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GW2 re-did half of the MMORPG.

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  • yaoming36yaoming36 Member UncommonPosts: 189
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by yaoming36

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B-s9-rsBiU&feature=player_detailpage#t=595s

    Well you seem to think guild wars 2 doesn't have "raids". Maybe this is similar to what you are used to. I've posted this a couple times and seems to me you haven't seen it.

    It just looks like a boss from a single player game, there is no actual coordination or strategy.

    *sigh* I guess you didn't watch very far into it. There are cannons to fight the boss, you must defend the cannons. Defend the escort who bring supplies to fix the cannon. I also assume you didn't hear the part about "players encased in crystal and teamwork". Really though this is better than any other raid you are used to. What strategy did you ever need with 20+ raiding in typical WoW like game? 1 tank with 2-3 healers and rest just spamming 1-2 skills...

     

    Found this WoW raiding video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzFWjtZiZ-M

    Oh my god... is all I can say. The difference between the two vids speak for themselves.

  • otinanai123otinanai123 Member Posts: 265
    Originally posted by Jagarid
    Originally posted by otinanai123
    It's better that people realise that there is no endgame. You'll level to 80 and then do some dungeons, some WvW until you get bored, try out to 100% some maps and it's over. Then you roll alts or wait until the next expansion. The "endgame" will last less than a month.

    I hope you realize it will take more than a month for most people to get even a single Legendary weapon, and there are people who are surely going to strive for more than one.   Now, you personally may not care about going for one at all....but you need to acknowledge that "you" =/= "people", "you"="just one single person".

    Well of course I speak for myself and you speak for yourself. We will see who's right in 1.5-2 months. I predict a big part of gw2 players will be done with the game within a month.

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Jimmydean

    A big black shell of a dragon has dropped down and has electricity coming out of it. How much planning and coordination are you expecting lol.

    Honestly though if you listen to the ANet guy he goes over the different mechanics of the fight. Do we really want it scripted like WoW raids where we can track every second of the fight and who should have done what?
  • JimmydeanJimmydean Member UncommonPosts: 1,290
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Jimmydean

    A big back shell of a dragon has dropped down and has electricity coming out of it. How my planning and coordination are you expecting lol.

    Honestly though I'd you listen to the ANet guy he goes over the different mechanics of the fight. So we really want it scripted like WoW raids where we can track every second of the fight and who should have done what?

    Yes, it's called coordination. Many people enjoy it over a zerg fest where other players could just as easily be NPCs.

  • yaoming36yaoming36 Member UncommonPosts: 189
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Jimmydean

    A big back shell of a dragon has dropped down and has electricity coming out of it. How my planning and coordination are you expecting lol.

    Honestly though I'd you listen to the ANet guy he goes over the different mechanics of the fight. So we really want it scripted like WoW raids where we can track every second of the fight and who should have done what?

    Yes, it's called coordination. Many people enjoy it over a zerg fest where other players could just as easily be NPCs.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzFWjtZiZ-M

     

    This is some awesome coordination.

  • JagaridJagarid Member UncommonPosts: 415
    Originally posted by otinanai123
    Originally posted by Jagarid
    Originally posted by otinanai123
    It's better that people realise that there is no endgame. You'll level to 80 and then do some dungeons, some WvW until you get bored, try out to 100% some maps and it's over. Then you roll alts or wait until the next expansion. The "endgame" will last less than a month.

    I hope you realize it will take more than a month for most people to get even a single Legendary weapon, and there are people who are surely going to strive for more than one.   Now, you personally may not care about going for one at all....but you need to acknowledge that "you" =/= "people", "you"="just one single person".

    Well of course I speak for myself and you speak for yourself. We will see who's right in 1.5-2 months. I predict a big part of gw2 players will be done with the game within a month.

    At least you acknowledge it.  

    If you read the wording of your original post, which I quoted, you specifically said it quite differently originally, implying that everyone has the same mind set as you.

    Your predictions are meaningless to me, by the way.  And it's not a matter of you being right or wrong; NO game will be right for every single player, so obviouisly you will be right for some and wrong for others.  After the 1.5-2 months is past all I care about is what I am playing.   I am not unique, so if I am still playing GW2 at least "some" other people will also be doing so.  I could not care less whether it is a majority or a minority, as long as the game servers stay up.

  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by otinanai123
    Originally posted by Jagarid
    Originally posted by otinanai123
    It's better that people realise that there is no endgame. You'll level to 80 and then do some dungeons, some WvW until you get bored, try out to 100% some maps and it's over. Then you roll alts or wait until the next expansion. The "endgame" will last less than a month.

    I hope you realize it will take more than a month for most people to get even a single Legendary weapon, and there are people who are surely going to strive for more than one.   Now, you personally may not care about going for one at all....but you need to acknowledge that "you" =/= "people", "you"="just one single person".

    Well of course I speak for myself and you speak for yourself. We will see who's right in 1.5-2 months. I predict a big part of gw2 players will be done with the game within a month.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vWiuNWL1tY and here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djSkqibwJG4&playnext=1&list=PLE68A8007C05F1065&feature=results_video

    about all I can say on that.. 

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Jimmydean

    A big back shell of a dragon has dropped down and has electricity coming out of it. How my planning and coordination are you expecting lol.

    Honestly though I'd you listen to the ANet guy he goes over the different mechanics of the fight. So we really want it scripted like WoW raids where we can track every second of the fight and who should have done what?

    Yes, it's called coordination. Many people enjoy it over a zerg fest where other players could just as easily be NPCs.

     So are you talking about being able to choose who is with you rather than it being public? You can still coordinate if you are on Vent with people but I guess your right thatit's not in a controlled setting.  I rather like this way as it's a little more reaslitic.

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Member UncommonPosts: 1,290
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Jimmydean

    A big back shell of a dragon has dropped down and has electricity coming out of it. How my planning and coordination are you expecting lol.

    Honestly though I'd you listen to the ANet guy he goes over the different mechanics of the fight. So we really want it scripted like WoW raids where we can track every second of the fight and who should have done what?

    Yes, it's called coordination. Many people enjoy it over a zerg fest where other players could just as easily be NPCs.

     So are you talking about being able to choose who is with you rather than it being public? You can still coordinate if you are on Vent with people but I guess your right thatit's not in a controlled setting.  I rather like this way as it's a little more reaslitic.

    True. I forgot, we're going for realistic while we fight dragons with lightning shooting out their arse.

  • yaoming36yaoming36 Member UncommonPosts: 189

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-YBsK17j6I&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yepsdUAJZ0I&feature=relmfu

    I like how he doesn't bother replying to those who provide valid comments but rather just flames others

  • YakkinYakkin Member Posts: 919
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Jimmydean

    A big back shell of a dragon has dropped down and has electricity coming out of it. How my planning and coordination are you expecting lol.

    Honestly though I'd you listen to the ANet guy he goes over the different mechanics of the fight. So we really want it scripted like WoW raids where we can track every second of the fight and who should have done what?

    Yes, it's called coordination. Many people enjoy it over a zerg fest where other players could just as easily be NPCs.

     So are you talking about being able to choose who is with you rather than it being public? You can still coordinate if you are on Vent with people but I guess your right thatit's not in a controlled setting.  I rather like this way as it's a little more reaslitic.

    True. I forgot, we're going for realistic while we fight dragons with lightning shooting out their arse.

    Would Immersive be a better word? Instead of focusing on your millions of buttons or macros like in WoW, you can focus on whats going on in front of you and around you.

  • KuinnKuinn Member UncommonPosts: 2,072

    Hard to tell untill I'm at max level and fully experience and realize everything that GW2 offers to me. One thing I do know, I dont miss raids, I dont hate raids but I dont do them.

     

    I used to do them in WoW a long time ago untill it felt like pointless repetition just to stay in the raid-progress-game, not to mention I dont have that kind of spare time it requires anymore.

     

    I'd rather see more varied content across the board, and most definately I'd like to see devs bring the open worlds more alive than spent all the time creating countless isolated and instanced dungeons.

     

    Open world bosses, they dont all have to be raid scale either. Treasure hunting. Advanced exploring with climbing and such methods used. Mob towns with a lot more depth and clever quests. Dynamic events ofcourse feels great. Open world pvp love, with objectives and hot spots that possibly could dynamically change based on player success, time of the day, year, whatever.

     

    Sandbox mechanics here and there, no need for full freedom in my case, but some building, upkeeping, upgrading, etc, would be nice in faction cities, towns, outposts, maybe even to build and upgrade them from scratch over the years in set locations, that would keep people occupied nicely with the hunt for needed materials and upkeeping (farming? Pigs, cows, and stuff :P).

     

    I'd rather see general improvements to the gameworld and mechanics to keep players occupied while making the game feel more alive and believable, rather than have isolated and concentrated end-game mechanics that possibly can be only rammed through by people who have the right amount of free time, at the right time of day, with the right kind of management. This would be a game that does not please raiders, and that's okay, I'm not asking for a game that pleases everyone, there's enough of raiding based games imo.

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Jimmydean

    A big back shell of a dragon has dropped down and has electricity coming out of it. How my planning and coordination are you expecting lol.

    Honestly though I'd you listen to the ANet guy he goes over the different mechanics of the fight. So we really want it scripted like WoW raids where we can track every second of the fight and who should have done what?

    Yes, it's called coordination. Many people enjoy it over a zerg fest where other players could just as easily be NPCs.

     So are you talking about being able to choose who is with you rather than it being public? You can still coordinate if you are on Vent with people but I guess your right thatit's not in a controlled setting.  I rather like this way as it's a little more reaslitic.

    True. I forgot, we're going for realistic while we fight dragons with lightning shooting out their arse.

     Would you not agree that the more scripted and "one sequence to win" a fight is the more redundant it becomes over time?

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Member UncommonPosts: 1,290
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Jimmydean

    A big back shell of a dragon has dropped down and has electricity coming out of it. How my planning and coordination are you expecting lol.

    Honestly though I'd you listen to the ANet guy he goes over the different mechanics of the fight. So we really want it scripted like WoW raids where we can track every second of the fight and who should have done what?

    Yes, it's called coordination. Many people enjoy it over a zerg fest where other players could just as easily be NPCs.

     So are you talking about being able to choose who is with you rather than it being public? You can still coordinate if you are on Vent with people but I guess your right thatit's not in a controlled setting.  I rather like this way as it's a little more reaslitic.

    True. I forgot, we're going for realistic while we fight dragons with lightning shooting out their arse.

     Would you not agree that the more scripted and "one sequence to win" a fight is the more redundant it becomes over time?

    Ever done LFR in World of Warcraft?  Yea I kind of prefer having people I know and trust to play with.

  • JagaridJagarid Member UncommonPosts: 415
    Originally posted by Kuinn

    <snipped for brevity, not like people can't...you know, scroll up> 

    I'd rather see general improvements to the gameworld and mechanics to keep players occupied while making the game feel more alive and believable, rather than have isolated and concentrated end-game mechanics that possibly can be only rammed through by people who have the right amount of free time, at the right time of day, with the right kind of management. This would be a game that does not please raiders, and that's okay, I'm not asking for a game that pleases everyone, there's enough of raiding based games imo.

    Your post if very well said, Kuinn, and I agree 110%.

    But it also is the reason why this is such a contentious issue right now.   In past MMOs, for PVE, the group of people who are hardcore raiders have had a massive influence on the developers in terms of how end game is handled.   Far more influence than the number of hardcore raiders should warrant.  This is, imo, largely due to the subscription model previous MMOs used. Hard core raiders will stick around and continue to sub for a very long time if you keep pumping out new raid "tiers" at a semi-decent rate.

    GW2 developers decided to pave a different route AND the game is not sub.   If GW2 is very successful, we can anticipate future MMOs will learn from that success.   This game threatens the amount of  influence  hardcore raiders will have with all future MMO titles and, obviously, that is going to result in the aggressive threads we are seeing by them.  

    I'm sure in many cases the people don't even realize that this is the root of why they are so anti-GW2.  Threat response in humans is an instinctual response, so they may not even realize it is the root of their agitation.

  • stevebmbsqdstevebmbsqd Member Posts: 448
    I think GW2 is a great game for what it is. I still don't think it will hold the masses for a long period of time. Everyone will play it at first, the content will be consumed, and people will stop back occasionally for something to do while they wait for new content. It is B2P so I really don't see the problem with this. I don't see what some of you do with the auto scaling and doing events as something that will keep people for a long period of time. I think the PVP players will stay, but the PVE players will move on and come back as they wish. I still don't understand why this is such a big deal? Some of you just want to make people hate the game and others can't accept the fact that it isn't the game for some people or that what they see as wonderous features just aren't appealing in the long term for those people. As long as you get enjoyment out of what you play who really cares?
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Jimmydean

    A big back shell of a dragon has dropped down and has electricity coming out of it. How my planning and coordination are you expecting lol.

    Honestly though I'd you listen to the ANet guy he goes over the different mechanics of the fight. So we really want it scripted like WoW raids where we can track every second of the fight and who should have done what?

    Yes, it's called coordination. Many people enjoy it over a zerg fest where other players could just as easily be NPCs.

     So are you talking about being able to choose who is with you rather than it being public? You can still coordinate if you are on Vent with people but I guess your right thatit's not in a controlled setting.  I rather like this way as it's a little more reaslitic.

    True. I forgot, we're going for realistic while we fight dragons with lightning shooting out their arse.

     Would you not agree that the more scripted and "one sequence to win" a fight is the more redundant it becomes over time?

    Ever done LFR in World of Warcraft?  Yea I kind of prefer having people I know and trust to play with.

     Fair enough.  I would rather have more things to do at one time and have surprises even if it means dying.  I'm more the RPG adventure type though.

  • YakkinYakkin Member Posts: 919
    Originally posted by Jagarid

    But it also is the reason why this is such a contentious issue right now.   In past MMOs, for PVE, the group of people who are hardcore raiders have had a massive influence on the developers in terms of how end game is handled.   Far more influence than the number of hardcore raiders should warrant.  This is, imo, largely due to the subscription model previous MMOs used. Hard core raiders will stick around and continue to sub for a very long time if you keep pumping out new raid "tiers" at a semi-decent rate.

    So if GW2 becomes successful enough that developers start copying it instead of WoW, then the raiders lose their control on the developers since raiding would now only be a minority, and thus not profitable, unlike a sub based model?

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Member Posts: 2,574
    Originally posted by Jimmydean

    So GW2 re-did half of the MMORPG. They changed the level experience from quest grinding, to dynamic event grinding.  But how much time did we really spend leveling? How much fun did you have during the leveling process of most games? Not a lot but thats to be expected comparing to the original MMO's.  As for how much fun?  TONS, its the best part of any game IMO, I recently quit TSW because the endgame sucks and not for a want of things to do its because the game does a 180 and changes to a grindy gear threadmill like all conventional themeparks.  The same for SWTOR, leveling was fun but endgame sucked, same for Rift and yada yada yada.  If I wanted to play a WoW endgame I would go back and play WoW with 8 years of solid content.

    Imagine this. Some people say raiders' are a small population of the playerbase. I say otherwise. And you'd be wrong as statistics show less then 10% of a games population even bother to do raiding, and a much smaller faction will compelte it.  (this is before WoW raid finder which I heard boosted these numbers up but still) Rather than getting rid of "endgame", I say the next truly successful MMORPG will re-do endgame. The next successful MMO has done exactly that, its called GW2 I suggest you watch

    Guild Wars 2 End Game (7.12.12.) Q&A Part 1

    Guild Wars 2 End Game (7.12.12.) Q&A Part 2

     And I don't mean LFR either, that was more like groups in school you never wanted to be a part of but was forced to be. 

    So any input? Maybe GW2 could be the first to do it. it will, People will get bored of DEs eventually Some may but plenty wont in fact if history is any indicator which it inevitably always is then GW2's World will be alive and thriving for a long time to come because the vast majority of gamers much prefer the appeal of leveling and exploring over the grindy nature of dungeon running or gear farming, then what? I won't claim to have the answers. You'd be correct, you have msotly negative opinions and heresay. A lot of people are tired of the current raid system, that doesn't mean they hate raids. Yes it does. 

    Maybe throw around some ideas of how end-game could be redone. Exactly how GW2 is doing it???????

    Theres a reason why GW2 is hyped and is full frontal exceitement because it does everything you want a MMO to do with the added benefit of having the most successful and highly addictive forms of PvP in the genre.  WvW and Arena style combat.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • JagaridJagarid Member UncommonPosts: 415
    Originally posted by Enigmatus
    Originally posted by Jagarid

    But it also is the reason why this is such a contentious issue right now.   In past MMOs, for PVE, the group of people who are hardcore raiders have had a massive influence on the developers in terms of how end game is handled.   Far more influence than the number of hardcore raiders should warrant.  This is, imo, largely due to the subscription model previous MMOs used. Hard core raiders will stick around and continue to sub for a very long time if you keep pumping out new raid "tiers" at a semi-decent rate.

    So if GW2 becomes successful enough that developers start copying it instead of WoW, then the raiders lose their control on the developers since raiding would now only be a minority, and thus not profitable, unlike a sub based model?

    The era of successful sub based games has ended.  WoW is the last of the era.  That was a side note, not the point of what I said.  And raiding has ALWAYS been a minority.  Just an influential minority.

    Of course you probably understood what I was actually saying but are feigning a failure to do so merely because it is easier than accepting the reality that hard core raiders ARE feeling threatened by GW2.  The simple fact that so many are posting in GW2 forums rather than, you know, enjoying the game(s) they like to play certainly would indicate such is true.

  • YakkinYakkin Member Posts: 919
    Originally posted by Jagarid
    Originally posted by Enigmatus
    Originally posted by Jagarid

    But it also is the reason why this is such a contentious issue right now.   In past MMOs, for PVE, the group of people who are hardcore raiders have had a massive influence on the developers in terms of how end game is handled.   Far more influence than the number of hardcore raiders should warrant.  This is, imo, largely due to the subscription model previous MMOs used. Hard core raiders will stick around and continue to sub for a very long time if you keep pumping out new raid "tiers" at a semi-decent rate.

    So if GW2 becomes successful enough that developers start copying it instead of WoW, then the raiders lose their control on the developers since raiding would now only be a minority, and thus not profitable, unlike a sub based model?

    The era of successful sub based games has ended.  WoW is the last of the era.  That was a side note, not the point of what I said.  And raiding has ALWAYS been a minority.  Just an influential minority.

    Of course you probably understood what I was actually saying but are feigning a failure to do so merely because it is easier than accepting the reality that hard core raiders ARE feeling threatened by GW2.  The simple fact that so many are posting in GW2 forums rather than, you know, enjoying the game(s) they like to play certainly would indicate such is true.

    Well I knew they were a minority, and that they are likely threatened, I just needed clarification.

  • Eir_SEir_S Member UncommonPosts: 4,440
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Jimmydean

    A big black shell of a dragon has dropped down and has electricity coming out of it. How much planning and coordination are you expecting lol.

    Honestly though if you listen to the ANet guy he goes over the different mechanics of the fight. Do we really want it scripted like WoW raids where we can track every second of the fight and who should have done what?

    Some people prefer that to realism.  Then again, you're fighting giant dragons, I guess realism isn't part of the picture.  Still, the only thing that makes raids difficult is getting everyone on the same page.  The fights are just memorization, but not everyone remembers what to do.  That, and the bosses have stupid amounts of HP.

    Hardcore raiders are the minority, ANet wants everyone to experience epic battles, not the memory game.

  • JagaridJagarid Member UncommonPosts: 415
    Originally posted by Enigmatus
    Well I knew they were a minority, and that they are likely threatened, I just needed clarification.

    In that case I apologize for assuming you were baiting me!  I thought what I said was clear, but maybe I rambled too much for it to be so. :)

     

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    I'd say a better usage for endgame would be structuring PVE to benefit PVP, and vice versa. SImilar to how Darkness Falls worked in DAOC, which could be hugely expanded on, on both fronts of play.

    Raids that affect wars of attrition, PVP battles that affect PVE effectiveness for better or worse. There are tons of things that could be done with Themepark endgame that greater effect the overall game and those playing it.

    A themepark MMO that stressed first and foremost the MMO part of the equation

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Originally posted by Distopia

    I'd say a better usage for endgame would be structuring PVE to benefit PVP, and vice versa. SImilar to how Darkness Falls worked in DAOC, which could be hugely expanded on, on both fronts of play.

    Raids that affect wars of attrition, PVP battles that affect PVE effectiveness for better or worse. There are tons of things that could be done with Themepark endgame that greater effect the overall game and those playing it.

    A themepark MMO that stressed first and foremost the MMO part of the equation

     This is a great idea and not out of the question with WvW tracking.

    BTW, did you paint those miniatures in your avatar? Really nice detail.

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