But TOR going F2P is great. Now i can play a little with no commitment.
In fact, Marvel Heroes will be the first AAA MMO build F2P from the ground up. I will expect TSW to go F2P in the future too. This F2P trend is pretty much unmistaken by now.
I wonder how long WOW can hold out .. in fact, WOW is already free up to L20 or so.
Well, currently WoW is making 70 dollars a second. I dunno if f2p would top that. Possibly.
Personally I hate the F2P model. Total money grabbing trash.
Payment model has little to do with fun.
DCUO is fun for me. DDO is fun for me. Free is the added gravy. As long as part of the game is free, there is no reason not to play (unless of course there are other more fun things to do).
I agree with the OP for the most part, and I do think that P2P is a great model for Sandboxes. I don't exactly think it's a win for everybody, but it's a win for the players.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
Sandbox MMOs, especially ones based on economy and PVP must guarantee players equal service. Paying extra for artificial benefits is against the very core of sandbox gameplay.
This is why subscription and sandbox go together like bread and butter.
Sandbox gamers welcome P2P, in fact they protest even a hint their MMO cann go the other direction. (EVE)
You can buy currency and game items from RMT in pretty much any MMO. Are themepark players the ones buying and selling game items for real money in sandbox MMOs?
Technically Eve is a buy 2 win game because you accumulate skillpoints over time:
$$ -> gametime -> skill points
There's always a player who's payed for your skill points even if you bought a PLEX with ISK. And lets not forget, you can buy PLEX and then sell it for ISK meaning you can both buy skill points and ingame currency with cash.
Heck, with enough ISK, you can buy yourself a character with 100 million skill points right off the bat.
Good luck knowing what to do with that character however.
WOW continues to defy the trend, however I'm not sure if this is because people stick around so long or because they are able to replace their lost subs with new players at a steady rate.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I do not think this is the sweeping end to P2P, but yes F2P is gaining momentum and is becoming a very common model. Other posters nailed it; if a game has longevity P2P is a better model still.
However, your conclusion that sandboxes will now get more funding is a stretch (wish it was the case though ). Also, your statement that all sandboxes need to be P2P is going to be thwarted by the Repop's model. Its F2P, with cash shop for cosmetics and one-time buys for certain luxuries (being able to be mayor of a town etc). So it's more of a hybrid of F2P/B2P (like LOTRO? Idk, didn't play it). They might change this before release (or become vaporware), but I don't think that will be the case.
I agree with the OP for the most part, and I do think that P2P is a great model for Sandboxes. I don't exactly think it's a win for everybody, but it's a win for the players.
I don't think it has to do with being better for sandboxes vs theme parks, what really matters is whether or not there is a PVP centric end game and I offer up DAOC as an example.
People need a reason to keep subbed, so your end game better be pretty much endless, and only a more virtual world like PVP model is really sustainable.
Endless avatar progression is one reason why many EVE players keep multiple accounts subbed even while playing other titles, also a big draw.
What you can't do is deliver a finite amount of static content and expect players to keep resubscribing month after month.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
snadboxes do not get the support because 99% of them suck. Look at all the new sandboxes released.....Xyson a train wreck of a game with nothing at all to do but crafting. Dark Fall grind skills forever and an eternity then go out and maybe kill something. Oh yeah you can gank noobs and take their stuff real innovative. SWG probably the best sandbox to date besides UO, but bleeding massive subs even before the CU and NGE because combat was a snooze fest . Let see mortal online - way worse then any sandbox to release to date with crappy team and even crappier small community. Shadowbane the best full loot sandbox to date besides SWG but full of bugs hacks and dupping with a team that couldnt fix the game and it was bleeding subs way before shut down and free to play also.
The only sandbox doing anything this day and age is minecraft. While not a mmorpg the only true thing that makes it a great game is the freedom to do anything you want if you know how to program java code. Mods are the only thing that makes minecraft so fun to this day because you can go to the site and make the game however you want to play it. We have Archage and the repopulation coming out also so we shall see how well they do. People on this site are a minority with this sandbox crowd here that think the world loves what they love. Its not that way otherwise SWG would of been in wow's shoes way before the NGE and CU but its not and wow is the largest themepark in the world for mmorpg subs. Obviously most of the gamers around the world do not think full loot pvp sandboxes are fun.
F2P is coming around only because games that release nowadays are either clones or they are under deveolped and crappy. People are not going to pay a monthly sub to get a weeks worth of new content 2 to 3 months later. Teams like SWTOR had a chance to work dilligently on releasing new content and they chose instead to whine and cry about their fans. Most of us in this world speak with our wallets and not continue to support something we are not enjoying hence why SWTOR is going free to play now. If they would of been faster on the patches and put more effort into creating the game it wouldnt be in this mess to begin with.
Buying a character is more like buying a skill unlock pack in GW1, not an XP boost.
It is the same thing. You either grind for the unlock, grind for XP or "wait" for skill to train up.
It is not a double standard, it is different games. Other games do not work same way as EVE, they are linear in what you can do and comparably way simpler in game mechanics.
EVE is very non-linear and the utility of your resources and options heavily outweigh the resources itself.
I guess it is difficult to explain and understand without having a prior experience and basic knowledge about the game. EVE is really a special case on the market and a lot what is common elsewhere does not apply.
So your saying people who played Eve for like 5 years don't have advantage over those that are beginners? It's the whole "wait" for skill to train up thing. You obviously have more utility just by being sub over 5 years, or waited over 5 years.
I'm not saying you automatically win just by subing longer. I'm saying you have an advantage over those who only sub for a few month.
I also am a strong believer that number of unique visitors to a games website reflects on the game playing population. Please look at this blog I found on Eve’s Web Traffic.
Before I looked this site up I intended to to say that Eve boast ~400k subscribers, and that I suspected that the number of uniques individuals playing Eve would be inflated by 4x. This graph tells me the inflation factor is more like 1.3x. BTW the most recent data says that Eve is at ~200K. That is a 50% decline over two years, and that is up from a low of ~100k (75% decline) over the same time period.
How has WoW done over the last year? From an high of ~3.0M in Dec 2011 to a low of ~1.7M Feb 2012 it is now back up to ~2.4M after offering a free Trial to level 15. So lets say that ~1.7M is the near actual subscription number and the added 0.7M are just the new free trial players take up space and not paying a cent.
What do both of these trends tell me?
Not sure what they tell you but they tell us that it's very clear that one can come to some odd and wildly innacurate conclusions when trying to interpret small snippets of data without knowing the bigger picture. For example, that data suggests July was EVE Online's most stellar month in 2011. Want to see an EVE player laugh his ass off? Share that last sentence with them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
well, it tells you less people is visiting eve.com. That is assuming what you say is true. What really, I dont' think it say anything. The only one who knows the sub number is Eve CCP. Unless they lie, you have to presume what they say is true.
Or it could mean Eve players gradually like to multibox more. And doesn't Eve show the concurrent user online at any given time? Unless they removed it, that's probalby the most accurate data.
Lineage 1 and Lineage 2 are P2P in east, in korea for example La1 is still the 3rd most played MMO behind Aion and Blade&Soul(both games P2P in east). These game became F2P only in west. And La1(my favorite sandbox MMO) has shut down in NA(unfortunatelly). But Lineage 1 still has almost 1 million subscribers in east and L2 almost 800k.
Let's draw conclusions based on one sandbox, not based on whether or not it actually makes sense for sandboxes not to be F2P!
Sandboxes are actually better suited to F2P, because they tend to have a spread of activities which can be separate microtransactions without breaking a game's balance.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
SWTOR going free to play seems to have created a Jesus Moment for forum posting game players everywhere and now we are all ready to preach a revelation. The simple truth is that beyond a few basics it’s too early to tell. I don’t see it as good for the industry at all. The MMORPG with the largest budget in gaming history and a globally popular IP just flopped and went F2P because they couldn’t get enough revenue from subs. I expect more small budget and free to play games to hit the market and likely with gimmicky cash shops. No investor in their right mind is going to fund a big budget game right now so that AAA sandbox is nothing but a pipe dream. As a matter of fact after seeing that kind of money flushed on a game I expect investors to become far more conservative and only to fund what are perceived as sure things. That means more WOW clones...
I expect to see more indie developers with lower budgets build better games because they have to in order to survive. This will mean games with mroe quality made by real developers who are in touch with their respective communties. No longer will WoW clones be getting made by marketers and CEO's looking for cash grabs. That means less WoW clones.....
Let's draw conclusions based on one sandbox, not based on whether or not it actually makes sense for sandboxes not to be F2P!
Sandboxes are actually better suited to F2P, because they tend to have a spread of activities which can be separate microtransactions without breaking a game's balance.
They seem to be able to work well under both models. EVE Online is a sandbox heavy MMO and it is subscription. Free Realms is a sandbox heavy MMO and it is free to play. Puzzle Pirates has a lot of sandbox and social gameplay, and it has proven successful under both subscription and free to play models.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
So your saying people who played Eve for like 5 years don't have advantage over those that are beginners? It's the whole "wait" for skill to train up thing. You obviously have more utility just by being sub over 5 years, or waited over 5 years.
I'm not saying you automatically win just by subing longer. I'm saying you have an advantage over those who only sub for a few month.
You don't. The only advantage you have is the ability to do a variety of things with the same character. 2-3 months and you can be a top line pilot that can go toe to toe with the vets.
Surprised so many forget League of Legends exists. it is both pvp and sandbox. Also extremely polished and not even remotely pay to win. Not to mention they are filthy rich and the most popular game on the internet by far short of WoW, even though it's sandbox.
Sandbox is worth investing in because it can still account for millions of people.
So your saying people who played Eve for like 5 years don't have advantage over those that are beginners? It's the whole "wait" for skill to train up thing. You obviously have more utility just by being sub over 5 years, or waited over 5 years.
I'm not saying you automatically win just by subing longer. I'm saying you have an advantage over those who only sub for a few month.
You don't. The only advantage you have is the ability to do a variety of things with the same character. 2-3 months and you can be a top line pilot that can go toe to toe with the vets.
The biggest advantage your likely to have, is understanding how the combat works, knowing what to do, and when to do it, i see too often people bogged down by the idea that SP is the be all and end all of Eve, particularly in terms of combat, when that is absolutely not the case, the determining factor in any encounter in Eve is more often, knowledge and teamwork, and thats something that takes practice, its not a skill that you apply SP into.
But TOR going F2P is great. Now i can play a little with no commitment.
In fact, Marvel Heroes will be the first AAA MMO build F2P from the ground up. I will expect TSW to go F2P in the future too. This F2P trend is pretty much unmistaken by now.
I wonder how long WOW can hold out .. in fact, WOW is already free up to L20 or so.
Well, currently WoW is making 70 dollars a second. I dunno if f2p would top that. Possibly.
Personally I hate the F2P model. Total money grabbing trash.
what .. i ... i don't understand this.
F2p is ALWAYS going to end up cheaper unless you buy TONNNNS of useless shit.
So your saying people who played Eve for like 5 years don't have advantage over those that are beginners? It's the whole "wait" for skill to train up thing. You obviously have more utility just by being sub over 5 years, or waited over 5 years.
I'm not saying you automatically win just by subing longer. I'm saying you have an advantage over those who only sub for a few month.
You don't. The only advantage you have is the ability to do a variety of things with the same character. 2-3 months and you can be a top line pilot that can go toe to toe with the vets.
Are you for real? Get three months in and you just might scrap enough shit together to do tier 3 missions, how the hell is a guy like that going to face a veteran miltiboxing 5 accounts with 40 million skill points on each? He isn't, and he won't in a year unless he buys some vet accounts and start multiboxing himself... Even then he will still need to learn a shitload of stuff about the game before he can go "toe to toe" with any vet in any profession.
PvP does require skill, but you need atleast a year on a character before you got something decent to wrestle with, before that you don't have enough skill points to equip more than cheap suicide ships, and if you're a noobie you dont have money to sustain that.
But TOR going F2P is great. Now i can play a little with no commitment.
In fact, Marvel Heroes will be the first AAA MMO build F2P from the ground up. I will expect TSW to go F2P in the future too. This F2P trend is pretty much unmistaken by now.
I wonder how long WOW can hold out .. in fact, WOW is already free up to L20 or so.
Well, currently WoW is making 70 dollars a second. I dunno if f2p would top that. Possibly.
Personally I hate the F2P model. Total money grabbing trash.
what .. i ... i don't understand this.
F2p is ALWAYS going to end up cheaper unless you buy TONNNNS of useless shit.
It's a talking point and nothing more. Facts and real numbers have been posted over and over but they feel that if they chant the same mantra over and over again they can drown out reality.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
Payment model has little to do with fun.
DCUO is fun for me. DDO is fun for me. Free is the added gravy. As long as part of the game is free, there is no reason not to play (unless of course there are other more fun things to do).
I agree with the OP for the most part, and I do think that P2P is a great model for Sandboxes. I don't exactly think it's a win for everybody, but it's a win for the players.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
You can buy currency and game items from RMT in pretty much any MMO. Are themepark players the ones buying and selling game items for real money in sandbox MMOs?
Heck, with enough ISK, you can buy yourself a character with 100 million skill points right off the bat.
Good luck knowing what to do with that character however.
WOW continues to defy the trend, however I'm not sure if this is because people stick around so long or because they are able to replace their lost subs with new players at a steady rate.
Probably a little bit of both.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I do not think this is the sweeping end to P2P, but yes F2P is gaining momentum and is becoming a very common model. Other posters nailed it; if a game has longevity P2P is a better model still.
However, your conclusion that sandboxes will now get more funding is a stretch (wish it was the case though
). Also, your statement that all sandboxes need to be P2P is going to be thwarted by the Repop's model. Its F2P, with cash shop for cosmetics and one-time buys for certain luxuries (being able to be mayor of a town etc). So it's more of a hybrid of F2P/B2P (like LOTRO? Idk, didn't play it). They might change this before release (or become vaporware), but I don't think that will be the case.
Often lurking, rarely posting
I don't think it has to do with being better for sandboxes vs theme parks, what really matters is whether or not there is a PVP centric end game and I offer up DAOC as an example.
People need a reason to keep subbed, so your end game better be pretty much endless, and only a more virtual world like PVP model is really sustainable.
Endless avatar progression is one reason why many EVE players keep multiple accounts subbed even while playing other titles, also a big draw.
What you can't do is deliver a finite amount of static content and expect players to keep resubscribing month after month.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
snadboxes do not get the support because 99% of them suck. Look at all the new sandboxes released.....Xyson a train wreck of a game with nothing at all to do but crafting. Dark Fall grind skills forever and an eternity then go out and maybe kill something. Oh yeah you can gank noobs and take their stuff real innovative. SWG probably the best sandbox to date besides UO, but bleeding massive subs even before the CU and NGE because combat was a snooze fest . Let see mortal online - way worse then any sandbox to release to date with crappy team and even crappier small community. Shadowbane the best full loot sandbox to date besides SWG but full of bugs hacks and dupping with a team that couldnt fix the game and it was bleeding subs way before shut down and free to play also.
The only sandbox doing anything this day and age is minecraft. While not a mmorpg the only true thing that makes it a great game is the freedom to do anything you want if you know how to program java code. Mods are the only thing that makes minecraft so fun to this day because you can go to the site and make the game however you want to play it. We have Archage and the repopulation coming out also so we shall see how well they do. People on this site are a minority with this sandbox crowd here that think the world loves what they love. Its not that way otherwise SWG would of been in wow's shoes way before the NGE and CU but its not and wow is the largest themepark in the world for mmorpg subs. Obviously most of the gamers around the world do not think full loot pvp sandboxes are fun.
F2P is coming around only because games that release nowadays are either clones or they are under deveolped and crappy. People are not going to pay a monthly sub to get a weeks worth of new content 2 to 3 months later. Teams like SWTOR had a chance to work dilligently on releasing new content and they chose instead to whine and cry about their fans. Most of us in this world speak with our wallets and not continue to support something we are not enjoying hence why SWTOR is going free to play now. If they would of been faster on the patches and put more effort into creating the game it wouldnt be in this mess to begin with.
So your saying people who played Eve for like 5 years don't have advantage over those that are beginners? It's the whole "wait" for skill to train up thing. You obviously have more utility just by being sub over 5 years, or waited over 5 years.
I'm not saying you automatically win just by subing longer. I'm saying you have an advantage over those who only sub for a few month.
Not sure what they tell you but they tell us that it's very clear that one can come to some odd and wildly innacurate conclusions when trying to interpret small snippets of data without knowing the bigger picture. For example, that data suggests July was EVE Online's most stellar month in 2011. Want to see an EVE player laugh his ass off? Share that last sentence with them.
That aside, it's really odd that you've chosen the path of voodoo math to arrive at subscription numbers for the one MMO developer that has always been public about them. It's also odd that you concluded that CCP has had a 50% decline over two years when the most repeated and consistent fact about EVE has been its continuous year after year growth.
Hope those links clear things up for you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
well, it tells you less people is visiting eve.com. That is assuming what you say is true. What really, I dont' think it say anything. The only one who knows the sub number is Eve CCP. Unless they lie, you have to presume what they say is true.
Or it could mean Eve players gradually like to multibox more. And doesn't Eve show the concurrent user online at any given time? Unless they removed it, that's probalby the most accurate data.
Lineage 1 and Lineage 2 are P2P in east, in korea for example La1 is still the 3rd most played MMO behind Aion and Blade&Soul(both games P2P in east). These game became F2P only in west. And La1(my favorite sandbox MMO) has shut down in NA(unfortunatelly). But Lineage 1 still has almost 1 million subscribers in east and L2 almost 800k.
Let's draw conclusions based on one sandbox, not based on whether or not it actually makes sense for sandboxes not to be F2P!
Sandboxes are actually better suited to F2P, because they tend to have a spread of activities which can be separate microtransactions without breaking a game's balance.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I expect to see more indie developers with lower budgets build better games because they have to in order to survive. This will mean games with mroe quality made by real developers who are in touch with their respective communties. No longer will WoW clones be getting made by marketers and CEO's looking for cash grabs. That means less WoW clones.....
See how the future could be positive?
I believe the incredible turn around DDO made changed the industry as a whole. Everything in the futue will be a B2play model from now on.
They seem to be able to work well under both models. EVE Online is a sandbox heavy MMO and it is subscription. Free Realms is a sandbox heavy MMO and it is free to play. Puzzle Pirates has a lot of sandbox and social gameplay, and it has proven successful under both subscription and free to play models.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think it was more the story of LOTRO sucess
DDO was dying MMO Hybrid , that was always best suited for F2P (this is why it fared poorly in the first place)
On other hand LOTRO was still second most sucessful MMO in the west when it went F2P
You don't. The only advantage you have is the ability to do a variety of things with the same character. 2-3 months and you can be a top line pilot that can go toe to toe with the vets.
Surprised so many forget League of Legends exists. it is both pvp and sandbox. Also extremely polished and not even remotely pay to win. Not to mention they are filthy rich and the most popular game on the internet by far short of WoW, even though it's sandbox.
Sandbox is worth investing in because it can still account for millions of people.
The biggest advantage your likely to have, is understanding how the combat works, knowing what to do, and when to do it, i see too often people bogged down by the idea that SP is the be all and end all of Eve, particularly in terms of combat, when that is absolutely not the case, the determining factor in any encounter in Eve is more often, knowledge and teamwork, and thats something that takes practice, its not a skill that you apply SP into.
You EvE has been F2P forever now for veteral players, unless they're horrible and blow ISK like crazy .. which does happen.
I disagree with the OP, mainly about 2 major points in his argumentation:
1. Imo, it is very possible to design a sandbox game based on the F2P model (just think a bit out of the box and you get it)
2. I doubt, that P2P is more profitable than F2P, at least not always.
So no, the trend for F2P and freemium does not help sandboxes.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
what .. i ... i don't understand this.
F2p is ALWAYS going to end up cheaper unless you buy TONNNNS of useless shit.
Are you for real? Get three months in and you just might scrap enough shit together to do tier 3 missions, how the hell is a guy like that going to face a veteran miltiboxing 5 accounts with 40 million skill points on each? He isn't, and he won't in a year unless he buys some vet accounts and start multiboxing himself... Even then he will still need to learn a shitload of stuff about the game before he can go "toe to toe" with any vet in any profession.
PvP does require skill, but you need atleast a year on a character before you got something decent to wrestle with, before that you don't have enough skill points to equip more than cheap suicide ships, and if you're a noobie you dont have money to sustain that.
It's a talking point and nothing more. Facts and real numbers have been posted over and over but they feel that if they chant the same mantra over and over again they can drown out reality.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre