I don´t think so. If almost all MMOs are F2P then games that are P2P will have an advantage since there are plenty of people that dislike itemshops.
DDO is still by far the largest success that changed from P2P to B2P and that is because it was first.
Some players prefer P2P, some B2P and others F2P, if one or a few games are the only one providing that payment model that game will have a huge advantage against the competitors. So I think all 3 models are here to stay even though it right now looks like F2P have the advantage. In the future it is hard to say what will happen but some games of all models will still exist as long as some players prefer that model.
Of course if all P2P games becomes too greedy and adds an itemshop they might kill themselves, but I think others will take their place even if they are from indie developers.
Now you just have to get developers to actually make decent sandbox mmos that are actually profitable. Well, the only contender that I see on the horizon that might have a chance is archeage.
We'll see.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It started with LOTRO going F2P , as a first real themepark high budget MMO going this direction it marked the times to come.
Slowly but surely the rest followed the unstoppable wave of transformation.
And it ends with sudden announcement of SWTOR becoming F2P.
This is I am afraid , end of the line for P2P themepark MMOs.
After most expensive MMO (and most likely most expensive game of all times) is F2P , and its biggest contender GW2 being B2P - No other themepark MMO will be able to justify subscription. And even if they go with it. People will just go for cheaper and better alternatives.
TSW will be caught in the stream and will have to switch to F2P (and I am sure they planned for this ahead) ,Trion with RIFT are most likely ready too.
Which will leave only WOW P2P because change of subscription plan at this juncture will only lower blizzards profits. But next Blizzard MMO will be F2P.
This leaves us with sandbox MMOs
Sandbox MMOs, especially ones based on economy and PVP must guarantee players equal service. Paying extra for artificial benefits is against the very core of sandbox gameplay.
This is why subscription and sandbox go together like bread and butter.
Sandbox gamers welcome P2P, in fact they protest even a hint their MMO cann go the other direction. (EVE)
This change might be very benefitial to us gamers.
Subscription system is more profitable when playerbase is healthy. If only sandbox games could be P2P. This means more investors will support sandbox games.
In short - end of the era. Light on the end of the tunnel.
SWTOR going F2P was Win-Win for everyone !
Good point, and I accept it wholeheartedly. SWTOR failing hard enough to go F2P means the rest of us whom want complexity in our MMOs get legit Subscription based beauties .
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I honestly prefer the Guild wars B2P. I never cared for the Lotro pay to access quests/dungeons method and it actually turned me off the game completely.
I honestly prefer the Guild wars B2P. I never cared for the Lotro pay to access quests/dungeons method and it actually turned me off the game completely.
isn't that the whole idea of guild wars?
You will pay for expansions and dungeons and extra content?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Technically Eve is a buy 2 win game because you accumulate skillpoints over time:
$$ -> gametime -> skill points
There's always a player who's payed for your skill points even if you bought a PLEX with ISK. And lets not forget, you can buy PLEX and then sell it for ISK meaning you can both buy skill points and ingame currency with cash.
That is one the of silliest things I have ever read about Eve, and I have read some silly things. That makes absolutely no sense at all.
You cannot buy skill points. You can accumulate anything over time in EVERY MMO THAT WAS EVER MADE if you pay for subscription. I can go play the AH in WoW and make a lot of gold, I guess it's buy to win because I subscribed and you didn't? That makes no sense man. Every single MMO is about progression of some sort, if it requires a subscription to play, I guess under your definition it's this mystical buy to win. You realize that every game that is not free to play costs money right?
Buying game time for a game that requires subscription is pay to win folks, you heard it here first folks!
EDIT: As far as the topic at hand, I still hold the opinion that people have no problems paying for a subscription if they feel that they are getting their money's worth. The problem with these recent MMO's is that, let's be honest here, weren't very good. I laugh at the way EA has interpreted their exit poll data (posted in other threads) for SWTOR. They stated that something like 40% of people who left the game, did so because they didn't want to pay the subscription fee. EA interpreted this as peoople don't like sub fees anymore, we must turn our game F2P!. In reality it's just that people didn't want to pay the sub fee because the game sucked and once done with the story there was fuck all to do.
Originally posted by QuirhidTechnically Eve is a buy 2 win game because you accumulate skillpoints over time:$$ -> gametime -> skill pointsThere's always a player who's payed for your skill points even if you bought a PLEX with ISK. And lets not forget, you can buy PLEX and then sell it for ISK meaning you can both buy skill points and ingame currency with cash.
That is one the of silliest things I have ever read about Eve, and I have read some silly things. That makes absolutely no sense at all.
You cannot buy skill points. You can accumulate anything over time in EVERY MMO THAT WAS EVER MADE if you pay for subscription. I can go play the AH in WoW and make a lot of gold, I guess it's buy to win because I subscribed and you didn't? That makes no sense man. Every single MMO is about progression of some sort, if it requires a subscription to play, I guess under your definition it's this mystical buy to win. You realize that every game that is not free to play costs money right?
Buying game time for a game that requires subscription is pay to win folks, you heard it here first folks!
Eve is fairly unique in that you don't have to do anything other than subscribe to accumulate skill points. In WoW, you actually have to complete quests and kill monsters to level up. In Eve you just keep paying your sub and wait.
** edit **
It's not really buy to win because everyone accumulates their skill points at the same rate. Nobody can buy their way into getting more skill points faster.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Phry Originally posted by Quirhid Technically Eve is a buy 2 win game because you accumulate skillpoints over time:$$ -> gametime -> skill pointsThere's always a player who's payed for your skill points even if you bought a PLEX with ISK. And lets not forget, you can buy PLEX and then sell it for ISK meaning you can both buy skill points and ingame currency with cash.
total lie, if your going to make weird and outlandish claims about a game, at least spend some time researching those games, anybody who has ever played Eve, will know that your statement is absolutely false.
skill points in Eve do not influence combat outcomes to any real degree, and with each skill being capped at level V, you cannot 'outlevel' people, most of the skills arent even related to combat, im pretty sure being able to refine plagiocase at 100 percent efficiency isnt going to help in a fight. SP's in Eve mean you can do more things, how well you achieve those things, is really down to the player, not some arbitrary SP figure. As for ISK, the only way that can help you win, is if you bribe someone to lose, or pay a bunch of people to back you up, and even that isnt a guarantee of success, mercenaries can be bought out, and bribes can be, problematical..
Its not a lie. You basically pay for skillpoints. You can boost that amount somewhat with implants but thats how it is. You can bury your head in the sand all you want but it doesn't change it.
T1 frigate loses to a T3 cruiser and T3 cruiser takes a lot of skillpoints to fly compared to a T1 frigate.
I'm not talking about buying a sure victory, I'm talking about buying an advantage. IV to V is an advantage you cannot deny that.
Anybody with money can certainly buy an "advantage" in any game due to the booming Gold/Level Selling business... players that "earn" skill will earn it... no reason to work-up EvE players Q LOL
Anybody with money can certainly buy an "advantage" in any game due to the booming Gold/Level Selling business... players that "earn" skill will earn it... no reason to work-up EvE players Q LOL
Oh its always service to them to show them their double standards.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
It started with LOTRO going F2P , as a first real themepark high budget MMO going this direction it marked the times to come.
Slowly but surely the rest followed the unstoppable wave of transformation.
And it ends with sudden announcement of SWTOR becoming F2P.
This is I am afraid , end of the line for P2P themepark MMOs.
After most expensive MMO (and most likely most expensive game of all times) is F2P , and its biggest contender GW2 being B2P - No other themepark MMO will be able to justify subscription. And even if they go with it. People will just go for cheaper and better alternatives.
TSW will be caught in the stream and will have to switch to F2P (and I am sure they planned for this ahead) ,Trion with RIFT are most likely ready too.
Which will leave only WOW P2P because change of subscription plan at this juncture will only lower blizzards profits. But next Blizzard MMO will be F2P.
