immersion and my path to level 35 may be very, very different than your path to level 35. Not just because there are many paths to take, but because you can tread the same path and experience different events than the time before.
Well for the most part what they have done is disguised the grind behind the heart/dynamic event system which to be honest works pretty well if all you do is wander around the map exploring and doing dynamic events where they appear and sticking around to follow each event chain. Do that and you can pretty much ignore that all you are doing is kill X or collect Y. If you go to a heart complete it, then move to the next heart and complete that etc it will still seem somewhat grindy.
Point 2: Player decision impact on the world in a permanent way,
They made this point a couple of time, e.g. rescuing a village that stays rescued, player choices impacting on the world in a permanent way, and bosses not respawning every 10 mins. After 4 beta weekends I've yet to find anything that shows this. There may be something in the personal story, but throughout the world the dynamic events repeat themselves over and over so yes you may rescue a village, but it will be attacked again in 15mins or so.
That seems to be most of what is in their manifesto, the rest of the video is showcasing the game's various locations and classes.
All in all, I'd say they have failed to live up to the Manifesto, the game is still a grind to level 80 and nothing you do seems to have any permanent effect on the world.
Not to say it's not a good game and I'll certainly be buying it but it's doesn't match up to what was promised in that video.
I suspect that as players reach higher-level zones that they will begin to see dynamic events that have much more significant consequences for the zone, and for the player experience, culminating in Orr.
While I hope this is so, I won't be trying to pass that hope off to others when my experiences tell me otherwise. It will be great if this is the case, but so far , from the preview events, this is how it feels. And I feel that its totally viable to base a judgment of a game from the frist few Hours/Levels. If the dev does not draw me in and help me understand what is spoecial abou tthe game, I should not have to play through content to get to the "good" part.
I didnt take it from Tera, and I wont take it from GW2.
It's fine, if you don't like the first couple hours then maybe this game isn't for you.
I had the same feeling in Tera and TSW.
Not everyone is going to like the design and that can't be helped.
However, if you haven't read up on Orr you might want to do so, it's an example of a "higher stakes" zone that the developers talked about in terms of end-game. Based on my personal experience through three zones ( I got to level 35), I saw much larger and longer-lasting DEs, so I believe that consequences will ratchet up as you progress.
No, you will not change the world in a permanent way, this isn't a single-player game.
I would agree that you shouldn't have to get through the bad stuff to get to the good, "bad stuff" obviously being subjective.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Player Impact starts to become more and more obvious as you progress deeper into the game. Gendarran Fields, the level 25-35 zone, starts to deliver on this, with some major settlements that can be ransacked and claimed by bandits or centaurs, where there are complex, interwoven DEs that contribute to the state of the friendy and hostile forces in the zone.
There are some similar experiences, on a smaller scale, to be had even in the level12-25 range, so you may just have missed them. I played an extreme number of hours and still feel I've just scratched the surface of the game, so it's not hard to see how people might miss out on these things with less extensive play time.
This is one thing I love about the game. Things continue to improve as you play and the experiences become more rewarding. There is a genuine sense of exploration and immersion and my path to level 35 may be very, very different than your path to level 35. Not just because there are many paths to take, but because you can tread the same path and experience different events than the time before.
Again, I hope this is so. I just have not seen it myself. Even if it were so, I still love DE's for different reasons, and more importantly, they have not shown that to players at the start of the game IMHO. Players should not have to take it on faith that "things will get better."
The people that are saying no because its a fantasy game, its not the games fault that you don't like fantasy setting. Thats like me saying Swtor was terrible because I hate Star Wars.
It's fine, if you don't like the first couple hours then maybe this game isn't for you.
I had the same feeling in Tera and TSW.
Not everyone is going to like the design and that can't be helped.
However, if you haven't read up on Orr you might want to do so, it's an example of a "higher stakes" zone that they talked about in terms of end-game. And i believe that the stakes will get higher as you progress through zones. I saw it myself working through 3 zones during the BWE.
However, I would agree that you shouldn't have to get through the bad stuff to get to the good, "bad stuff" obviously being subjective.
I adore this game. To me, its the best MMO I have ever played (so far as I have played it.) I have read up on ORR and how they have ZERO heart areas and all interlinking DE's. But as a gamer, I'll belive it when I see it. It may be everything they claim, or it could be entirely different.
This thread is about how well we felt the Manifesto was achieved (if at all.) I would argue that we could not base that off of any but what we experienced.
Reserving judgement for now, I played in the BWE's but I don't think those can give a fair reflection of what the game offers, but I've purchased it already & look forward to launch.
My initial impressions however were not great, it felt very "Zergy" and I did not get a sense of role or of making a difference at all, the way the story is depicted in the personal quest dialogues felt awkward & some of the dialogue was especially clumsy, the Norn saying a lot of crap about his "legend" is just one type that truly grated, terrible writing in my opinion it felt like it was written by an Asian & translated into fifth grader. The voice acting is great but stumbles because of this kind of clumsy over-dramatic writing style.
Hopefully deeper in, the game gets more of a class-definition that you build yourself, if it continues to feel limp & generic I'll not be playing it, hopefully that writing gains some brains later on too & drops the clumsy over-dramatics.
I suspect that as players reach higher-level zones that they will begin to see dynamic events that have much more significant consequences for the zone, and for the player experience, culminating in Orr.
While I hope this is so, I won't be trying to pass that hope off to others when my experiences tell me otherwise. It will be great if this is the case, but so far , from the preview events, this is how it feels. And I feel that its totally viable to base a judgment of a game from the frist few Hours/Levels. If the dev does not draw me in and help me understand what is spoecial abou tthe game, I should not have to play through content to get to the "good" part.
I didnt take it from Tera, and I wont take it from GW2.
I was hooked on the game based on the early levels. IMO they are more fun, as introductory content, than what we find in other games. The only way people might be disappointed would be if they expect the intro content to present complex event chains and other elements that promise to make GW2 a unique experience in the genre.
In most MMOs, by the time you reach level 5, you have a very good idea what the rest of the game will be like. The mobs will look different. They will be tougher and hit harder. The scenery will change, but it will just be the same experience with a different appearance.
In GW2, Dynamic Events get better and more complex as you progress. The AI becomes sharper, the types of skills and tactics you will encounter from mobs become more interesting and advanced. The impact that the player can have on the world becomes more and more obvious.
So, no, you can't jusdge the meat of this game based on a few levels of play. It starts out good and gets better. This is a good thing for extended game play, but it does present the danger that some people will give up too quickly. On the plus side, with no subscription fee, peoople who some how fail to get hooked on the first try can always return when they start to hear from others how fun the game is as you progress and how much depth it offers.
No need to cancel a subscription fee and sever all ties from the game, just because things just didn't click for someone on the first try!
BTW, I would also like to stress that I found some professions much more fun to play and more befitting my play style than others. It's hard to give absolute suggestions on profession, because there is a lot of variation is what professions various people love and hate. However, if things just don't feel very fun or exciting or natural, from a game play perspective, it can be very fruitful to play another profession. For me, personally, if Mesmer had been my only exposure to the game, I would have had to knock my opinion of the game down a couple notches. Playing as a Elementalist, Warrior or Melee Ranger, I couldn't get enough of the game!
Player Impact starts to become more and more obvious as you progress deeper into the game. Gendarran Fields, the level 25-35 zone, starts to deliver on this, with some major settlements that can be ransacked and claimed by bandits or centaurs, where there are complex, interwoven DEs that contribute to the state of the friendy and hostile forces in the zone.
I got to that zone in BW2 and didn't see anything where players could have a permanent effect on the world (which was the point made in the Manifesto). Yes some major settlements can be captured by centaurs and you can retake them. If you leave though they are soon overrun again so the next group of players coming along can retake them.
By comparrison, WoW with its phasing mechanics allowed for a more permanent change to the world.
I did see a few events that try to do what they claim in the manifesto. An early example is the bandits poisoning the water supply if you fail to stop them (which you will fail because the DE is crafted so that the players will always fail). When you fail the world changes. The people in the starting village start complaining they are sick and something is wrong with the water supply. The sprinklers over the farms start spewing out poisoned water and so forth. The problem is that when you save the water supply it doesn't stay saved, that event repeats itself over and over.
GW2 does do a very good job of showing quests impacting on the world, but it just isn't anything permanent. You can save a hundred villages or slay a thousand evil giants and the village will still get attacked again and another giant will still appear to come and attack.
IMO it went beyond anything I was expecting, I've played all the recently released MMOs this year be it beta or free trials and none came close to what GW2 offers. there's so much stuff to do in this game it can become very overwhelming just trying to do them all. that being said sure some might not like the game for various reasons but you have to admit Anet delivered on all they promised so far and I can't wait to see what they have planned for the future.
Originally posted by DanitaKusor Hmm let's see;Point 1: They don't want GW2 to be a grind,Well for the most part what they have done is disguised the grind behind the heart/dynamic event system which to be honest works pretty well if all you do is wander around the map exploring and doing dynamic events where they appear and sticking around to follow each event chain. Do that and you can pretty much ignore that all you are doing is kill X or collect Y. If you go to a heart complete it, then move to the next heart and complete that etc it will still seem somewhat grindy.
Kill, collect, escort, defend and deliver are the staples of any themepark game, your definition of grind applies to every single themepark mmo out there. GW2 at least does a great job of presenting that content in a fresh way.
Originally posted by DanitaKusorPoint 2: Player decision impact on the world in a permanent way,They made this point a couple of time, e.g. rescuing a village that stays rescued, player choices impacting on the world in a permanent way, and bosses not respawning every 10 mins. After 4 beta weekends I've yet to find anything that shows this. There may be something in the personal story, but throughout the world the dynamic events repeat themselves over and over so yes you may rescue a village, but it will be attacked again in 15mins or so.
It's been stated that when Ree Soesbee makes those points she is talking about your personal story, it succeeds at that
Originally posted by DanitaKusor All in all, I'd say they have failed to live up to the Manifesto, the game is still a grind to level 80 and nothing you do seems to have any permanent effect on the world.
Again, I say your calling all content in games a grind. Grind is being forced to repeat the same content over and over again, I leveled to 15 in the starting Sylvari area, didn't repeat any content once.
I suspect that as players reach higher-level zones that they will begin to see dynamic events that have much more significant consequences for the zone, and for the player experience, culminating in Orr.
While I hope this is so, I won't be trying to pass that hope off to others when my experiences tell me otherwise. It will be great if this is the case, but so far , from the preview events, this is how it feels. And I feel that its totally viable to base a judgment of a game from the frist few Hours/Levels. If the dev does not draw me in and help me understand what is spoecial abou tthe game, I should not have to play through content to get to the "good" part.
I didnt take it from Tera, and I wont take it from GW2.
It's fine, if you don't like the first couple hours then maybe this game isn't for you.
I had the same feeling in Tera and TSW.
Not everyone is going to like the design and that can't be helped.
However, if you haven't read up on Orr you might want to do so, it's an example of a "higher stakes" zone that the developers talked about in terms of end-game. Based on my personal experience through three zones ( I got to level 35), I saw much larger and longer-lasting DEs, so I believe that consequences will ratchet up as you progress.
No, you will not change the world in a permanent way, this isn't a single-player game.
I would agree that you shouldn't have to get through the bad stuff to get to the good, "bad stuff" obviously being subjective.
Really even after the poster said they liked DEs but for a different reason? That's sucha "wow clone" kind of thing to say. Maybe then people shouldn't hype the game as being so very superior. I would say if that's the answer then the Manifesto failed big time.
DE's are definitely overblown. They aren't really dynamic if you can figure out how to trigger them. They aren't permanent and don't have a permanent affect on the world as claimed. They are a much more interesting evolution of spawned behavior than what RIFT sports though. I think they sound fun and a great way to make the world feel less static and predictable, but they certainly don't sound like how they've been advertised all along.
But to a lot of us it is superior to everyother mmo out there, so why would we not say what is a fact to us? Its not our fault if you take it as a universal fact, everyone likes different things figure it out for yourself.
It's fine, if you don't like the first couple hours then maybe this game isn't for you.
I had the same feeling in Tera and TSW.
Not everyone is going to like the design and that can't be helped.
However, if you haven't read up on Orr you might want to do so, it's an example of a "higher stakes" zone that they talked about in terms of end-game. And i believe that the stakes will get higher as you progress through zones. I saw it myself working through 3 zones during the BWE.
However, I would agree that you shouldn't have to get through the bad stuff to get to the good, "bad stuff" obviously being subjective.
I adore this game. To me, its the best MMO I have ever played (so far as I have played it.) I have read up on ORR and how they have ZERO heart areas and all interlinking DE's. But as a gamer, I'll belive it when I see it. It may be everything they claim, or it could be entirely different.
This thread is about how well we felt the Manifesto was achieved (if at all.) I would argue that we could not base that off of any but what we experienced.
You're right, all you know is what you have seen/experienced. Developers can claim whatever they want but the proof is actually in what you experience while playing.
At any rate, I wasn't trying to imply anything by my first comment. You had said that you weren't really "drawn in" by the initial experience and I was agreeing that this can happen in some games. I believe that a game should grab you early on and you shouldn't have to "work" for 10 hours to get to something fun.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Originally posted by DanitaKusorpermanent effect on the world
We are talking about mmo here that are played by million of players, be realistic please, if you think they can build a game just for you, the disillusion should go away pretty fast don't you think? (i also thought DE will not repeat at the beginning, so i'm not attacking you, it's more about accepting simple facts)
In any case they did made a step forward in this direction with the DE system, maybe it wasn't visible for you particularly, but i'm sure a lot of people felt this step forward. Sure it might not be that huge in the sense of having a world crafted only for you and your particular character, but it sure is a huge step because it's the only step in computer rpg history since R.Garriot decided that vendors in his games will go to sleep at night and open their shop in the morning. But you probably would need to know a bit about computer rpg history to understand and appreciate that simple "step" and see how "important" it is. I don't think a lot of mmo company even tried to do something here honestly, they sure all claimed though.
I suspect that as players reach higher-level zones that they will begin to see dynamic events that have much more significant consequences for the zone, and for the player experience, culminating in Orr.
While I hope this is so, I won't be trying to pass that hope off to others when my experiences tell me otherwise. It will be great if this is the case, but so far , from the preview events, this is how it feels. And I feel that its totally viable to base a judgment of a game from the frist few Hours/Levels. If the dev does not draw me in and help me understand what is spoecial abou tthe game, I should not have to play through content to get to the "good" part.
I didnt take it from Tera, and I wont take it from GW2.
It's fine, if you don't like the first couple hours then maybe this game isn't for you.
I had the same feeling in Tera and TSW.
Not everyone is going to like the design and that can't be helped.
However, if you haven't read up on Orr you might want to do so, it's an example of a "higher stakes" zone that the developers talked about in terms of end-game. Based on my personal experience through three zones ( I got to level 35), I saw much larger and longer-lasting DEs, so I believe that consequences will ratchet up as you progress.
No, you will not change the world in a permanent way, this isn't a single-player game.
I would agree that you shouldn't have to get through the bad stuff to get to the good, "bad stuff" obviously being subjective.
Really even after the poster said they liked DEs but for a different reason? That's sucha "wow clone" kind of thing to say. Maybe then people shouldn't hype the game as being so very superior. I would say if that's the answer then the Manifesto failed big time.
DE's are definitely overblown. They aren't really dynamic if you can figure out how to trigger them. They aren't permanent and don't have a permanent affect on the world as claimed. They are a much more interesting evolution of spawned behavior than what RIFT sports though. I think they sound fun and a great way to make the world feel less static and predictable, but they certainly don't sound like how they've been advertised all along.
But to a lot of us it is superior to everyother mmo out there, so why would we not say what is a fact to us? Its not our fault if you take it as a universal fact, everyone likes different things figure it out for yourself.
Yeah I agree. IMO, GW2 is superior to every other MMORPG currently out there. I'm sure not everyone will agree, but there it is.
And I really don't care if someone gets offended by the fact that I like the game and state that .
I was hooked on the game based on the early levels. IMO they are more fun, as introductory content, than what we find in other games. The only way people might be disappointed would be if they expect the intro content to present complex event chains and other elements that promise to make GW2 a unique experience in the genre.
In most MMOs, by the time you reach level 5, you have a very good idea what the rest of the game will be like. The mobs will look different. They will be tougher and hit harder. The scenery will change, but it will just be the same experience with a different appearance.
In GW2, Dynamic Events get better and more complex as you progress. The AI becomes sharper, the types of skills and tactics you will encounter from mobs become more interesting and advanced. The impact that the player can have on the world becomes more and more obvious.
So, no, you can't jusdge the meat of this game based on a few levels of play. It starts out good and gets better. This is a good thing for extended game play, but it does present the danger that some people will give up too quickly. On the plus side, with no subscription fee, peoople who some how fail to get hooked on the first try can always return when they start to hear from others how fun the game is as you progress and how much depth it offers.
No need to cancel a subscription fee and sever all ties from the game, just because things just didn't click for someone on the first try!
BTW, I would also like to stress that I found some professions much more fun to play and more befitting my play style than others. It's hard to give absolute suggestions on profession, because there is a lot of variation is what professions various people love and hate. However, if things just don't feel very fun or exciting or natural, from a game play perspective, it can be very fruitful to play another profession. For me, personally, if Mesmer had been my only exposure to the game, I would have had to knock my opinion of the game down a couple notches. Playing as a Elementalist, Warrior or Melee Ranger, I couldn't get enough of the game!
I don't feel you are getting my meaning.
I was also hooked on the game based on early levels. I feel that its one of the great things about it. What it does NOT do, is make me feel like I have made an impact on the world in the early part of the game (in my case levels 1-20). I played all the classes till at least 12.
It is in this aspect, one of the main points of the Manifesto, that I did not feel Anet acheived what they said they would.
Comments
I think he's talking about the level 6-7 Centaur Heart Task just outside the keep where the big battle happens in the human intro event. Yeah, the design there is a little lazy, but you have to remember that the starter zones need to provide content for a rush of masses of people, so there will be a lot of content that is more static and repeats more often.
Even in that area, there are other things that can happen. If the centaurs are sufficiently beaten up by the players, an Arms Master from the fort will spawn an escort Event to retrieve weapons from the old armory. If players succeed and the NPC makes it to the armory and back, for a while he will become a vendor selling some decent low level gear fairly cheap.
If the players don't do a good job at keeping the centaurs in check, the Centaurs will build Trebuchets and spawn a Dynamic Event where they attack the fort and players need to destroy the Trebuchets. If players fail to destroy the trebuchets in time, a Centaur boss will spawn as part of another DE.
So, I'd remind people that a.) Lower level content is more static and repetative, because of the volume of players that filter through those areas and b.) Because of the nature of Dynamic Events, you can't assume that an area doesn't have any, just because you didn't experience them on your play through of the area.
The key is balance between too often and too infrequent. The fact that someone can complain about events repeating, while also then claiming there are no events in an area where there actually are events I think shows that there is such a balance.
People really need to set their cynicism aside and play the game. Getting to level 7 is not extensive play time experience. The game gains more depth as you progress and event chains become more complex. In 125 hours of play, I still didn't manage to see even 40% of the world space that was available to us in the events and, given the nature of the DEs, probably didn't experience more than 10-15% of the available PvE content! We also had access to less than half the game.
I have no problem seeing myself getting well over 1,000 hours of game play from the game during year one, not even including the free content that they will be adding on a regular basis. The game is massive, immersive and fun. Not much more you can ask from an MMO and an even better value for <$60 and no subscription fee!
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
He said the hearts are the core of the game and they're not. DE's are the core of the game. If you only look for the hearts and they bore you, it's no one's fault but the player's that they're bored. The end.
So how did Tera work out for you?
I love the game, but from my play experience, I can support this criticism. I never really did feel like I was changing the world with DEs just because they have such a short reset timer...you may change the world for 5 minutes, and sure it's rewarding, but it's clear that your changes are extremely temporary.
That said...I love the DE system for different reasons much like you. Main reason being that I think it really helps that "you never know what is going to happen" feeling. I am way more excited to explore the world of GW2 simply because I feel like I could stumble upon, or even trigger a DE at any moment. It makes it so much more exciting. That's just one reason though...there are many other reasons why I like it...changing the world is just not really one of them
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Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I suspect that as players reach higher-level zones that they will begin to see dynamic events that have much more significant consequences for the zone, and for the player experience, culminating in Orr.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Exactly. What I like about DE's is that it is a key compnent to:
Playing with friends
Exploring the world
Keeping content updates fresh and simple to effect
These are much more important to me that the impact I make on the world.
millions will disagree.
i also felt the "zergyness" go away in higher lvl zones. but i think it was becasue they were far fewer people that got to that lvl.
While I hope this is so, I won't be trying to pass that hope off to others when my experiences tell me otherwise. It will be great if this is the case, but so far , from the preview events, this is how it feels. And I feel that its totally viable to base a judgment of a game from the frist few Hours/Levels. If the dev does not draw me in and help me understand what is spoecial abou tthe game, I should not have to play through content to get to the "good" part.
I didnt take it from Tera, and I wont take it from GW2.
Double post.
Player Impact starts to become more and more obvious as you progress deeper into the game. Gendarran Fields, the level 25-35 zone, starts to deliver on this, with some major settlements that can be ransacked and claimed by bandits or centaurs, where there are complex, interwoven DEs that contribute to the state of the friendy and hostile forces in the zone.
There are some similar experiences, on a smaller scale, to be had even in the level12-25 range, so you may just have missed them. I played an extreme number of hours and still feel I've just scratched the surface of the game, so it's not hard to see how people might miss out on these things with less extensive play time.
This is one thing I love about the game. Things continue to improve as you play and the experiences become more rewarding. There is a genuine sense of exploration and immersion and my path to level 35 may be very, very different than your path to level 35. Not just because there are many paths to take, but because you can tread the same path and experience different events than the time before.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Hmm let's see;
Point 1: They don't want GW2 to be a grind,
Well for the most part what they have done is disguised the grind behind the heart/dynamic event system which to be honest works pretty well if all you do is wander around the map exploring and doing dynamic events where they appear and sticking around to follow each event chain. Do that and you can pretty much ignore that all you are doing is kill X or collect Y. If you go to a heart complete it, then move to the next heart and complete that etc it will still seem somewhat grindy.
Point 2: Player decision impact on the world in a permanent way,
They made this point a couple of time, e.g. rescuing a village that stays rescued, player choices impacting on the world in a permanent way, and bosses not respawning every 10 mins. After 4 beta weekends I've yet to find anything that shows this. There may be something in the personal story, but throughout the world the dynamic events repeat themselves over and over so yes you may rescue a village, but it will be attacked again in 15mins or so.
That seems to be most of what is in their manifesto, the rest of the video is showcasing the game's various locations and classes.
All in all, I'd say they have failed to live up to the Manifesto, the game is still a grind to level 80 and nothing you do seems to have any permanent effect on the world.
Not to say it's not a good game and I'll certainly be buying it but it's doesn't match up to what was promised in that video.
The Enlightened take things Lightly
It's fine, if you don't like the first couple hours then maybe this game isn't for you.
I had the same feeling in Tera and TSW.
Not everyone is going to like the design and that can't be helped.
However, if you haven't read up on Orr you might want to do so, it's an example of a "higher stakes" zone that the developers talked about in terms of end-game. Based on my personal experience through three zones ( I got to level 35), I saw much larger and longer-lasting DEs, so I believe that consequences will ratchet up as you progress.
No, you will not change the world in a permanent way, this isn't a single-player game.
I would agree that you shouldn't have to get through the bad stuff to get to the good, "bad stuff" obviously being subjective.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Again, I hope this is so. I just have not seen it myself. Even if it were so, I still love DE's for different reasons, and more importantly, they have not shown that to players at the start of the game IMHO. Players should not have to take it on faith that "things will get better."
The people that are saying no because its a fantasy game, its not the games fault that you don't like fantasy setting. Thats like me saying Swtor was terrible because I hate Star Wars.
I adore this game. To me, its the best MMO I have ever played (so far as I have played it.) I have read up on ORR and how they have ZERO heart areas and all interlinking DE's. But as a gamer, I'll belive it when I see it. It may be everything they claim, or it could be entirely different.
This thread is about how well we felt the Manifesto was achieved (if at all.) I would argue that we could not base that off of any but what we experienced.
Reserving judgement for now, I played in the BWE's but I don't think those can give a fair reflection of what the game offers, but I've purchased it already & look forward to launch.
My initial impressions however were not great, it felt very "Zergy" and I did not get a sense of role or of making a difference at all, the way the story is depicted in the personal quest dialogues felt awkward & some of the dialogue was especially clumsy, the Norn saying a lot of crap about his "legend" is just one type that truly grated, terrible writing in my opinion it felt like it was written by an Asian & translated into fifth grader. The voice acting is great but stumbles because of this kind of clumsy over-dramatic writing style.
Hopefully deeper in, the game gets more of a class-definition that you build yourself, if it continues to feel limp & generic I'll not be playing it, hopefully that writing gains some brains later on too & drops the clumsy over-dramatics.
I was hooked on the game based on the early levels. IMO they are more fun, as introductory content, than what we find in other games. The only way people might be disappointed would be if they expect the intro content to present complex event chains and other elements that promise to make GW2 a unique experience in the genre.
In most MMOs, by the time you reach level 5, you have a very good idea what the rest of the game will be like. The mobs will look different. They will be tougher and hit harder. The scenery will change, but it will just be the same experience with a different appearance.
In GW2, Dynamic Events get better and more complex as you progress. The AI becomes sharper, the types of skills and tactics you will encounter from mobs become more interesting and advanced. The impact that the player can have on the world becomes more and more obvious.
So, no, you can't jusdge the meat of this game based on a few levels of play. It starts out good and gets better. This is a good thing for extended game play, but it does present the danger that some people will give up too quickly. On the plus side, with no subscription fee, peoople who some how fail to get hooked on the first try can always return when they start to hear from others how fun the game is as you progress and how much depth it offers.
No need to cancel a subscription fee and sever all ties from the game, just because things just didn't click for someone on the first try!
BTW, I would also like to stress that I found some professions much more fun to play and more befitting my play style than others. It's hard to give absolute suggestions on profession, because there is a lot of variation is what professions various people love and hate. However, if things just don't feel very fun or exciting or natural, from a game play perspective, it can be very fruitful to play another profession. For me, personally, if Mesmer had been my only exposure to the game, I would have had to knock my opinion of the game down a couple notches. Playing as a Elementalist, Warrior or Melee Ranger, I couldn't get enough of the game!
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
I got to that zone in BW2 and didn't see anything where players could have a permanent effect on the world (which was the point made in the Manifesto). Yes some major settlements can be captured by centaurs and you can retake them. If you leave though they are soon overrun again so the next group of players coming along can retake them.
By comparrison, WoW with its phasing mechanics allowed for a more permanent change to the world.
I did see a few events that try to do what they claim in the manifesto. An early example is the bandits poisoning the water supply if you fail to stop them (which you will fail because the DE is crafted so that the players will always fail). When you fail the world changes. The people in the starting village start complaining they are sick and something is wrong with the water supply. The sprinklers over the farms start spewing out poisoned water and so forth. The problem is that when you save the water supply it doesn't stay saved, that event repeats itself over and over.
GW2 does do a very good job of showing quests impacting on the world, but it just isn't anything permanent. You can save a hundred villages or slay a thousand evil giants and the village will still get attacked again and another giant will still appear to come and attack.
The Enlightened take things Lightly
IMO it went beyond anything I was expecting, I've played all the recently released MMOs this year be it beta or free trials and none came close to what GW2 offers. there's so much stuff to do in this game it can become very overwhelming just trying to do them all. that being said sure some might not like the game for various reasons but you have to admit Anet delivered on all they promised so far and I can't wait to see what they have planned for the future.
Kill, collect, escort, defend and deliver are the staples of any themepark game, your definition of grind applies to every single themepark mmo out there. GW2 at least does a great job of presenting that content in a fresh way.
It's been stated that when Ree Soesbee makes those points she is talking about your personal story, it succeeds at that
Again, I say your calling all content in games a grind. Grind is being forced to repeat the same content over and over again, I leveled to 15 in the starting Sylvari area, didn't repeat any content once.But to a lot of us it is superior to everyother mmo out there, so why would we not say what is a fact to us? Its not our fault if you take it as a universal fact, everyone likes different things figure it out for yourself.
You're right, all you know is what you have seen/experienced. Developers can claim whatever they want but the proof is actually in what you experience while playing.
At any rate, I wasn't trying to imply anything by my first comment. You had said that you weren't really "drawn in" by the initial experience and I was agreeing that this can happen in some games. I believe that a game should grab you early on and you shouldn't have to "work" for 10 hours to get to something fun.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
We are talking about mmo here that are played by million of players, be realistic please, if you think they can build a game just for you, the disillusion should go away pretty fast don't you think? (i also thought DE will not repeat at the beginning, so i'm not attacking you, it's more about accepting simple facts)
In any case they did made a step forward in this direction with the DE system, maybe it wasn't visible for you particularly, but i'm sure a lot of people felt this step forward. Sure it might not be that huge in the sense of having a world crafted only for you and your particular character, but it sure is a huge step because it's the only step in computer rpg history since R.Garriot decided that vendors in his games will go to sleep at night and open their shop in the morning. But you probably would need to know a bit about computer rpg history to understand and appreciate that simple "step" and see how "important" it is. I don't think a lot of mmo company even tried to do something here honestly, they sure all claimed though.
Yeah I agree. IMO, GW2 is superior to every other MMORPG currently out there. I'm sure not everyone will agree, but there it is.
And I really don't care if someone gets offended by the fact that I like the game and state that
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Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I don't feel you are getting my meaning.
I was also hooked on the game based on early levels. I feel that its one of the great things about it. What it does NOT do, is make me feel like I have made an impact on the world in the early part of the game (in my case levels 1-20). I played all the classes till at least 12.
It is in this aspect, one of the main points of the Manifesto, that I did not feel Anet acheived what they said they would.