Originally posted by sinloi (I still give the game a month before people start whining about nothing to do..) that will happen regardless of the end game content no game withstands contact with the sleepless addicts.
I don't doubt it, it happens with every MMO. I think the majority will be fulfilled for a lot longer though.
content is one thing, i am sure there will be stuff to do and things added after launch.
my concern is the fact that you do not progress your character once you hit level 80 other than cosmetic upgrades or more (not better) skill points.
i don't speak for everyone but for me personally, i have to be progressing my character in order to continue working on it.
it makes no sense to me that you progress your character from 1-80 but then all of a sudden it stops and people are supposed to just continue to play a character for months or years just for cosmetic upgrades?
i am not saying gear grind is the answer, i actually think something similar to Daoc's "realm points" could work well, even if they are only usable in wvwvw
it would at least give people something to work twords, which is better than what thye got now which is next to nothing.
also, if i want to check out that new content they talked about in that link i would rather just make an alt so i feel like i am actually progressing with my character.
to me alt making is not end game and even though i do like me some alts that wont be enough to keep me playing for a long time.
so many people are getting so defensive over these legitimate concerns but it is a reality for many people.
Read my post above. There's more than one type of progression. Vertical progression isn't the only progression. After level 80, Guild Wars 2 progression is more horizontal. You'll never become any more powerful, as you've plateaued. That doesn't meant you've exhausted your content, or you can't do anything to make your character better. You can research and practice with new builds and tactics. You can run dungeons and try to collect ever dungeon set in the game. You can try to collect every legendary item in the game. You can try to make it big through the auction house. If you are achievement focused, you can explore 100% of the map, complete every item in the map, and try to complete all the achievements. If you love PvP, you can try for those monthly/yearly tournaments.
Nobody is getting defensive. We are trying to answer your concerns, but you aren't accepting our responses. If the only form of progression you like is vertical, with constant power increase, then Guild Wars 2 won't be for you. That's the only real answer that works, whether you like it or not.
Originally posted by sinloi (I still give the game a month before people start whining about nothing to do..) that will happen regardless of the end game content no game withstands contact with the sleepless addicts.
I don't doubt it, it happens with every MMO. I think the majority will be fulfilled for a lot longer though.
Of course forums will be filled with negativity. Those who enjoy the game will be playing, wheras those who aren't having fun will be on the forums. As with every game, if you judge a game by forums, it'll be the worst game in the history of games.
I always tought that in games with gear progression when you hit level cap you progress your gear. Don't know many games that let you progress your character when you hit cap.
You grind for gear so it's mostly gear progression IMO. I'm no expert so I might be wrong tho.
content is one thing, i am sure there will be stuff to do and things added after launch.my concern is the fact that you do not progress your character once you hit level 80 other than cosmetic upgrades or more (not better) skill points.i don't speak for everyone but for me personally, i have to be progressing my character in order to continue working on it.it makes no sense to me that you progress your character from 1-80 but then all of a sudden it stops and people are supposed to just continue to play a character for months or years just for cosmetic upgrades?i am not saying gear grind is the answer, i actually think something similar to Daoc's "realm points" could work well, even if they are only usable in wvwvwit would at least give people something to work twords, which is better than what thye got now which is next to nothing.also, if i want to check out that new content they talked about in that link i would rather just make an alt so i feel like i am actually progressing with my character.to me alt making is not end game and even though i do like me some alts that wont be enough to keep me playing for a long time.so many people are getting so defensive over these legitimate concerns but it is a reality for many people.
Read my post above. There's more than one type of progression. Vertical progression isn't the only progression. After level 80, Guild Wars 2 progression is more horizontal. You'll never become any more powerful, as you've plateaued. That doesn't meant you've exhausted your content, or you can't do anything to make your character better. You can research and practice with new builds and tactics. You can run dungeons and try to collect ever dungeon set in the game. You can try to collect every legendary item in the game. You can try to make it big through the auction house. If you are achievement focused, you can explore 100% of the map, complete every item in the map, and try to complete all the achievements. If you love PvP, you can try for those monthly/yearly tournaments.
Nobody is getting defensive. We are trying to answer your concerns, but you aren't accepting our responses. If the only form of progression you like is vertical, with constant power increase, then Guild Wars 2 won't be for you. That's the only real answer that works, whether you like it or not.
i don't accept your response because it doesn't address my concerns, it just confirms them (sort of).
you guys keep saying GW2 isn't for me yet between the levels 1-80 its exactly what i want, but then it just stops.
maybe i will be surprised and maybe it will keep me interested longer than i think it will, but i have my doubts.
either way i am going to find out and if not i will just have to put the game down for a while or play alts.
i will say this though, if it is an issue for me its going to be an issue for a lot of other people as well i assure you.
you don't want that from a community standpoint, you want people to continue playing and simply telling them "this game isn't for you" isn't the answer.
i am not complaining about the mechanics of this game or the content, i simply want to be able to enjoy it for as long as possible at endgame.
Originally posted by Adzija I always tought that in games with gear progression when you hit level cap you progress your gear. Don't know many games that let you progress your character when you hit cap.You grind for gear so it's mostly gear progression IMO. I'm no expert so I might be wrong tho.
EQ and Daoc immediately come to mind. IMO adopting a similar system to what Daoc had would be great considering there is no gear progression.
You must understand that one of the features lots of people love about the game is that there is no constant power progression. This is also a design choice and this is why you get responses that you won't like the game if you want permanent power progression for as long as you play, there is a power limit in the game.
I can't imagine someone hitting 80 and having the perfect gear for every situation so you will still have to get more gear (depending on how exactly you got to 80 in the first place) Level 80+ players have lots to look forward too, cosmetic upgrades and more horizontal progression, different items for different builds, more skills etc but not a power level increase.
There has been a discussion before about bonuses available for those who play WvW for a long period of time but there are many who simply don't want that, many players want an even playing field and GW2 offers an even playing field.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Originally posted by sinloi (I still give the game a month before people start whining about nothing to do..) that will happen regardless of the end game content no game withstands contact with the sleepless addicts.
I don't doubt it, it happens with every MMO. I think the majority will be fulfilled for a lot longer though.
Of course forums will be filled with negativity. Those who enjoy the game will be playing, wheras those who aren't having fun will be on the forums. As with every game, if you judge a game by forums, it'll be the worst game in the history of games.
Ain't that the truth. I never listen to anyone about games here, maybe their experiences with customer service or whatever, but not about the games themselves. Some people have even been caught out lying about ever having played the damn things in the first place. If I had listened to people on forums, I would have never tried WoW. If I had listened to people on forums, I would think that GW2 is a carebear MMO with bad graphics and nothing to do at level cap; I wouldn't think beyond that. I would be stuck with nothing to play because a lot of forum posters don't like playing games, they like waiting - and in the meantime, forum PVP.
When the GW2 betas were up, this site was a ghost town.
Originally posted by seridan Originally posted by baphametis that really too much to ask?
You must understand that one of the features lots of people love about the game is that there is no constant power progression. This is also a design choice and this is why you get responses that you won't like the game if you want permanent power progression for as long as you play, there is a power limit in the game.
I can't imagine someone hitting 80 and having the perfect gear for every situation so you will still have to get more gear (depending on how exactly you got to 80 in the first place) Level 80+ players have lots to look forward too, cosmetic upgrades and more horizontal progression, different items for different builds, more skills etc but not a power level increase.
There has been a discussion before about bonuses available for those who play WvW for a long period of time but there are many who simply don't want that, many players want an even playing field and GW2 offers an even playing field.
i understand that but i also think a lot of those people may change their mind once they are max level and cannot progress their character any further in power.
you progress your character's power from level 1-80 then it just stops. the reality is, that is likely going to be an issue for a lot of people.
i really do want to believe that it will be enough to keep me playing but its a concern i have long term.
i understand that but i also think a lot of those people may change their mind once they are max level and cannot progress their character any further in power.
you progress your character's power from level 1-80 then it just stops. the reality is, that is likely going to be an issue for a lot of people.
i really do want to believe that it will be enough to keep me playing but its a concern i have long term.
I see you are honest about your concern and not trolling for nothing.
Main problem is that game is very close to release (few weeks), and there is very little chance that the portion of game you are concerned about will change in any way. My guess is that people say to you ''this may not be the game for you'' because of that.
We all mostly know what to expect when we hit 80, at least progression wise. For now if you really like game up to level cap I belive it would be best for you just to take the game as it is and with time try to push your ideas to Anet dev team. There is very little that people here can do for your main concern.
It is very true that people that want character progression at level 80 might not get what they want in the long run (at least when they unlock all skills). At this point I don't see what options there are beside these 2: either play the game as it is or skip it all together.
content is one thing, i am sure there will be stuff to do and things added after launch.my concern is the fact that you do not progress your character once you hit level 80 other than cosmetic upgrades or more (not better) skill points.i don't speak for everyone but for me personally, i have to be progressing my character in order to continue working on it.it makes no sense to me that you progress your character from 1-80 but then all of a sudden it stops and people are supposed to just continue to play a character for months or years just for cosmetic upgrades?i am not saying gear grind is the answer, i actually think something similar to Daoc's "realm points" could work well, even if they are only usable in wvwvwit would at least give people something to work twords, which is better than what thye got now which is next to nothing.also, if i want to check out that new content they talked about in that link i would rather just make an alt so i feel like i am actually progressing with my character.to me alt making is not end game and even though i do like me some alts that wont be enough to keep me playing for a long time.so many people are getting so defensive over these legitimate concerns but it is a reality for many people.
Read my post above. There's more than one type of progression. Vertical progression isn't the only progression. After level 80, Guild Wars 2 progression is more horizontal. You'll never become any more powerful, as you've plateaued. That doesn't meant you've exhausted your content, or you can't do anything to make your character better. You can research and practice with new builds and tactics. You can run dungeons and try to collect ever dungeon set in the game. You can try to collect every legendary item in the game. You can try to make it big through the auction house. If you are achievement focused, you can explore 100% of the map, complete every item in the map, and try to complete all the achievements. If you love PvP, you can try for those monthly/yearly tournaments.
Nobody is getting defensive. We are trying to answer your concerns, but you aren't accepting our responses. If the only form of progression you like is vertical, with constant power increase, then Guild Wars 2 won't be for you. That's the only real answer that works, whether you like it or not.
i don't accept your response because it doesn't address my concerns, it just confirms them (sort of).
you guys keep saying GW2 isn't for me yet between the levels 1-80 its exactly what i want, but then it just stops.
maybe i will be surprised and maybe it will keep me interested longer than i think it will, but i have my doubts.
either way i am going to find out and if not i will just have to put the game down for a while or play alts.
i will say this though, if it is an issue for me its going to be an issue for a lot of other people as well i assure you.
you don't want that from a community standpoint, you want people to continue playing and simply telling them "this game isn't for you" isn't the answer.
i am not complaining about the mechanics of this game or the content, i simply want to be able to enjoy it for as long as possible at endgame.
is that really too much to ask?
If you grow bored at level 80, you move on and go do something else until an expansion comes out. It's really that simple.
You are judging end game from your own point of view, and not the point of view of those who are interested in this game. Remember GW1 had 7 million accounts, and still has a very active userbase 5 years after the last expansion was released. It may not be as active as it use to be, but as I said it's been 5 years since they put out an expansion and even longer for a campaign. There are just as many who look at the lack of vertical power progression at endgame with joy.
This doesn't mean there's nothing to do at level 80. When you are at level 80, you do what you want to do. If you want to explore, explore. If you want to run dungeons, run dungeons, if you want to PvP, then PvP. I can look at games like Starcraft, LoL, CoD, etc. and see that there is a large playerbase (probably larger than those who love vertical power progression) for a game like Guild Wars 2. Not to mention you are drawing from a very loyal Guild Wars 1 fan base, which is one of the most successful PC games of all time.
As I said, you can advance your character without gaining power. And how you advance your character is up to you. If GW2 has titles, you could try obtaining many titles, to to gain many acheivements, try to obtain the rarest gear possible, or the most expensive gear.
As I said, if you want constant vertical power progression, this game is not for you. There is no other answer I can give you. If you enjoy levels 1-80, then play levels 1-80 and move on. As I said, there is no other answer I can give you. Guild Wars 2 is not targeting those who love the constant vertical power progression.
Originally posted by Badaboom F*** "end game". Guild Wars 2 is "all game."
I've seen people get really mad about statements like this because of some preconceived notion that all "endgame" has to match up to some previously written code and if it deviates from that code, it's just a gimmick.
Well guess what? The endgame that WoW popularized is a gimmick. One isn't better than the next.
Mad about them? No, not I anyway. Roll my eyes at them? Yeah, it's very facetious to me, as what's an MMO that doesn't offer long-term play? Answer being all those which have been viewed as major fails over the last several years.
Does GW2 offer what I'd view as long term play? I really don't know, and I'm not about to guess. That said the games I liked years ago did, GW2 is taking some notes from those games, explorability, meaningful PVP that strays away from BG's being the only real option, self-direction being important to the experience, etc...
What set this genre apart early on was these games didn't end, what pushed players in mass away was developmental mistakes, not running out of things to do or see. That is something that has been lost for what seems many years now, people leave due to nothing fun to do, this wasn't the case early on.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by baphametis that really too much to ask?
You must understand that one of the features lots of people love about the game is that there is no constant power progression. This is also a design choice and this is why you get responses that you won't like the game if you want permanent power progression for as long as you play, there is a power limit in the game.
I can't imagine someone hitting 80 and having the perfect gear for every situation so you will still have to get more gear (depending on how exactly you got to 80 in the first place) Level 80+ players have lots to look forward too, cosmetic upgrades and more horizontal progression, different items for different builds, more skills etc but not a power level increase.
There has been a discussion before about bonuses available for those who play WvW for a long period of time but there are many who simply don't want that, many players want an even playing field and GW2 offers an even playing field.
i understand that but i also think a lot of those people may change their mind once they are max level and cannot progress their character any further in power.
you progress your character's power from level 1-80 then it just stops. the reality is, that is likely going to be an issue for a lot of people.
i really do want to believe that it will be enough to keep me playing but its a concern i have long term.
The thing is that the majority of people playing GW2 don't seem to agree with what you think of as good, or fun, endgame. And that's fine. Maybe at level 80 you'll decide you don't want to play whatever there is left to do. That's fine to, you have the option of dropping the game for a while and then coming back. I've played GW1 for over 6 years without the progression that you seem to like and I like it fine. Many others seem to also.
Where the issues seem to stem from is a vocal minority who yell and scream that endgame should be "this way" and not "that way". One of the fears I have is that vocal minority actually being able to influence the developers enough so they change the game, or the endgame, away from the way the majority of people seem to want it. It seems to have happened with other games, so it's definitely possible, however unlikely, that it could happen here.
Another thing is that we constantly hear that GW2 won't have longevity solely because the endgame isn't what some people want. So we respond with, "then don't play it", or "play it, then leave when you're bored". But I think there comes a point when complaining about a certain feature that you don't like becomes just trolling because you repeat the same mantra over and over again regardless of what people say in response.
Note: I'm not directing that at you specifically, baphamet. It seems that you have a personal concern about a game you will play. Most people posting negative stuff about this game have no intention of playing and refuse to listen to reasonable responses. My best piece of advice for you is to just play the game and if you don't like the "endgame", then just stop. Hopefully you at least got your $60 worth.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
so many people are getting so defensive over these legitimate concerns but it is a reality for many people.
They are not legitimate concerns. Hundreds of millions of people invest billions of hours of game-playing time in games that are not focused on endlessly advancing their avatar's power. Most games that have ever existed did not endlessly increase the power of one's pieces, side, or characters. Most people find the enjoyment to be had in any game to lie in the friendship and good times they have by sharing game-time with others.
Originally posted by baphametis that really too much to ask?
You must understand that one of the features lots of people love about the game is that there is no constant power progression. This is also a design choice and this is why you get responses that you won't like the game if you want permanent power progression for as long as you play, there is a power limit in the game.
I can't imagine someone hitting 80 and having the perfect gear for every situation so you will still have to get more gear (depending on how exactly you got to 80 in the first place) Level 80+ players have lots to look forward too, cosmetic upgrades and more horizontal progression, different items for different builds, more skills etc but not a power level increase.
There has been a discussion before about bonuses available for those who play WvW for a long period of time but there are many who simply don't want that, many players want an even playing field and GW2 offers an even playing field.
i understand that but i also think a lot of those people may change their mind once they are max level and cannot progress their character any further in power.
you progress your character's power from level 1-80 then it just stops. the reality is, that is likely going to be an issue for a lot of people.
i really do want to believe that it will be enough to keep me playing but its a concern i have long term.
I bet if they added realm points like daoc, it would do wonders for extending the play time of people once they hit 80. That little extra customization from realm abilities in daoc improved the game drastically for me. Had fun in the rvr, but the opportunity to gather points from killing others and improve my characters a little further made it so much more worthwhile. Probably why I spent several years in the game.
I can definitely see people hitting 80, playing for a bit after, then going hmm ok what next, and just stop playing. Sure you can go through all the other content in the game by downscaling, but you can do that in other games too and it seems not many people tend to do that.
From what I read it does seem they have a few other kinds of progression after 80, and they probably will add more. Even daoc did not have realm points when it first came out. Don't need a loot progression either. But I do think some kind of extra progression that will appeal to the masses is needed.
Originally posted by baphametis that really too much to ask?
You must understand that one of the features lots of people love about the game is that there is no constant power progression. This is also a design choice and this is why you get responses that you won't like the game if you want permanent power progression for as long as you play, there is a power limit in the game.
I can't imagine someone hitting 80 and having the perfect gear for every situation so you will still have to get more gear (depending on how exactly you got to 80 in the first place) Level 80+ players have lots to look forward too, cosmetic upgrades and more horizontal progression, different items for different builds, more skills etc but not a power level increase.
There has been a discussion before about bonuses available for those who play WvW for a long period of time but there are many who simply don't want that, many players want an even playing field and GW2 offers an even playing field.
i understand that but i also think a lot of those people may change their mind once they are max level and cannot progress their character any further in power.
you progress your character's power from level 1-80 then it just stops. the reality is, that is likely going to be an issue for a lot of people.
i really do want to believe that it will be enough to keep me playing but its a concern i have long term.
The thing is that the majority of people playing GW2 don't seem to agree with what you think of as good, or fun, endgame. And that's fine. Maybe at level 80 you'll decide you don't want to play whatever there is left to do. That's fine to, you have the option of dropping the game for a while and then coming back. I've played GW1 for over 6 years without the progression that you seem to like and I like it fine. Many others seem to also.
Where the issues seem to stem from is a vocal minority who yell and scream that endgame should be "this way" and not "that way". One of the fears I have is that vocal minority actually being able to influence the developers enough so they change the game, or the endgame, away from the way the majority of people seem to want it. It seems to have happened with other games, so it's definitely possible, however unlikely, that it could happen here.
Another thing is that we constantly hear that GW2 won't have longevity solely because the endgame isn't what some people want. So we respond with, "then don't play it", or "play it, then leave when you're bored". But I think there comes a point when complaining about a certain feature that you don't like becomes just trolling because you repeat the same mantra over and over again regardless of what people say in response.
Note: I'm not directing that at you specifically, baphamet. It seems that you have a personal concern about a game you will play. Most people posting negative stuff about this game have no intention of playing and refuse to listen to reasonable responses. My best piece of advice for you is to just play the game and if you don't like the "endgame", then just stop. Hopefully you at least got your $60 worth.
You have no idea what is a vocal minority vs a real majority. You are just making assumptions to support yourself.
Originally posted by sinloi (I still give the game a month before people start whining about nothing to do..) that will happen regardless of the end game content no game withstands contact with the sleepless addicts.
I don't doubt it, it happens with every MMO. I think the majority will be fulfilled for a lot longer though.
No it doesn't. It only happens with the countless wow clones that have quick levelling and then 5 dungeons over and over. No one got to end level in Asheron's Call or some other MMOs for years.
Originally posted by Vynt Originally posted by baphametOriginally posted by seridanOriginally posted by baphametis that really too much to ask?
You must understand that one of the features lots of people love about the game is that there is no constant power progression. This is also a design choice and this is why you get responses that you won't like the game if you want permanent power progression for as long as you play, there is a power limit in the game.I can't imagine someone hitting 80 and having the perfect gear for every situation so you will still have to get more gear (depending on how exactly you got to 80 in the first place) Level 80+ players have lots to look forward too, cosmetic upgrades and more horizontal progression, different items for different builds, more skills etc but not a power level increase.There has been a discussion before about bonuses available for those who play WvW for a long period of time but there are many who simply don't want that, many players want an even playing field and GW2 offers an even playing field.i understand that but i also think a lot of those people may change their mind once they are max level and cannot progress their character any further in power.you progress your character's power from level 1-80 then it just stops. the reality is, that is likely going to be an issue for a lot of people.i really do want to believe that it will be enough to keep me playing but its a concern i have long term.I bet if they added realm points like daoc, it would do wonders for extending the play time of people once they hit 80. That little extra customization from realm abilities in daoc improved the game drastically for me. Had fun in the rvr, but the opportunity to gather points from killing others and improve my characters a little further made it so much more worthwhile. Probably why I spent several years in the game.
I can definitely see people hitting 80, playing for a bit after, then going hmm ok what next, and just stop playing. Sure you can go through all the other content in the game by downscaling, but you can do that in other games too and it seems not many people tend to do that.
From what I read it does seem they have a few other kinds of progression after 80, and they probably will add more. Even daoc did not have realm points when it first came out. Don't need a loot progression either. But I do think some kind of extra progression that will appeal to the masses is needed.
good post, i do hope they come up with something soon after launch and not wait until servers pops start shrinking.
i totally agree about the realm points being added as a good idea, i have mentioned that a few times.
even if the benefits you got only worked in wvwvw i would be okay with that.
Originally posted by baphametis that really too much to ask?
You must understand that one of the features lots of people love about the game is that there is no constant power progression. This is also a design choice and this is why you get responses that you won't like the game if you want permanent power progression for as long as you play, there is a power limit in the game.
I can't imagine someone hitting 80 and having the perfect gear for every situation so you will still have to get more gear (depending on how exactly you got to 80 in the first place) Level 80+ players have lots to look forward too, cosmetic upgrades and more horizontal progression, different items for different builds, more skills etc but not a power level increase.
There has been a discussion before about bonuses available for those who play WvW for a long period of time but there are many who simply don't want that, many players want an even playing field and GW2 offers an even playing field.
i understand that but i also think a lot of those people may change their mind once they are max level and cannot progress their character any further in power.
you progress your character's power from level 1-80 then it just stops. the reality is, that is likely going to be an issue for a lot of people.
i really do want to believe that it will be enough to keep me playing but its a concern i have long term.
The thing is that the majority of people playing GW2 don't seem to agree with what you think of as good, or fun, endgame. And that's fine. Maybe at level 80 you'll decide you don't want to play whatever there is left to do. That's fine to, you have the option of dropping the game for a while and then coming back. I've played GW1 for over 6 years without the progression that you seem to like and I like it fine. Many others seem to also.
Where the issues seem to stem from is a vocal minority who yell and scream that endgame should be "this way" and not "that way". One of the fears I have is that vocal minority actually being able to influence the developers enough so they change the game, or the endgame, away from the way the majority of people seem to want it. It seems to have happened with other games, so it's definitely possible, however unlikely, that it could happen here.
Another thing is that we constantly hear that GW2 won't have longevity solely because the endgame isn't what some people want. So we respond with, "then don't play it", or "play it, then leave when you're bored". But I think there comes a point when complaining about a certain feature that you don't like becomes just trolling because you repeat the same mantra over and over again regardless of what people say in response.
Note: I'm not directing that at you specifically, baphamet. It seems that you have a personal concern about a game you will play. Most people posting negative stuff about this game have no intention of playing and refuse to listen to reasonable responses. My best piece of advice for you is to just play the game and if you don't like the "endgame", then just stop. Hopefully you at least got your $60 worth.
You have no idea what is a vocal minority vs a real majority. You are just making assumptions to support yourself.
Scientifically? No. But it's not that hard to make an educated guess.
Show me anywhere in the official forums where the people who want to play the game ar complaining about what has been announced as the endgame.
In fact, show me anything but a very vocal minority on this site of people who want to play the game that don't agree with my statement. You'd be hard pressed to do that. I can name a handful of people who claim they will be playing but complain about the endgame. So, apparently you're the one who has no idea what they are talking about.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Originally posted by Meleagar Originally posted by baphametso many people are getting so defensive over these legitimate concerns but it is a reality for many people.
They are not legitimate concerns. Hundreds of millions of people invest billions of hours of game-playing time in games that are not focused on endlessly advancing their avatar's power. Most games that have ever existed did not endlessly increase the power of one's pieces, side, or characters. Most people find the enjoyment to be had in any game to lie in the friendship and good times they have by sharing game-time with others.
if you think that's not a legit concern for many people who could help populate the GW2 servers, then you are kidding yourself.
is GW2 not a mmorpg? name me a successful mmorpg with a persistent world that had absolutely no end game progression? in terms of advancing your character in power in some way.
mmorpg's and rpg's in general are built on the very philosophy of customizing your own character and making them stronger.
you are using all games as a comparison and that is not a legitimate comparison.
if i wanted to play mindless and pointless end game, i would play a FPS or an RTS game.
i want to continue doing what i have been doing from lvl 1-80 and i assure you i am not alone.
i am concerned about the longevity of this game, that makes it a legitimate concern because i know i am not alone.
Originally posted by evolver1972 Originally posted by shadow9d9Originally posted by evolver1972Originally posted by baphametOriginally posted by seridanOriginally posted by baphametis that really too much to ask?
You must understand that one of the features lots of people love about the game is that there is no constant power progression. This is also a design choice and this is why you get responses that you won't like the game if you want permanent power progression for as long as you play, there is a power limit in the game.I can't imagine someone hitting 80 and having the perfect gear for every situation so you will still have to get more gear (depending on how exactly you got to 80 in the first place) Level 80+ players have lots to look forward too, cosmetic upgrades and more horizontal progression, different items for different builds, more skills etc but not a power level increase.There has been a discussion before about bonuses available for those who play WvW for a long period of time but there are many who simply don't want that, many players want an even playing field and GW2 offers an even playing field.i understand that but i also think a lot of those people may change their mind once they are max level and cannot progress their character any further in power.you progress your character's power from level 1-80 then it just stops. the reality is, that is likely going to be an issue for a lot of people.i really do want to believe that it will be enough to keep me playing but its a concern i have long term.The thing is that the majority of people playing GW2 don't seem to agree with what you think of as good, or fun, endgame. And that's fine. Maybe at level 80 you'll decide you don't want to play whatever there is left to do. That's fine to, you have the option of dropping the game for a while and then coming back. I've played GW1 for over 6 years without the progression that you seem to like and I like it fine. Many others seem to also.Where the issues seem to stem from is a vocal minority who yell and scream that endgame should be "this way" and not "that way". One of the fears I have is that vocal minority actually being able to influence the developers enough so they change the game, or the endgame, away from the way the majority of people seem to want it. It seems to have happened with other games, so it's definitely possible, however unlikely, that it could happen here.Another thing is that we constantly hear that GW2 won't have longevity solely because the endgame isn't what some people want. So we respond with, "then don't play it", or "play it, then leave when you're bored". But I think there comes a point when complaining about a certain feature that you don't like becomes just trolling because you repeat the same mantra over and over again regardless of what people say in response.Note: I'm not directing that at you specifically, baphamet. It seems that you have a personal concern about a game you will play. Most people posting negative stuff about this game have no intention of playing and refuse to listen to reasonable responses. My best piece of advice for you is to just play the game and if you don't like the "endgame", then just stop. Hopefully you at least got your $60 worth.You have no idea what is a vocal minority vs a real majority. You are just making assumptions to support yourself.Scientifically? No. But it's not that hard to make an educated guess.
Show me anywhere in the official forums where the people who want to play the game ar complaining about what has been announced as the endgame.
In fact, show me anything but a very vocal minority on this site of people who want to play the game that don't agree with my statement. You'd be hard pressed to do that. I can name a handful of people who claim they will be playing but complain about the endgame. So, apparently you're the one who has no idea what they are talking about.
the majority that will keep GW2 going do not post on forums. also, some people refuse to look objectively to the game they are of fan of, same with people that are "haters".
i am neither, i already own this game and will be playing it, i consider myself unbiased because i play a lot of games and am not a fan of any one game.
i just want to enjoy this game for more than a few months, the things i have already mentioned about end game concern me in that regard.
Originally posted by baphametso many people are getting so defensive over these legitimate concerns but it is a reality for many people.
They are not legitimate concerns. Hundreds of millions of people invest billions of hours of game-playing time in games that are not focused on endlessly advancing their avatar's power. Most games that have ever existed did not endlessly increase the power of one's pieces, side, or characters. Most people find the enjoyment to be had in any game to lie in the friendship and good times they have by sharing game-time with others.
if you think that's not a legit concern for many people who could help populate the GW2 servers, then you are kidding yourself.
is GW2 not a mmorpg? name me a successful mmorpg with a persistent world that had absolutely no end game progression? in terms of advancing your character in power in some way.
mmorpg's and rpg's in general are built on the very philosophy of customizing your own character and making them stronger.
you are using all games as a comparison and that is not a legitimate comparison.
if i wanted to play mindless and pointless end game, i would play a FPS or an RTS game.
i want to continue doing what i have been doing from lvl 1-80 and i assure you i am not alone.
i am concerned about the longevity of this game, that makes it a legitimate concern because i know i am not alone.
Good lord man, why are you continuing on with this?
If you haven't gotten an answer you agree with after multiple threads and pages, chances are you're not going to get one.
This whole topic is subjective to begin with, and a new concept for an MMO with a persistent world, so you will not get an answer for the highlighted question, because none exist.
GW1 was the trail run for this system, GW2 is where they're betting the farm.
Why is it so hard for you to accept this is a new thing? We won't know how it plays out until we get there.
All we can do is make a pretty good guess based on GW1 (That it works).
the majority that will keep GW2 going do not post on forums. also, some people refuse to look objectively to the game they are of fan of, same with people that are "haters".
i am neither, i already own this game and will be playing it, i consider myself unbiased because i play a lot of games and am not a fan of any one game.
i just want to enjoy this game for more than a few months, the things i have already mentioned about end game concern me in that regard.
I just hope you don't get what you want. What you want is the opposite of what I want.
the majority that will keep GW2 going do not post on forums. also, some people refuse to look objectively to the game they are of fan of, same with people that are "haters".
i am neither, i already own this game and will be playing it, i consider myself unbiased because i play a lot of games and am not a fan of any one game.
i just want to enjoy this game for more than a few months, the things i have already mentioned about end game concern me in that regard.
I just hope you don't get what you want. What you want is the opposite of what I want.
Thanks, colddog, for putting it much more succinctly than I have. I'll state again that I think the majority of people who are playing this game feel that way also.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
i wish the idea of END GAME was taken out of the mmo world.... people in EQ didnt play EQ for this "end game" they played it cause they loved to explore all the aspects of the game same with origional SWG UO all these had a type of feeling that felt like a endless game, not a race to the end of content. even daoc the end game was the realm ranks which some people never hit the last realm rank but there was still a sense of ever lasting war and conquest that always kept those players wanting to just play and enjoy.
Comments
I don't doubt it, it happens with every MMO. I think the majority will be fulfilled for a lot longer though.
Read my post above. There's more than one type of progression. Vertical progression isn't the only progression. After level 80, Guild Wars 2 progression is more horizontal. You'll never become any more powerful, as you've plateaued. That doesn't meant you've exhausted your content, or you can't do anything to make your character better. You can research and practice with new builds and tactics. You can run dungeons and try to collect ever dungeon set in the game. You can try to collect every legendary item in the game. You can try to make it big through the auction house. If you are achievement focused, you can explore 100% of the map, complete every item in the map, and try to complete all the achievements. If you love PvP, you can try for those monthly/yearly tournaments.
Nobody is getting defensive. We are trying to answer your concerns, but you aren't accepting our responses. If the only form of progression you like is vertical, with constant power increase, then Guild Wars 2 won't be for you. That's the only real answer that works, whether you like it or not.
Of course forums will be filled with negativity. Those who enjoy the game will be playing, wheras those who aren't having fun will be on the forums. As with every game, if you judge a game by forums, it'll be the worst game in the history of games.
I always tought that in games with gear progression when you hit level cap you progress your gear. Don't know many games that let you progress your character when you hit cap.
You grind for gear so it's mostly gear progression IMO. I'm no expert so I might be wrong tho.
i don't accept your response because it doesn't address my concerns, it just confirms them (sort of).
you guys keep saying GW2 isn't for me yet between the levels 1-80 its exactly what i want, but then it just stops.
maybe i will be surprised and maybe it will keep me interested longer than i think it will, but i have my doubts.
either way i am going to find out and if not i will just have to put the game down for a while or play alts.
i will say this though, if it is an issue for me its going to be an issue for a lot of other people as well i assure you.
you don't want that from a community standpoint, you want people to continue playing and simply telling them "this game isn't for you" isn't the answer.
i am not complaining about the mechanics of this game or the content, i simply want to be able to enjoy it for as long as possible at endgame.
is that really too much to ask?
EQ and Daoc immediately come to mind. IMO adopting a similar system to what Daoc had would be great considering there is no gear progression.
You must understand that one of the features lots of people love about the game is that there is no constant power progression. This is also a design choice and this is why you get responses that you won't like the game if you want permanent power progression for as long as you play, there is a power limit in the game.
I can't imagine someone hitting 80 and having the perfect gear for every situation so you will still have to get more gear (depending on how exactly you got to 80 in the first place) Level 80+ players have lots to look forward too, cosmetic upgrades and more horizontal progression, different items for different builds, more skills etc but not a power level increase.
There has been a discussion before about bonuses available for those who play WvW for a long period of time but there are many who simply don't want that, many players want an even playing field and GW2 offers an even playing field.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Ain't that the truth. I never listen to anyone about games here, maybe their experiences with customer service or whatever, but not about the games themselves. Some people have even been caught out lying about ever having played the damn things in the first place. If I had listened to people on forums, I would have never tried WoW. If I had listened to people on forums, I would think that GW2 is a carebear MMO with bad graphics and nothing to do at level cap; I wouldn't think beyond that. I would be stuck with nothing to play because a lot of forum posters don't like playing games, they like waiting - and in the meantime, forum PVP.
When the GW2 betas were up, this site was a ghost town.
I can't imagine someone hitting 80 and having the perfect gear for every situation so you will still have to get more gear (depending on how exactly you got to 80 in the first place) Level 80+ players have lots to look forward too, cosmetic upgrades and more horizontal progression, different items for different builds, more skills etc but not a power level increase.
There has been a discussion before about bonuses available for those who play WvW for a long period of time but there are many who simply don't want that, many players want an even playing field and GW2 offers an even playing field.
i understand that but i also think a lot of those people may change their mind once they are max level and cannot progress their character any further in power.
you progress your character's power from level 1-80 then it just stops. the reality is, that is likely going to be an issue for a lot of people.
i really do want to believe that it will be enough to keep me playing but its a concern i have long term.
I see you are honest about your concern and not trolling for nothing.
Main problem is that game is very close to release (few weeks), and there is very little chance that the portion of game you are concerned about will change in any way. My guess is that people say to you ''this may not be the game for you'' because of that.
We all mostly know what to expect when we hit 80, at least progression wise. For now if you really like game up to level cap I belive it would be best for you just to take the game as it is and with time try to push your ideas to Anet dev team. There is very little that people here can do for your main concern.
It is very true that people that want character progression at level 80 might not get what they want in the long run (at least when they unlock all skills). At this point I don't see what options there are beside these 2: either play the game as it is or skip it all together.
If anyone has some other toughts please share.
If you grow bored at level 80, you move on and go do something else until an expansion comes out. It's really that simple.
You are judging end game from your own point of view, and not the point of view of those who are interested in this game. Remember GW1 had 7 million accounts, and still has a very active userbase 5 years after the last expansion was released. It may not be as active as it use to be, but as I said it's been 5 years since they put out an expansion and even longer for a campaign. There are just as many who look at the lack of vertical power progression at endgame with joy.
This doesn't mean there's nothing to do at level 80. When you are at level 80, you do what you want to do. If you want to explore, explore. If you want to run dungeons, run dungeons, if you want to PvP, then PvP. I can look at games like Starcraft, LoL, CoD, etc. and see that there is a large playerbase (probably larger than those who love vertical power progression) for a game like Guild Wars 2. Not to mention you are drawing from a very loyal Guild Wars 1 fan base, which is one of the most successful PC games of all time.
As I said, you can advance your character without gaining power. And how you advance your character is up to you. If GW2 has titles, you could try obtaining many titles, to to gain many acheivements, try to obtain the rarest gear possible, or the most expensive gear.
As I said, if you want constant vertical power progression, this game is not for you. There is no other answer I can give you. If you enjoy levels 1-80, then play levels 1-80 and move on. As I said, there is no other answer I can give you. Guild Wars 2 is not targeting those who love the constant vertical power progression.
Mad about them? No, not I anyway. Roll my eyes at them? Yeah, it's very facetious to me, as what's an MMO that doesn't offer long-term play? Answer being all those which have been viewed as major fails over the last several years.
Does GW2 offer what I'd view as long term play? I really don't know, and I'm not about to guess. That said the games I liked years ago did, GW2 is taking some notes from those games, explorability, meaningful PVP that strays away from BG's being the only real option, self-direction being important to the experience, etc...
What set this genre apart early on was these games didn't end, what pushed players in mass away was developmental mistakes, not running out of things to do or see. That is something that has been lost for what seems many years now, people leave due to nothing fun to do, this wasn't the case early on.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The thing is that the majority of people playing GW2 don't seem to agree with what you think of as good, or fun, endgame. And that's fine. Maybe at level 80 you'll decide you don't want to play whatever there is left to do. That's fine to, you have the option of dropping the game for a while and then coming back. I've played GW1 for over 6 years without the progression that you seem to like and I like it fine. Many others seem to also.
Where the issues seem to stem from is a vocal minority who yell and scream that endgame should be "this way" and not "that way". One of the fears I have is that vocal minority actually being able to influence the developers enough so they change the game, or the endgame, away from the way the majority of people seem to want it. It seems to have happened with other games, so it's definitely possible, however unlikely, that it could happen here.
Another thing is that we constantly hear that GW2 won't have longevity solely because the endgame isn't what some people want. So we respond with, "then don't play it", or "play it, then leave when you're bored". But I think there comes a point when complaining about a certain feature that you don't like becomes just trolling because you repeat the same mantra over and over again regardless of what people say in response.
Note: I'm not directing that at you specifically, baphamet. It seems that you have a personal concern about a game you will play. Most people posting negative stuff about this game have no intention of playing and refuse to listen to reasonable responses. My best piece of advice for you is to just play the game and if you don't like the "endgame", then just stop. Hopefully you at least got your $60 worth.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
I bet if they added realm points like daoc, it would do wonders for extending the play time of people once they hit 80. That little extra customization from realm abilities in daoc improved the game drastically for me. Had fun in the rvr, but the opportunity to gather points from killing others and improve my characters a little further made it so much more worthwhile. Probably why I spent several years in the game.
I can definitely see people hitting 80, playing for a bit after, then going hmm ok what next, and just stop playing. Sure you can go through all the other content in the game by downscaling, but you can do that in other games too and it seems not many people tend to do that.
From what I read it does seem they have a few other kinds of progression after 80, and they probably will add more. Even daoc did not have realm points when it first came out. Don't need a loot progression either. But I do think some kind of extra progression that will appeal to the masses is needed.
You have no idea what is a vocal minority vs a real majority. You are just making assumptions to support yourself.
No it doesn't. It only happens with the countless wow clones that have quick levelling and then 5 dungeons over and over. No one got to end level in Asheron's Call or some other MMOs for years.
i understand that but i also think a lot of those people may change their mind once they are max level and cannot progress their character any further in power. you progress your character's power from level 1-80 then it just stops. the reality is, that is likely going to be an issue for a lot of people. i really do want to believe that it will be enough to keep me playing but its a concern i have long term.
I bet if they added realm points like daoc, it would do wonders for extending the play time of people once they hit 80. That little extra customization from realm abilities in daoc improved the game drastically for me. Had fun in the rvr, but the opportunity to gather points from killing others and improve my characters a little further made it so much more worthwhile. Probably why I spent several years in the game.
I can definitely see people hitting 80, playing for a bit after, then going hmm ok what next, and just stop playing. Sure you can go through all the other content in the game by downscaling, but you can do that in other games too and it seems not many people tend to do that.
From what I read it does seem they have a few other kinds of progression after 80, and they probably will add more. Even daoc did not have realm points when it first came out. Don't need a loot progression either. But I do think some kind of extra progression that will appeal to the masses is needed.
good post, i do hope they come up with something soon after launch and not wait until servers pops start shrinking.
i totally agree about the realm points being added as a good idea, i have mentioned that a few times.
even if the benefits you got only worked in wvwvw i would be okay with that.
throw this old dog a bone for god sakes
Scientifically? No. But it's not that hard to make an educated guess.
Show me anywhere in the official forums where the people who want to play the game ar complaining about what has been announced as the endgame.
In fact, show me anything but a very vocal minority on this site of people who want to play the game that don't agree with my statement. You'd be hard pressed to do that. I can name a handful of people who claim they will be playing but complain about the endgame. So, apparently you're the one who has no idea what they are talking about.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
if you think that's not a legit concern for many people who could help populate the GW2 servers, then you are kidding yourself.
is GW2 not a mmorpg? name me a successful mmorpg with a persistent world that had absolutely no end game progression? in terms of advancing your character in power in some way.
mmorpg's and rpg's in general are built on the very philosophy of customizing your own character and making them stronger.
you are using all games as a comparison and that is not a legitimate comparison.
if i wanted to play mindless and pointless end game, i would play a FPS or an RTS game.
i want to continue doing what i have been doing from lvl 1-80 and i assure you i am not alone.
i am concerned about the longevity of this game, that makes it a legitimate concern because i know i am not alone.
i understand that but i also think a lot of those people may change their mind once they are max level and cannot progress their character any further in power. you progress your character's power from level 1-80 then it just stops. the reality is, that is likely going to be an issue for a lot of people. i really do want to believe that it will be enough to keep me playing but its a concern i have long term.
The thing is that the majority of people playing GW2 don't seem to agree with what you think of as good, or fun, endgame. And that's fine. Maybe at level 80 you'll decide you don't want to play whatever there is left to do. That's fine to, you have the option of dropping the game for a while and then coming back. I've played GW1 for over 6 years without the progression that you seem to like and I like it fine. Many others seem to also. Where the issues seem to stem from is a vocal minority who yell and scream that endgame should be "this way" and not "that way". One of the fears I have is that vocal minority actually being able to influence the developers enough so they change the game, or the endgame, away from the way the majority of people seem to want it. It seems to have happened with other games, so it's definitely possible, however unlikely, that it could happen here. Another thing is that we constantly hear that GW2 won't have longevity solely because the endgame isn't what some people want. So we respond with, "then don't play it", or "play it, then leave when you're bored". But I think there comes a point when complaining about a certain feature that you don't like becomes just trolling because you repeat the same mantra over and over again regardless of what people say in response. Note: I'm not directing that at you specifically, baphamet. It seems that you have a personal concern about a game you will play. Most people posting negative stuff about this game have no intention of playing and refuse to listen to reasonable responses. My best piece of advice for you is to just play the game and if you don't like the "endgame", then just stop. Hopefully you at least got your $60 worth.
You have no idea what is a vocal minority vs a real majority. You are just making assumptions to support yourself.
Scientifically? No. But it's not that hard to make an educated guess.
Show me anywhere in the official forums where the people who want to play the game ar complaining about what has been announced as the endgame.
In fact, show me anything but a very vocal minority on this site of people who want to play the game that don't agree with my statement. You'd be hard pressed to do that. I can name a handful of people who claim they will be playing but complain about the endgame. So, apparently you're the one who has no idea what they are talking about.
the majority that will keep GW2 going do not post on forums. also, some people refuse to look objectively to the game they are of fan of, same with people that are "haters".
i am neither, i already own this game and will be playing it, i consider myself unbiased because i play a lot of games and am not a fan of any one game.
i just want to enjoy this game for more than a few months, the things i have already mentioned about end game concern me in that regard.
Good lord man, why are you continuing on with this?
If you haven't gotten an answer you agree with after multiple threads and pages, chances are you're not going to get one.
This whole topic is subjective to begin with, and a new concept for an MMO with a persistent world, so you will not get an answer for the highlighted question, because none exist.
GW1 was the trail run for this system, GW2 is where they're betting the farm.
Why is it so hard for you to accept this is a new thing? We won't know how it plays out until we get there.
All we can do is make a pretty good guess based on GW1 (That it works).
I just hope you don't get what you want. What you want is the opposite of what I want.
Thanks, colddog, for putting it much more succinctly than I have. I'll state again that I think the majority of people who are playing this game feel that way also.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!