In a classic role-playing games a character is played in a world based on rules and this a character is built from those rules just like MMO games but the difference is that the gamers actually run the rules themselves rather than rely on the computer to do it for you.
By learning those complex mechanics players of classic games became programmers, writers and people who later build the computing side of the role-playing hobby. Those classic role-playing games are the parents of video role-playing games.
If you want a deeper role-playing experience, with games not designed to be played by teenagers, then you probably have to get back to the roots of this hobby.
The reason a lot of people are unhappy with what you seem to term "role-playing", such as crafting, is probably because the human interaction is not deep enough to substain people's attention and build relationships. Those twitch gamers instead prefer to storm across a world, becoming ever more powerful, rather than explore, collect and craft.
Although this is again ancient history for you, try searching for NeverWinter Nights to see an example of a cross-over game.
But back to topic, RP in RPG means Role Playing, we are playing a ROLE.
It is a JOB within the Virtual World. That means I can become a Store Owner who manages a Store, sets the prices, buys and sells to others. It will become a JOB because you are playing a ROLE.
For all those that said that " I have a Real Job in Real life, why do I want one in a Game" See thats whats wrong with RPG. No one ever plays a Role anymore, its more of an Action Game now then an RPG, where i can just log in and play 5 minutes.
Everyone is automatically an Adventurer, everyone is automatically the Choosen one, everyone is automatically the master of crafts. In a game where everyone is Jack of all Trades, its no wonder we no longer have RPG.
Whats lost is the risks in MMORPG's. Developers and Companies are so afraid to alienate their players, they are making everything Generic. There is no longer uniqueness in our characters.
Until a game forces you to choose between putting skills in Trading or Adventuring or any of the different Craftings with finite numbers of skill points, RPG will not exist in MMORPG.
This is the area I see a lot of people confusing things in terms of the difference between video game RPG's and PnP RPG's.
Guys like me who come from backgrounds of video game RPG's (NOT MUDs) only aren't used to actually just making stuff up using our imagination. We're used to taking on the role of the protaganist. who doesn't have a means to use real chat and the ability to do whatever our imagination can think up.
Yeah it would be great to be able to perform any action I can think up but the amount of work that would take to actually put in a game probably isn't worth the effort seeing as a majority of those actions are useless.
I would think something that is human and imagination controlled can immerse someone much more than any arbitrary set of things programmed into a game.
I think some of you are looking for an online PnP simulator, in which case, it would probably have to be text based only.
What I see from guys who try to actually play some time as an alter ego in MMO's, they just use text, and emotes, which is probably the best medium for roleplaying. But I could do that in a chat room.
BTW, yeah I agree it would be cool to have real store owners but there would have to be some sort of gameplay inside their house that doesn't bore them to tears. Think for a minute how fun it would actually be to sit in your in game house and wait for customers to come wondering by without any gameplay.
It might be fun for the dude with a premo spot who gets a lot of customers but what about other 99% of the merchants who have a store in the middle of nowhere? Not fun at all.
2. Open World Player Made Citys / Housing (Political System)
3. Player run Stores (Auction Houses owned by individuals)
4. Dropable Harvestors and Random Mining Locations that change.
5. A Seamless Open World without Restrictions
We will always have what we got now, a MMO without the RPG in it.
Do you even know the definition of RPG? Or is that also player made?
Your kidding right? Then again, you just might not get it.
No, are you kidding? Or is this a part of your fantasy world you visoned where you also get to create your own interpretation of what the word really means.
2. Open World Player Made Citys / Housing (Political System)
3. Player run Stores (Auction Houses owned by individuals)
4. Dropable Harvestors and Random Mining Locations that change.
5. A Seamless Open World without Restrictions
We will always have what we got now, a MMO without the RPG in it.
sounds like Archage is exactly the game you are looking for.
sadly in Archage that requires alot of real money in order to access any of those features.
And looking at Star Wars Galaxies a mmo that had many of thoughs features, its safe to say that that kind of mmo doesn't bring in that many players nor that much money.
As far as video games are concerned, RPG's have always been about advancing your character through levels, loot, and story.
Yet none of those things have anything to do with actual roleplaying. Let's look at them in reverse order:
1. Story. There is no individual story in video games, especially in MMOs. Everyone does the same thing. Everyone kills the same dragon. Everyone rescues the same princess. Everyone becomes the same hero. There's a story but it's pre-programmed and you can't opt out of it. You no more shape that story in an MMO than you do when playing Halo. Everyone is Master Chief, everyone plays the same game, everyone who finishes gets the same rewards. Nobody in their right mind pretends they're roleplaying Master Chief.
2. Loot. Loot really means nothing in a game, there's just so much of it that it becomes a blur. How much crap do you shovel into your bag in every random dungeon you go through, only to drag it back to town and throw it into an automated shopkeeper's hopper for some gold? That's advancement?
3. Levels. Levels aren't roleplaying either. Levels are arbitrary markers delineating how far you've gone through the game. If there are 50 levels before endgame, all they really are is an easy gauge for determining how close you are. I guess they are advancement after a fashion but your character doesn't really get much out of it, except the ability to fight the exact same mobs he's been fighting the last 4 levels painted a different color.
The thing is, I see a lot of players complaining about the "grind" of either leveling, looting, or crafting, and sometimes all of them. And I have to ask myself, what the hell are you doing playing these games?
Because many times, these things are done very, very badly in a game. It's not necessarily the mechanic itself that's bad, but how it's implemented.
So, what does that leave us with? Something akin to street fighter online where you just log in to beat the shit out of mobs/players for I'm not sure what exactly. The "fun" of it I guess.
These games are supposed to be fun. See, the reality is, games of all kinds really are time-wasters. They're something you do when you're bored. They are not supposed to be the focus of someone's life, yet for a small but very vocal group, they are just that. They become the center of their world, an escape from reality and a whole different world, not just to explore now and then, but to forge an entirely new and different life to make them forget how crappy their real life actually is.
Basically, lobby based games, which are not MMO's. That first M stands for MASSIVELY, and I think some people are confused as to what that means. It doesn't mean so many million play the game but the content is designed for a single group.
No one is confused. MMOs are turning into lobby based games.
Last time i played WOW, lots of people waiting in Orgrimmar waiting for their dungeons. Now tell me that is not the case.
No matter what M stands for, WOW, DCUO, and many other MMOs are turning into lobby based games. There is no confusion.
Sweet lord, maybe they should just change the term for video game RPG's, because almost none of them that I played are actually role playing that the PnPers know it as.
This is why I don't like talking about the subject with PnPers.
As far as video games are concerned, RPG's have always been about advancing your character through levels, loot, and story.
I'm going to disagree on that.
I know you're a fan of Blizzard's games and probably Diablo, right? In hack and slash RPGs like Diablo, you do indeed advance your character through levels, loot and story. However, in more traditional RPGs, such as Baldur's Gate, Fallout 1/2/NV, Torment, KotOR, The Witcher, etc. you advance though the story, leveling up and getting loot in the process.
That's a very important difference. You don't grind for loot in BG2. You go to a dragon's lair, kill it and get the loot. All at once, no additional runs required.
I'm not saying this is what MMOs should be like. In fact, I don't think MMOs can work like "normal" RPGs. When they try to, we get things like SWTOR. However, I do think you're using the wrong term. RPG is not being taken out of MMORPG. Diablo is. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is another matter.
Hmm .. you are saying EXACTLY the same thing as he does. The three elements of CRPG, as he pointed out, is levels, loot and story.
He did not say whether you are doing it with one run (BG) or 100 run (Diablo).
Originally posted by jusomdude MMO's are made to be played for many hours, more than any other genre. Not talking about one sitting, just over the game's lifespan. The thing is, there can only be so many things to do as core gameplay, not talking about 10 minute mini games and what have you. So any type of gameplay inevitably becomes "grinding." The question is, do you want to be rewarded for that grinding or not? The only way to make it not feel like grinding is to make it fun, and that's the challenge.. how the hell do you make something infinitely fun? Seems impossible.If I'm meant to be playing a game for years, I want to be advancing my character in some form that actually has a noticable effect. Titles, achievements, these things are useless to me, and I don't care if they're in the game or not. If I'm not gaining power, I feel like I'm not progressing, then I lose interest in the game.
This assumption needs to be re-examined. I would much rather have a really fun 4 weeks, than a year of so-so gaming.
Why not just buy a morpg to get your 4 week fix?
Of course i do that too.
But if a fun MMO fits the bill, is there a reason not to play it for 4 weeks?
- I think that honour will go to 'End game is the epitaph of the MMO". Modern MMO's have a real problem with giving you any reason to stay after you leveled to top level in a month. It is already the reason so many fall to gutter so quickly.
For me RPG is about roleplaying between players and roleplaying tools in a MMO. These days it just means leveling and class.
Sweet lord, maybe they should just change the term for video game RPG's, because almost none of them that I played are actually role playing that the PnPers know it as.
This is why I don't like talking about the subject with PnPers.
You are misunderstanding my example and using it as PnP rpg.
When you can play an Store Owner its an Game in itself, as long as its an Viable Role.
Very Simply, you can set up an Trader as an actual Class that can identify loot, discovering Schematics, receipes....etc, a class that levels up, gains skills to identify harder items that adventurers gets when they kill Mobs.
As long as the game makes that Trader Class Viable, then its an actual class that doesn't require you to Adventure and become the hero like millions other.
Currently there is only one Role in RPG's, The Role of the Hero, the Role of the Chosen One, what many is saying is that in an MMO, we should be given Options in the Roles we play. We can play the role of an Crafter if its an Class of its own, there are also Roles of an Explorer, Roles of an information trader.....etc
In this day and age, there is no reason why the Role of an Hero Adventurer is the only viable role that we can play.
It doesn't even have to be a Sandbox MMO, a typical Themepark MMO is also doable as long as those classes are flushed out with skill ups and viable means within the world.
The only one reason why they won't do this is because they have to make contents that is only available to a certain class, instead of making everything generic and doable by everyone. But we already have those, its called PERSONAL STORY QUESTS.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
As far as video games are concerned, RPG's have always been about advancing your character through levels, loot, and story.
I believe crafting is much more of a virtual world feature, so it belongs in the MMORPG.
The thing is, I see a lot of players complaining about the "grind" of either leveling, looting, or crafting, and sometimes all of them. And I have to ask myself, what the hell are you doing playing these games?
The sad thing is, MMORPG makers are starting to cater to these complainers, taking away the things that makes RPG's RPG's.
Story can pretty much be forgotten about since the spacebar was player's favorite key in SWTOR.
Gear is on it's way out with games like GW2.
Leveling is pretty much the only thing we're left with, and I think it's probably gonna be on it's way out shortly also.
So, what does that leave us with? Something akin to street fighter online where you just log in to beat the shit out of mobs/players for I'm not sure what exactly. The "fun" of it I guess.
It's like anything that takes a little effort is frowned upon by the masses, and it's a damn shame.
RPG is about so much more, is it about being your character instead of just playing a normal game. A good RPG (computer or pen and paper) will make you feel like you actually are your character.
MMORPGs have generally not been that successful with this even if there are some great exceptions, like Asherons call.
The problem with RPGs is that it takes time and effort to really get into the game. You don´t log in 20 minutes every now and then to a RPG. But in todays world people are more and more in a hurry (I blame #¤%& cellphones) so many want a quick gaming fix you can log in and out of fast, preferably on your IPAD.
But I think the tide will turn in a few years. Gaming tend to come in trends just like music and movies. And while we can discuss if many MMOs are RPGs or not, that does not mean that RPGs are fun and MMOs more FPS like is boring, good games are good games and bad ones are bad.
I do hope CCP put in more work into WoDO, that game will hopefully add more RPG in the genre than we ever seen before.
Sweet lord, maybe they should just change the term for video game RPG's, because almost none of them that I played are actually role playing that the PnPers know it as.
This is why I don't like talking about the subject with PnPers.
Yeah, because they're right. The video game industry co-opted the term "RPG" from PnP games in hopes of appealing to them in the early days. It's virtually impossible to actually roleplay in these games, at best you can do a shallow version of "this is my character, I can talk funny".
Sweet lord, maybe they should just change the term for video game RPG's, because almost none of them that I played are actually role playing that the PnPers know it as.
This is why I don't like talking about the subject with PnPers.
Yeah, because they're right. The video game industry co-opted the term "RPG" from PnP games in hopes of appealing to them in the early days. It's virtually impossible to actually roleplay in these games, at best you can do a shallow version of "this is my character, I can talk funny".
That's not roleplaying.
Even in PnP circles you get fights over what RPing really is. I used to play PnP RPGs for a few years and then people in my group got into LARPing. I saw no point in dressing up as my character so I could never get into this so we went our sepeare ways. I like to think of role playing as a mindset where you try to figure otu what your character would/should do rather than actually pretending to be that character.
Originally posted by Scot "Leveling is the epitaph of the MMORPG"- I think that honour will go to 'End game is the epitaph of the MMO". Modern MMO's have a real problem with giving you any reason to stay after you leveled to top level in a month. It is already the reason so many fall to gutter so quickly.For me RPG is about roleplaying between players and roleplaying tools in a MMO. These days it just means leveling and class.
An epitaph is a short bit of text honoring a deceased person or thing. What you write on a tombstone. "Death Knell" would be a better phrase here.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That's a very well written out post and i aggree with most of it.
However i'm still not sold on grind. Working at a slow pace towards any goal no matter how well its designed as fun, will eventually turn into grind once a players will has been broken.
Not adding anything meaningful, just loved the mental image of Darth MMO electrocuting players telling them to join the Dark Side.
Having started in video game RPG's (My first ever was DAoC) and working back to paper (though I still fluctuate between the two), roleplaying is ENTIRELY up to the player in an MMORPG. I'll grant you all that most MMO's these days have made it more of a challenge to enter that mindset, but I still remember playing a Troll (Dark Age, not WoW) Healer and sitting in one of the towns for over 2 hours while a small group of us crafted an elaborate story behind farming the hell out of wolves.
In SWG, I made a Jedi wookie (Yes, I wanted to go woosh woosh while making incoherent growls, ya wanna fight about it?) and stumbled upon a Sith Enclave where I went down the dark side. The player city helped the experience, but that sure as hell wasn't what SOE intended.
I've also had numerous nights sitting in The Blue Recluse in WoW as a Gnome mage trying to pick up night elf druids (no success, to my dismay).
But by far, the most immersive roleplaying I've had in an MMO was LOTRO. I'll agree to high heavens that the PvE progression in the game was less than stellar and it had a shoddy PvP system as well by the time Mines of Moria was out. I probably spent twice as long sitting in The Prancing Pony having all sorts of love affairs, assassination attempts and just straight up foolishness than I ever did out questing.
My point being, by having a willing community, an open/creative imagination and a likable avatar, you can create scenarios and experiences.
TL;DR Roleplaying is possible in almost every MMO, but it's up to you to make it happen.
Even in PnP circles you get fights over what RPing really is. I used to play PnP RPGs for a few years and then people in my group got into LARPing. I saw no point in dressing up as my character so I could never get into this so we went our sepeare ways. I like to think of role playing as a mindset where you try to figure otu what your character would/should do rather than actually pretending to be that character.
I'd argue that the single greatest hallmark of roleplaying is freedom. Freedom to do whatever you want to do within the rules of the game. What I mean by that is you can't just decide your character is going to fly out of the blue, although if you're playing a supers game, that's debatable. In a good roleplaying game, you are limited only by your imagination. If you want to go left, you go left. If you want to go right, you go right. If you want to stop and sit down and not move, you can do that too.
However, in MMOs, you have very little actual freedom in what you do. The game is built around killing things. If you don't kill things, you are at a serious disadvantage in leveling. Most XP is tied up in racking up a body count. If you decide, for instance, to play a Jainist character and refuse to ever kill anything, from the meanest monster to the most innocent dragonfly, how far will you actually progress in the game? Not very far. These games exist for the sake of combat. If you choose to opt out of combat for roleplaying reasons, there's no reason to actually play these games. There's really only one viable path through any MMO out there and that's through combat. It's like pretending you can play Halo by making peace with the Covenant. You just don't get that option.
I'd argue that the single greatest hallmark of roleplaying is freedom. Freedom to do whatever you want to do within the rules of the game. What I mean by that is you can't just decide your character is going to fly out of the blue, although if you're playing a supers game, that's debatable. In a good roleplaying game, you are limited only by your imagination. If you want to go left, you go left. If you want to go right, you go right. If you want to stop and sit down and not move, you can do that too.
However, in MMOs, you have very little actual freedom in what you do. The game is built around killing things. If you don't kill things, you are at a serious disadvantage in leveling. Most XP is tied up in racking up a body count. If you decide, for instance, to play a Jainist character and refuse to ever kill anything, from the meanest monster to the most innocent dragonfly, how far will you actually progress in the game? Not very far. These games exist for the sake of combat. If you choose to opt out of combat for roleplaying reasons, there's no reason to actually play these games. There's really only one viable path through any MMO out there and that's through combat. It's like pretending you can play Halo by making peace with the Covenant. You just don't get that option.
People consistently make the mistake of assuming tabletop RPG is the same term as videogame RPG, when it fact both terms have long histories with accumulated expectations. And in the last 25+ years of videogame RPGs, those games haven't been characterized by a huge amount of freedom. They have more freedom than some games, but it's not like you could go anywhere and do anything in Ultima 3 or Sword of Fargoal or Final Fantasy 3 or Dragon Quest or Baldur's Gate or...you get the idea.
There's 25 years worth of RPGs I could name where the overwhelming majority of them have constraints which are basically in line with modern themepark MMORPGs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
In a classic role-playing games a character is played in a world based on rules and this a character is built from those rules just like MMO games but the difference is that the gamers actually run the rules themselves rather than rely on the computer to do it for you.
By learning those complex mechanics players of classic games became programmers, writers and people who later build the computing side of the role-playing hobby. Those classic role-playing games are the parents of video role-playing games.
If you want a deeper role-playing experience, with games not designed to be played by teenagers, then you probably have to get back to the roots of this hobby.
The reason a lot of people are unhappy with what you seem to term "role-playing", such as crafting, is probably because the human interaction is not deep enough to substain people's attention and build relationships. Those twitch gamers instead prefer to storm across a world, becoming ever more powerful, rather than explore, collect and craft.
Although this is again ancient history for you, try searching for NeverWinter Nights to see an example of a cross-over game.
Wrong Love to play poker for fun.
This is the area I see a lot of people confusing things in terms of the difference between video game RPG's and PnP RPG's.
Guys like me who come from backgrounds of video game RPG's (NOT MUDs) only aren't used to actually just making stuff up using our imagination. We're used to taking on the role of the protaganist. who doesn't have a means to use real chat and the ability to do whatever our imagination can think up.
Yeah it would be great to be able to perform any action I can think up but the amount of work that would take to actually put in a game probably isn't worth the effort seeing as a majority of those actions are useless.
I would think something that is human and imagination controlled can immerse someone much more than any arbitrary set of things programmed into a game.
I think some of you are looking for an online PnP simulator, in which case, it would probably have to be text based only.
What I see from guys who try to actually play some time as an alter ego in MMO's, they just use text, and emotes, which is probably the best medium for roleplaying. But I could do that in a chat room.
BTW, yeah I agree it would be cool to have real store owners but there would have to be some sort of gameplay inside their house that doesn't bore them to tears. Think for a minute how fun it would actually be to sit in your in game house and wait for customers to come wondering by without any gameplay.
It might be fun for the dude with a premo spot who gets a lot of customers but what about other 99% of the merchants who have a store in the middle of nowhere? Not fun at all.
*cringe*
Don't you get tired of a game telling you who you are and what you are doing?
Just an example...
No, are you kidding? Or is this a part of your fantasy world you visoned where you also get to create your own interpretation of what the word really means.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5187563#5187563
sadly in Archage that requires alot of real money in order to access any of those features.
And looking at Star Wars Galaxies a mmo that had many of thoughs features, its safe to say that that kind of mmo doesn't bring in that many players nor that much money.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Nope. Particularly good games with good stories and mechanics.
I mean .. if you play a FPS, you know you are going to shoot stuff, right?
No one is confused. MMOs are turning into lobby based games.
Last time i played WOW, lots of people waiting in Orgrimmar waiting for their dungeons. Now tell me that is not the case.
No matter what M stands for, WOW, DCUO, and many other MMOs are turning into lobby based games. There is no confusion.
Sweet lord, maybe they should just change the term for video game RPG's, because almost none of them that I played are actually role playing that the PnPers know it as.
This is why I don't like talking about the subject with PnPers.
Hmm .. you are saying EXACTLY the same thing as he does. The three elements of CRPG, as he pointed out, is levels, loot and story.
He did not say whether you are doing it with one run (BG) or 100 run (Diablo).
The 3 elements are the same.
Remember the days when no one complained about the grind, now if there is any quest where it says kill 10 of something, people complain about a grind.
To quote a line from one of my favorite RPG's.
"Leveling is the epitaph of the MMORPG"
Of course i do that too.
But if a fun MMO fits the bill, is there a reason not to play it for 4 weeks?
"Leveling is the epitaph of the MMORPG"
- I think that honour will go to 'End game is the epitaph of the MMO". Modern MMO's have a real problem with giving you any reason to stay after you leveled to top level in a month. It is already the reason so many fall to gutter so quickly.
For me RPG is about roleplaying between players and roleplaying tools in a MMO. These days it just means leveling and class.
You are misunderstanding my example and using it as PnP rpg.
When you can play an Store Owner its an Game in itself, as long as its an Viable Role.
Very Simply, you can set up an Trader as an actual Class that can identify loot, discovering Schematics, receipes....etc, a class that levels up, gains skills to identify harder items that adventurers gets when they kill Mobs.
As long as the game makes that Trader Class Viable, then its an actual class that doesn't require you to Adventure and become the hero like millions other.
Currently there is only one Role in RPG's, The Role of the Hero, the Role of the Chosen One, what many is saying is that in an MMO, we should be given Options in the Roles we play. We can play the role of an Crafter if its an Class of its own, there are also Roles of an Explorer, Roles of an information trader.....etc
In this day and age, there is no reason why the Role of an Hero Adventurer is the only viable role that we can play.
It doesn't even have to be a Sandbox MMO, a typical Themepark MMO is also doable as long as those classes are flushed out with skill ups and viable means within the world.
The only one reason why they won't do this is because they have to make contents that is only available to a certain class, instead of making everything generic and doable by everyone. But we already have those, its called PERSONAL STORY QUESTS.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
RPG is about so much more, is it about being your character instead of just playing a normal game. A good RPG (computer or pen and paper) will make you feel like you actually are your character.
MMORPGs have generally not been that successful with this even if there are some great exceptions, like Asherons call.
The problem with RPGs is that it takes time and effort to really get into the game. You don´t log in 20 minutes every now and then to a RPG. But in todays world people are more and more in a hurry (I blame #¤%& cellphones) so many want a quick gaming fix you can log in and out of fast, preferably on your IPAD.
But I think the tide will turn in a few years. Gaming tend to come in trends just like music and movies. And while we can discuss if many MMOs are RPGs or not, that does not mean that RPGs are fun and MMOs more FPS like is boring, good games are good games and bad ones are bad.
I do hope CCP put in more work into WoDO, that game will hopefully add more RPG in the genre than we ever seen before.
Yeah, because they're right. The video game industry co-opted the term "RPG" from PnP games in hopes of appealing to them in the early days. It's virtually impossible to actually roleplay in these games, at best you can do a shallow version of "this is my character, I can talk funny".
That's not roleplaying.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Even in PnP circles you get fights over what RPing really is. I used to play PnP RPGs for a few years and then people in my group got into LARPing. I saw no point in dressing up as my character so I could never get into this so we went our sepeare ways. I like to think of role playing as a mindset where you try to figure otu what your character would/should do rather than actually pretending to be that character.
An epitaph is a short bit of text honoring a deceased person or thing. What you write on a tombstone. "Death Knell" would be a better phrase here.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Not adding anything meaningful, just loved the mental image of Darth MMO electrocuting players telling them to join the Dark Side.
Balance Over All
Now to add a real point:
Having started in video game RPG's (My first ever was DAoC) and working back to paper (though I still fluctuate between the two), roleplaying is ENTIRELY up to the player in an MMORPG. I'll grant you all that most MMO's these days have made it more of a challenge to enter that mindset, but I still remember playing a Troll (Dark Age, not WoW) Healer and sitting in one of the towns for over 2 hours while a small group of us crafted an elaborate story behind farming the hell out of wolves.
In SWG, I made a Jedi wookie (Yes, I wanted to go woosh woosh while making incoherent growls, ya wanna fight about it?) and stumbled upon a Sith Enclave where I went down the dark side. The player city helped the experience, but that sure as hell wasn't what SOE intended.
I've also had numerous nights sitting in The Blue Recluse in WoW as a Gnome mage trying to pick up night elf druids (no success, to my dismay).
But by far, the most immersive roleplaying I've had in an MMO was LOTRO. I'll agree to high heavens that the PvE progression in the game was less than stellar and it had a shoddy PvP system as well by the time Mines of Moria was out. I probably spent twice as long sitting in The Prancing Pony having all sorts of love affairs, assassination attempts and just straight up foolishness than I ever did out questing.
My point being, by having a willing community, an open/creative imagination and a likable avatar, you can create scenarios and experiences.
TL;DR Roleplaying is possible in almost every MMO, but it's up to you to make it happen.
Balance Over All
I'd argue that the single greatest hallmark of roleplaying is freedom. Freedom to do whatever you want to do within the rules of the game. What I mean by that is you can't just decide your character is going to fly out of the blue, although if you're playing a supers game, that's debatable. In a good roleplaying game, you are limited only by your imagination. If you want to go left, you go left. If you want to go right, you go right. If you want to stop and sit down and not move, you can do that too.
However, in MMOs, you have very little actual freedom in what you do. The game is built around killing things. If you don't kill things, you are at a serious disadvantage in leveling. Most XP is tied up in racking up a body count. If you decide, for instance, to play a Jainist character and refuse to ever kill anything, from the meanest monster to the most innocent dragonfly, how far will you actually progress in the game? Not very far. These games exist for the sake of combat. If you choose to opt out of combat for roleplaying reasons, there's no reason to actually play these games. There's really only one viable path through any MMO out there and that's through combat. It's like pretending you can play Halo by making peace with the Covenant. You just don't get that option.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
People consistently make the mistake of assuming tabletop RPG is the same term as videogame RPG, when it fact both terms have long histories with accumulated expectations. And in the last 25+ years of videogame RPGs, those games haven't been characterized by a huge amount of freedom. They have more freedom than some games, but it's not like you could go anywhere and do anything in Ultima 3 or Sword of Fargoal or Final Fantasy 3 or Dragon Quest or Baldur's Gate or...you get the idea.
There's 25 years worth of RPGs I could name where the overwhelming majority of them have constraints which are basically in line with modern themepark MMORPGs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver