Originally posted by colddog04 Originally posted by NitthOriginally posted by colddog04Originally posted by NitthYes, and so did GW1. What you're not getting is that 'max lvl' is not the end to this game. re-read what i posted. That's not the point im making. A typical MMO = max lvl begins the grind for better gear (hence the whole 'endgame' subject). Why that's such a big deal in most MMOs, is because the gameplay dramatically shifts once you hit cap. You get to max lvl, all the content you were just doing to get there is now irrelevant, and the gameplay of the game becomes entirely different (in the form of raiding and gear grinding).right, why not abolish the lvl system in the first place so you can enjoy content right off the bat, Seems silly to have a lvl system if the end means nothing.In GW2, you can hit lvl cap (80) long before you reach the 'end' of the game. Furthermore, all the content you skipped to rush to max lvl, doesn't become irrelevant. There are still reasons to go back and do that content, which is fundamentally different from nearly all other MMOs.Again, if you removed the level aspect this is all irrelevant.I don't expect people to understand this, because most people are still stuck in the design indoctrination of the WoW, EQ, TSW, vertical progression model. It's only natural that most people who only know this, will then assume that a game that isn't built that way is somehow a gimmick, or couldn't possibly work.
Ive played eve extensively and other non lvl games. I know what your getting at.However, this is the same company that made GW1, and GW1 was their litmus test for GW2. They know how to make a horizontal progression game, and it does work. Regardless of if you can see that or not. There are a few features in GW2 that may or may not have been a good move on Anet's part (lvl 80 cap, renown hearts), because they do create a bit of a catch 22. Both functions were built into the game as a means to make the game more pallatable for people still indoctrinated by vertical scaling. Not the other way around.I can understand that, Money is very compelling.Basically, the lvl cap (80) and renown hearts are this ways game of transitioning players into a horizontal model. The catch, is that they also end up giving people a way to ignore the differences of this game, and thus assume that it will work the same way as everything else. The horizontal progression is already in the game, whether you realize it or not.Like i said originally, I know whats on offer here. Im just saying what could of been.Never once in my original post did i say there was nothing to do at the end. I said ppl might ask them self that.I'm not understanding what you are proposing. What MMORPGs are you referring to that you have played extensively that have no leveling system in place? Even Ultima Online had power differentiation based on skill levels.It'd be easier to understand what you are trying to get at if you got a little more specific. When you say, "remove the level aspect," what does your vision of the game look like after that happens? You know from what i posted im talking about "levels" and not progressions systemsOnly thing i said i played extensively was eve online, and that does not have a level system, it has a horizontal progression system.What's the vision? the character can go anywhere it chooses on the map from the beginning. Its not actually a big stretch from what you would be doing with lvl 80 downscaling I mean, The game is promoted on skill is it not? Then you really wouldn't have a problem with "leveless" design.I played EVE for years so I understand how that system works. While there are not levels and you can technically go wherever you want, where you can go and be effective is severely limited for a long time. And for the first month or two, it can certainly feel like there is indeed a lot of verticle progression going on.
Both systems use different gating mechanics for the players. In EVE, they use a time based skill system that increases what is available to you over time. This is in effect a gating system that keeps players from being able to accomplish certain activities until they wait a certain amount of time. In GW2, they use a leveling system with a flat leveling curve as their gating mechanic. As you go up levels, you get access to more and more content without making old content obsolete.
I don't have a problem with leveless design. I also don't think that there is something inherently better about it. I think different things work for different games and I really dislike the idea of "scaling up" like you put it before because it removes that sense of progression. It would be like giving a person the skills to use a T2 Battleship right off the bat in EVE. Why don't they do that? Because it removes that sense of progression you get while improving your character over time.
There would still be other progression systems in place. Although not an mmorpg, take skyrim for example you could go do any faction quest-line you wanted straight of the bat while still maintaining a sense of progression thoughout the entire game.
People Really seem to like that.
I know what your saying. Just my opinion
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There would still be other progression systems in place. Although not an mmorpg, take skyrim for example you could go do any faction quest-line you wanted straight of the bat while still maintaining a sense of progression thoughout the entire game.
People Really seem to like that.
I know what your saying. Just my opinion
There is a big difference with Skyrim though (and really it happens to most single player games). The world levels UP to meet the player level, this can't happen in an MMO, mobs need to have a somewhat fixed difficulty level. The downscaling is almost similar in what it does.
Older TES games like Morrowind had fixed levels on all mobs (just like an MMO game) and believe me your level DID make a huge difference to what content you could do
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Originally posted by seridan Originally posted by Nitth
There would still be other progression systems in place. Although not an mmorpg, take skyrim for example you could go do any faction quest-line you wanted straight of the bat while still maintaining a sense of progression thoughout the entire game. People Really seem to like that. I know what your saying. Just my opinionThere is a big difference with Skyrim though (and really it happens to most single player games). The world levels UP to meet the player level, this can't happen in an MMO, mobs need to have a somewhat fixed difficulty level. The downscaling is almost similar in what it does.
Tech wise, its viable to dynamicly scale the player to the zone. Probably as a dev, it would probably be worth maintaining a hidden guide level for the player.
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There would still be other progression systems in place. Although not an mmorpg, take skyrim for example you could go do any faction quest-line you wanted straight of the bat while still maintaining a sense of progression thoughout the entire game. People Really seem to like that. I know what your saying. Just my opinion
There is a big difference with Skyrim though (and really it happens to most single player games). The world levels UP to meet the player level, this can't happen in an MMO, mobs need to have a somewhat fixed difficulty level. The downscaling is almost similar in what it does.
Tech wise, its viable to dynamicly scale the player to the zone. Probably as a dev, it would probably be worth maintaining a hidden guide level for the player.
That would remove all the progression from the game, and people are already complaining that there is not enough progression in the game....
Besides, in GW2 you have access to tons of content, you don't have to do content twice in order to level up, so having even more content isn't as important as in games with far less content. Opening the whole map at level 1 wouldn't make much sense (and it isn't needed anyway)
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Originally posted by Teala Going to have to tag this post to see what some of you think after 3 months.
Do you like any mmo's? with every new release you turn up and start posting negatively about that up and coming game. You obviously have an agenda.
Teala is rooting for Archeage, which looks ok but nothing ground breaking.. if it even gets published in NA.
As for this thread, there's some good discussion going on, but it's mostly just another buzzword thread where people act like industry experts and seem to know what everyone wants because they know what they want.
There would still be other progression systems in place. Although not an mmorpg, take skyrim for example you could go do any faction quest-line you wanted straight of the bat while still maintaining a sense of progression thoughout the entire game. People Really seem to like that. I know what your saying. Just my opinion
There is a big difference with Skyrim though (and really it happens to most single player games). The world levels UP to meet the player level, this can't happen in an MMO, mobs need to have a somewhat fixed difficulty level. The downscaling is almost similar in what it does.
Tech wise, its viable to dynamicly scale the player to the zone. Probably as a dev, it would probably be worth maintaining a hidden guide level for the player.
That would remove all the progression from the game, and people are already complaining that there is not enough progression in the game....
You have gear progression and skill acquisitions and distribution.
People are talking about what to do at 80, the typical response has been to go back and do older content, which is exactly what were talking about doing here. just making it available earlier.
And like i said earlier, the game is prided on skill and gear making next to no impact. there is very little progression in this game already.
If people want skill to mean something having levels is counter productive to that is it not?
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Originally posted by otinanai123 You just dinged 80. You don't like leveling alts and want to finally experience GW2's endgame. What will keep you occupied for a whole year until the next expansion?
..................
Endgame in gw2 is all about do the same thing that you did the last 80 levels. The same dungeons and the same DE, thats pretty much all, that and WvWvW once every 15 days and Spvp till you get bored.
some people is talking about exploration, but looks like they didnt notice yet that by the time you hit 80, you pretty much had explored all the world map.
Originally posted by hikaru77 Originally posted by otinanai123You just dinged 80. You don't like leveling alts and want to finally experience GW2's endgame. What will keep you occupied for a whole year until the next expansion?
some people is talking about exploration, but looks like they didnt notice yet that by the time you hit 80, you pretty much had explored all the world map.
If you had upscaling people could explore the map in a non linier fashion at their leisure :P
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Originally posted by otinanai123 You just dinged 80. You don't like leveling alts and want to finally experience GW2's endgame. What will keep you occupied for a whole year until the next expansion?
..................
Endgame in gw2 is all about do the same thing that you did the last 80 levels. The same dungeons and the same DE, thats pretty much all, that and WvWvW once every 15 days and Spvp till you get bored.
some people is talking about exploration, but looks like they didnt notice yet that by the time you hit 80, you pretty much had explored all the world map.
lol you have really no clue what you are talking about. Fine if you don't care for the game but honestly why even post if you are going to straight up lie? True endgame is much of what you wll be doing as you level but you do not have to do the same DEs unless you want to. Several of the dungeons are level 80 only with 4 modes each. A basic trip to 80 will net you about 15-20% of the entire games world explored. You could level to 80 simply doing PVP and crafting if you wanted as well. And what are you talking about WvWvW once every 15 days?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by Nitth There would still be other progression systems in place. Although not an mmorpg, take skyrim for example you could go do any faction quest-line you wanted straight of the bat while still maintaining a sense of progression thoughout the entire game. People Really seem to like that. I know what your saying. Just my opinion
There is a big difference with Skyrim though (and really it happens to most single player games). The world levels UP to meet the player level, this can't happen in an MMO, mobs need to have a somewhat fixed difficulty level. The downscaling is almost similar in what it does.
Tech wise, its viable to dynamicly scale the player to the zone. Probably as a dev, it would probably be worth maintaining a hidden guide level for the player.
That would remove all the progression from the game, and people are already complaining that there is not enough progression in the game....
You have gear progression and skill acquisitions and distribution.
People are talking about what to do at 80, the typical response has been to go back and do older content, which is exactly what were talking about doing here. just making it available earlier.
And like i said earlier, the game is prided on skill and gear making next to no impact. there is very little progression in this game already.
If people want skill to mean something having levels is counter productive to that is it not?
They actually allow you to be level 80 with full access to top gear and stats from level 2 for structured PvP. So they are actually giving skilled players an option to do something that requires great skill to be accomplished at right from the getgo.
And levels are not necessarily counterproductive to skill. I don't know where you go that idea, but there is nothing to really support that. I can go into content underleveled and it can require great skill to complete or I can go into content overleveled and make the content easier. Actually, in GW2, I can't even go into content overleveled, so they have helped remedy the easier side of it somewhat.
You have gear progression and skill acquisitions and distribution.
People are talking about what to do at 80, the typical response has been to go back and do older content, which is exactly what were talking about doing here. just making it available earlier.
And like i said earlier, the game is prided on skill and gear making next to no impact. there is very little progression in this game already.
If people want skill to mean something having levels is counter productive to that is it not?
There is a difference between going back and playing in zones you "missed" or "avoided" and having access to the whole game from level 1. Even if there weren't any levels in the game do you honestly believe there would be any difference in the game? Regarding which zones people would visit to level up etc. While I believe that "leveling" is a bad mechanic in RPGs, horizontal progression is the best, it wouldn't make any difference in the long run.
Why would anyone want to go and play in a zone far far away from his starting location? Games needs some sort of story, some sort of progression in how the different zones open up. Your first "quests" or "objectives" should take place closer to your starting location and gradually go further and further. If there is enough content to level up and leave lots for alts or retries later, why would you want the whole map available at level 1?
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
All the stuff mentioned here as GW 2's "end game" is something players can go through in 3 to 4 months max. The RvR PvP can keep someone occupied for more i guess, given the fact that he is really interested in the pvp aspect. However, 4 months is a decent time frame for a AAA MMO with NO monthly fee. And that's the beauty of this system. When you're out of interesting things to do you can leave and return when new content is out with just a patch download.
Originally posted by colddog04 They actually allow you to be level 80 with full access to top gear and stats from level 2 for structured PvP. So they are actually giving skilled players an option to do something that requires great skill to be accomplished at right from the getgo.
Thats great! why cant they do that for pve?
And levels are not necessarily counterproductive to skill. I don't know where you go that idea, but there is nothing to really support that. I can go into content underleveled and it can require great skill to complete or I can go into content overleveled and make the content easier. Actually, in GW2, I can't even go into content overleveled, so they have helped remedy the easier side of it somewhat.
In a pve capacity, if you have a higher lvl than the mob the difficulty is scaled in favour of you generally. This isn't a problem in gw2 because you are scaled down anyway to make difficulty relative. if it wernt you could potentially see things like standing in aoes because they only damage about 2@ of your health. Therefore negating any skill in dodging ect.
On the other side of the coin, You get totally thrashed if you went into a zone under leveled. if they maintained balance with upscaling, players could enjoy all sorts of content, and augment their experience through skills, gear, and other systems to get the experience they desire while giving them a real chance to use systems like dodge for skill.
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Originally posted by colddog04 They actually allow you to be level 80 with full access to top gear and stats from level 2 for structured PvP. So they are actually giving skilled players an option to do something that requires great skill to be accomplished at right from the getgo.
Thats great! why cant they do that for pve?
And levels are not necessarily counterproductive to skill. I don't know where you go that idea, but there is nothing to really support that. I can go into content underleveled and it can require great skill to complete or I can go into content overleveled and make the content easier. Actually, in GW2, I can't even go into content overleveled, so they have helped remedy the easier side of it somewhat.
In a pve capacity, if you have a higher lvl than the mob the difficulty is scaled in favour of you generally. This isn't a problem in gw2 because you are scaled down anyway to make difficulty relative. if it wernt you could potentially see things like standing in aoes because they only damage about 2@ of your health. Therefore negating any skill in dodging ect.
On the other side of the coin, You get totally thrashed if you went into a zone under leveled. if they maintained balance with upscaling, players could enjoy all sorts of content, and augment their experience through skills, gear, and other systems to get the experience they desire while giving them a real chance to use systems like dodge for skill.
There was upscaling in the game back in the earlier versions, they decided to remove it from the game. I can see a couple of reasons, most important one the game would have many "empty" areas. It's natural to have empty high level areas at launch (obviously) but allowing access everywhere at level 1 would make even earlier zones "empty".
Also, as I've said before there is enough content to level up without going to a higher level zone.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
You have gear progression and skill acquisitions and distribution.People are talking about what to do at 80, the typical response has been to go back and do older content, which is exactly what were talking about doing here. just making it available earlier.And like i said earlier, the game is prided on skill and gear making next to no impact. there is very little progression in this game already.If people want skill to mean something having levels is counter productive to that is it not?
There is a difference between going back and playing in zones you "missed" or "avoided" and having access to the whole game from level 1. Even if there weren't any levels in the game do you honestly believe there would be any difference in the game? Regarding which zones people would visit to level up etc. While I believe that "leveling" is a bad mechanic in RPGs, horizontal progression is the best, it wouldn't make any difference in the long run.
Why would anyone want to go and play in a zone far far away from his starting location? Games needs some sort of story, some sort of progression in how the different zones open up. Your first "quests" or "objectives" should take place closer to your starting location and gradually go further and further. If there is enough content to level up and leave lots for alts or retries later, why would you want the whole map available at level 1?
1. People seem to like the exploration aspect of gw2, why not open that up for the with a bit of choice from the start.
2. Some people might really like that true open world approach without being confined to zones based on levels early on. (maybe i want to start a asura character and head deep into the human areas to see what dynamic events they have there)
It might actually be fun exploring the whole map for de's you like, Likewise if you rolling an alt you can go straight to your favourites.
3. people can still follow their personal story as is. opening up stuff wont change that.
4.don't need to worry about lvling concerns if there is no levels mate... All your alts can see the conent, you can play thought it with different classes and races.
And yes, i truely believe it would make the game much better. But like i said they have there design choices in place, Im not going to petition them to add any of there stuff its all a bunch of "what ifs" and "what could of beens."
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Originally posted by Shodanas All the stuff mentioned here as GW 2's "end game" is something players can go through in 3 to 4 months max. The RvR PvP can keep someone occupied for more i guess, given the fact that he is really interested in the pvp aspect. However, 4 months is a decent time frame for a AAA MMO with NO monthly fee. And that's the beauty of this system. When you're out of interesting things to do you can leave and return when new content is out with just a patch download.
THIS,
after 3-4 months there is just cosmetic progression left and endless themeparkish-pvp. So far i see nothing, which is able to attract me for years.
All themeparks failed so far in order to get new content out fast enough. I doubt Arenanet can do it much better.
But it does not matter! Its B2P. Arenanet made the money already. And people will come back and pay for the expansion again.
Originally posted by colddog04 They actually allow you to be level 80 with full access to top gear and stats from level 2 for structured PvP. So they are actually giving skilled players an option to do something that requires great skill to be accomplished at right from the getgo. Thats great! why cant they do that for pve?And levels are not necessarily counterproductive to skill. I don't know where you go that idea, but there is nothing to really support that. I can go into content underleveled and it can require great skill to complete or I can go into content overleveled and make the content easier. Actually, in GW2, I can't even go into content overleveled, so they have helped remedy the easier side of it somewhat.
In a pve capacity, if you have a higher lvl than the mob the difficulty is scaled in favour of you generally. This isn't a problem in gw2 because you are scaled down anyway to make difficulty relative. if it wernt you could potentially see things like standing in aoes because they only damage about 2@ of your health. Therefore negating any skill in dodging ect. On the other side of the coin, You get totally thrashed if you went into a zone under leveled. if they maintained balance with upscaling, players could enjoy all sorts of content, and augment their experience through skills, gear, and other systems to get the experience they desire while giving them a real chance to use systems like dodge for skill.
There was upscaling in the game back in the earlier versions, they decided to remove it from the game. I can see a couple of reasons, most important one the game would have many "empty" areas. It's natural to have empty high level areas at launch (obviously) but allowing access everywhere at level 1 would make even earlier zones "empty".
Same thing is going to happen when everyone is 80 dispersing to diffrent zones.
Also, as I've said before there is enough content to level up without going to a higher level zone.
You Still don't get it.
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Yup he doesn't get it. Simply put you have a choice, repeat the end game, or have the entire content of the game still relevant and repeatable. Let's put of another way, repeat the final dungeon that = 3 hours of gameplay, or repeat a couple hundred hours of gameplay. Some people are so stuck in their gaming addictive cycle they just don't want to break the cycle.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
You have gear progression and skill acquisitions and distribution.People are talking about what to do at 80, the typical response has been to go back and do older content, which is exactly what were talking about doing here. just making it available earlier.And like i said earlier, the game is prided on skill and gear making next to no impact. there is very little progression in this game already.If people want skill to mean something having levels is counter productive to that is it not?
There is a difference between going back and playing in zones you "missed" or "avoided" and having access to the whole game from level 1. Even if there weren't any levels in the game do you honestly believe there would be any difference in the game? Regarding which zones people would visit to level up etc. While I believe that "leveling" is a bad mechanic in RPGs, horizontal progression is the best, it wouldn't make any difference in the long run.
Why would anyone want to go and play in a zone far far away from his starting location? Games needs some sort of story, some sort of progression in how the different zones open up. Your first "quests" or "objectives" should take place closer to your starting location and gradually go further and further. If there is enough content to level up and leave lots for alts or retries later, why would you want the whole map available at level 1?
1. People seem to like the exploration aspect of gw2, why not open that up for the with a bit of choice from the start.
2. Some people might really like that true open world approach without being confined to zones based on levels early on. (maybe i want to start a asura character and head deep into the human areas to see what dynamic events they have there)
It might actually be fun exploring the whole map for de's you like, Likewise if you rolling an alt you can go straight to your favourites.
3. people can still follow their personal story as is. opening up stuff wont change that.
4.don't need to worry about lvling concerns if there is no levels mate... All your alts can see the conent, you can play thought it with different classes and races.
And yes, i truely believe it would make the game much better. But like i said they have there design choices in place, Im not going to petition them to add any of there stuff its all a bunch of "what ifs" and "what could of beens."
you already have a 1-15 zone for each race that you could visit with any new character so i don't see how most of that would be much of an issue for most people. Even if you only like a single race you can start in any races zones right after your openening sequence and progress in their areas just fine. It's not like Tera or TSW where you basically have a single path to level(progress in TSW case) for the most part.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by otinanai123 You just dinged 80. You don't like leveling alts and want to finally experience GW2's endgame. What will keep you occupied for a whole year until the next expansion?
..................
Endgame in gw2 is all about do the same thing that you did the last 80 levels. The same dungeons and the same DE, thats pretty much all, that and WvWvW once every 15 days and Spvp till you get bored.
some people is talking about exploration, but looks like they didnt notice yet that by the time you hit 80, you pretty much had explored all the world map.
lol you have really no clue what you are talking about. Fine if you don't care for the game but honestly why even post if you are going to straight up lie? True endgame is much of what you wll be doing as you level but you do not have to do the same DEs unless you want to. Several of the dungeons are level 80 only with 4 modes each. A basic trip to 80 will net you about 15-20% of the entire games world explored. You could level to 80 simply doing PVP and crafting if you wanted as well. And what are you talking about WvWvW once every 15 days?
I bought the game but I am realistic, at some point you guys looks really naive talking about gw2, is like you have no idea how the MMO community and players think and play everysingle game, but you´ll find that 1 month after release i guess, or when the people hit 80.
Your not actually saying anything, what point are you making? I'll say it again, classic themepark repeat last dungeon or 2 @ maybe 3-6 hours content, or have the entire game content at a couple hundreds hour repeatable. Ofc the latter is better.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by NitthOriginally posted by seridanOriginally posted by Nitth
You have gear progression and skill acquisitions and distribution.People are talking about what to do at 80, the typical response has been to go back and do older content, which is exactly what were talking about doing here. just making it available earlier.And like i said earlier, the game is prided on skill and gear making next to no impact. there is very little progression in this game already.If people want skill to mean something having levels is counter productive to that is it not?There is a difference between going back and playing in zones you "missed" or "avoided" and having access to the whole game from level 1. Even if there weren't any levels in the game do you honestly believe there would be any difference in the game? Regarding which zones people would visit to level up etc. While I believe that "leveling" is a bad mechanic in RPGs, horizontal progression is the best, it wouldn't make any difference in the long run.Why would anyone want to go and play in a zone far far away from his starting location? Games needs some sort of story, some sort of progression in how the different zones open up. Your first "quests" or "objectives" should take place closer to your starting location and gradually go further and further. If there is enough content to level up and leave lots for alts or retries later, why would you want the whole map available at level 1?1. People seem to like the exploration aspect of gw2, why not open that up for the with a bit of choice from the start.2. Some people might really like that true open world approach without being confined to zones based on levels early on. (maybe i want to start a asura character and head deep into the human areas to see what dynamic events they have there)It might actually be fun exploring the whole map for de's you like, Likewise if you rolling an alt you can go straight to your favourites.3. people can still follow their personal story as is. opening up stuff wont change that.4.don't need to worry about lvling concerns if there is no levels mate... All your alts can see the conent, you can play thought it with different classes and races.And yes, i truely believe it would make the game much better. But like i said they have there design choices in place, Im not going to petition them to add any of there stuff its all a bunch of "what ifs" and "what could of beens."you already have a 1-15 zone for each race that you could visit with any new character so i don't see how most of that would be much of an issue for most people. Even if you only like a single race you can start in any races zones right after your openening sequence and progress in their areas just fine. It's not like Tera or TSW where you basically have a single path to level(progress in TSW case) for the most part.
What are you saying? how is more options and truly free travel not better?
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Originally posted by otinanai123 You just dinged 80. You don't like leveling alts and want to finally experience GW2's endgame. What will keep you occupied for a whole year until the next expansion?
..................
Endgame in gw2 is all about do the same thing that you did the last 80 levels. The same dungeons and the same DE, thats pretty much all, that and WvWvW once every 15 days and Spvp till you get bored.
some people is talking about exploration, but looks like they didnt notice yet that by the time you hit 80, you pretty much had explored all the world map.
lol you have really no clue what you are talking about. Fine if you don't care for the game but honestly why even post if you are going to straight up lie? True endgame is much of what you wll be doing as you level but you do not have to do the same DEs unless you want to. Several of the dungeons are level 80 only with 4 modes each. A basic trip to 80 will net you about 15-20% of the entire games world explored. You could level to 80 simply doing PVP and crafting if you wanted as well. And what are you talking about WvWvW once every 15 days?
I bought the game but I am realistic, at some point you guys looks really naive talking about gw2, is like you have no idea how the MMO community and players think and play everysingle game, but you´ll find that 1 month after release i guess, or when the people hit 80.
we look naive because we enjoy the game after putting a ton of hours into it through 3 beta weekends and a couple stress tests? and how do you look for straight up lying about it and talking crap about the game in many of your posts?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by colddog04 They actually allow you to be level 80 with full access to top gear and stats from level 2 for structured PvP. So they are actually giving skilled players an option to do something that requires great skill to be accomplished at right from the getgo.
Thats great! why cant they do that for pve?
They could have. They could have made flying pink elephant mounts too. They made a decision, one which I think was the correct decision for this game, to give the game progression through levels. And then they gave the game a flat leveling curve to make leveling easy. This leads to players being able to experience high level content much sooner than most other games. And then they made it so that players are downleveled to lower level content. This made it so that anyone of any level can experience their level content or below.
By level 25, you have 10 zones to choose from. By level 40, you have 15. By level 80, you have 26. The horizontal character progression starts at ~ level 30 when you get your first elite skill and have effectively filled out a build. Everything you do past that point is gravy and you always have a large variety of choices of things to choose from. The one thing you can not do is ALL of the cotnent from EVERY zone. They decided to put a barrier to entry there in order to give players a sense of progression. A sense of progression that not only MMORPG players tend to like, but single player RPG players tend to enjoy as well.
I think part of the problem here is that you are acting like the systems from games like EVE are equivalent to going wherever you want and doing whatever you want in GW2. That's just not the truth in those games. In both games you can go wherever you want right away and in both games you get killed by something bigger than you. You still get thrashed in EVE. You still get thrashed in Ultima Online. Just saying, "I want horizontal progression with no levels," doesn't cut it because it says nothing about how the system would actually work. In GW2, they really do give you access to more content earlier than most MMORPGs. And the content that is available to you only spreads out as you get higher.
What are you saying? how is more options and truly free travel not better?
I can see how you would want truley free and leveless areas and see your point. All I'm saying is GW2 offers many options of areas so you aren't so gated into the same zones everytime you level through them which breaks up much of the monotamy you get with other games with only single or in Rifts case dual paths(through much of it) to progress in PVE. Wow did it well giving many leveling paths but as the years have gone by worlds have gotten smaller and smaller and options to level smaller and smaller in many most MMOs. It's nice to see a new game offer many options to level again. Makes alt play a ton more interesting and fun
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Comments
I can understand that, Money is very compelling. Basically, the lvl cap (80) and renown hearts are this ways game of transitioning players into a horizontal model. The catch, is that they also end up giving people a way to ignore the differences of this game, and thus assume that it will work the same way as everything else. The horizontal progression is already in the game, whether you realize it or not.
Like i said originally, I know whats on offer here. Im just saying what could of been. Never once in my original post did i say there was nothing to do at the end. I said ppl might ask them self that.
I'm not understanding what you are proposing. What MMORPGs are you referring to that you have played extensively that have no leveling system in place? Even Ultima Online had power differentiation based on skill levels. It'd be easier to understand what you are trying to get at if you got a little more specific. When you say, "remove the level aspect," what does your vision of the game look like after that happens?
You know from what i posted im talking about "levels" and not progressions systems Only thing i said i played extensively was eve online, and that does not have a level system, it has a horizontal progression system. What's the vision? the character can go anywhere it chooses on the map from the beginning. Its not actually a big stretch from what you would be doing with lvl 80 downscaling I mean, The game is promoted on skill is it not? Then you really wouldn't have a problem with "leveless" design.
I played EVE for years so I understand how that system works. While there are not levels and you can technically go wherever you want, where you can go and be effective is severely limited for a long time. And for the first month or two, it can certainly feel like there is indeed a lot of verticle progression going on.
Both systems use different gating mechanics for the players. In EVE, they use a time based skill system that increases what is available to you over time. This is in effect a gating system that keeps players from being able to accomplish certain activities until they wait a certain amount of time. In GW2, they use a leveling system with a flat leveling curve as their gating mechanic. As you go up levels, you get access to more and more content without making old content obsolete.
I don't have a problem with leveless design. I also don't think that there is something inherently better about it. I think different things work for different games and I really dislike the idea of "scaling up" like you put it before because it removes that sense of progression. It would be like giving a person the skills to use a T2 Battleship right off the bat in EVE. Why don't they do that? Because it removes that sense of progression you get while improving your character over time.
There would still be other progression systems in place.
Although not an mmorpg, take skyrim for example you could go do any faction quest-line you wanted straight of the bat while still maintaining a sense of progression thoughout the entire game.
People Really seem to like that.
I know what your saying. Just my opinion
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
There is a big difference with Skyrim though (and really it happens to most single player games). The world levels UP to meet the player level, this can't happen in an MMO, mobs need to have a somewhat fixed difficulty level. The downscaling is almost similar in what it does.
Older TES games like Morrowind had fixed levels on all mobs (just like an MMO game) and believe me your level DID make a huge difference to what content you could do
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
There is a big difference with Skyrim though (and really it happens to most single player games). The world levels UP to meet the player level, this can't happen in an MMO, mobs need to have a somewhat fixed difficulty level. The downscaling is almost similar in what it does.
Tech wise, its viable to dynamicly scale the player to the zone.
Probably as a dev, it would probably be worth maintaining a hidden guide level for the player.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
That would remove all the progression from the game, and people are already complaining that there is not enough progression in the game....
Besides, in GW2 you have access to tons of content, you don't have to do content twice in order to level up, so having even more content isn't as important as in games with far less content. Opening the whole map at level 1 wouldn't make much sense (and it isn't needed anyway)
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Teala is rooting for Archeage, which looks ok but nothing ground breaking.. if it even gets published in NA.
As for this thread, there's some good discussion going on, but it's mostly just another buzzword thread where people act like industry experts and seem to know what everyone wants because they know what they want.
You have gear progression and skill acquisitions and distribution.
People are talking about what to do at 80, the typical response has been to go back and do older content, which is exactly what were talking about doing here. just making it available earlier.
And like i said earlier, the game is prided on skill and gear making next to no impact. there is very little progression in this game already.
If people want skill to mean something having levels is counter productive to that is it not?
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Endgame in gw2 is all about do the same thing that you did the last 80 levels. The same dungeons and the same DE, thats pretty much all, that and WvWvW once every 15 days and Spvp till you get bored.
some people is talking about exploration, but looks like they didnt notice yet that by the time you hit 80, you pretty much had explored all the world map.
some people is talking about exploration, but looks like they didnt notice yet that by the time you hit 80, you pretty much had explored all the world map.
If you had upscaling people could explore the map in a non linier fashion at their leisure :P
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
lol you have really no clue what you are talking about. Fine if you don't care for the game but honestly why even post if you are going to straight up lie? True endgame is much of what you wll be doing as you level but you do not have to do the same DEs unless you want to. Several of the dungeons are level 80 only with 4 modes each. A basic trip to 80 will net you about 15-20% of the entire games world explored. You could level to 80 simply doing PVP and crafting if you wanted as well. And what are you talking about WvWvW once every 15 days?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
They actually allow you to be level 80 with full access to top gear and stats from level 2 for structured PvP. So they are actually giving skilled players an option to do something that requires great skill to be accomplished at right from the getgo.
And levels are not necessarily counterproductive to skill. I don't know where you go that idea, but there is nothing to really support that. I can go into content underleveled and it can require great skill to complete or I can go into content overleveled and make the content easier. Actually, in GW2, I can't even go into content overleveled, so they have helped remedy the easier side of it somewhat.
There is a difference between going back and playing in zones you "missed" or "avoided" and having access to the whole game from level 1. Even if there weren't any levels in the game do you honestly believe there would be any difference in the game? Regarding which zones people would visit to level up etc. While I believe that "leveling" is a bad mechanic in RPGs, horizontal progression is the best, it wouldn't make any difference in the long run.
Why would anyone want to go and play in a zone far far away from his starting location? Games needs some sort of story, some sort of progression in how the different zones open up. Your first "quests" or "objectives" should take place closer to your starting location and gradually go further and further. If there is enough content to level up and leave lots for alts or retries later, why would you want the whole map available at level 1?
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
In a pve capacity, if you have a higher lvl than the mob the difficulty is scaled in favour of you generally. This isn't a problem in gw2 because you are scaled down anyway to make difficulty relative. if it wernt you could potentially see things like standing in aoes because they only damage about 2@ of your health. Therefore negating any skill in dodging ect.On the other side of the coin, You get totally thrashed if you went into a zone under leveled. if they maintained balance with upscaling, players could enjoy all sorts of content, and augment their experience through skills, gear, and other systems to get the experience they desire while giving them a real chance to use systems like dodge for skill.
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There was upscaling in the game back in the earlier versions, they decided to remove it from the game. I can see a couple of reasons, most important one the game would have many "empty" areas. It's natural to have empty high level areas at launch (obviously) but allowing access everywhere at level 1 would make even earlier zones "empty".
Also, as I've said before there is enough content to level up without going to a higher level zone.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
1. People seem to like the exploration aspect of gw2, why not open that up for the with a bit of choice from the start.
2. Some people might really like that true open world approach without being confined to zones based on levels early on. (maybe i want to start a asura character and head deep into the human areas to see what dynamic events they have there)
It might actually be fun exploring the whole map for de's you like, Likewise if you rolling an alt you can go straight to your favourites.
3. people can still follow their personal story as is. opening up stuff wont change that.
4.don't need to worry about lvling concerns if there is no levels mate... All your alts can see the conent, you can play thought it with different classes and races.
And yes, i truely believe it would make the game much better. But like i said they have there design choices in place, Im not going to petition them to add any of there stuff its all a bunch of "what ifs" and "what could of beens."
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THIS,
after 3-4 months there is just cosmetic progression left and endless themeparkish-pvp. So far i see nothing, which is able to attract me for years.
All themeparks failed so far in order to get new content out fast enough. I doubt Arenanet can do it much better.
But it does not matter! Its B2P. Arenanet made the money already. And people will come back and pay for the expansion again.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
you already have a 1-15 zone for each race that you could visit with any new character so i don't see how most of that would be much of an issue for most people. Even if you only like a single race you can start in any races zones right after your openening sequence and progress in their areas just fine. It's not like Tera or TSW where you basically have a single path to level(progress in TSW case) for the most part.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I bought the game but I am realistic, at some point you guys looks really naive talking about gw2, is like you have no idea how the MMO community and players think and play everysingle game, but you´ll find that 1 month after release i guess, or when the people hit 80.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
There is a difference between going back and playing in zones you "missed" or "avoided" and having access to the whole game from level 1. Even if there weren't any levels in the game do you honestly believe there would be any difference in the game? Regarding which zones people would visit to level up etc. While I believe that "leveling" is a bad mechanic in RPGs, horizontal progression is the best, it wouldn't make any difference in the long run. Why would anyone want to go and play in a zone far far away from his starting location? Games needs some sort of story, some sort of progression in how the different zones open up. Your first "quests" or "objectives" should take place closer to your starting location and gradually go further and further. If there is enough content to level up and leave lots for alts or retries later, why would you want the whole map available at level 1?
1. People seem to like the exploration aspect of gw2, why not open that up for the with a bit of choice from the start. 2. Some people might really like that true open world approach without being confined to zones based on levels early on. (maybe i want to start a asura character and head deep into the human areas to see what dynamic events they have there) It might actually be fun exploring the whole map for de's you like, Likewise if you rolling an alt you can go straight to your favourites. 3. people can still follow their personal story as is. opening up stuff wont change that. 4.don't need to worry about lvling concerns if there is no levels mate... All your alts can see the conent, you can play thought it with different classes and races. And yes, i truely believe it would make the game much better. But like i said they have there design choices in place, Im not going to petition them to add any of there stuff its all a bunch of "what ifs" and "what could of beens."
you already have a 1-15 zone for each race that you could visit with any new character so i don't see how most of that would be much of an issue for most people. Even if you only like a single race you can start in any races zones right after your openening sequence and progress in their areas just fine. It's not like Tera or TSW where you basically have a single path to level(progress in TSW case) for the most part.
What are you saying? how is more options and truly free travel not better?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
we look naive because we enjoy the game after putting a ton of hours into it through 3 beta weekends and a couple stress tests? and how do you look for straight up lying about it and talking crap about the game in many of your posts?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
They could have. They could have made flying pink elephant mounts too. They made a decision, one which I think was the correct decision for this game, to give the game progression through levels. And then they gave the game a flat leveling curve to make leveling easy. This leads to players being able to experience high level content much sooner than most other games. And then they made it so that players are downleveled to lower level content. This made it so that anyone of any level can experience their level content or below.
By level 25, you have 10 zones to choose from. By level 40, you have 15. By level 80, you have 26. The horizontal character progression starts at ~ level 30 when you get your first elite skill and have effectively filled out a build. Everything you do past that point is gravy and you always have a large variety of choices of things to choose from. The one thing you can not do is ALL of the cotnent from EVERY zone. They decided to put a barrier to entry there in order to give players a sense of progression. A sense of progression that not only MMORPG players tend to like, but single player RPG players tend to enjoy as well.
I think part of the problem here is that you are acting like the systems from games like EVE are equivalent to going wherever you want and doing whatever you want in GW2. That's just not the truth in those games. In both games you can go wherever you want right away and in both games you get killed by something bigger than you. You still get thrashed in EVE. You still get thrashed in Ultima Online. Just saying, "I want horizontal progression with no levels," doesn't cut it because it says nothing about how the system would actually work. In GW2, they really do give you access to more content earlier than most MMORPGs. And the content that is available to you only spreads out as you get higher.
I can see how you would want truley free and leveless areas and see your point. All I'm saying is GW2 offers many options of areas so you aren't so gated into the same zones everytime you level through them which breaks up much of the monotamy you get with other games with only single or in Rifts case dual paths(through much of it) to progress in PVE. Wow did it well giving many leveling paths but as the years have gone by worlds have gotten smaller and smaller and options to level smaller and smaller in many most MMOs. It's nice to see a new game offer many options to level again. Makes alt play a ton more interesting and fun
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg