People who don't get that now will get it by the time they hit the level cap in GW2. That doesn't mean there isn't content specifically for level 80, there is, but you still have an entire game's worth of content that remains viable to you, thanks to level scaling. XP and loot are even based on your true level, with only a slight "discount" when content is far below your real level, so playing lower level content still provides tangible rewards.
The entire game is designed to foster cooperative play and destroy the bad, anti-social gaming habits that most MMOs have instilled in the player base. The social aspect will make level scaling even more appealing, as friends and guildmates will be able to play together no matter what their level gap may be and the higher level group mates won't trivialize content for everyone else, nor be forced to sacrifice their own ability to earn XP/loot while playing with lower level friends.
Good guilds will find things to do together, with out having to exclude lower level players. Guilds that play together stay together and players who belong to solid guilds are more likely to stick with a game over the long haul.
GW2 will likely have some of the best retention rates of any MMO since WoW and has a solid chance to repeat WoWs achievement of actually growing the active player base steadily over time. A lack of an "end game gear grind" will cost this game very little and it's alternative to "end game" is likely to retain far more people than the "gear grind end game" has managed to help all the "WoW-like games" retain.
You're talking about poor implementation of power progression, not facts about it.
The genre is still relatively new - and it would have grown a lot more if it wasn't for WoW and its impact.
WoW didn't have scarce content - but it did extend lifetime of the content through the loot design, we can agree on that.
If it didn't - people would have stopped playing it for a long time until the first expansion.
There's no reason you can't scale old content successfully - and most modern themeparks are doing that today. Scaling mechanisms are not hard to implement - it's just a matter of what you intend as a designer.
WoW developers are more interested in providing more and newer content than they are in scaling old content. That's because they have the resources to expand the game significantly without too much of a delay. One might argue that they should scale old content more than they're doing - and it's certainly possible even with their power progression model.
Again, yes, the game is "grindy" if you keep playing it for years. Is that REALLY worse than a game you simply stop playing after a few months? I'm not sure.
We'll see if this content repetition model without power-based rewards is sustainable in the long-term. I really doubt it.
I don't know. Scaling old content seems easier to do than creating brand new content, but I'd imagine the WoW devs are pretty busy with tuning new content on an extraordinarily generous (by industry standards) cycle. But short of us being actually part of dev teams of either game, it's all just discussion and not 'facts', no?
Well then, it really boils down to your motivation to play, doesn't it?
Again, it's not 'worse' or 'better', just different. And the genre desperately needs different.
Obviously there's a market for horizontal progession, otherwise the relative success of GW1 and subsequent development of GW2 would be somewhat inexplicable.
PS. Personally, I think asking for 'years' of gameplay from a $60 game is also somewhat unrealistic.
Obviously there's a market for it. I'm not saying the game won't be worth 60$.
That's because I'm not into the genre because it's value for money. I'm into the genre because it can do things that other genres can't do - and that is to create virtual worlds that you can share with hundreds or thousands of people.
There's nothing inexplicable about the success of GW1 and the inevitable success of GW2 - in monetary terms. People bought it - and that's what ArenaNet needed - not the subscription.
But I honestly have no interest in the monetary success of ArenaNet - that's their business. I'm interested in MMOs that represent an evolution of the genre - and that includes being perpetually interesting for a LONG time.
If the debate is about whether or not GW2 will be successful in terms of sales, then there's no reason for such a debate. I think it will sell at least 1-2 million copies. They also implemented a cash shop - and they seem to be realistic about the economy required to sustain development.
But that has nothing to do with what people would actually prefer from their experience. You can go download Tetris for free and have dozens of hours of fun. Does that mean it's a better game than a singleplayer action game that costs 50$ and lasts 8 hours?
Also, why do you think the shooter genre has evolved like it has. Why are games like Call of Duty and Battlefield about power/loot progression now? Is it because people would just keep playing them for hundreds of hours without that carrot? Or is it because it provides long-term motivation for repeating content?
I guess what the OP means by "End Game" is gear grind treadmill in private instanced dungeons with 10-20 man raiding ... for the information provided ... there is none of that. The game releases with 8 dungeons with 4 modes ... so in total 32 variations of dungeons. where 24 modes of them will be the so called Hard Modes. Again the so called Low Level Dungeon will not be a waste for high level players. As in advantages for a level 80 to go to a level 30 instance are 1. Its still a skill challenge as you are demoted to 30ish. 2. you get gear from the dungeon appropriate to your level and not the mobs level. So even in a lvl 30ish instance will drop lvl 80 gear if you are 80 and if your partner is lets say 50 he gets lvl 50 gear.
Other possible End game are if a big Raid is your choice ... there will big Epic Dragons and such as already shown by Anet in the world. A guild of 15-20 lets say will have to drive the map quest in a particular direction with dynamic events .. like lets say kill mini bosses .. to reach the final boss. This boss will take minimum 10 people to kill with great coordination as there are multiple objectives and stratergies involved like in any high end final bosses of Raids ... though Random people can join your guild to help along not reducing your involment or diminishing you challenge in anyway. This again is Area wide and at every Zone .. higher zones having higher complexity content and not change in difficulty terms. lets say an lvl 20 zone final boss in terms of difficulty will be same as lvl 60 but not in complexity. Again a lvl 20 zone final boss will drop loot appropriate for your lvl and not its lvl ... so you get to improve your characters gear if you 75 while being in a lvl 20 zone.
Controlled enviroments are only provided ( for the information provided) only for 5 man parties. So if you are looking for 10+ raiding private controlled enviroment content ... to the current knowledge there are none.
And then what i would do when i hit 80 other than what i have already mentioned ... there are too many things to do ... map completions .. achievements ... Daily weekly monthly achievements ... Puzzles ... character gear modification (making them look more epic .. by getting awesome skin for gear from varied zones and also Dyes (there are over 300 dyes at launch and you start off with around 18) ... unlocking all support skills through all skill challemges ... gainging skill points and turning them into awesome looking legendaries ... these are some of the things you can do .. and i have just mentioned the PVE part of it.
And then there are shit loads to do in PVP. WvW (nuf said .. all info already available on how endless its Endgame is) .. SPVP ... challenge to reach higher ranks .. get better looking gear for PVP ... Enter tournaments .. join private tournaments .. create tournaments. I cant mention how endless PVP is in "END GAME"
So, basically, you repeat content with a variety of challenge settings for no real reward except aesthetic ones, right?
Exactly like all the other themeparks except for the power progression.
You do it for "fun" instead of the rewards, right? Because all other themeparks are boring because they also provide long-term rewards, right?
Hey I already saw you argue about this on a thread from way back...I thought it cleared up things for you.
Removing power attached to gear makes it less of a requirement for progression. That means I can skip getting the gear if I want to, unlike in most other MMOs where I must have a certain gear rating just to be eligible to a particular dungeon. I run dungeons just so I can "venture" them. I'm only willing to rerun dungeons until I'm satisfied seeing its insides and with a game like this I can do just that. In WoW, I have no other choice but to run Tempest Keep more times than I want to just so I can be eligible for Black Temple.
Yes, you can just go do whatever you want to do.
In WoW, they provide varied content that can sustain interest while you're gearing up for the raids. That's called a horizon.
Do you really think WoW would have been as interesting for as long as it has, if all content could be accessed without any barrier from the beginning? Don't you see the advantage in having things to look forward to, to represent a horizon.
The key is to not make it a grind to gain access - but a fun experience. I don't know about you, but I had a wonderful time in WoW vanilla and TBC - and it didn't feel like a grind.
The reason that's changed is because the game is very old now - and there has been almost no innovation from all the clones.
That doesn't mean the basic design principles were wrong. A game that can sustain ~10 million people for so many years is probably doing something right.
Let's see how many millions are still playing GW2 in 2020, shall we?
Obviously there's a market for it. I'm not saying the game won't be worth 60$.
That's because I'm not into the genre because it's value for money. I'm into the genre because it can do things that other genres can't do - and that is to create virtual worlds that you can share with hundreds or thousands of people.
There's nothing inexplicable about the success of GW1 and the inevitable success of GW2 - in monetary terms. People bought it - and that's what ArenaNet needed - not the subscription.
But I honestly have no interest in the monetary success of ArenaNet - that's their business. I'm interested in MMOs that represent an evolution of the genre - and that includes being perpetually interesting for a LONG time.
If the debate is about whether or not GW2 will be successful in terms of sales, then there's no reason for such a debate. I think it will sell at least 1-2 million copies. They also implemented a cash shop - and they seem to be realistic about the economy required to sustain development.
But that has nothing to do with what people would actually prefer from their experience. You can go download Tetris for free and have dozens of hours of fun. Does that mean it's a better game than a singleplayer action game that costs 50$ and lasts 8 hours?
Also, why do you think the shooter genre has evolved like it has. Why are games like Call of Duty and Battlefield about power/loot progression now? Is it because people would just keep playing them for hundreds of hours without that carrot? Or is it because it provides long-term motivation for repeating content?
What would you suggest then, to evolve the MMO genre, if not by doing something different, like a new reward paradigm?
We have already seen a number of stumbling MMOs that have the very same power progression model that you seem to hold dearly. Do we really need another?
Maybe players are ready for a different carrot to play, other than the infinte hamster wheel of gear and power?
I'm not sure CoD and BF are good examples for furthering your argument for power reward systems; they've certainly been derided as the poster children of what is wrong with the industry by more discerning consumers.
You're talking about poor implementation of power progression, not facts about it.
The genre is still relatively new - and it would have grown a lot more if it wasn't for WoW and its impact.
WoW didn't have scarce content - but it did extend lifetime of the content through the loot design, we can agree on that.
If it didn't - people would have stopped playing it for a long time until the first expansion.
There's no reason you can't scale old content successfully - and most modern themeparks are doing that today. Scaling mechanisms are not hard to implement - it's just a matter of what you intend as a designer.
WoW developers are more interested in providing more and newer content than they are in scaling old content. That's because they have the resources to expand the game significantly without too much of a delay. One might argue that they should scale old content more than they're doing - and it's certainly possible even with their power progression model.
Again, yes, the game is "grindy" if you keep playing it for years. Is that REALLY worse than a game you simply stop playing after a few months? I'm not sure.
We'll see if this content repetition model without power-based rewards is sustainable in the long-term. I really doubt it.
I don't know. Scaling old content seems easier to do than creating brand new content, but I'd imagine the WoW devs are pretty busy with tuning new content on an extraordinarily generous (by industry standards) cycle. But short of us being actually part of dev teams of either game, it's all just discussion and not 'facts', no?
Well then, it really boils down to your motivation to play, doesn't it?
Again, it's not 'worse' or 'better', just different. And the genre desperately needs different.
Obviously there's a market for horizontal progession, otherwise the relative success of GW1 and subsequent development of GW2 would be somewhat inexplicable.
PS. Personally, I think asking for 'years' of gameplay from a $60 game is also somewhat unrealistic.
Obviously there's a market for it. I'm not saying the game won't be worth 60$.
That's because I'm not into the genre because it's value for money. I'm into the genre because it can do things that other genres can't do - and that is to create virtual worlds that you can share with hundreds or thousands of people.
There's nothing inexplicable about the success of GW1 and the inevitable success of GW2 - in monetary terms. People bought it - and that's what ArenaNet needed - not the subscription.
But I honestly have no interest in the monetary success of ArenaNet - that's their business. I'm interested in MMOs that represent an evolution of the genre - and that includes being perpetually interesting for a LONG time.
If the debate is about whether or not GW2 will be successful in terms of sales, then there's no reason for such a debate. I think it will sell at least 1-2 million copies. They also implemented a cash shop - and they seem to be realistic about the economy required to sustain development.
But that has nothing to do with what people would actually prefer from their experience. You can go download Tetris for free and have dozens of hours of fun. Does that mean it's a better game than a singleplayer action game that costs 50$ and lasts 8 hours?
Also, why do you think the shooter genre has evolved like it has. Why are games like Call of Duty and Battlefield about power/loot progression now? Is it because people would just keep playing them for hundreds of hours without that carrot? Or is it because it provides long-term motivation for repeating content?
Where have shooters genre evolved ? it is still about Aim and shoot ... people play CoD and battlefield for hours cause it has gear progression ? i am really sorry but thats not the case .. poeple still play hours on end of CS1.6 which has still no gear progression ... FPS - PVP games work on game mechanics not on gear progression ... people play hours on end of DOTA LoL and such MOBA PVP games which has no gear progression and its down to game mechanics ... and if anything LoL and DOTA2 has shown other than better mechanics of games win & is that aesthetics count ... Riot made money of LoL on Pure Aesthetics and now so is DOTA 2. PVP game genre replayability has nothing to do with progression other than it helps a little in matchmaking it has all to do with game mechanics. Shoot and Aim is a game mechanic, controlling One hero Char with moves is a game mechanic.
Obviously there's a market for it. I'm not saying the game won't be worth 60$.
That's because I'm not into the genre because it's value for money. I'm into the genre because it can do things that other genres can't do - and that is to create virtual worlds that you can share with hundreds or thousands of people.
There's nothing inexplicable about the success of GW1 and the inevitable success of GW2 - in monetary terms. People bought it - and that's what ArenaNet needed - not the subscription.
But I honestly have no interest in the monetary success of ArenaNet - that's their business. I'm interested in MMOs that represent an evolution of the genre - and that includes being perpetually interesting for a LONG time.
If the debate is about whether or not GW2 will be successful in terms of sales, then there's no reason for such a debate. I think it will sell at least 1-2 million copies. They also implemented a cash shop - and they seem to be realistic about the economy required to sustain development.
But that has nothing to do with what people would actually prefer from their experience. You can go download Tetris for free and have dozens of hours of fun. Does that mean it's a better game than a singleplayer action game that costs 50$ and lasts 8 hours?
Also, why do you think the shooter genre has evolved like it has. Why are games like Call of Duty and Battlefield about power/loot progression now? Is it because people would just keep playing them for hundreds of hours without that carrot? Or is it because it provides long-term motivation for repeating content?
What would you suggest then, to evolve the MMO genre, if not by doing something different, like a new reward paradigm?
We have already seen a number of stumbling MMOs that have the very same power progression model that you seem to hold dearly. Do we really need another?
Maybe players are ready for a different carrot to play, other than the infinte hamster wheel of gear and power?
I'm not sure CoD and BF are good examples for furthering your argument for power reward systems; they've certainly been derided as the poster children of what is wrong with the industry by more discerning consumers.
Yes, I want a very different reward paradigm. But I also want the rewards.
First of all, I want the rewards to be about skill and NOTHING but skill. I also want solo players that are incredibly good at what they do to have access to the same level of rewards that super coordinated and talented groups have access to.
But I don't want a hollow tier system of ever increasing power. That's stupid.
I want 90-95% of all itemization to be about crafting - and I want crafting to be as challenging as PvE content. The only game that even attempted something like this is Vanguard (AFAIK) - where crafting required actual skill.
But I want legendary items to be extremely (EXTREMELY) rare - and I want them to be 100% unique. As in, only one of each kind in the entire playsplace. Then I want such an item to be accessible only through extreme skill on the side of the player - and something that only the very best players could ever dream of getting access to.
Which means that 90% of the population WOULD actually have the same level of items - because they can buy them from crafters, and it doesn't necessarily mean endless grinding.
But then again, I'm a sandbox player at heart - and I want all items tradable - even the most powerful ones. So, being a merchant would be just as viable and powerful as being a powerful PvP/PvE player.
The only game on the horizon that seems to touch upon this kind of thing is ArcheAge - but I don't know enough about the details.
The key, most definitely, is to give the power of creation to the players.
EvE Online is the only current example of a really successful game that's doing this kind of thing. The only problem being that the actual gameplay is stale and it feels more like an economy simulator than a game.
I want the best parts of the immersive themeparks merged with the best parts of the freeform sandboxes. For that, we need a huge budget and true creative vision.
They think it's brilliant to give you pretty much everything from the get-go - and they rely on their content being varied and fun enough that you'll just do the content over and over again, without a carrot. Then again, you can just stop when you're bored - and there's no subscription. So, it's not a big deal - I suppose.
Unless, of course, you're one of those weird and sick people who like goals and an expanding horizon in your MMO genre. Obviously, in that case, GW2 isn't for you - if you believe the fans
Those same fans who used to love goals and an expanding horizon - but for some reason seem to really hate it now
It couldn't be that they're just sick of WoW being remade constantly - and it couldn't be that the original WoW design (based on EQ/DikuMUD if you insist) was actually pretty strong. It's just that you can only play the same game dressed up slightly differently for so long. But that doesn't mean the formula or power progression is necessarily evil and horrible - does it? I mean, even in singleplayer RPGs you have vertical progression to motivate play.
GW2 does what it can to minimise that drive - and I'm really curious to see if people are going to really love it as much as they say.
Or maybe it's the fact that SOME PEOPLE ARE JUST SICK AND TIRED OF DEALING WITH A MINDLESS GEAR GRIND THAT SUPPOSEDLY MAKES US FEEL STRONG, BUT THEN STRIPS AWAY THAT STRENGTH ONE PATCH LATER AND WE END UP HAVING TO GRIND ALL OVER AGAIN.
Oh, I fully agree with you. I hate that design with the hollow tier upgrade grind.
But I don't see how taking it away will make the actual content last longer or be more fun.
Wow. thank god you are not a developer DKlord. You would make an mmo with exactly the same game mechanics and content as the other 1000 games and hope your copy and paste gear grind brings in the bucks?
I am all for a discussion about how mmos can improve but what you suggesting is there is no point trying to take away the carrot and make a game that is fun to be played instead. To answer your statement:
'But I don't see how taking it away will make the actual content last longer or be more fun.'
Because you change said content until you create something that IS fun and lasts longer without a big shiny carrot being dangled on your nose.
I am not saying GW2 is the end all solution but if you truly agree that the tier upgrade grind is been done to death and needs to die then you have to start supporting the games that try to break this genre destroying feature.
pessimistic statements like yours with no real attempt to offer a solution to the problem bring nothing to this forum and serve to create troll and troll haters (not say your a troll but your creating an enviroment where they flourish). They love badly worded, non backed up sweeping statements about the genre or entire games, its easy prey.
edit: Posted this before i read your post above this, I take back the bit about no information or solution to the problem.
If you continue to make sweeping statements like you know what everyone everywhere thinks about a certain topic then I am going to shout at you. It easy to type 'I think this is the worst game ever' Rather than the 'This is the worst game ever'
In WoW, they provide varied content that can sustain interest while you're gearing up for the raids. That's called a horizon.
Do you really think WoW would have been as interesting for as long as it has, if all content could be accessed without any barrier from the beginning? Don't you see the advantage in having things to look forward to, to represent a horizon.
The key is to not make it a grind to gain access - but a fun experience. I don't know about you, but I had a wonderful time in WoW vanilla and TBC - and it didn't feel like a grind.
The reason that's changed is because the game is very old now - and there has been almost no innovation from all the clones.
That doesn't mean the basic design principles were wrong. A game that can sustain ~10 million people for so many years is probably doing something right.
Let's see how many millions are still playing GW2 in 2020, shall we?
I don't know. It seems that you want evolution, but you also want GW2 to be more like WoW. I think that there's already a crowded room of those already.
Why should the continued success of GW2 in 2020 be of concern to any of us? In fact I think most of us would have happily moved on with our lives and be playing other games already.
I think this may be your fundamental mistake: it's GW2, not WoW 2.
I guess what the OP means by "End Game" is gear grind treadmill in private instanced dungeons with 10-20 man raiding ... for the information provided ... there is none of that. The game releases with 8 dungeons with 4 modes ... so in total 32 variations of dungeons. where 24 modes of them will be the so called Hard Modes. Again the so called Low Level Dungeon will not be a waste for high level players. As in advantages for a level 80 to go to a level 30 instance are 1. Its still a skill challenge as you are demoted to 30ish. 2. you get gear from the dungeon appropriate to your level and not the mobs level. So even in a lvl 30ish instance will drop lvl 80 gear if you are 80 and if your partner is lets say 50 he gets lvl 50 gear.
Other possible End game are if a big Raid is your choice ... there will big Epic Dragons and such as already shown by Anet in the world. A guild of 15-20 lets say will have to drive the map quest in a particular direction with dynamic events .. like lets say kill mini bosses .. to reach the final boss. This boss will take minimum 10 people to kill with great coordination as there are multiple objectives and stratergies involved like in any high end final bosses of Raids ... though Random people can join your guild to help along not reducing your involment or diminishing you challenge in anyway. This again is Area wide and at every Zone .. higher zones having higher complexity content and not change in difficulty terms. lets say an lvl 20 zone final boss in terms of difficulty will be same as lvl 60 but not in complexity. Again a lvl 20 zone final boss will drop loot appropriate for your lvl and not its lvl ... so you get to improve your characters gear if you 75 while being in a lvl 20 zone.
Controlled enviroments are only provided ( for the information provided) only for 5 man parties. So if you are looking for 10+ raiding private controlled enviroment content ... to the current knowledge there are none.
And then what i would do when i hit 80 other than what i have already mentioned ... there are too many things to do ... map completions .. achievements ... Daily weekly monthly achievements ... Puzzles ... character gear modification (making them look more epic .. by getting awesome skin for gear from varied zones and also Dyes (there are over 300 dyes at launch and you start off with around 18) ... unlocking all support skills through all skill challemges ... gainging skill points and turning them into awesome looking legendaries ... these are some of the things you can do .. and i have just mentioned the PVE part of it.
And then there are shit loads to do in PVP. WvW (nuf said .. all info already available on how endless its Endgame is) .. SPVP ... challenge to reach higher ranks .. get better looking gear for PVP ... Enter tournaments .. join private tournaments .. create tournaments. I cant mention how endless PVP is in "END GAME"
So, basically, you repeat content with a variety of challenge settings for no real reward except aesthetic ones, right?
Exactly like all the other themeparks except for the power progression.
You do it for "fun" instead of the rewards, right? Because all other themeparks are boring because they also provide long-term rewards, right?
Hey I already saw you argue about this on a thread from way back...I thought it cleared up things for you.
Removing power attached to gear makes it less of a requirement for progression. That means I can skip getting the gear if I want to, unlike in most other MMOs where I must have a certain gear rating just to be eligible to a particular dungeon. I run dungeons just so I can "venture" them. I'm only willing to rerun dungeons until I'm satisfied seeing its insides and with a game like this I can do just that. In WoW, I have no other choice but to run Tempest Keep more times than I want to just so I can be eligible for Black Temple.
Yes, you can just go do whatever you want to do.
In WoW, they provide varied content that can sustain interest while you're gearing up for the raids. That's called a horizon.
Do you really think WoW would have been as interesting for as long as it has, if all content could be accessed without any barrier from the beginning? Don't you see the advantage in having things to look forward to, to represent a horizon.
The key is to not make it a grind to gain access - but a fun experience. I don't know about you, but I had a wonderful time in WoW vanilla and TBC - and it didn't feel like a grind.
The reason that's changed is because the game is very old now - and there has been almost no innovation from all the clones.
That doesn't mean the basic design principles were wrong. A game that can sustain ~10 million people for so many years is probably doing something right.
Let's see how many millions are still playing GW2 in 2020, shall we?
In games like WoW, theres always conten you find to be true shit (personal opinions), before you get to the fun content.
In WoW, they provide varied content that can sustain interest while you're gearing up for the raids. That's called a horizon.
Do you really think WoW would have been as interesting for as long as it has, if all content could be accessed without any barrier from the beginning? Don't you see the advantage in having things to look forward to, to represent a horizon.
The key is to not make it a grind to gain access - but a fun experience. I don't know about you, but I had a wonderful time in WoW vanilla and TBC - and it didn't feel like a grind.
The reason that's changed is because the game is very old now - and there has been almost no innovation from all the clones.
That doesn't mean the basic design principles were wrong. A game that can sustain ~10 million people for so many years is probably doing something right.
Let's see how many millions are still playing GW2 in 2020, shall we?
I don't know. It seems that you want evolution, but you also want GW2 to be more like WoW. I think that there's already a crowded room of those already.
Why should the continued success of GW2 in 2020 be of concern to any of us? In fact I think most of us would have happily moved on with our lives and be playing other games already.
I think this may be your fundamental mistake: it's GW2, not WoW 2.
No, I don't want it to be like WoW - I'm done with that model.
I'm simply saying the power progression is a universal part of ALL RPGs - and it has been since the 70s. That's very much an integral part of the experience.
Once you reach 80 - a lot of people will have to REALLY enjoy doing the content - or they'll be missing that vital ingredient.
So, I WANT power progression - just not like it has been done in WoW and so many other games. That design is dead now.
In WoW, they provide varied content that can sustain interest while you're gearing up for the raids. That's called a horizon.
Do you really think WoW would have been as interesting for as long as it has, if all content could be accessed without any barrier from the beginning? Don't you see the advantage in having things to look forward to, to represent a horizon.
The key is to not make it a grind to gain access - but a fun experience. I don't know about you, but I had a wonderful time in WoW vanilla and TBC - and it didn't feel like a grind.
The reason that's changed is because the game is very old now - and there has been almost no innovation from all the clones.
That doesn't mean the basic design principles were wrong. A game that can sustain ~10 million people for so many years is probably doing something right.
Let's see how many millions are still playing GW2 in 2020, shall we?
Vanila and TBC felt grind-less because the game was new and shinny. After so many years and countless wow-clones people are tired of that kind of progression.
I've played WoW for many years in the past but now Im not even thinking of going back. Why? Because even if I wanted to participate to its all famous "endgame" (which btw hasnt been udated for 9 months now) I'd have to grind the old heroic dungeons again before being able to join the new Raids.
PvP is even worse. Trying to start PvP without pvp gear is not fun at all.
In GW2 you can pvp from the start. There are no gear imbalances. Sure some people may customize their gear (through sigils) better than others but the options are there for all.
And in PvE, there are still hard challenges but the way to overcome them is not getting better gear. You may try to customize your character or gear better, try different weapon setups, find people you can synergize with and even try to play better yourself ! I wont say that GW2 is the definition of a skill based game but it requires more skill than gear based, trinity system games.
Finally, dont underestimate the power of cosmetic items that are the "endgame hunt" in GW2 both in PvE and PvP!
People are trying to do the craziest achievements in older games only to gain cosmetic items or even pay real money for them in cash shops (like mounts and pets from the WoW store).
Yes, I want a very different reward paradigm. But I also want the rewards.
First of all, I want the rewards to be about skill and NOTHING but skill. I also want solo players that are incredibly good at what they do to have access to the same level of rewards that super coordinated and talented groups have access to.
But I don't want a hollow tier system of ever increasing power. That's stupid.
I want 90-95% of all itemization to be about crafting - and I want crafting to be as challenging as PvE content. The only game that even attempted something like this is Vanguard (AFAIK) - where crafting required actual skill.
But I want legendary items to be extremely (EXTREMELY) rare - and I want them to be 100% unique. As in, only one of each kind in the entire playsplace. Then I want such an item to be accessible only through extreme skill on the side of the player - and something that only the very best players could ever dream of getting access to.
Which means that 90% of the population WOULD actually have the same level of items - because they can buy them from crafters, and it doesn't necessarily mean endless grinding.
But then again, I'm a sandbox player at heart - and I want all items tradable - even the most powerful ones. So, being a merchant would be just as viable and powerful as being a powerful PvP/PvE player.
The only game on the horizon that seems to touch upon this kind of thing is ArcheAge - but I don't know enough about the details.
The key, most definitely, is to give the power of creation to the players.
EvE Online is the only current example of a really successful game that's doing this kind of thing. The only problem being that the actual gameplay is stale and it feels more like an economy simulator than a game.
I want the best parts of the immersive themeparks merged with the best parts of the freeform sandboxes. For that, we need a huge budget and true creative vision.
It sounds to me like you want a lifestyle choice, not a $60 game.
They think it's brilliant to give you pretty much everything from the get-go - and they rely on their content being varied and fun enough that you'll just do the content over and over again, without a carrot. Then again, you can just stop when you're bored - and there's no subscription. So, it's not a big deal - I suppose.
Unless, of course, you're one of those weird and sick people who like goals and an expanding horizon in your MMO genre. Obviously, in that case, GW2 isn't for you - if you believe the fans
Those same fans who used to love goals and an expanding horizon - but for some reason seem to really hate it now
It couldn't be that they're just sick of WoW being remade constantly - and it couldn't be that the original WoW design (based on EQ/DikuMUD if you insist) was actually pretty strong. It's just that you can only play the same game dressed up slightly differently for so long. But that doesn't mean the formula or power progression is necessarily evil and horrible - does it? I mean, even in singleplayer RPGs you have vertical progression to motivate play.
GW2 does what it can to minimise that drive - and I'm really curious to see if people are going to really love it as much as they say.
Or maybe it's the fact that SOME PEOPLE ARE JUST SICK AND TIRED OF DEALING WITH A MINDLESS GEAR GRIND THAT SUPPOSEDLY MAKES US FEEL STRONG, BUT THEN STRIPS AWAY THAT STRENGTH ONE PATCH LATER AND WE END UP HAVING TO GRIND ALL OVER AGAIN.
Oh, I fully agree with you. I hate that design with the hollow tier upgrade grind.
But I don't see how taking it away will make the actual content last longer or be more fun.
Wow. thank god you are not a developer DKlord. You would make an mmo with exactly the same game mechanics and content as the other 1000 games and hope your copy and paste gear grind brings in the bucks?
I am all for a discussion about how mmos can improve but what you suggesting is there is no point trying to take away the carrot and make a game that is fun to be played instead. To answer your statement:
'But I don't see how taking it away will make the actual content last longer or be more fun.'
Because you change said content until you create something that IS fun and lasts longer without a big shiny carrot being dangled on your nose.
I am not saying GW2 is the end all solution but if you truly agree that the tier upgrade grind is been done to death and needs to die then you have to start supporting the games that try to break this genre destroying feature.
pessimistic statements like yours with no real attempt to offer a solution to the problem bring nothing to this forum and serve to create troll and troll haters (not say your a troll but your creating an enviroment where they flourish). They love badly worded, non backed up sweeping statements about the genre or entire games, its easy prey.
edit: Posted this before i read your post above this, I take back the bit about no information or solution to the problem.
Nice strawman.
As if GW2 is the only fun MMO that has ever been. WoW vanilla was really boring, right? It was a terrible game that forced people to play through the evil loot treadmill that kept them locked down with their keyboards.
This whole B2P = better content is not logical.
With a subscription based game, you're expecting people to keep playing - so you're even MORE obligated to keep the content as fun as possible. Yes, you have to provide long-term motivation - but you DO NOT provide that by making the actual content boring.
WoW and other quality themeparks have fantastic and fun content - it just can't last forever, even with variety.
That's why we need something fresh. GW2 is fresh enough - but it doesn't have the carrot (really) after level 80.
Yes, I want a very different reward paradigm. But I also want the rewards.
First of all, I want the rewards to be about skill and NOTHING but skill. I also want solo players that are incredibly good at what they do to have access to the same level of rewards that super coordinated and talented groups have access to.
But I don't want a hollow tier system of ever increasing power. That's stupid.
I want 90-95% of all itemization to be about crafting - and I want crafting to be as challenging as PvE content. The only game that even attempted something like this is Vanguard (AFAIK) - where crafting required actual skill.
But I want legendary items to be extremely (EXTREMELY) rare - and I want them to be 100% unique. As in, only one of each kind in the entire playsplace. Then I want such an item to be accessible only through extreme skill on the side of the player - and something that only the very best players could ever dream of getting access to.
Which means that 90% of the population WOULD actually have the same level of items - because they can buy them from crafters, and it doesn't necessarily mean endless grinding.
But then again, I'm a sandbox player at heart - and I want all items tradable - even the most powerful ones. So, being a merchant would be just as viable and powerful as being a powerful PvP/PvE player.
The only game on the horizon that seems to touch upon this kind of thing is ArcheAge - but I don't know enough about the details.
The key, most definitely, is to give the power of creation to the players.
EvE Online is the only current example of a really successful game that's doing this kind of thing. The only problem being that the actual gameplay is stale and it feels more like an economy simulator than a game.
I want the best parts of the immersive themeparks merged with the best parts of the freeform sandboxes. For that, we need a huge budget and true creative vision.
It sounds to me like you want a lifestyle choice, not a $60 game.
That's why the only way to provide a fully satisfying long-term MMO experience is to give content-creation to the players. GW2 doesn't do that.
You're totally making this up.
There's no proof for this, this is just your pet theory. It's nice you like that kind of thing, but don't try pushing your agenda by creating an imaginary sandbox MMORPG that has managed to boundlessly hold most people's attention.
That's why the only way to provide a fully satisfying long-term MMO experience is to give content-creation to the players. GW2 doesn't do that.
You're totally making this up.
There's no proof for this, this is just your pet theory. It's nice you like that kind of thing, but don't try pushing your agenda by creating an imaginary sandbox MMORPG that has managed to boundlessly hold most people's attention.
I'm not making my opinion up, no. It's something that's formed as I've accumulated experience and applied thought and reason to it.
I'll speak it whenever I feel it's relevant - and I'm afraid you don't really get to change that.
Originally posted by pratikrath86 I guess what the OP means by "End Game" is gear grind treadmill in private instanced dungeons with 10-20 man raiding ... for the information provided ... there is none of that. The game releases with 8 dungeons with 4 modes ... so in total 32 variations of dungeons. where 24 modes of them will be the so called Hard Modes. Again the so called Low Level Dungeon will not be a waste for high level players. As in advantages for a level 80 to go to a level 30 instance are 1. Its still a skill challenge as you are demoted to 30ish. 2. you get gear from the dungeon appropriate to your level and not the mobs level. So even in a lvl 30ish instance will drop lvl 80 gear if you are 80 and if your partner is lets say 50 he gets lvl 50 gear. Other possible End game are if a big Raid is your choice ... there will big Epic Dragons and such as already shown by Anet in the world. A guild of 15-20 lets say will have to drive the map quest in a particular direction with dynamic events .. like lets say kill mini bosses .. to reach the final boss. This boss will take minimum 10 people to kill with great coordination as there are multiple objectives and stratergies involved like in any high end final bosses of Raids ... though Random people can join your guild to help along not reducing your involment or diminishing you challenge in anyway. This again is Area wide and at every Zone .. higher zones having higher complexity content and not change in difficulty terms. lets say an lvl 20 zone final boss in terms of difficulty will be same as lvl 60 but not in complexity. Again a lvl 20 zone final boss will drop loot appropriate for your lvl and not its lvl ... so you get to improve your characters gear if you 75 while being in a lvl 20 zone.Controlled enviroments are only provided ( for the information provided) only for 5 man parties. So if you are looking for 10+ raiding private controlled enviroment content ... to the current knowledge there are none.And then what i would do when i hit 80 other than what i have already mentioned ... there are too many things to do ... map completions .. achievements ... Daily weekly monthly achievements ... Puzzles ... character gear modification (making them look more epic .. by getting awesome skin for gear from varied zones and also Dyes (there are over 300 dyes at launch and you start off with around 18) ... unlocking all support skills through all skill challemges ... gainging skill points and turning them into awesome looking legendaries ... these are some of the things you can do .. and i have just mentioned the PVE part of it.And then there are shit loads to do in PVP. WvW (nuf said .. all info already available on how endless its Endgame is) .. SPVP ... challenge to reach higher ranks .. get better looking gear for PVP ... Enter tournaments .. join private tournaments .. create tournaments. I cant mention how endless PVP is in "END GAME"
So, basically, you repeat content with a variety of challenge settings for no real reward except aesthetic ones, right?
Exactly like all the other themeparks except for the power progression.
You do it for "fun" instead of the rewards, right? Because all other themeparks are boring because they also provide long-term rewards, right?
you just don't get it. It's not about not liking repeating content or disliking raids, it's about being forced to do so to continue doing new content. Once I've done a raid, I don't want to be prevented from doing another one because I didn't get a drop.
I understand the need to make player developed content as a part of the solution , but it is easier said than done. Lets be honest how many ever ideas we can come up with as gamers/players, developers have 10 times better ideas in their head as lets face it their livelyhood depends on it. But having a great idea where i want this that , this should be possible and also this, but should also not have that its all and nothing but an IDEA. Game development doesnt work on what and how it should be and but what we can do best with what we have. I am sure a RL Matrix Game where i am in a virtual world and can feel and run and fly and fight would be for sure a WOW killer .. but is it really possible ? No dev team can satisfy a game which has 1 million ways in which a said thing should be done from a base player of 1 million, its just not possible. What is important is we want Devs to try different things in realm of possiblity. Like GW2 its still kill 10 find 5 of X and escort this to that .. but done differently. What is important is different approaches so we can have different experiences of the same thing. Game takes a leap not on IDeas but on tech .. i am sure people who made Ping Pong in the early 70's or 80's when ever that was had an idea to make a MMORPG like todays but they made a game that was possible then. MMORPG genre as most are hoping is not moving forward cause of lack of ideas but slowly moving ahead with new approaches like GW2 .. but will take a leap only when tech allows for some thing revolutionary.
There's a place for sandbox and there's a place for themepark. Neither is better.
Personally there's just no chance I'd be playing Eve or AA when it comes out. It's not that either are bad, on the contrary I think they're fantastic and I love reading news of what's happening in Eve. But mining asteriods, running stations or playing the market just isn't for me, I have neither the time nor freedom to devote that much attention.
Can people at least respect that some like me like themepark and can find enjoyment in just the simple fact of logging in and trying out different new clothes?
I'm not making my opinion up, no. It's something that's formed as I've accumulated experience and applied thought and reason to it.
I'll speak it whenever I feel it's relevant - and I'm afraid you don't really get to change that.
Right, but it's merely an opinion. It's not even an opinion that has a RL example to point to. It's a fantasy you've evolved inside your head because you wish games were a certain way (That they're mostly not).
You have this wonderful idea in your head, and that's great, but there's no physical analog to what you're talking about.
The difference between people saying GW2 endgame is great, and you saying your idea for endgame is great...
... is at least the GW2 people will find out if they're right or wrong in a few months.
You're lucky, almost invariably the sandbox games are shitty and poorly done or extremely niche, so you have a thousand excuses other than 'well, guess my end game model is bad too' to point to.
In MY opinion, there isn't any game that can hold me through 'endgame'. I might be proven wrong some day, but until then, I definitely approve of the B2P model over the P2P model where I usually find myself paying even after I've actually lost interest in the game. The idea of trying to create a game with mythically boundless content for all is pretty silly.
edit: Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound in my previous message that you're not allowed to hold baseless opinions! Feel free! I personally like my opinions to have a little fact behind them, but hey, whatever works.
There's a place for sandbox and there's a place for themepark. Neither is better.
Personally there's just no chance I'd be playing Eve or AA when it comes out. It's not that either are bad, on the contrary I think they're fantastic and I love reading news of what's happening in Eve. But mining asteriods, running stations or playing the market just isn't for me, I have neither the time nor freedom to devote that much attention.
Can people at least respect that some like me like themepark and can find enjoyment in just the simple fact of logging in and trying out different new clothes?
i would totally agree with you ... in my opinion iwould go a step further and say almost no game is bad ... everyone is not supposed to like everything ... just cause you like or dont like some thing doesnt make it good or bad. Again to each to their own.
Hence i dont mind people saying i didnt like this or i liked that .. what annoys me is that when people say this is wrong and this way is right , this is Good and this is bad.
In MY opinion, there isn't any game that can hold me through 'endgame'. I might be proven wrong some day, but until then, I definitely approve of the B2P model over the P2P model where I usually find myself paying even after I've actually lost interest in the game. The idea of trying to create a game with mythically boundless content for all is pretty silly.
i'm in the same boat.. ultima online, swg, wow, rift, swtor, conan, eve online..
theres never been a game aside from city of heroes that held me for more than 3 or 4 months... and to this day i have no clue why i played city of heroes for a whole year. not to divert the topic, i'm really interested in whether GW2 will do something crazy like COH did for me.
at least they're trying something somewhat different. i can't just look at it like i did most other games and say "well thats gonna be a fun month." not that theres anything wrong with a fun month in my book.
on a side note.. its always wise to state your opinions as such, like Meow did here. rather than making absolute statements and presenting your opinions as you would present a factual statement! then there is no reason for anyone to correct them and no reason to get upset when they do!
I'm not making my opinion up, no. It's something that's formed as I've accumulated experience and applied thought and reason to it.
I'll speak it whenever I feel it's relevant - and I'm afraid you don't really get to change that.
Right, but it's merely an opinion. It's not even an opinion that has a RL example to point to. It's a fantasy you've evolved inside your head because you wish games were a certain way (That they're mostly not).
You have this wonderful idea in your head, and that's great, but there's no physical analog to what you're talking about.
The difference between people saying GW2 endgame is great, and you saying your idea for endgame is great...
... is at least the GW2 people will find out if they're right or wrong in a few months.
You're lucky, almost invariably the sandbox games are shitty and poorly done or extremely niche, so you have a thousand excuses other than 'well, guess my end game model is bad too' to point to.
In MY opinion, there isn't any game that can hold me through 'endgame'. I might be proven wrong some day, but until then, I definitely approve of the B2P model over the P2P model where I usually find myself paying even after I've actually lost interest in the game. The idea of trying to create a game with mythically boundless content for all is pretty silly.
edit: Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound in my previous message that you're not allowed to hold baseless opinions! Feel free! I personally like my opinions to have a little fact behind them, but hey, whatever works.
I'm not really sure what your point is in all of this.
It's not a competition for me about who's right or who's wrong.
I don't consider myself lucky that sandboxes tend to be really poorly executed - because if they weren't, I'd probably play some of them more than I have.
You're free to approve of anything you like based on anything you like. That's on you.
In my opinion, having dreams and concepts in your head about how to evolve the genre is not bad or harmful - and it's very relevant when talking about concepts you don't personally agree with.
It's not about providing evidence or manipulating people into agreeing with me. It's about providing arguments that people can respond to or reflect upon. Maybe they agree, maybe they don't - and that's really what exchanging ideas and thoughts are all about.
Also, you don't have to apologize for having a problem with my opinion. It's really of no concern to me.
Comments
"The entire game is end game"!
People who don't get that now will get it by the time they hit the level cap in GW2. That doesn't mean there isn't content specifically for level 80, there is, but you still have an entire game's worth of content that remains viable to you, thanks to level scaling. XP and loot are even based on your true level, with only a slight "discount" when content is far below your real level, so playing lower level content still provides tangible rewards.
The entire game is designed to foster cooperative play and destroy the bad, anti-social gaming habits that most MMOs have instilled in the player base. The social aspect will make level scaling even more appealing, as friends and guildmates will be able to play together no matter what their level gap may be and the higher level group mates won't trivialize content for everyone else, nor be forced to sacrifice their own ability to earn XP/loot while playing with lower level friends.
Good guilds will find things to do together, with out having to exclude lower level players. Guilds that play together stay together and players who belong to solid guilds are more likely to stick with a game over the long haul.
GW2 will likely have some of the best retention rates of any MMO since WoW and has a solid chance to repeat WoWs achievement of actually growing the active player base steadily over time. A lack of an "end game gear grind" will cost this game very little and it's alternative to "end game" is likely to retain far more people than the "gear grind end game" has managed to help all the "WoW-like games" retain.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Obviously there's a market for it. I'm not saying the game won't be worth 60$.
That's because I'm not into the genre because it's value for money. I'm into the genre because it can do things that other genres can't do - and that is to create virtual worlds that you can share with hundreds or thousands of people.
There's nothing inexplicable about the success of GW1 and the inevitable success of GW2 - in monetary terms. People bought it - and that's what ArenaNet needed - not the subscription.
But I honestly have no interest in the monetary success of ArenaNet - that's their business. I'm interested in MMOs that represent an evolution of the genre - and that includes being perpetually interesting for a LONG time.
If the debate is about whether or not GW2 will be successful in terms of sales, then there's no reason for such a debate. I think it will sell at least 1-2 million copies. They also implemented a cash shop - and they seem to be realistic about the economy required to sustain development.
But that has nothing to do with what people would actually prefer from their experience. You can go download Tetris for free and have dozens of hours of fun. Does that mean it's a better game than a singleplayer action game that costs 50$ and lasts 8 hours?
Also, why do you think the shooter genre has evolved like it has. Why are games like Call of Duty and Battlefield about power/loot progression now? Is it because people would just keep playing them for hundreds of hours without that carrot? Or is it because it provides long-term motivation for repeating content?
Yes, you can just go do whatever you want to do.
In WoW, they provide varied content that can sustain interest while you're gearing up for the raids. That's called a horizon.
Do you really think WoW would have been as interesting for as long as it has, if all content could be accessed without any barrier from the beginning? Don't you see the advantage in having things to look forward to, to represent a horizon.
The key is to not make it a grind to gain access - but a fun experience. I don't know about you, but I had a wonderful time in WoW vanilla and TBC - and it didn't feel like a grind.
The reason that's changed is because the game is very old now - and there has been almost no innovation from all the clones.
That doesn't mean the basic design principles were wrong. A game that can sustain ~10 million people for so many years is probably doing something right.
Let's see how many millions are still playing GW2 in 2020, shall we?
What would you suggest then, to evolve the MMO genre, if not by doing something different, like a new reward paradigm?
We have already seen a number of stumbling MMOs that have the very same power progression model that you seem to hold dearly. Do we really need another?
Maybe players are ready for a different carrot to play, other than the infinte hamster wheel of gear and power?
I'm not sure CoD and BF are good examples for furthering your argument for power reward systems; they've certainly been derided as the poster children of what is wrong with the industry by more discerning consumers.
Where have shooters genre evolved ? it is still about Aim and shoot ... people play CoD and battlefield for hours cause it has gear progression ? i am really sorry but thats not the case .. poeple still play hours on end of CS1.6 which has still no gear progression ... FPS - PVP games work on game mechanics not on gear progression ... people play hours on end of DOTA LoL and such MOBA PVP games which has no gear progression and its down to game mechanics ... and if anything LoL and DOTA2 has shown other than better mechanics of games win & is that aesthetics count ... Riot made money of LoL on Pure Aesthetics and now so is DOTA 2. PVP game genre replayability has nothing to do with progression other than it helps a little in matchmaking it has all to do with game mechanics. Shoot and Aim is a game mechanic, controlling One hero Char with moves is a game mechanic.
Yes, I want a very different reward paradigm. But I also want the rewards.
First of all, I want the rewards to be about skill and NOTHING but skill. I also want solo players that are incredibly good at what they do to have access to the same level of rewards that super coordinated and talented groups have access to.
But I don't want a hollow tier system of ever increasing power. That's stupid.
I want 90-95% of all itemization to be about crafting - and I want crafting to be as challenging as PvE content. The only game that even attempted something like this is Vanguard (AFAIK) - where crafting required actual skill.
But I want legendary items to be extremely (EXTREMELY) rare - and I want them to be 100% unique. As in, only one of each kind in the entire playsplace. Then I want such an item to be accessible only through extreme skill on the side of the player - and something that only the very best players could ever dream of getting access to.
Which means that 90% of the population WOULD actually have the same level of items - because they can buy them from crafters, and it doesn't necessarily mean endless grinding.
But then again, I'm a sandbox player at heart - and I want all items tradable - even the most powerful ones. So, being a merchant would be just as viable and powerful as being a powerful PvP/PvE player.
The only game on the horizon that seems to touch upon this kind of thing is ArcheAge - but I don't know enough about the details.
The key, most definitely, is to give the power of creation to the players.
EvE Online is the only current example of a really successful game that's doing this kind of thing. The only problem being that the actual gameplay is stale and it feels more like an economy simulator than a game.
I want the best parts of the immersive themeparks merged with the best parts of the freeform sandboxes. For that, we need a huge budget and true creative vision.
Wow. thank god you are not a developer DKlord. You would make an mmo with exactly the same game mechanics and content as the other 1000 games and hope your copy and paste gear grind brings in the bucks?
I am all for a discussion about how mmos can improve but what you suggesting is there is no point trying to take away the carrot and make a game that is fun to be played instead. To answer your statement:
'But I don't see how taking it away will make the actual content last longer or be more fun.'
Because you change said content until you create something that IS fun and lasts longer without a big shiny carrot being dangled on your nose.
I am not saying GW2 is the end all solution but if you truly agree that the tier upgrade grind is been done to death and needs to die then you have to start supporting the games that try to break this genre destroying feature.
pessimistic statements like yours with no real attempt to offer a solution to the problem bring nothing to this forum and serve to create troll and troll haters (not say your a troll but your creating an enviroment where they flourish). They love badly worded, non backed up sweeping statements about the genre or entire games, its easy prey.
edit: Posted this before i read your post above this, I take back the bit about no information or solution to the problem.
If you continue to make sweeping statements like you know what everyone everywhere thinks about a certain topic then I am going to shout at you.
It easy to type 'I think this is the worst game ever'
Rather than the 'This is the worst game ever'
I don't know. It seems that you want evolution, but you also want GW2 to be more like WoW. I think that there's already a crowded room of those already.
Why should the continued success of GW2 in 2020 be of concern to any of us? In fact I think most of us would have happily moved on with our lives and be playing other games already.
I think this may be your fundamental mistake: it's GW2, not WoW 2.
In games like WoW, theres always conten you find to be true shit (personal opinions), before you get to the fun content.
No, I don't want it to be like WoW - I'm done with that model.
I'm simply saying the power progression is a universal part of ALL RPGs - and it has been since the 70s. That's very much an integral part of the experience.
Once you reach 80 - a lot of people will have to REALLY enjoy doing the content - or they'll be missing that vital ingredient.
So, I WANT power progression - just not like it has been done in WoW and so many other games. That design is dead now.
Vanila and TBC felt grind-less because the game was new and shinny. After so many years and countless wow-clones people are tired of that kind of progression.
I've played WoW for many years in the past but now Im not even thinking of going back. Why? Because even if I wanted to participate to its all famous "endgame" (which btw hasnt been udated for 9 months now) I'd have to grind the old heroic dungeons again before being able to join the new Raids.
PvP is even worse. Trying to start PvP without pvp gear is not fun at all.
In GW2 you can pvp from the start. There are no gear imbalances. Sure some people may customize their gear (through sigils) better than others but the options are there for all.
And in PvE, there are still hard challenges but the way to overcome them is not getting better gear. You may try to customize your character or gear better, try different weapon setups, find people you can synergize with and even try to play better yourself ! I wont say that GW2 is the definition of a skill based game but it requires more skill than gear based, trinity system games.
Finally, dont underestimate the power of cosmetic items that are the "endgame hunt" in GW2 both in PvE and PvP!
People are trying to do the craziest achievements in older games only to gain cosmetic items or even pay real money for them in cash shops (like mounts and pets from the WoW store).
It sounds to me like you want a lifestyle choice, not a $60 game.
You might want to check out Entropia Universe then: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/31
In the meantime, good luck on your search!
Nice strawman.
As if GW2 is the only fun MMO that has ever been. WoW vanilla was really boring, right? It was a terrible game that forced people to play through the evil loot treadmill that kept them locked down with their keyboards.
This whole B2P = better content is not logical.
With a subscription based game, you're expecting people to keep playing - so you're even MORE obligated to keep the content as fun as possible. Yes, you have to provide long-term motivation - but you DO NOT provide that by making the actual content boring.
WoW and other quality themeparks have fantastic and fun content - it just can't last forever, even with variety.
That's why we need something fresh. GW2 is fresh enough - but it doesn't have the carrot (really) after level 80.
No, I want an MMO that's perpetually interesting and can last for a long time. The game you link sounds like crap. But thanks.
I suppose you want a game that doesn't last and then you'll just stop playing games entirely, right? Playing games isn't really a part of your life?
In case you've missed it, there's a whole universe of games out there.
I don't need my games to last forever, I only need them to be fun when I'm playing.
You're totally making this up.
There's no proof for this, this is just your pet theory. It's nice you like that kind of thing, but don't try pushing your agenda by creating an imaginary sandbox MMORPG that has managed to boundlessly hold most people's attention.
I'm not making my opinion up, no. It's something that's formed as I've accumulated experience and applied thought and reason to it.
I'll speak it whenever I feel it's relevant - and I'm afraid you don't really get to change that.
So, basically, you repeat content with a variety of challenge settings for no real reward except aesthetic ones, right?
Exactly like all the other themeparks except for the power progression.
You do it for "fun" instead of the rewards, right? Because all other themeparks are boring because they also provide long-term rewards, right?
you just don't get it. It's not about not liking repeating content or disliking raids, it's about being forced to do so to continue doing new content. Once I've done a raid, I don't want to be prevented from doing another one because I didn't get a drop.Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Why is it that a "long time" means forever for you?
Personally, I'd love a game that's fun and immersive for a few years - and this genre can do that.
To each his own, however.
There's a place for sandbox and there's a place for themepark. Neither is better.
Personally there's just no chance I'd be playing Eve or AA when it comes out. It's not that either are bad, on the contrary I think they're fantastic and I love reading news of what's happening in Eve. But mining asteriods, running stations or playing the market just isn't for me, I have neither the time nor freedom to devote that much attention.
Can people at least respect that some like me like themepark and can find enjoyment in just the simple fact of logging in and trying out different new clothes?
Right, but it's merely an opinion. It's not even an opinion that has a RL example to point to. It's a fantasy you've evolved inside your head because you wish games were a certain way (That they're mostly not).
You have this wonderful idea in your head, and that's great, but there's no physical analog to what you're talking about.
The difference between people saying GW2 endgame is great, and you saying your idea for endgame is great...
... is at least the GW2 people will find out if they're right or wrong in a few months.
You're lucky, almost invariably the sandbox games are shitty and poorly done or extremely niche, so you have a thousand excuses other than 'well, guess my end game model is bad too' to point to.
In MY opinion, there isn't any game that can hold me through 'endgame'. I might be proven wrong some day, but until then, I definitely approve of the B2P model over the P2P model where I usually find myself paying even after I've actually lost interest in the game. The idea of trying to create a game with mythically boundless content for all is pretty silly.
edit: Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound in my previous message that you're not allowed to hold baseless opinions!
Feel free! I personally like my opinions to have a little fact behind them, but hey, whatever works. 
i would totally agree with you ... in my opinion iwould go a step further and say almost no game is bad ... everyone is not supposed to like everything ... just cause you like or dont like some thing doesnt make it good or bad. Again to each to their own.
Hence i dont mind people saying i didnt like this or i liked that .. what annoys me is that when people say this is wrong and this way is right , this is Good and this is bad.
i'm in the same boat.. ultima online, swg, wow, rift, swtor, conan, eve online..
theres never been a game aside from city of heroes that held me for more than 3 or 4 months... and to this day i have no clue why i played city of heroes for a whole year. not to divert the topic, i'm really interested in whether GW2 will do something crazy like COH did for me.
at least they're trying something somewhat different. i can't just look at it like i did most other games and say "well thats gonna be a fun month." not that theres anything wrong with a fun month in my book.
on a side note.. its always wise to state your opinions as such, like Meow did here. rather than making absolute statements and presenting your opinions as you would present a factual statement! then there is no reason for anyone to correct them and no reason to get upset when they do!
I'm not really sure what your point is in all of this.
It's not a competition for me about who's right or who's wrong.
I don't consider myself lucky that sandboxes tend to be really poorly executed - because if they weren't, I'd probably play some of them more than I have.
You're free to approve of anything you like based on anything you like. That's on you.
In my opinion, having dreams and concepts in your head about how to evolve the genre is not bad or harmful - and it's very relevant when talking about concepts you don't personally agree with.
It's not about providing evidence or manipulating people into agreeing with me. It's about providing arguments that people can respond to or reflect upon. Maybe they agree, maybe they don't - and that's really what exchanging ideas and thoughts are all about.
Also, you don't have to apologize for having a problem with my opinion. It's really of no concern to me.