This leaves us with sandbox MMOs
Sandbox MMOs, especially ones based on economy and PVP must guarantee players equal service. Paying extra for artificial benefits is against the very core of sandbox gameplay.
This is why subscription and sandbox go together like bread and butter.
Sandbox gamers welcome P2P, in fact they protest even a hint their MMO cann go the other direction. (EVE)
This change might be very benefitial to us gamers.
Subscription system is more profitable when playerbase is healthy. If only sandbox games could be P2P. This means more investors will support sandbox games.
In short - end of the era. Light on the end of the tunnel.
SWTOR going F2P was Win-Win for everyone !
Ok...
Now find us some sandboxes that are NOT EvE... AND worth playing...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Originally posted by Quirhid I'm not talking about buying a sure victory, I'm talking about buying an advantage. IV to V is an advantage you cannot deny that.
No one is denying anything, you just lack the understand about game principles.
Buying a character in EVE is like buying an XP potion, gold boost or just grind for hours. It may speed up a few things but that is about all.
Skill points, ISK, assets, acquaintances, knowledge...all are just instruments to play the game and only thing that matters is how you are able to utilize them - something you cannot buy.
I'm not talking about buying a sure victory, I'm talking about buying an advantage. IV to V is an advantage you cannot deny that.
No one is denying anything, you just lack the understand about game principles.
Buying a character in EVE is like buying an XP potion, gold boost or just grind for hours. It may speed up a few things but that is about all.
Skill points, ISK, assets, acquaintances, knowledge...all are just instruments to play the game and only thing that matters is how you are able to utilize them - something you cannot buy.
I dont' know. XP potion, gold boost, or grind for hours sounds like pay 2 win lol. Basically the advantage is there's more things unlock for you?
I'm not talking about buying a sure victory, I'm talking about buying an advantage. IV to V is an advantage you cannot deny that.
No one is denying anything, you just lack the understand about game principles.
Buying a character in EVE is like buying an XP potion, gold boost or just grind for hours. It may speed up a few things but that is about all.
Skill points, ISK, assets, acquaintances, knowledge...all are just instruments to play the game and only thing that matters is how you are able to utilize them - something you cannot buy.
No. Buying a character is more like buying a skill unlock pack in GW1, not an XP boost. XP boost speeds up XP gain, much like implants do in Eve.
Paying for skill points is quite unique. The more money you've spent the more powerful character you have.
You don't talk about acquaintances, knowledge, assets etc. when talking about other P2W games even when those things are obviously beneficial in there aswell. Why the double standard?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by Quirhid Buying a character is more like buying a skill unlock pack in GW1, not an XP boost.
It is the same thing. You either grind for the unlock, grind for XP or "wait" for skill to train up.
It is not a double standard, it is different games. Other games do not work same way as EVE, they are linear in what you can do and comparably way simpler in game mechanics.
EVE is very non-linear and the utility of your resources and options heavily outweigh the resources itself.
I guess it is difficult to explain and understand without having a prior experience and basic knowledge about the game. EVE is really a special case on the market and a lot what is common elsewhere does not apply.
I honestly prefer the Guild wars B2P. I never cared for the Lotro pay to access quests/dungeons method and it actually turned me off the game completely.
isn't that the whole idea of guild wars?
You will pay for expansions and dungeons and extra content?
An expansion is different because it's bigger!
No, I don't actually believe that at all, but that's the answer I always seem to get.
I think the anti-RMT crowd would have completely rejected them, despite current acceptance of them by many anti-RMT folks.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I agree that sandbox games like EvE lend themselves well to being sub based and will likely stay that way. I think ArcheAge will do the same. But I would broaden the idea. I think any game that creates and environment that is well suited for long term ongoing gameplay would be a good candidate for subs. I think this is why WoW has continued to do so well with subs. WoW, at the end of it, is all about working the raiding endgame. Farming raids and heroics. Preping for runs by farming mats for consumables and so on. I a way it has its own weird economy that supports the raiding endgame. For this reason I don't think Rift is likely to go F2P. It may be more than an order of magnatude smaller than WoW but it has possitioned itself well as a raiding alternative to WoW. this has produced a rather stable population of high end raiding guilds that keep their players plugged in to their game consistantly.
