MMO's are considered clones of eachother because there is an insanely large number of over sensitive MMO developers who lack imagination or forward thinking of any kind.
Fixed that for yah
Possibly incorrectly. Blaming Producers would get more support than blaming Joe Dev for doing what he's assigned to do.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I did not say that GW2 and WoW only used exact copies of features from other games. Both took many core features that existed in other games and adapted them in innovative ways.
what did WOW adapt in an innovative way?
Marketing.
They brought a niche product that was mainly looked down upon (MMO Gaming) and made it easily available/attainable for every home.
Also, Mister T
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
Well, they did make solid choices on some EQ-era design to discard. I guess that counts as innovation, indirectly; at least they looked at the same problems and (sometimes) arrived at different answers.
Other companies could do the same--they just need to be willing to evaluate [what exists] for [what we could do better] instead of [copy the best seller, easy].
Then, of course, another company actually has to succeed in doing it better. That's that scary rock in the road that everyone keeps tripping on.
This is a great point. WOW did a great job at "solving" some of the problems that previous MMORPG's had which was a great thing.
Trouble is, their model isn't perfect, it has some problems as well, and until recently (GW2) few MMO developers have bothered to take the time to address the problems the current theme park model has.
They keep making virtually the same game as WOW, with the same problems it introduced over 7 years ago.
Let's hope more titles in the future look at what isn't working so well now and try to improve on it, instead of just copying GW2 for the next 8 years.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
there were many other RPGs that used other styles -- no levels, no classes, use points instead of diceroll for characters
Well, "many" is a bit of an overstatement maybe; there was GURPS..and..uh..Palladium I think? Oh, yah, Hero games systems, weren't very successful for fantasy.
im rusty on the all the games being produced in the 80s, there was pen&paper boom during the same period that black and white indie comics saw a boom in the mid80s (with teenage mutant turtles) but otherwise I agree, "many" have been an overstatement
MMO's are considered clones of eachother because there is an insanely large number of over sensitive MMO developers who lack imagination or forward thinking of any kind.
Fixed that for yah
Possibly incorrectly. Blaming Producers would get more support than blaming Joe Dev for doing what he's assigned to do.
I agree, its an unfortunate state of affairs when marketing suits direct the industry as a whole.
Personally, I think we really need a Sundance-type festival for the gaming industry to showcase indy games/game companies/projects. At the absolute least it would give AAA devs fresh ideas to steal for their new projects
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
This is a great point. WOW did a great job at "solving" some of the problems that previous MMORPG's had which was a great thing.
Trouble is, their model isn't perfect, it has some problems as well, and until recently (GW2) few MMO developers have bothered to take the time to address the problems the current theme park model has.
They keep making virtually the same game as WOW, with the same problems it introduced over 7 years ago.
Let's hope more titles in the future look at what isn't working so well now and try to improve on it, instead of just copying GW2 for the next 8 years.
I might be wrong, but I think Anet has a ton of room to improve in GW2.
It is annoying when one thinks that in 2006-7 Anet was alreadty tinkering with the idea of Dynamic events, but limitations in GW1 engine made them build another game instead.
That is one of the problems of the genre - it takes a considerable amount of time to put out a MMORPG, especially when in these days the player demands good graphics, good physics effects, detailed worlds and a ton of content.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Personally, I think we really need a Sundance-type festival for the gaming industry to showcase indy games/game companies/projects. At the absolute least it would give AAA devs fresh ideas to steal for their new projects
gw2 fans learned early on that calling a new game a WoW clone was the quickest way to rid this forum of any discussion that is not about gw2. most people will follow behind the loudest voice. right now the loudest voice is gw2.
Actually you will find it is the sandbox crowd, not the GW2 fans that go around calling every single themepark game a WoW clone.
To be honest, the only thing that worried me about TESO is that the singleplayer Elder Scrolls games will be neglected. For example, I highly doubt that we will now see games like KOTOR 3, Neverwinter Nights 3, Warcraft IV...so I was concerned that an Elder Scrolls MMO would mean no Elder Scrolls VI.
But, since I read somewhere that the MMO is being done by some other company, unrelated to the SP version, I really can only view TESO as just another random fantasy MMO, no matter whose clone it is.
As most people have said, the developers themselves almost say this is a WoW clone...but that is not necessarily the biggest problem with this game. In my view, a bigger problem is that turning TES into an MMO kills almost all the things that make the franchise stand out and downgrade it to just another fantasy MMO in a setting very similar to all others, in all but name.
Personally, I think we really need a Sundance-type festival for the gaming industry to showcase indy games/game companies/projects. At the absolute least it would give AAA devs fresh ideas to steal for their new projects
Besides name, Guilld Wars 2 is nothing like GW1. WoW is nothing like Warcraft besides name. Not sure how TESO get bashed for not being TES.
Arena Net produced Guild Wars 1 and is producing Guild Wars 2. Blizzard produced Warcraft, Warcraft II, Warcraft III and World of Warcraft.
Bethesda produced the Elder Scrolls. Zenimax Online is producing TESO.
That's fucked up.
To add to this:
As of right now, "The Elder Scrolls" RPGs is the 2nd oldest and still active line of RPGs. The only one older is "Final Fantasy." It has a loyal following, of which I'm happy to be a part of. Me, I've started following TES since "Daggerfall" in the MS-DOS days of PC gaming.
Throughout the years, most especially from "Daggerfall" of the 1990s and to the latest TES title, "Skyrim," they've generally followed these basic tenets:
=====
* Big game world and freedom of travel and adventuring. You are not tethered anywhere at anytime. There are tons and tons of factions to dip in and out of favor with. You start a game, get into the game world, pick a compass direction, and go. And from that point on, you will never, ever be forced to adventure out of anywhere at anytime, and you will never suffer in progression because of it.
* Freedom in building your character. Prior to Skyrim, it was a total skillbased system. Skyrim was different in adopting a Perk / Trait based system, yet it still retained the large amount of freedom in building up your character. If you wanted to be the biggest, baddest warrior in heavy armor and shield there is, you can try to be. If you want to be heavily armored but still heavily using differing forms of magic, you can be. If you want to be a stealthy assassin using advanced forms of alchemy and including specific forms of magic, you can be. In short, prior systems of TES, to include even Skyrim, gave players alot of leeeway in building their characters.
* The game world is your playground. Bethesda tried as much as possible to let you do what you want in the game world. That castle that was once full of daedra and assorted monsters? You cleared it out, cleaned it up, and started bringing loot and items there. You can call it "home." Or Or you can be the biggest thief there is in the game. A goody-two-shoes. Or a murderer. Or an assassin (difference between the last two lol). This is what Bethesda has been best at, IMO, and even BioWare has stated so themselves: Making a big game world for you to live in.
=====
Those are, IMO, the 3 basic tenets on what TES gaming have been about ever since the 1990s. Regardless of the operating system and platform, they have always been heavy into these 3 things. Bethesda has consistently delivered in these things for more than a decade's worth of TES games. This is what they've built their following and reputation on.
When anyone wants to put an Elder Scrolls game and it doesn't follow the long-followed, successful traits of what makes an Elder Scrolls game an Elder Scrolls game, there is going to be a sh*t-storm.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Well looking over this forum's activity, it seem like the community here views TESO as a WoW clone. This come sup in just about every thread.
But what I want to know is how/why is TESO being considered a WoW clone?
How is TESO considered a WoW clone but GW2 isn't?
TESO seems to share many features with GW2, except it has three faction PvP in the world shared by PvE. You still have active dodge and block mechanics like GW2, and you have class system like GW2, and I heard it has events, but not sure to what extent. Also TESO is being backed by some DAoC developers for PvP.
Sounds closest to GW2 than WoW. So how is it a WoW clone but not GW2?
Honesty, where does the WoW come into this at all?
GW 2 is in fact being considered a wow clone....there's even a post this morning about GW2 being the next WoW
As for TESO...you can tell the devs are using WoW for inspiration. This team is not very creative and all their comments about how this or that"cannot be done" just shows you the lack of imagination and ability in the dev room. Not excited.
Dragnon - Guildmaster - Albion Central Bank in Albion Online
Originally posted by MMOExposed Well looking over this forum's activity, it seem like the community here views TESO as a WoW clone. This come sup in just about every thread.
But what I want to know is how/why is TESO being considered a WoW clone?
How is TESO considered a WoW clone but GW2 isn't?
TESO seems to share many features with GW2, except it has three faction PvP in the world shared by PvE. You still have active dodge and block mechanics like GW2, and you have class system like GW2, and I heard it has events, but not sure to what extent. Also TESO is being backed by some DAoC developers for PvP.
Sounds closest to GW2 than WoW. So how is it a WoW clone but not GW2?
Honesty, where does the WoW come into this at all?
Heh, i wouldnt call TESO a WoW clone in the same matter that i wouldnt call any MMORPG. Hell, even calling a SWTOR WoW with the lightsabers is a bit too rude from my point of view. I dont see that anyone calls Battlefield 3 or Call of Duty etc. Wolfenstein 3D clones and it is fine. FPS genre evolved very well so should MMORPG too, and it is a hard path to make.
However, i do look at this game only as a Spin-off of Elder Scrolls game... like the Redguard and Battlespire were. Because, similar to them, there arent many major The Elder Scrolls trademarks (be it First Person View gameplay, which by the way Battlespire do have, custom class system etc.) here other than non-linear gameplay which is well present in 90% of today's MMORPGs and Tamriel setting.
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2 Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
After reading the articles and developer interviews, I am left with the distinct impression that TESO sells out on everything that makes playing the elder scrolls PC games unique in favor of creating a typical WOW like play experience. Developer comments regarding “no new innovative features remain” to explore didn’t stoke me for their potential content either. It reads like the same old tired thing repackaged and sold to me at high cost yet again with slightly prettier graphics. A brand name alone will not carry TESO to success, whatever that really is today.
That’s not enough for me any more. I have been burned too many times on MMORPG purchases over the past year or two and will not preorder or buy until a month or two after release when all the cards really fall into place if I buy at all. I am even cynical about the Hero Engine serving as a white board comments. To me, it sounds like someone trying to weasel out of licensing fees by saying they have done so much work to it that you can’t see its still the same engine underneath the clutter when it really is still the limiting structural frame.
Is it really just another WOW clone? I don’t know. I am going to be waiting on you brave forum goers that buy it to tell me...
I've been playing WoW since launch and have just recently decided it was time to stop. So I went looking for upcoming games to swtich to. I knew GW2 was coming soon but since GW didnt really interest me I just 'sposed GW2 was more of the same so I delved into TESO first.
Whilst listening to the devs for TESO, I don't recall hearing anything that stood out as something I had done in WoW, other than the possibility of something called "raiding". I heard wpn specific abilities, quests from exploration, player-skill based combat and coordinated ability combos (which actually was something EQ2 started with even tho people couldn't handle them in the beginning). When ZMO mentioned release '13 I went looking for something else.
I didn't really feel drawn to any of the game titles coming out or out so I settled on checking out how close to GW, GW2 was going to be(which wasn't much actually). Only I was shocked at how similar it really sounded to what the TESO devs had talked about.
I'd be willing to argue that TESO is closer to a GW2 clone than WoW.
I'm not sure everyone's refering to this game as a WoW clone. It's certainly a heavily instanced themepark, that much I know for certain, and when you compare the mechanical complexities of their single player titles with that of their MMO it certainly seems far more shallow. That's generally where I think the hang up is, with myself particularly and other angry nerds. This isn't a game made for fans of the franchise, the people who excelled and popularized Elder Scrolls into the position of launching a massively multiplayer, but for individuals who don't have any investment within the series. It's a bit cheeky to assume the SRPG fans wouldn't be bothered with the creation of a game so vastly different in philosophy or design, when we've all been wondering to ourselves, "wouldn't it be great if they made the same experience, but allowed other players to share the world?"
(And just for the record, I'm not realistically implying that all fans of the single player series won't like the MMO or find things attractive about the design, but I am imlpying that my experience would leave me to believe otherwise.)
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Comments
Possibly incorrectly. Blaming Producers would get more support than blaming Joe Dev for doing what he's assigned to do.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Marketing.
They brought a niche product that was mainly looked down upon (MMO Gaming) and made it easily available/attainable for every home.
Also, Mister T
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
This is a great point. WOW did a great job at "solving" some of the problems that previous MMORPG's had which was a great thing.
Trouble is, their model isn't perfect, it has some problems as well, and until recently (GW2) few MMO developers have bothered to take the time to address the problems the current theme park model has.
They keep making virtually the same game as WOW, with the same problems it introduced over 7 years ago.
Let's hope more titles in the future look at what isn't working so well now and try to improve on it, instead of just copying GW2 for the next 8 years.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
im rusty on the all the games being produced in the 80s, there was pen&paper boom during the same period that black and white indie comics saw a boom in the mid80s (with teenage mutant turtles) but otherwise I agree, "many" have been an overstatement
EQ2 fan sites
I agree, its an unfortunate state of affairs when marketing suits direct the industry as a whole.
Personally, I think we really need a Sundance-type festival for the gaming industry to showcase indy games/game companies/projects. At the absolute least it would give AAA devs fresh ideas to steal for their new projects
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
I might be wrong, but I think Anet has a ton of room to improve in GW2.
It is annoying when one thinks that in 2006-7 Anet was alreadty tinkering with the idea of Dynamic events, but limitations in GW1 engine made them build another game instead.
That is one of the problems of the genre - it takes a considerable amount of time to put out a MMORPG, especially when in these days the player demands good graphics, good physics effects, detailed worlds and a ton of content.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
isnt that what PAX is?
http://prime.paxsite.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Arcade_Expo
EQ2 fan sites
Actually you will find it is the sandbox crowd, not the GW2 fans that go around calling every single themepark game a WoW clone.
I know that posting things in The Pub gets them more attention, but we've been here before. Please create these threads in their appropriate forums.
Moving thread.
To give feedback on moderation, contact mikeb@mmorpg.com
But, since I read somewhere that the MMO is being done by some other company, unrelated to the SP version, I really can only view TESO as just another random fantasy MMO, no matter whose clone it is.
As most people have said, the developers themselves almost say this is a WoW clone...but that is not necessarily the biggest problem with this game. In my view, a bigger problem is that turning TES into an MMO kills almost all the things that make the franchise stand out and downgrade it to just another fantasy MMO in a setting very similar to all others, in all but name.
I'm not really familiar with PAX but it doesn't look like it
The Penny Arcade Expo (PAX) is a series of gaming festivals held in both Seattle and Boston. PAX was created by Jerry Holkins and Mike Krahulik, the authors of the Penny Arcade webcomic, because they wanted to attend a show that gave equal attention to console gamers, computer gamers, and tabletop gamers
Either way it sounds like a ton of fun though
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
To add to this:
As of right now, "The Elder Scrolls" RPGs is the 2nd oldest and still active line of RPGs. The only one older is "Final Fantasy." It has a loyal following, of which I'm happy to be a part of. Me, I've started following TES since "Daggerfall" in the MS-DOS days of PC gaming.
Throughout the years, most especially from "Daggerfall" of the 1990s and to the latest TES title, "Skyrim," they've generally followed these basic tenets:
=====
* Big game world and freedom of travel and adventuring. You are not tethered anywhere at anytime. There are tons and tons of factions to dip in and out of favor with. You start a game, get into the game world, pick a compass direction, and go. And from that point on, you will never, ever be forced to adventure out of anywhere at anytime, and you will never suffer in progression because of it.
* Freedom in building your character. Prior to Skyrim, it was a total skillbased system. Skyrim was different in adopting a Perk / Trait based system, yet it still retained the large amount of freedom in building up your character. If you wanted to be the biggest, baddest warrior in heavy armor and shield there is, you can try to be. If you want to be heavily armored but still heavily using differing forms of magic, you can be. If you want to be a stealthy assassin using advanced forms of alchemy and including specific forms of magic, you can be. In short, prior systems of TES, to include even Skyrim, gave players alot of leeeway in building their characters.
* The game world is your playground. Bethesda tried as much as possible to let you do what you want in the game world. That castle that was once full of daedra and assorted monsters? You cleared it out, cleaned it up, and started bringing loot and items there. You can call it "home." Or Or you can be the biggest thief there is in the game. A goody-two-shoes. Or a murderer. Or an assassin (difference between the last two lol). This is what Bethesda has been best at, IMO, and even BioWare has stated so themselves: Making a big game world for you to live in.
=====
Those are, IMO, the 3 basic tenets on what TES gaming have been about ever since the 1990s. Regardless of the operating system and platform, they have always been heavy into these 3 things. Bethesda has consistently delivered in these things for more than a decade's worth of TES games. This is what they've built their following and reputation on.
When anyone wants to put an Elder Scrolls game and it doesn't follow the long-followed, successful traits of what makes an Elder Scrolls game an Elder Scrolls game, there is going to be a sh*t-storm.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
GW 2 is in fact being considered a wow clone....there's even a post this morning about GW2 being the next WoWAs for TESO...you can tell the devs are using WoW for inspiration. This team is not very creative and all their comments about how this or that"cannot be done" just shows you the lack of imagination and ability in the dev room. Not excited.
Dragnon - Guildmaster - Albion Central Bank in Albion Online
www.albioncentralbank.enjin.com
because its hteir only MMO experience ...
Heh, i wouldnt call TESO a WoW clone in the same matter that i wouldnt call any MMORPG. Hell, even calling a SWTOR WoW with the lightsabers is a bit too rude from my point of view. I dont see that anyone calls Battlefield 3 or Call of Duty etc. Wolfenstein 3D clones and it is fine. FPS genre evolved very well so should MMORPG too, and it is a hard path to make.
However, i do look at this game only as a Spin-off of Elder Scrolls game... like the Redguard and Battlespire were. Because, similar to them, there arent many major The Elder Scrolls trademarks (be it First Person View gameplay, which by the way Battlespire do have, custom class system etc.) here other than non-linear gameplay which is well present in 90% of today's MMORPGs and Tamriel setting.
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
After reading the articles and developer interviews, I am left with the distinct impression that TESO sells out on everything that makes playing the elder scrolls PC games unique in favor of creating a typical WOW like play experience. Developer comments regarding “no new innovative features remain” to explore didn’t stoke me for their potential content either. It reads like the same old tired thing repackaged and sold to me at high cost yet again with slightly prettier graphics. A brand name alone will not carry TESO to success, whatever that really is today.
That’s not enough for me any more. I have been burned too many times on MMORPG purchases over the past year or two and will not preorder or buy until a month or two after release when all the cards really fall into place if I buy at all. I am even cynical about the Hero Engine serving as a white board comments. To me, it sounds like someone trying to weasel out of licensing fees by saying they have done so much work to it that you can’t see its still the same engine underneath the clutter when it really is still the limiting structural frame.
Is it really just another WOW clone? I don’t know. I am going to be waiting on you brave forum goers that buy it to tell me...
I've been playing WoW since launch and have just recently decided it was time to stop. So I went looking for upcoming games to swtich to. I knew GW2 was coming soon but since GW didnt really interest me I just 'sposed GW2 was more of the same so I delved into TESO first.
Whilst listening to the devs for TESO, I don't recall hearing anything that stood out as something I had done in WoW, other than the possibility of something called "raiding". I heard wpn specific abilities, quests from exploration, player-skill based combat and coordinated ability combos (which actually was something EQ2 started with even tho people couldn't handle them in the beginning). When ZMO mentioned release '13 I went looking for something else.
I didn't really feel drawn to any of the game titles coming out or out so I settled on checking out how close to GW, GW2 was going to be(which wasn't much actually). Only I was shocked at how similar it really sounded to what the TESO devs had talked about.
I'd be willing to argue that TESO is closer to a GW2 clone than WoW.
It's speldt adventure.
What everyone needs to realise here, is that every MMo other than WoW is a WoW-Clone.
WoW was the first MMO, so every MMO that came out after is just trying too hard to be WoW.
this is so WRONG
Hey, you can stop right there buddy.
This as been discussed over and over again, and everyone knows WoW was the first.
Stop living in denial.
i have no idea how old are you, or in which planet you live, but when WoW released i was already playing MMORPGs ...
I think he was being sarcastic.
I'm not sure everyone's refering to this game as a WoW clone. It's certainly a heavily instanced themepark, that much I know for certain, and when you compare the mechanical complexities of their single player titles with that of their MMO it certainly seems far more shallow. That's generally where I think the hang up is, with myself particularly and other angry nerds. This isn't a game made for fans of the franchise, the people who excelled and popularized Elder Scrolls into the position of launching a massively multiplayer, but for individuals who don't have any investment within the series. It's a bit cheeky to assume the SRPG fans wouldn't be bothered with the creation of a game so vastly different in philosophy or design, when we've all been wondering to ourselves, "wouldn't it be great if they made the same experience, but allowed other players to share the world?"
(And just for the record, I'm not realistically implying that all fans of the single player series won't like the MMO or find things attractive about the design, but I am imlpying that my experience would leave me to believe otherwise.)
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)