WAR had 1 billion problems and RR was the only good thing about it.(btw if you didn't like base trading get ready because there will be lots of it in WvW)
Every game that tried world PvP except daoc (and somewhat WAR) failed horribly. Is it coincidence? The RR system is the only one that has worked until now.Are realm ranks overpowered? Yes they are. The only solution that can save WvW is implementing it but greatly reducing the power of realm ranks. Anything else is guaranteed to fail.
There is no base trading in wvw you need to hold onto the bases to get supply. You should correct that piece of misinformation.
Don't bother to correct him.
He thinks you can trade bases in WvWvW.... he doesn't know much about the game.
I honestly don't see the point of WvWing at 80 if there is no rank system. What we learned from DAoC is that "server pride" motivates very few people. 95%+ of players are motivated by personal progression.
guess you never understood quake then eh?
Quake was not a persistent world game with territory control and character progression...Attracts totally different people.
WAR had 1 billion problems and RR was the only good thing about it.(btw if you didn't like base trading get ready because there will be lots of it in WvW)
Every game that tried world PvP except daoc (and somewhat WAR) failed horribly. Is it coincidence? The RR system is the only one that has worked until now.Are realm ranks overpowered? Yes they are. The only solution that can save WvW is implementing it but greatly reducing the power of realm ranks. Anything else is guaranteed to fail.
There is no base trading in wvw you need to hold onto the bases to get supply. You should correct that piece of misinformation.
Don't bother to correct him.
He thinks you can trade bases in WvWvW.... he doesn't know much about the game.
At this point i think he is only trying to troll.
Originally posted by Istavaan
Originally posted by otinanai123
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by otinanai123
Every time I played WvW i really wanted to get that old DAoC RvR feel but instead it gave me the southshore vs tarren mill feel. Guess which one people played for 11 years and which one people got bored with in 1 month. Personal progression is a MUST. It doesn't have to be as overpowered as realm ranks are (maybe smaller passive +stats bonuses per rank?) but it needs to exist or else WvW will be a wasteland 1 month after launch when the casuals go back to WoW.
Er...
You do realize the game has multiple layers of progression, without having RRs. Right?
The game really doesn't need a gear grind, it's kind of amazing that people still refuse to accept this. WAR had RR, and look what that did for it? Instead of the 'epicness' of DAoC's RvR, we basically had base trading on a massive scale.
In WvW there are enough incentives to not only keep people playing for a while, but also for people to hold on to the keeps they already have.
Not sure which server you were playing on, but I can suggest a few that may give you a better experience (not sure if they will change on launch, though, unfortunately). I know of at least 4 servers that had really good WvW, and not once during that time did I see anyone complaining about loot, a lack of a geargrind, or wanted more progression.
I know the game has lvls, but it's still a game focused around horizontal progression. May be a strange concept, but WvW (to a lot of people) is much more about the zone, than it is about you as a character. Different mindset, completely different type of reward.
WAR had 1 billion problems and RR was the only good thing about it.(btw if you didn't like base trading get ready because there will be lots of it in WvW)
Every game that tried world PvP except daoc (and somewhat WAR) failed horribly. Is it coincidence? The RR system is the only one that has worked until now.Are realm ranks overpowered? Yes they are. The only solution that can save WvW is implementing it but greatly reducing the power of realm ranks. Anything else is guaranteed to fail.
There is no base trading in wvw you need to hold onto the bases to get supply. You should correct that piece of misinformation.
I love it when people are trying to teach me things with 6-7 days of RvR/WvW "experience".
I've seen people doing content for years in Asheron's Call for mostly purely cosmetic or decorative items... for fun. The concept just got lost when the EQ clone gear grind model became the norm.
Which is why I firmly believe an Innovative RR/AA system is needed long term. When I say innovative, I mean something that is within the spirit of Anets philosophy and manefesto....i.e. not a power increase.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I've seen people doing content for years in Asheron's Call for mostly purely cosmetic or decorative items... for fun. The concept just got lost when the EQ clone gear grind model became the norm.
Which is why I firmly believe an Innovative RR/AA system is needed long term. When I say innovative, I mean something that is within the spirit of Anets philosophy and manefesto....i.e. not a power increase.
I can agree with that, but that already exists... you can buy "badass" looking gear using various currency earned in WvW, not to mention the achievements/titles.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Wrong there are achievements for WvW i saw it on the achievements i evena made a post on the GW2 forums that the WvW number of kills sound be moved from the Monthly achievements in to the WvW section
I would prefer something more physical (in a virtual sense hah) Achievements and titles have never been a huge deal for me, butsomething that I can physically wear or use is more akin to an RPG to me.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I love it when people are trying to teach me things with 6-7 days of RvR/WvW "experience".
I love it when you don't even know the mechanics of the game you're trolling.
But anyway. See you Nostradamuswannabe at the end of September... when "WvWvW will be a wasteland and people will trade bases like crazy". LOL
Why it'll happen: People care mostly about personal character progression (exp/karma/gold). The fastest and most efficient way to get it is to take keeps and not defending. Some people may care about the "server buffs" for a while but when they see their PvE friends outlevel them hard they'll go back to whatever gives more exp.
How it may happen: there are many different ways. First off I don't think all 3 servers will base trade in a zone(maybe only on the center map). They will probably form pairs per zone. 3 resource camps each to generate enough supply (they won't touch each others) and they will simple circle each other taking keeps (since they give the bigger rewards). Nobody will bother defending because people don't want to stay lowbies forever.
thats an idea I like. Could put a skull and cross-bones next to the name of someone who is on a killing streak. Maybe even give extra xp and loot for killing him. It would be a small change and a nice touch.
WAR had 1 billion problems and RR was the only good thing about it.(btw if you didn't like base trading get ready because there will be lots of it in WvW)
Every game that tried world PvP except daoc (and somewhat WAR) failed horribly. Is it coincidence? The RR system is the only one that has worked until now.Are realm ranks overpowered? Yes they are. The only solution that can save WvW is implementing it but greatly reducing the power of realm ranks. Anything else is guaranteed to fail.
Strawman argument. Those other games failed because they were overall poor games. DAOC was unique in that it was both a successful MMO in general, while also having a successful large scale PVP end-game.
DAOC RvR went through many evolutions and I don't think the evidence supports the idea that RPs were the reason it was successful. However, there is evidence to suggest that the downfall of DAOC was directly tied to end game grind resulting in a large delta between the haves and have nots, all of these elements were added later in DAOCs life cycle.
Two things seem clear:
1) Progression, even at end game, is good.
2) Progression that makes it more difficult or frustrating for those who have yet to progress is bad.
Anyone who has taken an objective and reasoned look at GW2 will know that Anet is a very very capable game development shop. It will be trivial for Anet to make further adjustments to WvWvW if need be. I have little doubt however that Anet will do so with 1) and 2) in mind, unlike so many other now failed games (and I now include DAOC in that list as well).
WAR had 1 billion problems and RR was the only good thing about it.(btw if you didn't like base trading get ready because there will be lots of it in WvW)
Every game that tried world PvP except daoc (and somewhat WAR) failed horribly. Is it coincidence? The RR system is the only one that has worked until now.Are realm ranks overpowered? Yes they are. The only solution that can save WvW is implementing it but greatly reducing the power of realm ranks. Anything else is guaranteed to fail.
Strawman argument. Those other games failed because they were overall poor games. DAOC was unique in that it was both a successful MMO in general, while also having a successful large scale PVP end-game.
DAOC RvR went through many evolutions and I don't think the evidence supports the idea that RPs were the reason it was successful. However, there is evidence to suggest that the downfall of DAOC was directly tied to end game grind resulting in a large delta between the haves and have nots, all of these elements were added later in DAOCs life cycle.
Two things seem clear:
1) Progression, even at end game, is good.
2) Progression that makes it more difficult or frustrating for those who have yet to progress is bad.
Anyone who has taken an objective and reasoned look at GW2 will know that Anet is a very very capable game development shop. It will be trivial for Anet to make further adjustments to WvWvW if need be. I have little doubt however that Anet will do so with 1) and 2) in mind, unlike so many other now failed games (and I now include DAOC in that list as well).
1) we agree
2)You do know that 80s will be stronger than lowbies in WvW right? We just don't know how much stronger.
The only point where we disagree is that I'm saying someone who leveled to 80 today should be slightly weaker than someone who is at 80 for 2 years and has been WvWing constantly.
WAR had 1 billion problems and RR was the only good thing about it.(btw if you didn't like base trading get ready because there will be lots of it in WvW)
Every game that tried world PvP except daoc (and somewhat WAR) failed horribly. Is it coincidence? The RR system is the only one that has worked until now.Are realm ranks overpowered? Yes they are. The only solution that can save WvW is implementing it but greatly reducing the power of realm ranks. Anything else is guaranteed to fail.
Strawman argument. Those other games failed because they were overall poor games. DAOC was unique in that it was both a successful MMO in general, while also having a successful large scale PVP end-game.
DAOC RvR went through many evolutions and I don't think the evidence supports the idea that RPs were the reason it was successful. However, there is evidence to suggest that the downfall of DAOC was directly tied to end game grind resulting in a large delta between the haves and have nots, all of these elements were added later in DAOCs life cycle.
Two things seem clear:
1) Progression, even at end game, is good.
2) Progression that makes it more difficult or frustrating for those who have yet to progress is bad.
Anyone who has taken an objective and reasoned look at GW2 will know that Anet is a very very capable game development shop. It will be trivial for Anet to make further adjustments to WvWvW if need be. I have little doubt however that Anet will do so with 1) and 2) in mind, unlike so many other now failed games (and I now include DAOC in that list as well).
DAOC did fail, was the best PvP game of the last 10 years, war fail at launch but at this poing the RvR system is really good, sadly is late for warhammer. GW1 didnt have opvp or RvR, so this will be the 1st time working on a RvRvR system for Anet even when they just did a copy and paste of warhammer 1.4 RvR system. All the pregression in gw2 could be cosmetic, but then, anet will sell all that progression in the shop, like they did in gw1, but again atm the WvWvW system in gw2 is casual and 1 month or less after launch it will be an empty battlefield without changes
Hey guys just an idea to help extend and improve WvWvW in GW2. Please reply with suggestions, improvements and thoughts. Keep in mind this is a work in progress. I've put it in a Q and A formatt similar to what some companies will to make a bit more clear.
Personal PvP AA (temporary boosts) WIP
Q:What are PVP AA boosts? A: They are gained personally by the player, and can be added to specific abilities to enhance them for a limited period of time.
Q:How much will Personal PVP AA points cost per skill? A: It will depend on the skill, for example: Healing boosts may require 2 PVP AA point boosts while Elite may required 10 PVP AA point boosts.
Q:Is there a total amount of points that a player can invest into his skills? A: Yes this number will need tweaking but for example lets say each skill has a certain number of Tiers (healing 1-5, Elite 1- 3) In this situation the player would only be able to use a total of 30 points. Which could could give the player many combinations. In theory a player could put all 30 points into his elite skill but may lose out on healing boosts. Again these values will need to be balanced.
Q: Are these boosts permanent? A:No, they are here to create incentive for players to continue the WvWvW even at End game. For example, the more points invested in skill with PVP AA boosts the longer it will last in terms of time. These boosts would only start once a player is in a WvWvW or Smaller battlegroun and pause once the match is over. Again these time would have to be adjusted but a simple rule will be the larger more effective skill will have less time in general.
Q: Exactly how are they earned? A: When a player enters PVP, the player will have to complete certain objective but to keep the player from just running those objective alone and then exiting. The objectives are unknown and calculate along with other data such as: Win, Loss, heals, finishing downed players, number of kills, Kill/Death ratio, How long certain objective points are held etc. By adding a larger variety of calculations everyone no matter their level and lack of skills unlocked will achieve Personal PVP AA Boosts.
Q: How many total PVP AA boost points can a player earn? A: Currently it will depend on the number of unlocked skills on the skill bar based on the weapon which has the most unlocked. For example: If they unlock 5 skills on their two handed weapon they would have a total of 5 tiers they would get 25 points. Again this is an example and would require some balancing to make the choices interesting.
Q:What if you don't use all you points at once? A: What we wan't to do is give the lower level players a chance to obtain PVP AA boosts as well and not get dominated by high level players which horde points. How this will work is the more points you horde the less you will earn, this will scale based on player level. This one i'm still a bit stumped on and any suggestions would help to balance the points.
Q: Can you trade these points? A: Currently no but if we can balance the many issues that along with it then it may be possible.
Hopefully what this system/mechanic will do is keep WvWvW fun starting from a low level all the way to the end. Addtionall keep the end game (level 80) pvp meaningful and something that continues and doesn't end.
That's because you're stuck into VERTICAL rpg progression.... GW2 is about HORIZONTAL rpg progression.
It's not bad design. It's actually a VERY good design. Great choice by Arenanet.
So please explain to me how leveling from 1-80 instantly to participate in WvWvW is HORIZONTAL progression?
Good Lord i even have to explain such a simple thing. Leaderboards, rare skins, guild pride to conquer castles, achivements, titles ecc.
I guess you better go back to a vertical progression mmorpg because it's obviously not the game for you.
Don't worry i will gladly take over your queue slot in WvWvW
None of what you described is related to insta-leveling from 1-80. Not one single thing, so maybe you should rethink your argument and get back to me.
oh ho! You have a problem with insta-leveling to 80?
God forbids! people are having fun in pvp before grinding to max level! Blasphemy!
Again, you were arguing that leveling from 1-80 was an example of HORIZONTAL progression (it is not, or at least you have failed to provide any evidence that it is). Whether you find something to be FUN or not is a different matter. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but not to your own set of facts (yes, I went there...)
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Why it'll happen: People care mostly about personal character progression (exp/karma/gold). The fastest and most efficient way to get it is to take keeps and not defending. Some people may care about the "server buffs" for a while but when they see their PvE friends outlevel them hard they'll go back to whatever gives more exp.
How it may happen: there are many different ways. First off I don't think all 3 servers will base trade in a zone(maybe only on the center map). They will probably form pairs per zone. 3 resource camps each to generate enough supply (they won't touch each others) and they will simple circle each other taking keeps (since they give the bigger rewards). Nobody will bother defending because people don't want to stay lowbies forever.
What you're forgetting is that there are quite a few examples of games that don't follow this trend.
Just because the WoW / Skinner-box model works, doesn't mean it's the only viable design choice. Furthermore, just because you play games for the gear treadmill, does not mean that everyone else does as well. There are quite a lot of people playing GW2 who are actually happy that the gear treadmill isn't there.
The primary reason why so many PvP systems in themeparks fail, is because they use a gear treadmill as an incentive to have fun. The side effect of doing so, is that treadmill actually ends up a substitute for fun, and once it becomes irrelevant, so does the game.
You're basically making predictions based off your own personal bias, instead of looking at the situation as a whole. But hey, maybe you'll get lucky.
- On a side note: Another thing you are forgetting is that many of the things you earn in WvW are then spent right back in the form of upgrades, repair costs, and siege equipment. WvW is actually not the fastest way to get any of the things you stated, and most of the people I've seen who are enjoying it, are enjoying it inspite of the costs, not because of the gains.
I.E. the average mindset is 'i need enough X so I can go do more WvW', not 'I need more WvW so I can gain X'.
GW2 may have some sort of prestige progession for WvW at some point, or a progression for achievrs, but there will never be a post level cap POWER progressions, whether it be through items stats or skill unlocks.
I don't know why people can't understand that there will be no post cap power progression grind. Once people reach level 80 and have all their max stat gear, ongoing success will come down to skill, tactics and strategy. This will not be a game where people who spend insane amounts of time grinding progression content will earn some major handicap that will allow them to trounce even the most skilled opponents who just don't have that much time to waste enhancing their e-peens!
Structured PvP is about skill, tactics and strategy right from day 1, while WvW may see the effects of progression disparity in the early weeks of the life of the game, until all servers are able to field forces for whom the majority of which are at or near the level cap.
People who like to play for fun, excitement, pride, prestige and challenge will love WvW. Those that only enjoy PvP when they can earn some huge advantage over others, in order to make themselves feel like they are more skilled than they actually are, probably won't like WvW nearly as much. I've always thought that the "virtual gear grind PvP Bullies" were the coddled minority and catering to them, at the expense of the general gaming populace, has been a major developer mistake. Call me an optimist, but I think many people who would normally go the PvP gear grind route will find them selves happy converts to a more fair, skill and smarts based competative environment and those who don't adapt will be a small minority of career MMO bullies who really will not be missed.
GW2 may have some sort of prestige progession for WvW at some point, or a progression for achievrs, but there will never be a post level cap POWER progressions, whether it be through items stats or skill unlocks.
I don't know why people can't understand that there will be no post cap power progression grind. Once people reach level 80 and have all their max stat gear, ongoing success will come down to skill, tactics and strategy. This will not be a game where people who spend insane amounts of time grinding progression content will earn some major handicap that will allow them to trounce even the most skilled opponents who just don't have that much time to waste enhancing their e-peens!
Structured PvP is about skill, tactics and strategy right from day 1, while WvW may see the effects of progression disparity in the early weeks of the life of the game, until all servers are able to field forces for whom the majority of which are at or near the level cap.
People who like to play for fun, excitement, pride, prestige and challenge will love WvW. Those that only enjoy PvP when they can earn some huge advantage over others, in order to make themselves feel like they are more skilled than they actually are, probably won't like WvW nearly as much. I've always thought that the "virtual gear grind PvP Bullies" were the coddled minority and catering to them, at the expense of the general gaming populace, has been a major developer mistake. Call me an optimist, but I think many people who would normally go the PvP gear grind route will find them selves happy converts to a more fair, skill and smarts based competative environment and those who don't adapt will be a small minority of career MMO bullies who really will not be missed.
If WvW is empty in a few months(because people have no motivation to do it at 80) a lot can change. Don't forget: Anet is here to win it this time.
GW2 may have some sort of prestige progession for WvW at some point, or a progression for achievrs, but there will never be a post level cap POWER progressions, whether it be through items stats or skill unlocks.
I don't know why people can't understand that there will be no post cap power progression grind. Once people reach level 80 and have all their max stat gear, ongoing success will come down to skill, tactics and strategy. This will not be a game where people who spend insane amounts of time grinding progression content will earn some major handicap that will allow them to trounce even the most skilled opponents who just don't have that much time to waste enhancing their e-peens!
Structured PvP is about skill, tactics and strategy right from day 1, while WvW may see the effects of progression disparity in the early weeks of the life of the game, until all servers are able to field forces for whom the majority of which are at or near the level cap.
People who like to play for fun, excitement, pride, prestige and challenge will love WvW. Those that only enjoy PvP when they can earn some huge advantage over others, in order to make themselves feel like they are more skilled than they actually are, probably won't like WvW nearly as much. I've always thought that the "virtual gear grind PvP Bullies" were the coddled minority and catering to them, at the expense of the general gaming populace, has been a major developer mistake. Call me an optimist, but I think many people who would normally go the PvP gear grind route will find them selves happy converts to a more fair, skill and smarts based competative environment and those who don't adapt will be a small minority of career MMO bullies who really will not be missed.
not true there is already talk for Anet devs about using your tokens dropped in WvW to buy stuff other then gear like buffs and abilites so there is already progression in the works. Gear grind is not at all what most of us want in WvW we just want a renoun system that both warhammer and DAOC had to make things more exciting. You can easily leave out abilites that make the game more unbalanced and stick to adding in stuff like breaking siege passing doors or climbing keep walls etc just like DAOC had. Also people need to stop saying you could buy gear for realm points in DAOC as that is no at all true there was no gear in RvR in DAOC -Not meaning the last part for you there was a couple of posters who keep saying that in this thread and there was never any gear in daoc that was warhammer and that didnt turn out well at all.
I think those who vote No are mostly people who never had the chance to experience DAoC (before ToA) and how addicting and fun the realm rank system was - which had its flaws, but I believe Anet can fix them since they are competent developers and not (insanely lucky) hacks like Mythic. They think realm ranks are some kind of gear grind a la WoW.
Didnt play daoc, but love the idea of frontiers. Increased rewards for increased risk. Console gamers have flooded the genre and they hate any form of character building, good luck to all those trying to convince them otherwise.
Originally posted by Svarcanum I never continued playing any of those rpgs once I was fully progressed. MMOs rely on people to continue playing.
CORRECTION: MMOs that require a SUBSCRIPTION FEE rely on people to continue playing. GW2 only relies on people to have enjoyed the game enough that they will consider an expansion which will then entice them to purchase gems in the cash shop.
Gear progression, "end game", these are all valid ways to keep people paying a monthly sub. They are not a requirement of an MMO for players to get their original $60 worth of fun out of. Again, whoever said, "Man Skyrim was such an awesome game, worth my $60 bucks initially but where's the endgame and progression??"
I really find it hard to believe that all of a sudden, all these people who activly avoid any form of game playing that doesnt result in either the best xp or best item rewards are going to drop this mentality.
I think the games going to be in for a very rough time once everyone starts hitting endgame only to find endgame is the same stuff they did the whole game, only without the prize of OP gear. I think its crazy to imagine that these people who hate grind in any way shape or form are going to love grind with no reward...i mean yeah you dont have to repeate pvp and content over and over to get gear to compete...you just get to do it over and over to just do it.
I dunno, mabey the lack of a subscription removed this thought process.
Unless they put in some form of unique pvp mechanic this games going to have a very rough time once the herd reaches max level to find they can grind dungeons for looks and fun or grind pvp for looks and fun.
The only thing short sighted gamers with ADD hate more than grind...doing stuff for no noticable gain in preformance. This game is packed full with these players. Its going to be one hell of a rollercoaster ride in its first month. Better hope progression is slow enough to where they can put a free expansion in before endgame is reached my most.
2)You do know that 80s will be stronger than lowbies in WvW right? We just don't know how much stronger.
The only point where we disagree is that I'm saying someone who leveled to 80 today should be slightly weaker than someone who is at 80 for 2 years and has been WvWing constantly.
Yes I do know that. In fact a level 80 will be ALOT stronger and a fully geared 80 much stronger still. All 80s will benefit from having access to all 4 of their slot skills, including elites. In addition they will have a full pool of trait skills. Also, level 80's gear bonuses will range anywhere from a level 80 set of "fine" armor/weapons all the way up to a full exotic and/or legonary set (3 stat tiers of item progression, the last tier will likely take quite some time to get). While the only help a lowbie gets is their base stats normalized (i.e. they get the base stats that would have if they were 80, minus the gear), but nothing more.
In other words someone who has been level 80 for two years WILL be stronger than a level 80 who just dinged. The main difference is the new 80 does not need to face off against a bunch of supercharged 80s for the next year, trying to build up enough kills to finally be on an equal playing field. Only to discover that they are behind yet again when the developers raise the bar further trying to appease the "elite" folk.
In GW2 the newly dinged 80 can choose to play as a weakling PVPer until they obtain enough points to purchase max gear or they can gear up through PVE, choosing to enter WvWvW fully geared and expereince Godhood themselves.
With that all said, I do expect Anet will add some non-cosmetic progression abilities over time, but I doubt they will directly improve our odds in 1v1 combat, for that would defeat the whole purpose.
I think those who vote No are mostly people who never had the chance to experience DAoC (before ToA) and how addicting and fun the realm rank system was - which had its flaws, but I believe Anet can fix them since they are competent developers and not (insanely lucky) hacks like Mythic. They think realm ranks are some kind of gear grind a la WoW.
I voted no, I also played DAoC pre ToA. In fact when ToA came out I stopped playing because I hated the idea of grinding gear. I'm not a fan of RR either, never was, and I don't want to see them in GW2. Anet want L80's, everyone in fact, to have an even playing field. Adding RR breaks that model. They guy who's been 80 for a year has now maxxed out his RR and is more powerful than the guy who dings 80 today. Thats' completely at odds with Anets goals.
From everything we've seen and heard from Anet about where they want GW2 to go, this idea of RR just doesn't fit. I appreciate that there are people out there that think this is a good idea and they're entitled to their opinion, but I for one am against it.
Cool looking gear titles and even balanced skills is fine to share out as rewards but ranks that makes you better than others kinda takes away the point with GW2s fun PvP. DaoC was a rather different game even if they have soe similarities, but if you want a game closer to DaoC then ESO will be very similar,
Comments
Don't bother to correct him.
He thinks you can trade bases in WvWvW.... he doesn't know much about the game.
At this point i think he is only trying to troll.
Quake was not a persistent world game with territory control and character progression...Attracts totally different people.
I love it when people are trying to teach me things with 6-7 days of RvR/WvW "experience".
my review of GW2
Which is why I firmly believe an Innovative RR/AA system is needed long term. When I say innovative, I mean something that is within the spirit of Anets philosophy and manefesto....i.e. not a power increase.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I can agree with that, but that already exists... you can buy "badass" looking gear using various currency earned in WvW, not to mention the achievements/titles.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I love it when you don't even know the mechanics of the game you're trolling.
But anyway. See you Nostradamuswannabe at the end of September... when "WvWvW will be a wasteland and people will trade bases like crazy". LOL
I would prefer something more physical (in a virtual sense hah) Achievements and titles have never been a huge deal for me, butsomething that I can physically wear or use is more akin to an RPG to me.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Why it'll happen: People care mostly about personal character progression (exp/karma/gold). The fastest and most efficient way to get it is to take keeps and not defending. Some people may care about the "server buffs" for a while but when they see their PvE friends outlevel them hard they'll go back to whatever gives more exp.
How it may happen: there are many different ways. First off I don't think all 3 servers will base trade in a zone(maybe only on the center map). They will probably form pairs per zone. 3 resource camps each to generate enough supply (they won't touch each others) and they will simple circle each other taking keeps (since they give the bigger rewards). Nobody will bother defending because people don't want to stay lowbies forever.
my review of GW2
thats an idea I like. Could put a skull and cross-bones next to the name of someone who is on a killing streak. Maybe even give extra xp and loot for killing him. It would be a small change and a nice touch.
Strawman argument. Those other games failed because they were overall poor games. DAOC was unique in that it was both a successful MMO in general, while also having a successful large scale PVP end-game.
DAOC RvR went through many evolutions and I don't think the evidence supports the idea that RPs were the reason it was successful. However, there is evidence to suggest that the downfall of DAOC was directly tied to end game grind resulting in a large delta between the haves and have nots, all of these elements were added later in DAOCs life cycle.
Two things seem clear:
1) Progression, even at end game, is good.
2) Progression that makes it more difficult or frustrating for those who have yet to progress is bad.
Anyone who has taken an objective and reasoned look at GW2 will know that Anet is a very very capable game development shop. It will be trivial for Anet to make further adjustments to WvWvW if need be. I have little doubt however that Anet will do so with 1) and 2) in mind, unlike so many other now failed games (and I now include DAOC in that list as well).
1) we agree
2)You do know that 80s will be stronger than lowbies in WvW right? We just don't know how much stronger.
The only point where we disagree is that I'm saying someone who leveled to 80 today should be slightly weaker than someone who is at 80 for 2 years and has been WvWing constantly.
my review of GW2
DAOC did fail, was the best PvP game of the last 10 years, war fail at launch but at this poing the RvR system is really good, sadly is late for warhammer. GW1 didnt have opvp or RvR, so this will be the 1st time working on a RvRvR system for Anet even when they just did a copy and paste of warhammer 1.4 RvR system. All the pregression in gw2 could be cosmetic, but then, anet will sell all that progression in the shop, like they did in gw1, but again atm the WvWvW system in gw2 is casual and 1 month or less after launch it will be an empty battlefield without changes
Hey guys just an idea to help extend and improve WvWvW in GW2. Please reply with suggestions, improvements and thoughts. Keep in mind this is a work in progress. I've put it in a Q and A formatt similar to what some companies will to make a bit more clear.
Personal PvP AA (temporary boosts) WIP
Q:What are PVP AA boosts?
A: They are gained personally by the player, and can be added to specific abilities to enhance them for a limited period of time.
Q:How much will Personal PVP AA points cost per skill?
A: It will depend on the skill, for example: Healing boosts may require 2 PVP AA point boosts while Elite may required 10 PVP AA point boosts.
Q:Is there a total amount of points that a player can invest into his skills?
A: Yes this number will need tweaking but for example lets say each skill has a certain number of Tiers (healing 1-5, Elite 1- 3) In this situation the player would only be able to use a total of 30 points. Which could could give the player many combinations. In theory a player could put all 30 points into his elite skill but may lose out on healing boosts. Again these values will need to be balanced.
Q: Are these boosts permanent?
A:No, they are here to create incentive for players to continue the WvWvW even at End game. For example, the more points invested in skill with PVP AA boosts the longer it will last in terms of time. These boosts would only start once a player is in a WvWvW or Smaller battlegroun and pause once the match is over. Again these time would have to be adjusted but a simple rule will be the larger more effective skill will have less time in general.
Q: Exactly how are they earned?
A: When a player enters PVP, the player will have to complete certain objective but to keep the player from just running those objective alone and then exiting. The objectives are unknown and calculate along with other data such as: Win, Loss, heals, finishing downed players, number of kills, Kill/Death ratio, How long certain objective points are held etc. By adding a larger variety of calculations everyone no matter their level and lack of skills unlocked will achieve Personal PVP AA Boosts.
Q: How many total PVP AA boost points can a player earn?
A: Currently it will depend on the number of unlocked skills on the skill bar based on the weapon which has the most unlocked. For example: If they unlock 5 skills on their two handed weapon they would have a total of 5 tiers they would get 25 points. Again this is an example and would require some balancing to make the choices interesting.
Q:What if you don't use all you points at once?
A: What we wan't to do is give the lower level players a chance to obtain PVP AA boosts as well and not get dominated by high level players which horde points. How this will work is the more points you horde the less you will earn, this will scale based on player level.
This one i'm still a bit stumped on and any suggestions would help to balance the points.
Q: Can you trade these points?
A: Currently no but if we can balance the many issues that along with it then it may be possible.
Hopefully what this system/mechanic will do is keep WvWvW fun starting from a low level all the way to the end. Addtionall keep the end game (level 80) pvp meaningful and something that continues and doesn't end.
Thanks and any feedback would be great.
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Again, you were arguing that leveling from 1-80 was an example of HORIZONTAL progression (it is not, or at least you have failed to provide any evidence that it is). Whether you find something to be FUN or not is a different matter. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but not to your own set of facts (yes, I went there...)
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What you're forgetting is that there are quite a few examples of games that don't follow this trend.
Just because the WoW / Skinner-box model works, doesn't mean it's the only viable design choice. Furthermore, just because you play games for the gear treadmill, does not mean that everyone else does as well. There are quite a lot of people playing GW2 who are actually happy that the gear treadmill isn't there.
The primary reason why so many PvP systems in themeparks fail, is because they use a gear treadmill as an incentive to have fun. The side effect of doing so, is that treadmill actually ends up a substitute for fun, and once it becomes irrelevant, so does the game.
You're basically making predictions based off your own personal bias, instead of looking at the situation as a whole. But hey, maybe you'll get lucky.
- On a side note: Another thing you are forgetting is that many of the things you earn in WvW are then spent right back in the form of upgrades, repair costs, and siege equipment. WvW is actually not the fastest way to get any of the things you stated, and most of the people I've seen who are enjoying it, are enjoying it inspite of the costs, not because of the gains.
I.E. the average mindset is 'i need enough X so I can go do more WvW', not 'I need more WvW so I can gain X'.
GW2 may have some sort of prestige progession for WvW at some point, or a progression for achievrs, but there will never be a post level cap POWER progressions, whether it be through items stats or skill unlocks.
I don't know why people can't understand that there will be no post cap power progression grind. Once people reach level 80 and have all their max stat gear, ongoing success will come down to skill, tactics and strategy. This will not be a game where people who spend insane amounts of time grinding progression content will earn some major handicap that will allow them to trounce even the most skilled opponents who just don't have that much time to waste enhancing their e-peens!
Structured PvP is about skill, tactics and strategy right from day 1, while WvW may see the effects of progression disparity in the early weeks of the life of the game, until all servers are able to field forces for whom the majority of which are at or near the level cap.
People who like to play for fun, excitement, pride, prestige and challenge will love WvW. Those that only enjoy PvP when they can earn some huge advantage over others, in order to make themselves feel like they are more skilled than they actually are, probably won't like WvW nearly as much. I've always thought that the "virtual gear grind PvP Bullies" were the coddled minority and catering to them, at the expense of the general gaming populace, has been a major developer mistake. Call me an optimist, but I think many people who would normally go the PvP gear grind route will find them selves happy converts to a more fair, skill and smarts based competative environment and those who don't adapt will be a small minority of career MMO bullies who really will not be missed.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
If WvW is empty in a few months(because people have no motivation to do it at 80) a lot can change. Don't forget: Anet is here to win it this time.
my review of GW2
not true there is already talk for Anet devs about using your tokens dropped in WvW to buy stuff other then gear like buffs and abilites so there is already progression in the works. Gear grind is not at all what most of us want in WvW we just want a renoun system that both warhammer and DAOC had to make things more exciting. You can easily leave out abilites that make the game more unbalanced and stick to adding in stuff like breaking siege passing doors or climbing keep walls etc just like DAOC had. Also people need to stop saying you could buy gear for realm points in DAOC as that is no at all true there was no gear in RvR in DAOC -Not meaning the last part for you there was a couple of posters who keep saying that in this thread and there was never any gear in daoc that was warhammer and that didnt turn out well at all.
I think those who vote No are mostly people who never had the chance to experience DAoC (before ToA) and how addicting and fun the realm rank system was - which had its flaws, but I believe Anet can fix them since they are competent developers and not (insanely lucky) hacks like Mythic. They think realm ranks are some kind of gear grind a la WoW.
my review of GW2
CORRECTION: MMOs that require a SUBSCRIPTION FEE rely on people to continue playing. GW2 only relies on people to have enjoyed the game enough that they will consider an expansion which will then entice them to purchase gems in the cash shop.
Gear progression, "end game", these are all valid ways to keep people paying a monthly sub. They are not a requirement of an MMO for players to get their original $60 worth of fun out of. Again, whoever said, "Man Skyrim was such an awesome game, worth my $60 bucks initially but where's the endgame and progression??"
I really find it hard to believe that all of a sudden, all these people who activly avoid any form of game playing that doesnt result in either the best xp or best item rewards are going to drop this mentality.
I think the games going to be in for a very rough time once everyone starts hitting endgame only to find endgame is the same stuff they did the whole game, only without the prize of OP gear. I think its crazy to imagine that these people who hate grind in any way shape or form are going to love grind with no reward...i mean yeah you dont have to repeate pvp and content over and over to get gear to compete...you just get to do it over and over to just do it.
I dunno, mabey the lack of a subscription removed this thought process.
Unless they put in some form of unique pvp mechanic this games going to have a very rough time once the herd reaches max level to find they can grind dungeons for looks and fun or grind pvp for looks and fun.
The only thing short sighted gamers with ADD hate more than grind...doing stuff for no noticable gain in preformance. This game is packed full with these players. Its going to be one hell of a rollercoaster ride in its first month. Better hope progression is slow enough to where they can put a free expansion in before endgame is reached my most.
Yes I do know that. In fact a level 80 will be ALOT stronger and a fully geared 80 much stronger still. All 80s will benefit from having access to all 4 of their slot skills, including elites. In addition they will have a full pool of trait skills. Also, level 80's gear bonuses will range anywhere from a level 80 set of "fine" armor/weapons all the way up to a full exotic and/or legonary set (3 stat tiers of item progression, the last tier will likely take quite some time to get). While the only help a lowbie gets is their base stats normalized (i.e. they get the base stats that would have if they were 80, minus the gear), but nothing more.
In other words someone who has been level 80 for two years WILL be stronger than a level 80 who just dinged. The main difference is the new 80 does not need to face off against a bunch of supercharged 80s for the next year, trying to build up enough kills to finally be on an equal playing field. Only to discover that they are behind yet again when the developers raise the bar further trying to appease the "elite" folk.
In GW2 the newly dinged 80 can choose to play as a weakling PVPer until they obtain enough points to purchase max gear or they can gear up through PVE, choosing to enter WvWvW fully geared and expereince Godhood themselves.
With that all said, I do expect Anet will add some non-cosmetic progression abilities over time, but I doubt they will directly improve our odds in 1v1 combat, for that would defeat the whole purpose.
I voted no, I also played DAoC pre ToA. In fact when ToA came out I stopped playing because I hated the idea of grinding gear. I'm not a fan of RR either, never was, and I don't want to see them in GW2. Anet want L80's, everyone in fact, to have an even playing field. Adding RR breaks that model. They guy who's been 80 for a year has now maxxed out his RR and is more powerful than the guy who dings 80 today. Thats' completely at odds with Anets goals.
From everything we've seen and heard from Anet about where they want GW2 to go, this idea of RR just doesn't fit. I appreciate that there are people out there that think this is a good idea and they're entitled to their opinion, but I for one am against it.
Thankfully, Anet seem to be as well.
Cool looking gear titles and even balanced skills is fine to share out as rewards but ranks that makes you better than others kinda takes away the point with GW2s fun PvP. DaoC was a rather different game even if they have soe similarities, but if you want a game closer to DaoC then ESO will be very similar,