Originally posted by Homitu Originally posted by NitthOriginally posted by jusomdudeMMO's are made to be played for many hours, more than any other genre. Not talking about one sitting, just over the game's lifespan.The thing is, there can only be so many things to do as core gameplay, not talking about 10 minute mini games and what have you. So any type of gameplay inevitably becomes "grinding." The question is, do you want to be rewarded for that grinding or not? The only way to make it not feel like grinding is to make it fun, and that's the challenge.. how the hell do you make something infinitely fun? Seems impossible.If I'm meant to be playing a game for years, I want to be advancing my character in some form that actually has a noticable effect. Titles, achievements, these things are useless to me, and I don't care if they're in the game or not. If I'm not gaining power, I feel like I'm not progressing, then I lose interest in the game.A game that focuses on pvp without room for advancement might as well be a street fighter game, or an early years fps. I got all the tools and moves, now I just fight for the hell of it. Fleeting fun at best.
Heres a story from niths mystical story book..When i was a "young lad" in the 90's i used to play final fantasy 7 ALOT. I must of ground materia in that fucking northern crater for over 100 hours because my clock eventually reset (clock goes to 100 hours then back to 0)Now, at the time the reward was worth it, and i had a lot time to waste so it was ok. But that sort of grinding doesn't fly with the generation of today because i believe: 1.there has been a massive social shift from how rpgs are perceived. 2.The people playing rpg's these days arnt really rpg fans, they are fps fans and others With mmorpgs, true rpg fans respect and understand the statistical nature of the games with stats and gear and currency. They should also expect some kind of "grind" because when time is assigned to a task(character progression) its inevitable there will be "grind".This is meant as a response to both of you. Also, if you haven't, please read my independent post above as much of what I would say here was already written there.
I think you're missing a very important 3rd reason, Nitth. Many players have simply "seen the light" and now know that they can still have awesome character progression but without the grind. Games can still feature compelling character advancement systems and tons of rewards that make players feel all special and great when earned while being fun throughout the entire process by never resorting to one repetitive gameplay mechanism. So in this respect, I completely disagree with the assertion that every MMO or RPG must become grindy at some point if it is to have good character progression.
Now I'm right there with you on classic RPGs and grinding. I have done what I would today define as grind for hours upon hours upon days in every single one of the Final Fantasy games. I've duplicated Mime three times in FF7; I've used the Card ability on every single encounter in FF8 to intentionally keep my character levels below 10 until the end of disk 3 so I could then get a Rosetta Stone + Cactuar GF and proceed to level 1 character at a time (killing off the other 2) from 10-100 with str/vit/mag/spr Plus junctioned so I could maxiimze my potential stats during endgame; I've gotten 3 characters with full Sphere Grid clears in FF10; I've bothered to build my characters up and tediously kill Yiazmat in FF12. I've grinded the shit out of so many games in the past.
And I consider character progression to be my absolute favorite aspect of RPGs.
The problem I have with grinds today is that, in their own right, they're simply not fun. By definition they are boring. Perhaps it is a bit of modern ADD culture, but I simply couldn't do what I did back then today. Or if I did, I would have to also be reading a book or watching a movie or browsing facebook or whatever--because that's what most grinds are: brainless, monotonous, repetiive work that can be done while you're 85% afk. And that's just not fun.
I think most of the fun of the FF grinds I described was derived from the strategy involved in planning out those character progression goals and then eventually seeing them come to fruition. They usually led to incredibly overpowered characters, which is of course only a relative experience drawing comparisons to earlier fights against the same enemies. The computer could come up with bigger badder mobs that simply decimate me all over again, but that's neither here nor there. Within the single player game, your characters are now king. But anyone who has bothered to grind this much in single player games also knows how trivial and unfun this makes the rest of the game (not that there's usually any game left after all that.) Challenge and in the moment strategy disappears.
Notice how both of these scenarios pose major problems for MMOs. Imagine the who feels the inclination to do the insane FF-comparable grind does so and becomes ridiculously godlike compared to players who just wish to play the game normally. Such imbalance isn't fun for either player and isn't healthy for the game. And when such ridiculous power plateaus exist in MMOs and all the content becomes relatively trivial, does that not also become unfun? Now I'm going to use two games as examples here, and I know people like to recoil when either of these games are mentioned, so brace yourselves. The first is WoW simply because it's a common denominator that most can relate to. How much fun do you think players have raiding Molten Core today compared to in 2005? Sure, occasionally players probably dive in there, but mostly for nostalgia's sake. Once the thirst for nostalgia has been quenched, they likely become bored and leave. And this happens fast. WoW's tiered progression and ever increasing level and stat cap is the most quintessential example of RPG stat godliness.
Now for comparison, I offer you--wait for it--GW2. Now this is speculation and the future absolutely remains to be seen, but I know of no other game that features a similar level-down system. (Some main campaign parts of FFXI required obligatory downleveling, and the same points apply.) 8 years from now, GW2 veterans will still be able to return to the classic original dungeons, still be challenged, and still earn rewards that are relevant to their current progression. Meanwhile, they do continue to progress slightly in stats (and believe me, if you played FFXI you'd know just how much players are willing to do for ONE stat point in the min/maxing world); they do earn karma and gold extra skill points and crafting materials, all which translate into slightly better stats on new transmutated gear and a more flexible character setup. Now to assume any more about the state of GW2 progression 8 years from now would only be to assert wild guesses. But the reality 8 years from now is irrelevant. You can see the ideal I'm trying to depict.
And here I shall stop before this wall of text becomes unreadable. I don't expect this to be the end of this conversation. I myself see open counter arguments I have yet to address and which I won't just yet. I'll allow the conversation to continue first, hopefully politely
That's a very well written out post and i aggree with most of it.
However i'm still not sold on grind. Working at a slow pace towards any goal no matter how well its designed as fun, will eventually turn into grind once a players will has been broken.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by jusomdude MMO's are made to be played for many hours, more than any other genre. Not talking about one sitting, just over the game's lifespan. The thing is, there can only be so many things to do as core gameplay, not talking about 10 minute mini games and what have you. So any type of gameplay inevitably becomes "grinding." The question is, do you want to be rewarded for that grinding or not? The only way to make it not feel like grinding is to make it fun, and that's the challenge.. how the hell do you make something infinitely fun? Seems impossible.If I'm meant to be playing a game for years, I want to be advancing my character in some form that actually has a noticable effect. Titles, achievements, these things are useless to me, and I don't care if they're in the game or not. If I'm not gaining power, I feel like I'm not progressing, then I lose interest in the game.
This assumption needs to be re-examined. I would much rather have a really fun 4 weeks, than a year of so-so gaming.
Why not just buy a morpg to get your 4 week fix?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
As someone who started role-playing in 1977 when all we had was the Blue Box OD&D set, six to eight assorted lead figures and some polyhedral dice I have a different definition of role-playing to the original poster.
To get real role-playing into a game you probably need to have the following ...
Reasons for players to interact and cooperate with each other in meaningful way.
The opportunity to make choices that effect the game.
An enaging story that you can become part of and integrate your character with.
Ensure game feature like the respawing method are integral to the logic of the game itself.
Pay attention to the landscape so exploration gives you that sense of wonder.
Minor things like ensuring guild heraldy is unique go a long way.
Less "twitch" game-play because you can't work together much during constant, urgent combat.
The ability to take breaks for meals, calls of nature or interrupts from spouses.
A reasonable ratio of sensible to daft or dodgy players.
Things like crafting, collecting, quests and opponents need to considered too, and balanced as a whole, but without the above there is no role-playing - there is just repetitive, parallel gaming.
The way I see it, in an MMO, there's a concept of citizenship that you don't have in single-player games. You are not just leveling, you are trying to reach some threshold of standing in the community where people will look at you as a peer. That's generally the level cap or skill cap.
Once this perception sets in, the act of leveling ceases to be about personal growth and is more like completing a coming-of-age ritual. And that's where it becomes a grind.
How do you fight it? By making it easier to reach the level cap, but then offering a plethora of different parallel post-cap progression paths, to the point where it is impossible for a single player to do everything that is conceivably possible. You get citizenship, but also unique identity in what you choose to do with your time.
As far as video games are concerned, RPG's have always been about advancing your character through levels, loot, and story.
I'm going to disagree on that.
I know you're a fan of Blizzard's games and probably Diablo, right? In hack and slash RPGs like Diablo, you do indeed advance your character through levels, loot and story. However, in more traditional RPGs, such as Baldur's Gate, Fallout 1/2/NV, Torment, KotOR, The Witcher, etc. you advance though the story, leveling up and getting loot in the process.
That's a very important difference. You don't grind for loot in BG2. You go to a dragon's lair, kill it and get the loot. All at once, no additional runs required.
I'm not saying this is what MMOs should be like. In fact, I don't think MMOs can work like "normal" RPGs. When they try to, we get things like SWTOR. However, I do think you're using the wrong term. RPG is not being taken out of MMORPG. Diablo is. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is another matter.
As far as video games are concerned, RPG's have always been about advancing your character through levels, loot, and story.
I'm going to disagree on that.
I know you're a fan of Blizzard's games and probably Diablo, right? In hack and slash RPGs like Diablo, you do indeed advance your character through levels, loot and story. However, in more traditional RPGs, such as Baldur's Gate, Fallout 1/2/NV, Torment, KotOR, The Witcher, etc. you advance though the story, leveling up and getting loot in the process.
That's a very important difference. You don't grind for loot in BG2. You go to a dragon's lair, kill it and get the loot. All at once, no additional runs required.
I'm not saying this is what MMOs should be like. In fact, I don't think MMOs can work like "normal" RPGs. When they try to, we get things like SWTOR. However, I do think you're using the wrong term. RPG is not being taken out of MMORPG. Diablo is. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is another matter.
Those games weren't heavily focused on loot, but the loot and xp is still part of the equation. A big difference here though is that those games are meant to be played through for mainly the story.
Loot and xp have been a part, maybe not the main part, of pretty much every RPG I've played since the NES. Without the loot and xp Diablo would probably just be called an action game.
Yes, but loot and XP are still part of the equation in new MMOs like TOR, TSW and GW2. In fact, one of the reasons why I like GW2 so much is that it doesn't feel like you're running around to level up and get better gear, like in Diablo and pretty much all themepark MMOs with quest hubs. It feels like you're running around to see some cool stuff and level up, getting better gear while you're at it, like in the RPGs I mentioned in my previous post. It feels like playing Morrowind and that's one of my all-time favorites.
I agree that a video game RPG wouldn't be a real RPG without gear and levels. However, I don't think them taking a back seat to everything else makes a game less of a RPG.
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by dekou
You don't grind for loot in BG2.
I am ashamed to admit running back and forth across the continent in the hopes of being ambushed by wandering monsters to fight and loot.
Come to think of it, Fallout 1 and 2 had some really nice special random encounters. I guess you CAN grind in them, too, but it's far from the main point of those games.
I played the real pen and paper D&D AD&D D20 RPG. I was a friend of Gary Gygax since I was raised and still live in lake Geneva Wisconsin, we would talk about digital version of D&D and he and I agreed (we had numerous conversation about MMORPG's) World of warcraft was one Ernie tried ,and he thought it was very lacking in RPG elements . It wasn't a software limitation, it's just that it missed the elements to properly roleplay you avatar.
He said "upon trying it, I felt a large disconnect between the avatar I created, and the tools the game failed to provide to offer me the options to roleplay the avatar properly."
And that had me thinking? Can a themepark that is focused on acquiring gear as a means of progression with levels, really provides a proper RPG experience?.
I think it's a huge question that still need to be explored and debated. But I feel a game that provides the tools to create player driven content and quest is a good step to a true RPG experience. And also, you have to have forget balance because, even though there are consequences for say, picking a players pockets and maybe stealing his sword or ring or gold, it's still should be possible.
Also being able to climb a wall if you have the dexterity and break in to a home and steal the players possessions is also something we don't see that should be in RPG MMOs. Of course, if you get caught thats the part Ernie would kind of chuckle telling me I was surrounded by the town guard.
I feel (my opinion) any MMO that fails to provide the tools for player created content (not just crafting) is really only a facsimile of a true RPG.
The main difference between P&P and MMOs is that P&P games have "real" GMs. When a P&P ruleset doesn't specify what to roll when you want to do a backflip, the GM can tell you to do a Dexterity check. When WoW's ruleset doesn't specify that same thing, there's nothing you can do. No one has figured out how to fix that, so unless someone invents an AI capable of DMing, we won't see P&P-like MMOs in the near future.
NWN was supposed to have DMs, but I never got the chance to play it, unfortunately.
I played the real pen and paper D&D AD&D D20 RPG. I was a friend of Gary Gygax since I was raised and still live in lake Geneva Wisconsin, we would talk about digital version of D&D and he and I agreed (we had numerous conversation about MMORPG's) World of warcraft was one Ernie tried ,and he thought it was very lacking in RPG elements . It wasn't a software limitation, it's just that it missed the elements to properly roleplay you avatar.
He said "upon trying it, I felt a large disconnect between the avatar I created, and the tools the game failed to provide to offer me the options to roleplay the avatar properly."
And that had me thinking? Can a themepark that is focused on acquiring gear as a means of progression with levels, really provides a proper RPG experience?.
I think it's a huge question that still need to be explored and debated. But I feel a game that provides the tools to create player driven content and quest is a good step to a true RPG experience. And also, you have to have to forget balance because, even though there are consequences for say, picking a players pockets and maybe stealing his sword or ring or gold, it's still should be possible.
Also being able to climb a wall if you have the dexterity and break in to a home and steal the players possessions is also something we don't see that should be in RPG MMOs. Of course, if you get caught thats the part Ernie would kind of chuckle telling me I was surrounded by the town guard.
I feel (my opinion) any MMO that fails to provide the tools for player created content (not just crafting) is really only a facsimile of a true RPG.
I just don't feel like it would translate well. Even though I never played the PnP games, I think there's a big difference between being face to face with a small group of friends who will play by the rules to some extent unless they face the wrath of the GM and, or being thrown out the house, than a handful to a huge ass zerg of random players who would abuse a real open RPG system every chance they got.
I don't know, I guess we'll never know until someone tries to make a game that focuses on real RPing with a complex system, instead of stab monster get loot.
The main difference between P&P and MMOs is that P&P games have "real" GMs. When a P&P ruleset doesn't specify what to roll when you want to do a backflip, the GM can tell you to do a Dexterity check. When WoW's ruleset doesn't specify that same thing, there's nothing you can do. No one has figured out how to fix that, so unless someone invents an AI capable of DMing, we won't see P&P-like MMOs in the near future.
NWN was supposed to have DMs, but I never got the chance to play it, unfortunately.
This is what I'm trying to say too. A game would have to have every possible thing imaginable a player could do programmed into the game or it wouldn't feel like a PnP game. What if I want to pick my nose and stare blankly at a monster that's trying to kill me? Should I program that into the game?
How would you propose developers remove grind... impossible unless there is an infinite amount ways to play mechanics.
No, not even GW2 is gonna be without grind, to think otherwise is fooling yourself. Just because the content is "still relevant" means nothing. People will be repeating stuff, while fun drains some amount with every repeat.
BTW, I didn't skip anything I didn't already hear in SWTOR, but ask your average SWTOR player what they did. Guessing that's why they lost so many subs.
Also ask your average player... meaning non forum visitor if they skip quest text in other games.
A game doesn't have to literally last forever to avoid being called a grind. Pretty much all the games I played longer than a year didn't feel like a grind (SC, CS, Tribes, WOW, LoL, Planetside, Civ4, Alpha Centauri, MOO2, and others.)
As for players skipping story? Well I mean...the fact that there's a story to skip sort of ruins the whole idea that there isn't a story, doesn't it?
I'm not sure why skipping matters anyway. If I played the RPG you consider the Most RPG Of Them All and skipped all the storyline, would that magically make that game less of an RPG? Of course not.
You can criticize story quality or (ToR's big mistake) presentation method, but story clearly exists.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
How would you propose developers remove grind... impossible unless there is an infinite amount ways to play mechanics.
No, not even GW2 is gonna be without grind, to think otherwise is fooling yourself. Just because the content is "still relevant" means nothing. People will be repeating stuff, while fun drains some amount with every repeat.
BTW, I didn't skip anything I didn't already hear in SWTOR, but ask your average SWTOR player what they did. Guessing that's why they lost so many subs.
Also ask your average player... meaning non forum visitor if they skip quest text in other games.
A game doesn't have to literally last forever to avoid being called a grind. Pretty much all the games I played longer than a year didn't feel like a grind (SC, CS, Tribes, WOW, LoL, Planetside, Civ4, Alpha Centauri, MOO2, and others.)
As for players skipping story? Well I mean...the fact that there's a story to skip sort of ruins the whole idea that there isn't a story, doesn't it?
I'm not sure why skipping matters anyway. If I played the RPG you consider the Most RPG Of Them All and skipped all the storyline, would that magically make that game less of an RPG? Of course not.
You can criticize story quality or (ToR's big mistake) presentation method, but story clearly exists.
Well yeah, that's what I said earlier, grind is subjective. Usually players complain about doing the same thing over , and over, and over again. Which I don't see anything close to coming up with a solution for.
I'm kindof at a point where I don't really care for story. Maybe there should enough to know what's going on, but not overboard like SWTOR. I like the main storylines of TOR but almost everything else was a damn bore fest of the century.
I think thick stories belong in single player RPG's and less in MMO's.
I was like WTF? Where's the story when I first played UO, but now it seems mostly uneccessary.
Anyways, I feel that MMO's shouldn't cut back on things like loot and levels or try to devalue them to cater to those who are lazy.
Originally posted by bcbully TSW is going against this trend.
no offence m8 but it seems you dont get the whole picture here.....partly true since alot of games dont realy have good lore anymore but its (imo at least) the players that dont seem to want story anymore but then complain that the game is boring while they never read a single quest text.
Oh yeah to those smart guys out there saying "if i want a story i'll read a book".....1) have you ever read one or did you just skipp to the last pages to get to the end"game"?? 2) RPG used to be ALL about lore and storytelling.....if people want instant action they should play FPS imho and not RPG's.
Anyways......the term RPG in MMORPG has been dead for years, nothing you can do about it.
As far as video games are concerned, RPG's have always been about advancing your character through levels, loot, and story.
I believe crafting is much more of a virtual world feature, so it belongs in the MMORPG.
The thing is, I see a lot of players complaining about the "grind" of either leveling, looting, or crafting, and sometimes all of them. And I have to ask myself, what the hell are you doing playing these games?
The sad thing is, MMORPG makers are starting to cater to these complainers, taking away the things that makes RPG's RPG's.
Story can pretty much be forgotten about since the spacebar was player's favorite key in SWTOR.
Gear is on it's way out with games like GW2.
Leveling is pretty much the only thing we're left with, and I think it's probably gonna be on it's way out shortly also.
So, what does that leave us with? Something akin to street fighter online where you just log in to beat the shit out of mobs/players for I'm not sure what exactly. The "fun" of it I guess.
It's like anything that takes a little effort is frowned upon by the masses, and it's a damn shame.
Grinding to me is not how long something takes to complete or to reach a certain point. Instead, GRinding to me equates to the number of Varietys or ways to get those things done, and whether or not there are varieties that changes the routine up.
In SWTOR, there was only one way to get your PVP GEAR, and each day there is only one daily that you need to do and since it was RNG, if you didn't get it, then you don't get it, the game got boring after 2 weeks especially when there is nothing else for you to do. Because like all the other MMO's, when you finish an planet, there is no reason to return anymore.
GW2 atleast is saying that in WvWvW you will level by killing other players, you can level by participating in DE, you can level by hearts and by Crafting. Atleast some varieties to help you move along your journey. And since you can always be deleveled, all the contents are available to you, and when you are level 80, everything you do still earns you points that will be used to purchase new skills.
There is a serious need to increase the leveling curve so that we will no longer see anyone, regardless how hardcore they are to reach max level in less than a week by giving the gamers tons of things to do that keeps everyone occupied.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
But back to topic, RP in RPG means Role Playing, we are playing a ROLE.
It is a JOB within the Virtual World. That means I can become a Store Owner who manages a Store, sets the prices, buys and sells to others. It will become a JOB because you are playing a ROLE.
For all those that said that " I have a Real Job in Real life, why do I want one in a Game" See thats whats wrong with RPG. No one ever plays a Role anymore, its more of an Action Game now then an RPG, where i can just log in and play 5 minutes.
Everyone is automatically an Adventurer, everyone is automatically the Choosen one, everyone is automatically the master of crafts. In a game where everyone is Jack of all Trades, its no wonder we no longer have RPG.
Whats lost is the risks in MMORPG's. Developers and Companies are so afraid to alienate their players, they are making everything Generic. There is no longer uniqueness in our characters.
Until a game forces you to choose between putting skills in Trading or Adventuring or any of the different Craftings with finite numbers of skill points, RPG will not exist in MMORPG.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
gee, only 3 posts in and we start talking about gw2....sad.
GW2 cures cancer.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
gee, only 3 posts in and we start talking about gw2....sad.
GW2 cures cancer.
you don't have to read GW2 and automatically thinks that its all about it. I was just explaining that GW2 uses multiple paths to eliminate the feeling of Grind, althought The levels are too short and people were able to get to level 30 within the 3 days of BWE and I was hoping that future games will try to challenge the leveling curves and make it longer .
Geez, its not like GW2 is a bad game at all, whats all the hate, just because its popular and people uses it for an example doesn't mean that GW2 cures cancer.
I don't play WOW yet I still uses it for an example because it does have its good points too.
Same for AOC, same for Final Fantasy XI ( btw these are games that I actually knows and have played)
Even SWTOR have its good points, but like I explained, when there is one way to do things, it gets boring, and gets grindy.
Final Fantasy 2 ( IV in Japan) also is a very Grindy RPG, I remember back in the days, there was an Forest that you can level at, but there is always an Rare Encounter that you will have to pay attention at or you can get killed. That little Rare Encounter makes the grinding feeling disappear for a little while. That little variety changes the Grinding feeling.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
I'm more concerned about people who want to take the M out of MMORPG. There are a few threads knocking around about what people want in their next big MMO and there seems to be a trend towards more instant action, quicker entry to dungeons, Dungeon Finders etc.
Basically, lobby based games, which are not MMO's. That first M stands for MASSIVELY, and I think some people are confused as to what that means. It doesn't mean so many million play the game but the content is designed for a single group.
It doeasn't mean any kind of game that takes place on a server that holds 64 people. Yeah I'm talking to all the ones who keep on about DayZ when referring to what MMO's should be doing.
It means a game where very large numbers of people can interact and take part in large scale events. WoW barely scrapes in since it reduced it's raids from 40 man to 25 or 10. At least it has a large open world to make up for that.
MMO's should provide for the possibility of hundreds of players to take part in content, or it simply isn't Massive.
MMO's should provide for the possibility of hundreds of players to take part in content, or it simply isn't Massive.
The problem is that players will need a massive computer to handle that (ok, not massive, but a pretty good computer is pretty much a must if you don't want players to end up running with 5 FPS while hundred of players are all in the same area taking part of some content.)
I don't think we'll have a truly massive MMORPG until this issue is solved. Until then, developers and gamers will stick to accessibility. Which is a shame, but understandable.
As far as video games are concerned, RPG's have always been about advancing your character through levels, loot, and story.
I believe crafting is much more of a virtual world feature, so it belongs in the MMORPG.
The thing is, I see a lot of players complaining about the "grind" of either leveling, looting, or crafting, and sometimes all of them. And I have to ask myself, what the hell are you doing playing these games?
The sad thing is, MMORPG makers are starting to cater to these complainers, taking away the things that makes RPG's RPG's.
Story can pretty much be forgotten about since the spacebar was player's favorite key in SWTOR.
Gear is on it's way out with games like GW2.
Leveling is pretty much the only thing we're left with, and I think it's probably gonna be on it's way out shortly also.
So, what does that leave us with? Something akin to street fighter online where you just log in to beat the shit out of mobs/players for I'm not sure what exactly. The "fun" of it I guess.
It's like anything that takes a little effort is frowned upon by the masses, and it's a damn shame.
You are right in saying that RPGs have always been about advancing your character through levels, loot and story. However, and that's a big misconception, grinding was never part of it. I don't think D&D would've been popular if grinding was a focus of the games. What would've people said and done had they read on a box "The fun starts at level 20! " ? And just how awfully boring would the DM be?
Of course, grinding will never really be removed from MMORPGs, but the reason why players complain so much about grinding nowadays is that games are not even trying to cover it up. They're building the game with a lot of grinding involved and make it painfully obvious when you're told that the fun really begins at Level 80! So now you have to work your ass off to level 80 so you can enjoy the game even more....only to finally realize at Level 80 that now you have to grind again to get your epic gear. Game developers are not even trying to hide this anymore. It's all cookie-cutter. Cookie-cutter quests of fetch / kill / collect / steal the UPS guy's job. Cookie-cutter story, you're a hero, you save the world...except the farmer needs your help sheer his sheeps and won't let you pass until you help. Cookie-cutter crafting, pick a metal, pick a recipe, press a button, wait, get some random item.
If anything, the RPG part has already been removed from MMORPG, and until Developers start building worlds again rather than virtual skinner boxes, Mr.MMO and Ms.RPG won't be getting back together anytime soon.
Well yeah, that's what I said earlier, grind is subjective. Usually players complain about doing the same thing over , and over, and over again. Which I don't see anything close to coming up with a solution for.
I'm kindof at a point where I don't really care for story. Maybe there should enough to know what's going on, but not overboard like SWTOR. I like the main storylines of TOR but almost everything else was a damn bore fest of the century.
I think thick stories belong in single player RPG's and less in MMO's.
I was like WTF? Where's the story when I first played UO, but now it seems mostly uneccessary.
Anyways, I feel that MMO's shouldn't cut back on things like loot and levels or try to devalue them to cater to those who are lazy.
Well you're not going to come up with an absolute solution to grind, but if 40% of a game's players think it's a grind you can certainly reduce that number by a sizable amount by creating a game that's more fun.
If you don't care about story I guess I'm a little confused why you'd point to it when creating a thread about the loss of RPG in MMORPGs. It's not missing, you just don't care for it (which is fine.)
I'm still not convinced we're seeing less progression. TSW's progression may have been a little shaky (might've been the reason I stopped playing actually...it just wasn't clear where I could go to actually get better gear.) But games like RIFT are solid.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
This is meant as a response to both of you. Also, if you haven't, please read my independent post above as much of what I would say here was already written there.
I think you're missing a very important 3rd reason, Nitth. Many players have simply "seen the light" and now know that they can still have awesome character progression but without the grind. Games can still feature compelling character advancement systems and tons of rewards that make players feel all special and great when earned while being fun throughout the entire process by never resorting to one repetitive gameplay mechanism. So in this respect, I completely disagree with the assertion that every MMO or RPG must become grindy at some point if it is to have good character progression.
Now I'm right there with you on classic RPGs and grinding. I have done what I would today define as grind for hours upon hours upon days in every single one of the Final Fantasy games. I've duplicated Mime three times in FF7; I've used the Card ability on every single encounter in FF8 to intentionally keep my character levels below 10 until the end of disk 3 so I could then get a Rosetta Stone + Cactuar GF and proceed to level 1 character at a time (killing off the other 2) from 10-100 with str/vit/mag/spr Plus junctioned so I could maxiimze my potential stats during endgame; I've gotten 3 characters with full Sphere Grid clears in FF10; I've bothered to build my characters up and tediously kill Yiazmat in FF12. I've grinded the shit out of so many games in the past.
And I consider character progression to be my absolute favorite aspect of RPGs.
The problem I have with grinds today is that, in their own right, they're simply not fun. By definition they are boring. Perhaps it is a bit of modern ADD culture, but I simply couldn't do what I did back then today. Or if I did, I would have to also be reading a book or watching a movie or browsing facebook or whatever--because that's what most grinds are: brainless, monotonous, repetiive work that can be done while you're 85% afk. And that's just not fun.
I think most of the fun of the FF grinds I described was derived from the strategy involved in planning out those character progression goals and then eventually seeing them come to fruition. They usually led to incredibly overpowered characters, which is of course only a relative experience drawing comparisons to earlier fights against the same enemies. The computer could come up with bigger badder mobs that simply decimate me all over again, but that's neither here nor there. Within the single player game, your characters are now king. But anyone who has bothered to grind this much in single player games also knows how trivial and unfun this makes the rest of the game (not that there's usually any game left after all that.) Challenge and in the moment strategy disappears.
Notice how both of these scenarios pose major problems for MMOs. Imagine the who feels the inclination to do the insane FF-comparable grind does so and becomes ridiculously godlike compared to players who just wish to play the game normally. Such imbalance isn't fun for either player and isn't healthy for the game. And when such ridiculous power plateaus exist in MMOs and all the content becomes relatively trivial, does that not also become unfun? Now I'm going to use two games as examples here, and I know people like to recoil when either of these games are mentioned, so brace yourselves. The first is WoW simply because it's a common denominator that most can relate to. How much fun do you think players have raiding Molten Core today compared to in 2005? Sure, occasionally players probably dive in there, but mostly for nostalgia's sake. Once the thirst for nostalgia has been quenched, they likely become bored and leave. And this happens fast. WoW's tiered progression and ever increasing level and stat cap is the most quintessential example of RPG stat godliness.
Now for comparison, I offer you--wait for it--GW2. Now this is speculation and the future absolutely remains to be seen, but I know of no other game that features a similar level-down system. (Some main campaign parts of FFXI required obligatory downleveling, and the same points apply.) 8 years from now, GW2 veterans will still be able to return to the classic original dungeons, still be challenged, and still earn rewards that are relevant to their current progression. Meanwhile, they do continue to progress slightly in stats (and believe me, if you played FFXI you'd know just how much players are willing to do for ONE stat point in the min/maxing world); they do earn karma and gold extra skill points and crafting materials, all which translate into slightly better stats on new transmutated gear and a more flexible character setup. Now to assume any more about the state of GW2 progression 8 years from now would only be to assert wild guesses. But the reality 8 years from now is irrelevant. You can see the ideal I'm trying to depict.
And here I shall stop before this wall of text becomes unreadable. I don't expect this to be the end of this conversation. I myself see open counter arguments I have yet to address and which I won't just yet. I'll allow the conversation to continue first, hopefully politely
That's a very well written out post and i aggree with most of it.
However i'm still not sold on grind. Working at a slow pace towards any goal no matter how well its designed as fun, will eventually turn into grind once a players will has been broken.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Why not just buy a morpg to get your 4 week fix?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
As someone who started role-playing in 1977 when all we had was the Blue Box OD&D set, six to eight assorted lead figures and some polyhedral dice I have a different definition of role-playing to the original poster.
To get real role-playing into a game you probably need to have the following ...
Well I knew a PnP dude was gonna show up, but I thought I could avoid em by saying video game RPG's.
Never played a PnP RPG in my life so I can't say much about em. Would think they have PnP forums.
I don't think PnP games can be perfectly recreated by the way the players describe them.
You pretty much need an open book and a fully scriptable game to recreate something like that.
Could be cool to have a MMOPnP on a computer or something but to me it is a whole seperate beast than an MMORPG.
In PnP games your character is more of a manifestation of your imagination, and not taking control of a premade hero like in a typical video game RPG.
The way I see it, in an MMO, there's a concept of citizenship that you don't have in single-player games. You are not just leveling, you are trying to reach some threshold of standing in the community where people will look at you as a peer. That's generally the level cap or skill cap.
Once this perception sets in, the act of leveling ceases to be about personal growth and is more like completing a coming-of-age ritual. And that's where it becomes a grind.
How do you fight it? By making it easier to reach the level cap, but then offering a plethora of different parallel post-cap progression paths, to the point where it is impossible for a single player to do everything that is conceivably possible. You get citizenship, but also unique identity in what you choose to do with your time.
I'm going to disagree on that.
I know you're a fan of Blizzard's games and probably Diablo, right? In hack and slash RPGs like Diablo, you do indeed advance your character through levels, loot and story. However, in more traditional RPGs, such as Baldur's Gate, Fallout 1/2/NV, Torment, KotOR, The Witcher, etc. you advance though the story, leveling up and getting loot in the process.
That's a very important difference. You don't grind for loot in BG2. You go to a dragon's lair, kill it and get the loot. All at once, no additional runs required.
I'm not saying this is what MMOs should be like. In fact, I don't think MMOs can work like "normal" RPGs. When they try to, we get things like SWTOR. However, I do think you're using the wrong term. RPG is not being taken out of MMORPG. Diablo is. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is another matter.
I am ashamed to admit running back and forth across the continent in the hopes of being ambushed by wandering monsters to fight and loot.
Those games weren't heavily focused on loot, but the loot and xp is still part of the equation. A big difference here though is that those games are meant to be played through for mainly the story.
Loot and xp have been a part, maybe not the main part, of pretty much every RPG I've played since the NES. Without the loot and xp Diablo would probably just be called an action game.
Yes, but loot and XP are still part of the equation in new MMOs like TOR, TSW and GW2. In fact, one of the reasons why I like GW2 so much is that it doesn't feel like you're running around to level up and get better gear, like in Diablo and pretty much all themepark MMOs with quest hubs. It feels like you're running around to see some cool stuff and level up, getting better gear while you're at it, like in the RPGs I mentioned in my previous post. It feels like playing Morrowind and that's one of my all-time favorites.
I agree that a video game RPG wouldn't be a real RPG without gear and levels. However, I don't think them taking a back seat to everything else makes a game less of a RPG.
Come to think of it, Fallout 1 and 2 had some really nice special random encounters. I guess you CAN grind in them, too, but it's far from the main point of those games.
I played the real pen and paper D&D AD&D D20 RPG. I was a friend of Gary Gygax since I was raised and still live in lake Geneva Wisconsin, we would talk about digital version of D&D and he and I agreed (we had numerous conversation about MMORPG's) World of warcraft was one Ernie tried ,and he thought it was very lacking in RPG elements . It wasn't a software limitation, it's just that it missed the elements to properly roleplay you avatar.
He said "upon trying it, I felt a large disconnect between the avatar I created, and the tools the game failed to provide to offer me the options to roleplay the avatar properly."
And that had me thinking? Can a themepark that is focused on acquiring gear as a means of progression with levels, really provides a proper RPG experience?.
I think it's a huge question that still need to be explored and debated. But I feel a game that provides the tools to create player driven content and quest is a good step to a true RPG experience. And also, you have to have forget balance because, even though there are consequences for say, picking a players pockets and maybe stealing his sword or ring or gold, it's still should be possible.
Also being able to climb a wall if you have the dexterity and break in to a home and steal the players possessions is also something we don't see that should be in RPG MMOs. Of course, if you get caught thats the part Ernie would kind of chuckle telling me I was surrounded by the town guard.
I feel (my opinion) any MMO that fails to provide the tools for player created content (not just crafting) is really only a facsimile of a true RPG.
The main difference between P&P and MMOs is that P&P games have "real" GMs. When a P&P ruleset doesn't specify what to roll when you want to do a backflip, the GM can tell you to do a Dexterity check. When WoW's ruleset doesn't specify that same thing, there's nothing you can do. No one has figured out how to fix that, so unless someone invents an AI capable of DMing, we won't see P&P-like MMOs in the near future.
NWN was supposed to have DMs, but I never got the chance to play it, unfortunately.
Your kidding right? Then again, you just might not get it.
I just don't feel like it would translate well. Even though I never played the PnP games, I think there's a big difference between being face to face with a small group of friends who will play by the rules to some extent unless they face the wrath of the GM and, or being thrown out the house, than a handful to a huge ass zerg of random players who would abuse a real open RPG system every chance they got.
I don't know, I guess we'll never know until someone tries to make a game that focuses on real RPing with a complex system, instead of stab monster get loot.
This is what I'm trying to say too. A game would have to have every possible thing imaginable a player could do programmed into the game or it wouldn't feel like a PnP game. What if I want to pick my nose and stare blankly at a monster that's trying to kill me? Should I program that into the game?
A game doesn't have to literally last forever to avoid being called a grind. Pretty much all the games I played longer than a year didn't feel like a grind (SC, CS, Tribes, WOW, LoL, Planetside, Civ4, Alpha Centauri, MOO2, and others.)
As for players skipping story? Well I mean...the fact that there's a story to skip sort of ruins the whole idea that there isn't a story, doesn't it?
I'm not sure why skipping matters anyway. If I played the RPG you consider the Most RPG Of Them All and skipped all the storyline, would that magically make that game less of an RPG? Of course not.
You can criticize story quality or (ToR's big mistake) presentation method, but story clearly exists.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well yeah, that's what I said earlier, grind is subjective. Usually players complain about doing the same thing over , and over, and over again. Which I don't see anything close to coming up with a solution for.
I'm kindof at a point where I don't really care for story. Maybe there should enough to know what's going on, but not overboard like SWTOR. I like the main storylines of TOR but almost everything else was a damn bore fest of the century.
I think thick stories belong in single player RPG's and less in MMO's.
I was like WTF? Where's the story when I first played UO, but now it seems mostly uneccessary.
Anyways, I feel that MMO's shouldn't cut back on things like loot and levels or try to devalue them to cater to those who are lazy.
no offence m8 but it seems you dont get the whole picture here.....partly true since alot of games dont realy have good lore anymore but its (imo at least) the players that dont seem to want story anymore but then complain that the game is boring while they never read a single quest text.
Oh yeah to those smart guys out there saying "if i want a story i'll read a book".....1) have you ever read one or did you just skipp to the last pages to get to the end"game"?? 2) RPG used to be ALL about lore and storytelling.....if people want instant action they should play FPS imho and not RPG's.
Anyways......the term RPG in MMORPG has been dead for years, nothing you can do about it.
Grinding to me is not how long something takes to complete or to reach a certain point. Instead, GRinding to me equates to the number of Varietys or ways to get those things done, and whether or not there are varieties that changes the routine up.
In SWTOR, there was only one way to get your PVP GEAR, and each day there is only one daily that you need to do and since it was RNG, if you didn't get it, then you don't get it, the game got boring after 2 weeks especially when there is nothing else for you to do. Because like all the other MMO's, when you finish an planet, there is no reason to return anymore.
GW2 atleast is saying that in WvWvW you will level by killing other players, you can level by participating in DE, you can level by hearts and by Crafting. Atleast some varieties to help you move along your journey. And since you can always be deleveled, all the contents are available to you, and when you are level 80, everything you do still earns you points that will be used to purchase new skills.
There is a serious need to increase the leveling curve so that we will no longer see anyone, regardless how hardcore they are to reach max level in less than a week by giving the gamers tons of things to do that keeps everyone occupied.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
But back to topic, RP in RPG means Role Playing, we are playing a ROLE.
It is a JOB within the Virtual World. That means I can become a Store Owner who manages a Store, sets the prices, buys and sells to others. It will become a JOB because you are playing a ROLE.
For all those that said that " I have a Real Job in Real life, why do I want one in a Game" See thats whats wrong with RPG. No one ever plays a Role anymore, its more of an Action Game now then an RPG, where i can just log in and play 5 minutes.
Everyone is automatically an Adventurer, everyone is automatically the Choosen one, everyone is automatically the master of crafts. In a game where everyone is Jack of all Trades, its no wonder we no longer have RPG.
Whats lost is the risks in MMORPG's. Developers and Companies are so afraid to alienate their players, they are making everything Generic. There is no longer uniqueness in our characters.
Until a game forces you to choose between putting skills in Trading or Adventuring or any of the different Craftings with finite numbers of skill points, RPG will not exist in MMORPG.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
GW2 cures cancer.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
you don't have to read GW2 and automatically thinks that its all about it. I was just explaining that GW2 uses multiple paths to eliminate the feeling of Grind, althought The levels are too short and people were able to get to level 30 within the 3 days of BWE and I was hoping that future games will try to challenge the leveling curves and make it longer .
Geez, its not like GW2 is a bad game at all, whats all the hate, just because its popular and people uses it for an example doesn't mean that GW2 cures cancer.
I don't play WOW yet I still uses it for an example because it does have its good points too.
Same for AOC, same for Final Fantasy XI ( btw these are games that I actually knows and have played)
Even SWTOR have its good points, but like I explained, when there is one way to do things, it gets boring, and gets grindy.
Final Fantasy 2 ( IV in Japan) also is a very Grindy RPG, I remember back in the days, there was an Forest that you can level at, but there is always an Rare Encounter that you will have to pay attention at or you can get killed. That little Rare Encounter makes the grinding feeling disappear for a little while. That little variety changes the Grinding feeling.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
I'm more concerned about people who want to take the M out of MMORPG. There are a few threads knocking around about what people want in their next big MMO and there seems to be a trend towards more instant action, quicker entry to dungeons, Dungeon Finders etc.
Basically, lobby based games, which are not MMO's. That first M stands for MASSIVELY, and I think some people are confused as to what that means. It doesn't mean so many million play the game but the content is designed for a single group.
It doeasn't mean any kind of game that takes place on a server that holds 64 people. Yeah I'm talking to all the ones who keep on about DayZ when referring to what MMO's should be doing.
It means a game where very large numbers of people can interact and take part in large scale events. WoW barely scrapes in since it reduced it's raids from 40 man to 25 or 10. At least it has a large open world to make up for that.
MMO's should provide for the possibility of hundreds of players to take part in content, or it simply isn't Massive.
The problem is that players will need a massive computer to handle that (ok, not massive, but a pretty good computer is pretty much a must if you don't want players to end up running with 5 FPS while hundred of players are all in the same area taking part of some content.)
I don't think we'll have a truly massive MMORPG until this issue is solved. Until then, developers and gamers will stick to accessibility. Which is a shame, but understandable.
You are right in saying that RPGs have always been about advancing your character through levels, loot and story. However, and that's a big misconception, grinding was never part of it. I don't think D&D would've been popular if grinding was a focus of the games. What would've people said and done had they read on a box "The fun starts at level 20! " ? And just how awfully boring would the DM be?
Of course, grinding will never really be removed from MMORPGs, but the reason why players complain so much about grinding nowadays is that games are not even trying to cover it up. They're building the game with a lot of grinding involved and make it painfully obvious when you're told that the fun really begins at Level 80! So now you have to work your ass off to level 80 so you can enjoy the game even more....only to finally realize at Level 80 that now you have to grind again to get your epic gear. Game developers are not even trying to hide this anymore. It's all cookie-cutter. Cookie-cutter quests of fetch / kill / collect / steal the UPS guy's job. Cookie-cutter story, you're a hero, you save the world...except the farmer needs your help sheer his sheeps and won't let you pass until you help. Cookie-cutter crafting, pick a metal, pick a recipe, press a button, wait, get some random item.
If anything, the RPG part has already been removed from MMORPG, and until Developers start building worlds again rather than virtual skinner boxes, Mr.MMO and Ms.RPG won't be getting back together anytime soon.
Well you're not going to come up with an absolute solution to grind, but if 40% of a game's players think it's a grind you can certainly reduce that number by a sizable amount by creating a game that's more fun.
If you don't care about story I guess I'm a little confused why you'd point to it when creating a thread about the loss of RPG in MMORPGs. It's not missing, you just don't care for it (which is fine.)
I'm still not convinced we're seeing less progression. TSW's progression may have been a little shaky (might've been the reason I stopped playing actually...it just wasn't clear where I could go to actually get better gear.) But games like RIFT are solid.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver