Better a B2P with cash shop, than a F2P with a cash shop.
Better a game (be it f2p, b2p, or p2p) that delivers regular content at a rate meeting or surpassing the money involved, and where money cannot provide an advantage over others. The way they get money from us is irrelevant. The value provided to the players is what matters. That the game isn't controlled by those that throw money at it; that everyone has a fair shot, matters. That the game continues to grow and develop and have new content matters.
I'll pay a monthly sub with a cash shop if a game provides me with enough value.
We need to stop the immeidate assumptions that sub=AAA high quality, f2p=cheap asian p2w grinder, whatnot. The lines are blurring, and as time goes by I think we'll see them erased altogether.
I know, I am in a minority, but I would rather pay for a game, pay a sub, and have a non-p2w/cosmetic only cash shop (I would rather no cash shop, but at this point, it almost seems like a fantasy to think that would happen).
I hope GW2s cash shop does not ruin the game for me, I have generally refused to play f2p (I know it is b2p, just making a point) mmos, due to them either being p2w, or the looming threat of them making it p2w, since they shouldn't feel that bound to their players, due to they didn't pay for the game under any terms. I would be really pissed if I put a lot of time into a game, and they made it p2w in a update...So I stay away.
I haven't been paying much attention to GW2, but now that it is getting close to launch, I will have to see what all has changed, and get ready to play it (only played first beta event, after pre-orders started). I am kind of disappointed if their is a 25% run speed buff that someone can buy...That would be pretty significant in WvWvW, I would think...I havent look at the cash shop too much, but if they have gone crazy, or go crazy, the game will go into the trash bin on the computer.
I haven't been paying much attention to GW2, but now that it is getting close to launch, I will have to see what all has changed, and get ready to play it (only played first beta event, after pre-orders started). I am kind of disappointed if their is a 25% run speed buff that someone can buy...That would be pretty significant in WvWvW, I would think...I havent look at the cash shop too much, but if they have gone crazy, or go crazy, the game will go into the trash bin on the computer.
Just to clarify, you can't buy the buff directly from the cash shop. The buff has a chance to drop from a Mystic Chest, which requires a key to unlock. The keys are sold on the cash shop but can also be acquired as drops from mobs and as rewards for quests.
I know, I am in a minority, but I would rather pay for a game, pay a sub, and have a non-p2w/cosmetic only cash shop (I would rather no cash shop, but at this point, it almost seems like a fantasy to think that would happen).
I hope GW2s cash shop does not ruin the game for me, I have generally refused to play f2p (I know it is b2p, just making a point) mmos, due to them either being p2w, or the looming threat of them making it p2w, since they shouldn't feel that bound to their players, due to they didn't pay for the game under any terms. I would be really pissed if I put a lot of time into a game, and they made it p2w in a update...So I stay away.
I haven't been paying much attention to GW2, but now that it is getting close to launch, I will have to see what all has changed, and get ready to play it (only played first beta event, after pre-orders started). I am kind of disappointed if their is a 25% run speed buff that someone can buy...That would be pretty significant in WvWvW, I would think...I havent look at the cash shop too much, but if they have gone crazy, or go crazy, the game will go into the trash bin on the computer.
So far, jury's out on whether the buffs work in WvW (note emphasis). We know the icon is still active, but there's players reporting that they aren't seeing the benefits. There's also a dev post stating that the buffs shouldn't be in WVW.
I will agree that IF the game goes a bad rout, it will change how I feel. but for now, I'm waiting to see how this goes.
I know, I am in a minority, but I would rather pay for a game, pay a sub, and have a non-p2w/cosmetic only cash shop (I would rather no cash shop, but at this point, it almost seems like a fantasy to think that would happen).
I hope GW2s cash shop does not ruin the game for me, I have generally refused to play f2p (I know it is b2p, just making a point) mmos, due to them either being p2w, or the looming threat of them making it p2w, since they shouldn't feel that bound to their players, due to they didn't pay for the game under any terms. I would be really pissed if I put a lot of time into a game, and they made it p2w in a update...So I stay away.
I haven't been paying much attention to GW2, but now that it is getting close to launch, I will have to see what all has changed, and get ready to play it (only played first beta event, after pre-orders started). I am kind of disappointed if their is a 25% run speed buff that someone can buy...That would be pretty significant in WvWvW, I would think...I havent look at the cash shop too much, but if they have gone crazy, or go crazy, the game will go into the trash bin on the computer.
So far, jury's out on whether the buffs work in WvW (note emphasis). We know the icon is still active, but there's players reporting that they aren't seeing the benefits. There's also a dev post stating that the buffs shouldn't be in WVW.
I will agree that IF the game goes a bad rout, it will change how I feel. but for now, I'm waiting to see how this goes.
Stress test in 5 minutes. Let's check it and report here
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I know, I am in a minority, but I would rather pay for a game, pay a sub, and have a non-p2w/cosmetic only cash shop (I would rather no cash shop, but at this point, it almost seems like a fantasy to think that would happen).
I hope GW2s cash shop does not ruin the game for me, I have generally refused to play f2p (I know it is b2p, just making a point) mmos, due to them either being p2w, or the looming threat of them making it p2w, since they shouldn't feel that bound to their players, due to they didn't pay for the game under any terms. I would be really pissed if I put a lot of time into a game, and they made it p2w in a update...So I stay away.
I haven't been paying much attention to GW2, but now that it is getting close to launch, I will have to see what all has changed, and get ready to play it (only played first beta event, after pre-orders started). I am kind of disappointed if their is a 25% run speed buff that someone can buy...That would be pretty significant in WvWvW, I would think...I havent look at the cash shop too much, but if they have gone crazy, or go crazy, the game will go into the trash bin on the computer.
So far, jury's out on whether the buffs work in WvW (note emphasis). We know the icon is still active, but there's players reporting that they aren't seeing the benefits. There's also a dev post stating that the buffs shouldn't be in WVW.
I will agree that IF the game goes a bad rout, it will change how I feel. but for now, I'm waiting to see how this goes.
Stress test in 5 minutes. Let's check it and report here
I wish. If I A) had boosts on my toons and wasn't working for another 2 hours. If I get time to sneak in before it's over I will, but not counting on it.
I haven't been paying much attention to GW2, but now that it is getting close to launch, I will have to see what all has changed, and get ready to play it (only played first beta event, after pre-orders started). I am kind of disappointed if their is a 25% run speed buff that someone can buy...That would be pretty significant in WvWvW, I would think...I havent look at the cash shop too much, but if they have gone crazy, or go crazy, the game will go into the trash bin on the computer.
Just to clarify, you can't buy the buff directly from the cash shop. The buff has a chance to drop from a Mystic Chest, which requires a key to unlock. The keys are sold on the cash shop but can also be acquired as drops from mobs and as rewards for quests.
OK, thanks. I was hoping that they didn't sneak stuff like that in, since I haven't been paying much attention. Been playing TSW, so I got some reading to do, to figure out what I want to start out playing. I wasn't too overwhelmed by the ranger/necro when I tried them out, but it could of just been I needed to get use to the game more.
ya, as in things that are cosmetic and dont affect the gameplay, like armor sets and weapons would, or even potions etc. WoW doesnt have those things. and its not even a 'cash shop' in the sense that most people here are talking about, where you can access it from your game screen. you have to literally go to their website manually to purchase those things. so im not defending WoW but that is a big difference, they dont have an in-game 'cash shop' like what these other posters are referring to.
Originally posted by Brenacus ya, as in things that are cosmetic and dont affect the gameplay, like armor sets and weapons would, or even potions etc. WoW doesnt have those things. and its not even a 'cash shop' in the sense that most people here are talking about, where you can access it from your game screen. you have to literally go to their website manually to purchase those things. so im not defending WoW but that is a big difference, they dont have an in-game 'cash shop' like what these other posters are referring to.
Semantics at best. A chas shop is still a cash shop, even if you can't access it from in game.
Oh, and funny thing. There's a mini-pet combat system coming in MoP....and look, Blizzard has cash-shop exclusive pets! I'm not saying they will have any sort of edge over other pets, but if they DO...isn't that p2W? (DISCLAIMER: I am not accusing WoW of P2W, only speculating that it might be possible. I actually think it highly unlikely)
For the record, I'm not trying to bash WoW any more than you're trying to defend it. But the fact remains that Blizzard has a store, in which you can use real life funds to purchase goods and services within the game. They have an online shop..where you use cash. A Cash Shop. Period.
Originally posted by laokoko I think we are getting to a point every game have a cashshop. Or at least almost. What really comes down to is how controversial the cashshop is.
Yeah, thats why I don't even list a bought sub game, without a cash shop as a preference anymore...I just don't want something that is p2w.
When you are against one particular system, it's binary but when put side by side and presented back to you, now there's way too many variables and it's being oversimplified. Seems a double-standard of sorts.
It was oversimplified because it fit your argument better to present it as such. No other reason.
In A it's still your choice whether you pay or not. No one forces you to sub. And then guess what happens when you pay the sub fee? You get unlimited access to all the features of the game.
That simply isn't true for the majority of subscription MMOs out there.
I know... "but expansions are different because they are bigger."
Expansions are a whole different can of worms. With a sub model, I mean that you get access to every aspect that you paid for with the initial box price. You know the difference between the two.
"the evidence is available to see in every successful cash shop that currently exists"
I was expecting something a bit better than "just look around you!"
I gave examples of specific games with successful cash shops that have expanded since their inception.
In closing: "This isn't a sub vs CS thing."
Actually, it is. It's convenient for your argument (and for marketing) to call it B2P because the term sits nicely with people.
Nope. I never brought subs up once in my original argument. I was simply pointing out which arguments that were pro cash shop do not work for me. You were the one that made this into a sub vs CS argument.
If this game was made by an indie company without a major brand or IP attached to it, would you be upset about the cash shop or wondering why they're charging for a box for a F2P game?
Yes. In my original statement, right at the very beginning, I made it very clear (or so I thought) that I don't like cash shops of any type in any game, and that this was not a post specific to GW2.
So let me point this out again: I'm not trashing GW2. I don't like the cash shop for any game, and less so in games that I'm paying a box price for. I don't think the existence of the cash shop reflects poorly on this particular game, however that doesn't change my opinion of the shop itself.
A 25% runspeed boost really is P2W. Any stat boost is P2W... If they sell things like that in the CS it is very disappointing. And what will be for sale later? 3-6 months after release?
IMO, a CS that is selling boosts is not OK in a B2P game. The game should be free in that case. Or the CS should only offer cosmetics..
A 25% runspeed boost really is P2W. Any stat boost is P2W... If they sell things like that in the CS it is very disappointing. And what will be for sale later? 3-6 months after release?
IMO, a CS that is selling boosts is not OK in a B2P game. The game should be free in that case. Or the CS should only offer cosmetics..
They don't sale those kinds of boost in the cash shop though. They sell Mystic Keys that open Mystic Chests, with a chance to get those boost. Yet the thing is that anyone playing the game has a chance to get those boosts, because playing the game regularly will grant you chances to acquire mystic keys without the cash shop involved.
A 25% runspeed boost really is P2W. Any stat boost is P2W... If they sell things like that in the CS it is very disappointing. And what will be for sale later? 3-6 months after release?
IMO, a CS that is selling boosts is not OK in a B2P game. The game should be free in that case. Or the CS should only offer cosmetics..
A 25% runspeed boost really is P2W. Any stat boost is P2W... If they sell things like that in the CS it is very disappointing. And what will be for sale later? 3-6 months after release?
IMO, a CS that is selling boosts is not OK in a B2P game. The game should be free in that case. Or the CS should only offer cosmetics..
You should write angry letters to Blizzard. CS + Sub + Box price. It's simple unacceptable but here we are. 9 million strong.
Don't tell me refer a friend isn't paying to win. I have a few wow friends who are willing to buy a second useles account JUST to level up a panda monk faster.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
This shows the sea change that is occurring in MMO’s. Posters on here are defending P2W boosts as ‘only in PvE’ ‘only a random chance’.
If you get to top level quicker, you are that much better in PvP, so PvE boosts are P2W.
We used to argue about whether cosmetic cash shops were a bad thing. Now we are arguing about whether PvE boosts are a bad thing. Every couple of years I see this, one hallmark of a good MMO after another being removed from the genre.
This shows the sea change that is occurring in MMO’s. Posters on here are defending P2W boosts as ‘only in PvE’ ‘only a random chance’.
If you get to top level quicker, you are that much better in PvP, so PvE boosts are P2W.
We used to argue about whether cosmetic cash shops were a bad thing. Now we are arguing about whether PvE boosts are a bad thing. Every couple of years I see this, one hallmark of a good MMO after another being removed from the genre.
Just let the company make some freaking money in some way without whining about it.
Somewhere somehow someone needs to throw them a post release bone to keep things going.
Also by your sentiment this means the game is Pay 2 Win for the first 2 weeks. I would comment about accessibility of the buffs and that coordination of lower level players in WvW will be better but I am guessing you'll wriggle out of that one. So the game is Pay 2 win for about 2 weeks in which people leveling without buffs will easily be making level 80. This is boardering on the ridiculous.
This shows the sea change that is occurring in MMO’s. Posters on here are defending P2W boosts as ‘only in PvE’ ‘only a random chance’.
If you get to top level quicker, you are that much better in PvP, so PvE boosts are P2W.
We used to argue about whether cosmetic cash shops were a bad thing. Now we are arguing about whether PvE boosts are a bad thing. Every couple of years I see this, one hallmark of a good MMO after another being removed from the genre.
No you are not in sPVP, you already have access to everything from level 1, there is absolutely no advantage.
As for WvW
You are also boosted to max level and levels above 30 don't give much even there, arguably before 30 you don't have access to elite/utility skills that can have a larger effect in combat. Still, in a large scale fight being a little higher level won't amount to anything. The only kind of PVP those boosts might have made a difference is sPVP, but since they don't work there the argument is invalid
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
In A it's still your choice whether you pay or not. No one forces you to sub. And then guess what happens when you pay the sub fee? You get unlimited access to all the features of the game.
That simply isn't true for the majority of subscription MMOs out there.
I know... "but expansions are different because they are bigger."
Expansions are a whole different can of worms. With a sub model, I mean that you get access to every aspect that you paid for with the initial box price. You know the difference between the two.
So if the cash shop items were added after release, you'd be ok with the cash shop? You don't see how a lot of this is just rationalization, rygard? There is no difference between an expansion pack and a cash shop other than the a la cart nature of the latter, however one you are universally opposed to and the other one is fine.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This shows the sea change that is occurring in MMO’s. Posters on here are defending P2W boosts as ‘only in PvE’ ‘only a random chance’.
If you get to top level quicker, you are that much better in PvP, so PvE boosts are P2W.
We used to argue about whether cosmetic cash shops were a bad thing. Now we are arguing about whether PvE boosts are a bad thing. Every couple of years I see this, one hallmark of a good MMO after another being removed from the genre.
Personally I don´t like the mystic chests at all.
But since the keys drop in game as well as you can buy them it aint a big issue unless you find 20 chests for every key or something annoying like that.
I personally plan to use both the keys and chest to aquire gold, I sell the keys to people who don´t want to buy items (dropped key mind you, and not cheap) and I sell the chests to the losers buying keys for real money.
Most of the stuff in those chests are worthless anyways so it is a good option to get gold from powerlevelers and similar people.
Comments
Better a game (be it f2p, b2p, or p2p) that delivers regular content at a rate meeting or surpassing the money involved, and where money cannot provide an advantage over others. The way they get money from us is irrelevant. The value provided to the players is what matters. That the game isn't controlled by those that throw money at it; that everyone has a fair shot, matters. That the game continues to grow and develop and have new content matters.
I'll pay a monthly sub with a cash shop if a game provides me with enough value.
We need to stop the immeidate assumptions that sub=AAA high quality, f2p=cheap asian p2w grinder, whatnot. The lines are blurring, and as time goes by I think we'll see them erased altogether.
I know, I am in a minority, but I would rather pay for a game, pay a sub, and have a non-p2w/cosmetic only cash shop (I would rather no cash shop, but at this point, it almost seems like a fantasy to think that would happen).
I hope GW2s cash shop does not ruin the game for me, I have generally refused to play f2p (I know it is b2p, just making a point) mmos, due to them either being p2w, or the looming threat of them making it p2w, since they shouldn't feel that bound to their players, due to they didn't pay for the game under any terms. I would be really pissed if I put a lot of time into a game, and they made it p2w in a update...So I stay away.
I haven't been paying much attention to GW2, but now that it is getting close to launch, I will have to see what all has changed, and get ready to play it (only played first beta event, after pre-orders started). I am kind of disappointed if their is a 25% run speed buff that someone can buy...That would be pretty significant in WvWvW, I would think...I havent look at the cash shop too much, but if they have gone crazy, or go crazy, the game will go into the trash bin on the computer.
Just to clarify, you can't buy the buff directly from the cash shop. The buff has a chance to drop from a Mystic Chest, which requires a key to unlock. The keys are sold on the cash shop but can also be acquired as drops from mobs and as rewards for quests.
So far, jury's out on whether the buffs work in WvW (note emphasis). We know the icon is still active, but there's players reporting that they aren't seeing the benefits. There's also a dev post stating that the buffs shouldn't be in WVW.
I will agree that IF the game goes a bad rout, it will change how I feel. but for now, I'm waiting to see how this goes.
Stress test in 5 minutes. Let's check it and report here
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I wish. If I A) had boosts on my toons and
wasn't working for another 2 hours. If I get time to sneak in before it's over I will, but not counting on it.
OK, thanks. I was hoping that they didn't sneak stuff like that in, since I haven't been paying much attention. Been playing TSW, so I got some reading to do, to figure out what I want to start out playing. I wasn't too overwhelmed by the ranger/necro when I tried them out, but it could of just been I needed to get use to the game more.
Semantics at best. A chas shop is still a cash shop, even if you can't access it from in game.
Oh, and funny thing. There's a mini-pet combat system coming in MoP....and look, Blizzard has cash-shop exclusive pets! I'm not saying they will have any sort of edge over other pets, but if they DO...isn't that p2W? (DISCLAIMER: I am not accusing WoW of P2W, only speculating that it might be possible. I actually think it highly unlikely)
For the record, I'm not trying to bash WoW any more than you're trying to defend it. But the fact remains that Blizzard has a store, in which you can use real life funds to purchase goods and services within the game. They have an online shop..where you use cash. A Cash Shop. Period.
Yeah, thats why I don't even list a bought sub game, without a cash shop as a preference anymore...I just don't want something that is p2w.
I gave examples of specific games with successful cash shops that have expanded since their inception.
Nope. I never brought subs up once in my original argument. I was simply pointing out which arguments that were pro cash shop do not work for me. You were the one that made this into a sub vs CS argument.
Yes. In my original statement, right at the very beginning, I made it very clear (or so I thought) that I don't like cash shops of any type in any game, and that this was not a post specific to GW2.
So let me point this out again: I'm not trashing GW2. I don't like the cash shop for any game, and less so in games that I'm paying a box price for. I don't think the existence of the cash shop reflects poorly on this particular game, however that doesn't change my opinion of the shop itself.
TSW is buy to play plus a 15 euro monthly fee and a cash shop!
So yeah it's acceptable... I think...
A 25% runspeed boost really is P2W. Any stat boost is P2W... If they sell things like that in the CS it is very disappointing. And what will be for sale later? 3-6 months after release?
IMO, a CS that is selling boosts is not OK in a B2P game. The game should be free in that case. Or the CS should only offer cosmetics..
They don't sale those kinds of boost in the cash shop though. They sell Mystic Keys that open Mystic Chests, with a chance to get those boost. Yet the thing is that anyone playing the game has a chance to get those boosts, because playing the game regularly will grant you chances to acquire mystic keys without the cash shop involved.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/view/forums/thread/360701/To-clairify-Black-Lion-chest-buffs.html
Boosts cannot be used in PVP
Boosts cannot be bought directly, you first need to find a chest, buy a key and there is a random chance to gain the boost you want
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
You should write angry letters to Blizzard. CS + Sub + Box price. It's simple unacceptable but here we are. 9 million strong.
Don't tell me refer a friend isn't paying to win. I have a few wow friends who are willing to buy a second useles account JUST to level up a panda monk faster.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
I am going to quote this for double emphasis! THESE CAN NOT BE USED IN ANY PVP BE IT sPVP or WvW!
also its a 10% speed buff the 25% is mislabeled (I think)
This shows the sea change that is occurring in MMO’s. Posters on here are defending P2W boosts as ‘only in PvE’ ‘only a random chance’.
If you get to top level quicker, you are that much better in PvP, so PvE boosts are P2W.
We used to argue about whether cosmetic cash shops were a bad thing. Now we are arguing about whether PvE boosts are a bad thing. Every couple of years I see this, one hallmark of a good MMO after another being removed from the genre.
Just let the company make some freaking money in some way without whining about it.
Somewhere somehow someone needs to throw them a post release bone to keep things going.
Also by your sentiment this means the game is Pay 2 Win for the first 2 weeks. I would comment about accessibility of the buffs and that coordination of lower level players in WvW will be better but I am guessing you'll wriggle out of that one. So the game is Pay 2 win for about 2 weeks in which people leveling without buffs will easily be making level 80. This is boardering on the ridiculous.
No you are not in sPVP, you already have access to everything from level 1, there is absolutely no advantage.
As for WvW
You are also boosted to max level and levels above 30 don't give much even there, arguably before 30 you don't have access to elite/utility skills that can have a larger effect in combat. Still, in a large scale fight being a little higher level won't amount to anything. The only kind of PVP those boosts might have made a difference is sPVP, but since they don't work there the argument is invalid
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
And that assumption is long. Nowadays almost every MMO got a Cash Shop. Independent from being F2P, P2P or B2P.
Just look around.
Wow - Cash Shop
TSW - Cash Shop
Eve - Cash Shop
So the question is much more, can we accept a cash shop? and when yes, what kind of cash shop is acceptable.
So if the cash shop items were added after release, you'd be ok with the cash shop? You don't see how a lot of this is just rationalization, rygard? There is no difference between an expansion pack and a cash shop other than the a la cart nature of the latter, however one you are universally opposed to and the other one is fine.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
the discusion ends on the 1st reply lol ..!
Personally I don´t like the mystic chests at all.
But since the keys drop in game as well as you can buy them it aint a big issue unless you find 20 chests for every key or something annoying like that.
I personally plan to use both the keys and chest to aquire gold, I sell the keys to people who don´t want to buy items (dropped key mind you, and not cheap) and I sell the chests to the losers buying keys for real money.
Most of the stuff in those chests are worthless anyways so it is a good option to get gold from powerlevelers and similar people.