I think what a game needs to maintain a sub based business model is a critical mass of hardcore guilds particpating in what ever that games has to offer as its persistant endgame. I think this is what EvE and WoW have in common even though the games are so vastly different. I think this might be what Rift is doing but at a smaller scale and I think this is what GW2 could pull off with W v W v W. even though it wont be sub. Time will tell on the latter two.
Let's face it guys, SWTOR went F2P becuase they couldn't hang on to subs. Why, imho, the features sucked. I give them an A+ for the voice acted questing and class stories, but the rest of the game isn't much better than anything else on the market. You have a dated auction house interface that doesn't even give you unit price for items and only one spec. I can respec, but at a cost of credits and the time it takes to reload my action bars and respend points. And you can't swap out of your AC.
In a post Rift environment, this is inexcussable. Imo, Rift nailed it.
To all the trolls, I love SW, love the voice acted questing, but in the end it's still questing and that gets old after like the 3rd planet. Wished the game was more. I think EA forced Bio to the table quicker than they wanted. Welp, that's my 2 cents. Good day to all.
Let me start off by saying I'm a sandbox fan started with UO (98), don't currently play any because all we have are ffa pvp trash or dull space games (sorry Eve but you put me to sleep).
That being said if you think that themepark mmo all going f2p is going to help the few sandbox mmo in a measurable way is a stretch at best. Plus games that have converted to f2p have become more profitable not less. So the money guys are not going to start throwing more money at sandbox games.
For sandbox mmos to stand any chance in todays market they need to take off their rose colored glasses and realize old UO is dead. People want the choices that sandbox games can offer but they don't want to go back to any asshat being able to ruin their game time because they are "roleplaying" a 7x gm bandit robing newbies/lowbie for their shit gear.
Like you said p2p and even f2p profitability is based on a health community and if you design your game around a niche community guess how healthy that community size will be.
I honestly prefer the Guild wars B2P. I never cared for the Lotro pay to access quests/dungeons method and it actually turned me off the game completely.
isn't that the whole idea of guild wars?
You will pay for expansions and dungeons and extra content?
Expansions, yes of course, but being ANet they've shown that what they consider an expansion tends to be as large as someone else's full game. Eye of the North was notably smaller than Factions or Nightfall, but I think it was less costly as well... I honestly forget. Dungeons are a part of the game and they'll be adding extra content continually as we go along, especially a constant influx of new dynamic events. They'll be putting out plenty of "free" new content, then in 12 to 18 months or so we'll see a massive expansion that opens up new lands, tons of new events and dungeons, and possibly Bubbles, the Deep Sea Dragon.
It started with LOTRO going F2P , as a first real themepark high budget MMO going this direction it marked the times to come.
Only because it was not generating for much revenue as a P2P... WoW contradicts your statement here as well as Ultima Online, which is probably still pulling in more online revenue than Star Wars for EA (har har har).
Slowly but surely the rest followed the unstoppable wave of transformation.
Probably, it doesn't matter to me either way, although how they implement F2P is really the bigger question.
And it ends with sudden announcement of SWTOR becoming F2P.
Again, not really, UO and WoW are still sub based among others, Guild Wars had a slightly different model that was and is successful enough to do it again in Guild Wars 2, along with micro-transactions.
This is I am afraid , end of the line for P2P themepark MMOs.
After most expensive MMO (and most likely most expensive game of all times) is F2P , and its biggest contender GW2 being B2P - No other themepark MMO will be able to justify subscription. And even if they go with it. People will just go for cheaper and better alternatives.
This is falty logic, if players want to play it enough, i.e. if demand is high enough they will pay for it.
TSW will be caught in the stream and will have to switch to F2P (and I am sure they planned for this ahead) ,Trion with RIFT are most likely ready too.
Which will leave only WOW P2P because change of subscription plan at this juncture will only lower blizzards profits. But next Blizzard MMO will be F2P.
Highly unlikely, F2P works for some, but their next MMO will either be another great success, although not as successful as WoW, or it will simply flop, and if it flops, 'then' it'll go F2P.
This leaves us with sandbox MMOs
Sandbox MMOs, especially ones based on economy and PVP must guarantee players equal service. Paying extra for artificial benefits is against the very core of sandbox gameplay.
Again, the implementation of F2P does not always mean pay2win, it might just be cosmetics as has been demonstrated in many iOS or Android style of mobile platform games. It is not that different from Web browser based games either. Smart developers do not bank on pay2win, as they alienate a ton of players by doing so, me included. Games that incorporate cosmetics or other benefits that do not directly affect other players are more likely to be successful. For example, DragonVale on the iOS is not a directly competitive game and the benefits from the micro-transactions do not affect other players and are therefore non-intrusive. Very successful model that has kept DragonVale in the top grossing for years now.
This is why subscription and sandbox go together like bread and butter.
Sandbox gamers welcome P2P, in fact they protest even a hint their MMO cann go the other direction. (EVE)
This change might be very benefitial to us gamers.
The only beneficial change is the kind that involves gamers doing their research before purchasing a game. Not purchasing or bothering with online games that are pay2win will ensure that future gaming models are more fair and not built on the ignorance of others.
Subscription system is more profitable when playerbase is healthy. If only sandbox games could be P2P. This means more investors will support sandbox games.
Highly unlikely and completely unrelated, investors will not invest more in a sandbox or any other model of game based on the subscription model alone...
In short - end of the era. Light on the end of the tunnel.
I’m Sorry but the OP’s argument is Non Sequitur, meaning it doesn’t follow to a logical conclusion. The only thing the trend of P2P switching to F2P proves is that consumers will not tolerate subscriptions for what they feel is a bad product. Again logically, they will pay subscriptions for a Theme Park game for years and years that is a good product. Despite lunatics claiming WoW is or was not the best MMO gaming experience ever.
I also am a strong believer that number of unique visitors to a games website reflects on the game playing population. Please look at this blog I found on Eve’s Web Traffic.
Before I looked this site up I intended to to say that Eve boast ~400k subscribers, and that I suspected that the number of uniques individuals playing Eve would be inflated by 4x. This graph tells me the inflation factor is more like 1.3x. BTW the most recent data says that Eve is at ~200K. That is a 50% decline over two years, and that is up from a low of ~100k (75% decline) over the same time period.
How has WoW done over the last year? From an high of ~3.0M in Dec 2011 to a low of ~1.7M Feb 2012 it is now back up to ~2.4M after offering a free Trial to level 15. So lets say that ~1.7M is the near actual subscription number and the added 0.7M are just the new free trial players take up space and not paying a cent.
What do both of these trends tell me? That both Theme Park and Sandbox subscription numbers are on a decline. Like I have been saying for years, because people can’t afford subs due to the economy. These players haven’t left any particular game because it was bad. They have left online gaming, either for good or until they can afford it again. Do I have documented testimonials from former subscribers saying why they left and that they intend to return? No. But one of the tasks of my job is to perform root cause analysis. I as a gamer used to pay to see 1 to 4 movies a weekend. I used to buy 2 Trade Paperbacks (Comic) a month. I used to attend 4 conventions a year. I used to buy 6 single player PC games a month. I used to maintain 11 MMO subscriptions. Last movie I went and saw was Iron Man 2, but I still have HBO, Starz, & Showtime. Have bought a Trade Paperback in 2 years or any collectables. Last year I attended one convention, this year none. After 7 months this year I have bought 1 single player game, and 5 MMOs. I have maintained only 1 MMO subscription.
I suspect that if a larger sample of MMOs and other entertainment industries were compared we would see a uniform decline of consumer spending of ~30%. Fact, a large segment of the population is unemployed or underemployed. Fact, consumer spending is down possibly by 30% or more. Fact, all MMOs, regardless of genre, are experiencing a loss of potential revenue. Given these facts can one genre claim victory? NO!
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Technically Eve is a buy 2 win game because you accumulate skillpoints over time:
$$ -> gametime -> skill points
There's always a player who's payed for your skill points even if you bought a PLEX with ISK. And lets not forget, you can buy PLEX and then sell it for ISK meaning you can both buy skill points and ingame currency with cash.
If Skill points were determining factor for Win, you could have a point but that isn't the case...
Oh really? So a Rifters beat Cynabals all the time? Yeah...
So your best argument that Eve "buy 2 win" is that a cynabel can beat a rifter most of the time? Please stop.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
It is nice not having to spend money on this genre anymore.
Yup, the mmorpg genre in the past 5 years is absolutely worth all of $0.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Comments
I don´t think so. If almost all MMOs are F2P then games that are P2P will have an advantage since there are plenty of people that dislike itemshops.
DDO is still by far the largest success that changed from P2P to B2P and that is because it was first.
Some players prefer P2P, some B2P and others F2P, if one or a few games are the only one providing that payment model that game will have a huge advantage against the competitors. So I think all 3 models are here to stay even though it right now looks like F2P have the advantage. In the future it is hard to say what will happen but some games of all models will still exist as long as some players prefer that model.
Of course if all P2P games becomes too greedy and adds an itemshop they might kill themselves, but I think others will take their place even if they are from indie developers.
I'd like to believe the OP is on to something here.
um sure.
Now you just have to get developers to actually make decent sandbox mmos that are actually profitable. Well, the only contender that I see on the horizon that might have a chance is archeage.
We'll see.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Sandbox games would have to be produced in order to be P2P.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Good point, and I accept it wholeheartedly. SWTOR failing hard enough to go F2P means the rest of us whom want complexity in our MMOs get legit Subscription based beauties
.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I honestly prefer the Guild wars B2P. I never cared for the Lotro pay to access quests/dungeons method and it actually turned me off the game completely.
isn't that the whole idea of guild wars?
You will pay for expansions and dungeons and extra content?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That is one the of silliest things I have ever read about Eve, and I have read some silly things. That makes absolutely no sense at all.
You cannot buy skill points. You can accumulate anything over time in EVERY MMO THAT WAS EVER MADE if you pay for subscription. I can go play the AH in WoW and make a lot of gold, I guess it's buy to win because I subscribed and you didn't? That makes no sense man. Every single MMO is about progression of some sort, if it requires a subscription to play, I guess under your definition it's this mystical buy to win. You realize that every game that is not free to play costs money right?
Buying game time for a game that requires subscription is pay to win folks, you heard it here first folks!
EDIT: As far as the topic at hand, I still hold the opinion that people have no problems paying for a subscription if they feel that they are getting their money's worth. The problem with these recent MMO's is that, let's be honest here, weren't very good. I laugh at the way EA has interpreted their exit poll data (posted in other threads) for SWTOR. They stated that something like 40% of people who left the game, did so because they didn't want to pay the subscription fee. EA interpreted this as peoople don't like sub fees anymore, we must turn our game F2P!. In reality it's just that people didn't want to pay the sub fee because the game sucked and once done with the story there was fuck all to do.
Eve is fairly unique in that you don't have to do anything other than subscribe to accumulate skill points. In WoW, you actually have to complete quests and kill monsters to level up. In Eve you just keep paying your sub and wait.
** edit **
It's not really buy to win because everyone accumulates their skill points at the same rate. Nobody can buy their way into getting more skill points faster.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
total lie, if your going to make weird and outlandish claims about a game, at least spend some time researching those games, anybody who has ever played Eve, will know that your statement is absolutely false.
skill points in Eve do not influence combat outcomes to any real degree, and with each skill being capped at level V, you cannot 'outlevel' people, most of the skills arent even related to combat, im pretty sure being able to refine plagiocase at 100 percent efficiency isnt going to help in a fight. SP's in Eve mean you can do more things, how well you achieve those things, is really down to the player, not some arbitrary SP figure. As for ISK, the only way that can help you win, is if you bribe someone to lose, or pay a bunch of people to back you up, and even that isnt a guarantee of success, mercenaries can be bought out, and bribes can be, problematical..
Its not a lie. You basically pay for skillpoints. You can boost that amount somewhat with implants but thats how it is. You can bury your head in the sand all you want but it doesn't change it.
T1 frigate loses to a T3 cruiser and T3 cruiser takes a lot of skillpoints to fly compared to a T1 frigate.
I'm not talking about buying a sure victory, I'm talking about buying an advantage. IV to V is an advantage you cannot deny that.
Anybody with money can certainly buy an "advantage" in any game due to the booming Gold/Level Selling business... players that "earn" skill will earn it... no reason to work-up EvE players Q LOL
Oh its always service to them to show them their double standards.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Ok...
Now find us some sandboxes that are NOT EvE... AND worth playing...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
No one is denying anything, you just lack the understand about game principles.
Buying a character in EVE is like buying an XP potion, gold boost or just grind for hours. It may speed up a few things but that is about all.
Skill points, ISK, assets, acquaintances, knowledge...all are just instruments to play the game and only thing that matters is how you are able to utilize them - something you cannot buy.
I dont' know. XP potion, gold boost, or grind for hours sounds like pay 2 win lol. Basically the advantage is there's more things unlock for you?
No. Buying a character is more like buying a skill unlock pack in GW1, not an XP boost. XP boost speeds up XP gain, much like implants do in Eve.
Paying for skill points is quite unique. The more money you've spent the more powerful character you have.
You don't talk about acquaintances, knowledge, assets etc. when talking about other P2W games even when those things are obviously beneficial in there aswell. Why the double standard?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
It is the same thing. You either grind for the unlock, grind for XP or "wait" for skill to train up.
It is not a double standard, it is different games. Other games do not work same way as EVE, they are linear in what you can do and comparably way simpler in game mechanics.
EVE is very non-linear and the utility of your resources and options heavily outweigh the resources itself.
I guess it is difficult to explain and understand without having a prior experience and basic knowledge about the game. EVE is really a special case on the market and a lot what is common elsewhere does not apply.
An expansion is different because it's bigger!
No, I don't actually believe that at all, but that's the answer I always seem to get.
What if… the idea of paid expansion packs only showed up after 2009?
I think the anti-RMT crowd would have completely rejected them, despite current acceptance of them by many anti-RMT folks.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I agree that sandbox games like EvE lend themselves well to being sub based and will likely stay that way. I think ArcheAge will do the same. But I would broaden the idea. I think any game that creates and environment that is well suited for long term ongoing gameplay would be a good candidate for subs. I think this is why WoW has continued to do so well with subs. WoW, at the end of it, is all about working the raiding endgame. Farming raids and heroics. Preping for runs by farming mats for consumables and so on. I a way it has its own weird economy that supports the raiding endgame. For this reason I don't think Rift is likely to go F2P. It may be more than an order of magnatude smaller than WoW but it has possitioned itself well as a raiding alternative to WoW. this has produced a rather stable population of high end raiding guilds that keep their players plugged in to their game consistantly.
I think what a game needs to maintain a sub based business model is a critical mass of hardcore guilds particpating in what ever that games has to offer as its persistant endgame. I think this is what EvE and WoW have in common even though the games are so vastly different. I think this might be what Rift is doing but at a smaller scale and I think this is what GW2 could pull off with W v W v W. even though it wont be sub. Time will tell on the latter two.
All die, so die well.
Let's face it guys, SWTOR went F2P becuase they couldn't hang on to subs. Why, imho, the features sucked. I give them an A+ for the voice acted questing and class stories, but the rest of the game isn't much better than anything else on the market. You have a dated auction house interface that doesn't even give you unit price for items and only one spec. I can respec, but at a cost of credits and the time it takes to reload my action bars and respend points. And you can't swap out of your AC.
In a post Rift environment, this is inexcussable. Imo, Rift nailed it.
To all the trolls, I love SW, love the voice acted questing, but in the end it's still questing and that gets old after like the 3rd planet. Wished the game was more. I think EA forced Bio to the table quicker than they wanted. Welp, that's my 2 cents. Good day to all.
Ing the Conqueror
Let me start off by saying I'm a sandbox fan started with UO (98), don't currently play any because all we have are ffa pvp trash or dull space games (sorry Eve but you put me to sleep).
That being said if you think that themepark mmo all going f2p is going to help the few sandbox mmo in a measurable way is a stretch at best. Plus games that have converted to f2p have become more profitable not less. So the money guys are not going to start throwing more money at sandbox games.
For sandbox mmos to stand any chance in todays market they need to take off their rose colored glasses and realize old UO is dead. People want the choices that sandbox games can offer but they don't want to go back to any asshat being able to ruin their game time because they are "roleplaying" a 7x gm bandit robing newbies/lowbie for their shit gear.
Like you said p2p and even f2p profitability is based on a health community and if you design your game around a niche community guess how healthy that community size will be.
Expansions, yes of course, but being ANet they've shown that what they consider an expansion tends to be as large as someone else's full game. Eye of the North was notably smaller than Factions or Nightfall, but I think it was less costly as well... I honestly forget. Dungeons are a part of the game and they'll be adding extra content continually as we go along, especially a constant influx of new dynamic events. They'll be putting out plenty of "free" new content, then in 12 to 18 months or so we'll see a massive expansion that opens up new lands, tons of new events and dungeons, and possibly Bubbles, the Deep Sea Dragon.
Oderint, dum metuant.
I’m Sorry but the OP’s argument is Non Sequitur, meaning it doesn’t follow to a logical conclusion. The only thing the trend of P2P switching to F2P proves is that consumers will not tolerate subscriptions for what they feel is a bad product. Again logically, they will pay subscriptions for a Theme Park game for years and years that is a good product. Despite lunatics claiming WoW is or was not the best MMO gaming experience ever.
I also am a strong believer that number of unique visitors to a games website reflects on the game playing population. Please look at this blog I found on Eve’s Web Traffic.
Before I looked this site up I intended to to say that Eve boast ~400k subscribers, and that I suspected that the number of uniques individuals playing Eve would be inflated by 4x. This graph tells me the inflation factor is more like 1.3x. BTW the most recent data says that Eve is at ~200K. That is a 50% decline over two years, and that is up from a low of ~100k (75% decline) over the same time period.
How has WoW done over the last year? From an high of ~3.0M in Dec 2011 to a low of ~1.7M Feb 2012 it is now back up to ~2.4M after offering a free Trial to level 15. So lets say that ~1.7M is the near actual subscription number and the added 0.7M are just the new free trial players take up space and not paying a cent.
What do both of these trends tell me? That both Theme Park and Sandbox subscription numbers are on a decline. Like I have been saying for years, because people can’t afford subs due to the economy. These players haven’t left any particular game because it was bad. They have left online gaming, either for good or until they can afford it again. Do I have documented testimonials from former subscribers saying why they left and that they intend to return? No. But one of the tasks of my job is to perform root cause analysis. I as a gamer used to pay to see 1 to 4 movies a weekend. I used to buy 2 Trade Paperbacks (Comic) a month. I used to attend 4 conventions a year. I used to buy 6 single player PC games a month. I used to maintain 11 MMO subscriptions. Last movie I went and saw was Iron Man 2, but I still have HBO, Starz, & Showtime. Have bought a Trade Paperback in 2 years or any collectables. Last year I attended one convention, this year none. After 7 months this year I have bought 1 single player game, and 5 MMOs. I have maintained only 1 MMO subscription.
I suspect that if a larger sample of MMOs and other entertainment industries were compared we would see a uniform decline of consumer spending of ~30%. Fact, a large segment of the population is unemployed or underemployed. Fact, consumer spending is down possibly by 30% or more. Fact, all MMOs, regardless of genre, are experiencing a loss of potential revenue. Given these facts can one genre claim victory? NO!
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
So your best argument that Eve "buy 2 win" is that a cynabel can beat a rifter most of the time? Please stop.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Yup, the mmorpg genre in the past 5 years is absolutely worth all of $0.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville