There isn't anything that could be considered pay to win by any sane person. The ability to sell gems for gold and vice versa won't change anything except to eliminate gold farming spambots, which are quite rampant in TSW for example.
Are you saying TSW has gold farmers or spam bots? There is not a single one and never has been. Stop commenting about a game you've never played.
Exp and especially drop rate boosts and +damage ARE pay to win by many people. When is +damage NOT pay to win? You guys are just trying to convince yourselves otherwise.
Furthermore, the fact that you can buy gems for gold is INSTANTLY pay to win since you can buy gems, sell them, and then buy whatever you want in the game.
First off yes TSW has Pax spammers. I have recived no less then 1 day in my mailbox when I was playing and if you stand around Agartha and are able to filter out the LFG spam (lol dont even get me started on how terrible that is) you ill read spammers spamming selling Pax every few minutes. So dont try and play off that TSW is immuine from it either.
THERE IS NO +DAMAGE BOOSTS YOU CAN BUY IN THE GEM SHOP.
Furthermore the fact that you can buy gems for gold is INSTANTLY "PAY FOR CONVIENCE" You can not buy power items and even though you can buy Karma and exp boosts none of that will you a statistical advantage in the game since the stats all plataeu at a certain point and everyone will eventually have the same amount of stats to play around with.
I think you dont understand what P2W is. Pay to win is buying items that give you a statistical advantage. An example is if I can buy a sword with +40 power and deals 100-200 damage and the highest model sword that can be found in the game is +20 power and 50-100 damage. So stop with the wrong definitions that are not true.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what pay to win is. Pay to win is when you MUST pay to access endgame power. It is not pay to win when you have a reasonable path to such power within the free to play ( or b2p) rules of the game. I may be distasteful to many for the option to exist, and it is certainly not the same thing as only selling cosmetic items. Being able to buy power that is otherwise available in the game is not pay to win, it is something in between. perhaps we should call it "pay to keep up". Both camps should realize though that p2kup does cross the line for some folks. Where you draw the line is a choice however.
The best example of pay to win that I can think of right now is Vanguard's item unlock scheme. In Vanguard's free to play now you are strictly limited from using higher quality items without paying. You must either be subscribed or you must buy and item unlock. This is clearly pay to win because it specifically effects the "Best" items and there is no non-paying way around it. While you are leveling this may not be a big thing as you will replace your stuff often. But once characters reach level cap and gear up for the hardest challenges in the game they will not be able to do so without paying a sub or buying unlocks. Paying to use the best drops is functionally equivalent to simply buying those items from a cash shop. You just have two steps instead of one to go though. But that is real pay to win. When you have to pay to access the highest levels of progression in a game, how ever that game defines progression. In most mmos the progression is access to the level cap and then a process of item progression though group content.
At the other end of the spectrum would be TSW's shop. Truly only vanity items. Clothes, titles, vanity pets and such. Now as to the question of if they should have a vanity shop with a sub is a whole other thing. But clearly nothing in the shop can be seen as crossing any lines. It is not only in no way pay to win but it is also not even pay to effect game play in any mechanical fashion.
Some where in between is GW2. Buying boosts does impact game play but can it be regarded as paying to win? No because you not getting access to anything that everyone else doesn't already have access to. Those other people simply need to play the game more to get to the same thing. So I buy the multi booster pack and I get 50% more exp, karma and magic items for 1 hour. But my friend doesn't buy the pack so he has to play 1hr and 30 minute to get the same progress and on the average the same amount of drops and other rewards. So we both progress the same amount for the night but I am out a few bucks by my choice and he has to take a chance at 50% more wife aggro. No advantage in the game either way, just a shifting of the time frames on how fast you get somewhere.
Selling Gems are also not pay to win. In fact it largely facilitates access to pay items for non-paying players thus leveling the field in that regard. Again, one person pays real money to buy gems then sells them to someone else in game for coins. Well getting coins is simply a matter of taking the time to do it. you spend X hours farming enough coins to buy Y gems. Or you can spend time outside the game working a job so you can buy Y gems for Z dollars. Time converts to money (real or virtual) going either way. So the choice is yours. Someone who doesnt make much at their RL job might find their time better and more enjoyable spent farming coins in the game. Others of us have really good jobs and can buy days worth of farmed coins for what we can make at work in hours or even minutes. So it can make more sense to "Farm" your coins that way. Again this is really only a shifting of time frames. I may not be able to spend as much time in game getting ahead. Is it fair that someone else who has a lot of free time on their hands can get ahead by spending more time in game? Ideally we should all get ahead in games by playing with more skill and neither time spent farming or some cash paid equals skill. So really, it shouldn't matter if someone decides to use cash to replace time spent in game or to spend time in game to get something that saves them cash.
The only thing I have seen that makes me a bit concerned are the chests and the shop sold keys. Yeah you can get keys in game but there certainly are a lot less keys than chests. Fortunately two thing mitigate. First keys can be bought with in game cash by way of gem exchange. Second, the chests have very little interesting in them that I have found so far. Usually free boosters and other consumables. We will see how often actual items get dropped from them but it doesn't seem to be much right now. So while the only item that I think is questionable is keys I am really not worried about them. Not really a game breaking thing. If I had my choice however, I would have the keys sold directly in game from a vendor though, as well as from the cash shop.
Can't remember the last time that this GW2 community hasn't gone 2 days without a new cash shop thread. Must we always have the obligatory cash shop thread?
Well, gems can only be created with real money. You can sell gems on the AH, which means people can buy them on the AH. Someone has to first pay real money for them and then put them up, however.
You cannot sell gems on the AH, players CANNOT influence the price of gems directly
You're a bit misinformed bud.
The way the gems network works, is that real money generates the supply of gems. In-game gold generates the demand. When you buy gems (from the cash shop) using ingame gold, it actually can have an influence in the price of gems (from ingame currency). Real-cash will always be fixed, but the exchange rate (ingame gold -> gems) fluxtuates depending on how many people are trying to buy gems.
It functions a lot like how a real economy works.
- Btw, as has been mentioned, there isn't an actual 'auction house' in this game, transactions are linked between the trading post & the gem store. You could think of it like a stock market in a way.
Wasn't expecting a 2 page protracted discussion, but thanks for the replies to the question.
TSW likely has gold sellers but they aren't particularly noticeable. Never received an email, a tell and don't recall ever seeing spam in a zone or Agartha. It's also not a topic on any of the TSW forums I read. So, yeah, they probably exist but don't appear to have a very visible presence in the game.
Well you know and they know (even if they won't admit it) that because you earned the Oscar and they bought it, you are the real winner - and you didn't have to "Pay to Win" - you just are a Winner.
Let that be enough
Grrr...okay fine, you've swayed me. For now lol . I'm sure I'll get worked up about microtransactions in the future.
Just think how satisfying it will be to destroy some fool or fools in WvW that are higher level than you cause they used boosts in PvE.
Every time you hit "F" over their corpse to finish them off, in your mind you can LOL at their wasted $ (and then realize also that every dime they spent helps Anet and helps make GW2 an even better game.)
Then you REALLY realize that it really is pay for EVERYONE to win in the end!
Because in WvW if you lose a fight, it's very much more than likely that you lost because they had more players, better skills, better coordination, or some combination of the 3 than it is EVER going to be that they had a 10% bonus on you.
They say you don't play the game...you play the man. And you sir, are very good at this. You basically knew exactly what to say to win me over lol .
And I also completely agree about WvW. WvW is definitely not about gear or really even player skill. It's more about organization and coordination. Strategy trumps tactics and skill.
The flipside to that would be the guy who spends his money on that epic cow finisher. Every time he hits F on you, and drops a cow's arse on your face, you'll remember that he spent real money on that. And while you can plant a flag in his chest, nothing is more humiliating than being sat on by a cow. He will have just p2w your pride.
Originally posted by Master10K Can't remember the last time that this GW2 community hasn't gone 2 days without a new cash shop thread. Must we always have the obligatory cash shop thread?
Well you know and they know (even if they won't admit it) that because you earned the Oscar and they bought it, you are the real winner - and you didn't have to "Pay to Win" - you just are a Winner.
Let that be enough
Grrr...okay fine, you've swayed me. For now lol . I'm sure I'll get worked up about microtransactions in the future.
Just think how satisfying it will be to destroy some fool or fools in WvW that are higher level than you cause they used boosts in PvE.
Every time you hit "F" over their corpse to finish them off, in your mind you can LOL at their wasted $ (and then realize also that every dime they spent helps Anet and helps make GW2 an even better game.)
Then you REALLY realize that it really is pay for EVERYONE to win in the end!
Because in WvW if you lose a fight, it's very much more than likely that you lost because they had more players, better skills, better coordination, or some combination of the 3 than it is EVER going to be that they had a 10% bonus on you.
They say you don't play the game...you play the man. And you sir, are very good at this. You basically knew exactly what to say to win me over lol .
And I also completely agree about WvW. WvW is definitely not about gear or really even player skill. It's more about organization and coordination. Strategy trumps tactics and skill.
The flipside to that would be the guy who spends his money on that epic cow finisher. Every time he hits F on you, and drops a cow's arse on your face, you'll remember that he spent real money on that. And while you can plant a flag in his chest, nothing is more humiliating than being sat on by a cow. He will have just p2w your pride.
Bovine teabagging. Not really p2w but it does cross some kind of a line somewhere.
Wasn't expecting a 2 page protracted discussion, but thanks for the replies to the question.
TSW likely has gold sellers but they aren't particularly noticeable. Never received an email, a tell and don't recall ever seeing spam in a zone or Agartha. It's also not a topic on any of the TSW forums I read. So, yeah, they probably exist but don't appear to have a very visible presence in the game.
All you have to do is mention GW2 and you are guaranteed a minimum of 465 posts and/or a thread lock.
Wasn't expecting a 2 page protracted discussion, but thanks for the replies to the question.
TSW likely has gold sellers but they aren't particularly noticeable. Never received an email, a tell and don't recall ever seeing spam in a zone or Agartha. It's also not a topic on any of the TSW forums I read. So, yeah, they probably exist but don't appear to have a very visible presence in the game.
All you have to do is mention GW2 and you are guaranteed a minimum of 465 posts and/or a thread lock.
Enjoy and gratz in the thread!!
LOL!! I'll definitely have to be more careful about this forum in the future.
There isn't anything that could be considered pay to win by any sane person. The ability to sell gems for gold and vice versa won't change anything except to eliminate gold farming spambots, which are quite rampant in TSW for example.
Are you saying TSW has gold farmers or spam bots? There is not a single one and never has been. Stop commenting about a game you've never played.
Exp and especially drop rate boosts and +damage ARE pay to win by many people. When is +damage NOT pay to win? You guys are just trying to convince yourselves otherwise.
Furthermore, the fact that you can buy gems for gold is INSTANTLY pay to win since you can buy gems, sell them, and then buy whatever you want in the game.
First off yes TSW has Pax spammers. I have recived no less then 1 day in my mailbox when I was playing and if you stand around Agartha and are able to filter out the LFG spam (lol dont even get me started on how terrible that is) you ill read spammers spamming selling Pax every few minutes. So dont try and play off that TSW is immuine from it either.
THERE IS NO +DAMAGE BOOSTS YOU CAN BUY IN THE GEM SHOP.
Furthermore the fact that you can buy gems for gold is INSTANTLY "PAY FOR CONVIENCE" You can not buy power items and even though you can buy Karma and exp boosts none of that will you a statistical advantage in the game since the stats all plataeu at a certain point and everyone will eventually have the same amount of stats to play around with.
I think you dont understand what P2W is. Pay to win is buying items that give you a statistical advantage. An example is if I can buy a sword with +40 power and deals 100-200 damage and the highest model sword that can be found in the game is +20 power and 50-100 damage. So stop with the wrong definitions that are not true.
What if your guild is trying and trying to beat a world boss, Then the gm says I have 50 mystic chest. "I'm going to buy 50 keys." The gm then gives the guildies 35 boosts. The guild then beats the boss. Did they just pay to win?
Please don't say no one will do that. I've seen guilds advertising 1000$ budgets.
There isn't anything that could be considered pay to win by any sane person. The ability to sell gems for gold and vice versa won't change anything except to eliminate gold farming spambots, which are quite rampant in TSW for example.
Are you saying TSW has gold farmers or spam bots? There is not a single one and never has been. Stop commenting about a game you've never played.
Exp and especially drop rate boosts and +damage ARE pay to win by many people. When is +damage NOT pay to win? You guys are just trying to convince yourselves otherwise.
Furthermore, the fact that you can buy gems for gold is INSTANTLY pay to win since you can buy gems, sell them, and then buy whatever you want in the game.
First off yes TSW has Pax spammers. I have recived no less then 1 day in my mailbox when I was playing and if you stand around Agartha and are able to filter out the LFG spam (lol dont even get me started on how terrible that is) you ill read spammers spamming selling Pax every few minutes. So dont try and play off that TSW is immuine from it either.
THERE IS NO +DAMAGE BOOSTS YOU CAN BUY IN THE GEM SHOP.
Furthermore the fact that you can buy gems for gold is INSTANTLY "PAY FOR CONVIENCE" You can not buy power items and even though you can buy Karma and exp boosts none of that will you a statistical advantage in the game since the stats all plataeu at a certain point and everyone will eventually have the same amount of stats to play around with.
I think you dont understand what P2W is. Pay to win is buying items that give you a statistical advantage. An example is if I can buy a sword with +40 power and deals 100-200 damage and the highest model sword that can be found in the game is +20 power and 50-100 damage. So stop with the wrong definitions that are not true.
What if your guild is trying and trying to beat a world boss, Then the gm says I have 50 mystic chest. "I'm going to buy 50 keys." The gm then gives the guildies 35 boosts. The guild then beats the boss. Did they just pay to win?
Please don't say no one will do that. I've seen guilds advertising 1000$ budgets.
Nope because the items found on that Dragon boss do not give anyone who beats it a statistical advantage over me. If that dragon dropped the equivalant of "WoW Heroic Loot" with higher item level then hell yes its "Pay to Win" but since it doesnt it isnt.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
What if your guild is trying and trying to beat a world boss, Then the gm says I have 50 mystic chest. "I'm going to buy 50 keys." The gm then gives the guildies 35 boosts. The guild then beats the boss. Did they just pay to win?
Please don't say no one will do that. I've seen guilds advertising 1000$ budgets.
No, they paid to cheapen the experience.
Frankly, if a guild wants to buy a crapton of boosts with real money, just so they can beat a boss slightly fast or get slightly more exp / karma than the rest of the server, then power to them (but they would be idiots).
Furthermore, defeating a world boss (or even a dungeon boss) doesn't necessarily give you power. There is a hard cap on lvl 80 gear, with which all gear tops off at (even some of the more common lvl 80 gear). If you got to 80, and had enough karma, you could just go buy the best gear in the game from a WvW vendor. It probably won't look as kool as that armor piece you just got from a dungeon, world boss, or pvp match, but it'll be statistically equal.
That's how they've advertised it all along, and that's how it works. Yes, you can pay to have an advantage in time (lvling faster, gaining karma faster). This is mostly meant for players who have more money than time, but it can be used by players who have both time and money.
That's not what P2W means, and you know it. Now can you stop polluting our threads and go back to the game you are supposedly enjoying. TSW is online last i checked.
What if your guild is trying and trying to beat a world boss, Then the gm says I have 50 mystic chest. "I'm going to buy 50 keys." The gm then gives the guildies 35 boosts. The guild then beats the boss. Did they just pay to win?
Please don't say no one will do that. I've seen guilds advertising 1000$ budgets.
No, they paid to cheapen the experience.
Frankly, if a guild wants to buy a crapton of boosts with real money, just so they can beat a boss slightly fast or get slightly more exp / karma than the rest of the server, then power to them (but they would be idiots).
Furthermore, defeating a world boss (or even a dungeon boss) doesn't necessarily give you power. There is a hard cap on lvl 80 gear, with which all gear tops off at (even some of the more common lvl 80 gear). If you got to 80, and had enough karma, you could just go buy the best gear in the game from a WvW vendor. It probably won't look as kool as that armor piece you just got from a dungeon, world boss, or pvp match, but it'll be statistically equal.
That's how they've advertised it all along, and that's how it works. Yes, you can pay to have an advantage in time (lvling faster, gaining karma faster). This is mostly meant for players who have more money than time, but it can be used by players who have both time and money.
That's not what P2W means, and you know it. Now can you stop polluting our threads and go back to the game you are supposedly enjoying. TSW is online last i checked.
By the very definition of defeating, they just payed to win.
defeating present participle of de·feat (Verb)
Win a victory over (someone) in a battle or other contest; overcome or beat.
This is a strawman, I know, one that will come to life though. Maybe the question should be "Can you pay to win in GW2?"
I don't think the reward is relevant in this context of conversation. We are talking about defeating an encounter with boost that was preciously beatable.
Originally posted by Psychow P2W isn't limited to PvP. If the scenario happend like in bcbully's example, I'd consider that P2W.
How?
What item from that Dragon Boss in Bcbully's description can a gem buyer gain that I cannot through conventional means? What item from that Dragon Boss has higher damage values or higher armor rating or gives his higher stats then what I can gain just doing a normal dynamic event or a random drop. The difference is stat distribution and looks.
lets play a hypothetical game: 2 images one normal drop one boss drop.
Normal Drop ITEM
Item gained from Dragon Boss
both items deal 100-200 damage, have the same value of stats (i.e. 30 power, 30 condition damage, 30 vitality on the first and 60 condition damage and 30 vitality on the boss drop)
Both items are statistical twins, in other words they are both the same item level in WoW terminology. One is generalized and the other is more specificily tuned to a condition spec.
One looks plain, the other looks badass, neither will give anyone a statistical advantage over someone else but will allow someone to be more specialized and the other more generalized.
Nothing is P2W here.
I'll stop typing in annoying single sentence paragraphs now.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Originally posted by sammyeli Arguing with bcbully and some of the other trolls is like wrestling with a pig in mud, after a few GOs at it you realize they like it.
Yeah, I wish we had another "There's no endgame" thread, this one is getting boring.
For the 100th time, I'm buying the game. I like the Spvp setup.
I didn't start this thread. I do however have serious issue with this cash shop. Am I not allowed to take part in the discussion about the cash shop?
froums 101 - When all else fails call the guy a troll?
Originally posted by Psychow P2W isn't limited to PvP. If the scenario happend like in bcbully's example, I'd consider that P2W.
How?
What item from that Dragon Boss in Bcbully's description can a gem buyer gain that I cannot through conventional means? What item from that Dragon Boss has higher damage values or higher armor rating or gives his higher stats then what I can gain just doing a normal dynamic event or a random drop. The difference is stat distribution and looks.
both items deal 100-200 damage, have the same value of stats (i.e. 30 power, 30 condition damage, 30 vitality on the first and 60 condition damage and 30 vitality on the boss drop)
Both items are statistical twins, in other words they are both the same item level in WoW terminology. One is generalized and the other is more specificily tuned to a condition spec.
One looks plain, the other looks badass, neither will give anyone a statistical advantage over someone else but will allow someone to be more specialized and the other more generalized.
Nothing is P2W here.
I'll stop typing in annoying single sentence paragraphs now.
My post was not about the reward. It was about winning and losing. Defeating and wiping
By the very definition of defeating, they just payed to win.
defeating present participle of de·feat (Verb)
Win a victory over (someone) in a battle or other contest; overcome or beat.
This is a strawman, I know, one that will come to life though. Maybe the question should be "Can you pay to win in GW2?"
I don't think the reward is relevant in this context of conversation. We are talking about defeating an encounter with boost that was preciously beatable.
Again, buying boosts won't kill the boss for you. It might make it easier, but it's not a guarunteed kill.
Furthermore, you've popped up in almost every cash shop thread about P2W since they started popping up. By now you should know what P2W actually means, and should have seen at least 1 thread worth (if not all of them) of people explaining why your definition of 'P2W' is irrelevant.
As you say "maybe the question should be 'can you pay to win in GW2?". That IS the question, that's the whole discussion on P2W, and I think you know the answer. (Not to mention that the whole discussion has absolutely nothing to do w/ this thread. This thread, as the OP has reiterated, is about what items are available. Not about what is, or isn't p2w)
But, just to close this out, what you are describing as P2W is akin to claiming a game is P2W because a player used a strength potion and barely achieved a victory against a tough mob. Now, I know 'P2W' doesn't really have a clearly defined definition (and it probably needs one), but to a majority of the playerbase, 'pay 2 win' refers to specifically buying power that cannot otherwise be obtained. A good example of this is games like Allods, or most of the Aerie games. Buying superior gear from the cash shop is P2W. Buying a potion that makes you slightly stronger (that can also be crafted in game, btw) is not. The game is not tuned in a way that requires such items, and none of these items can be used in a PvP environment.
Originally posted by Psychow P2W isn't limited to PvP. If the scenario happend like in bcbully's example, I'd consider that P2W.
How?
What item from that Dragon Boss in Bcbully's description can a gem buyer gain that I cannot through conventional means? What item from that Dragon Boss has higher damage values or higher armor rating or gives his higher stats then what I can gain just doing a normal dynamic event or a random drop. The difference is stat distribution and looks.
both items deal 100-200 damage, have the same value of stats (i.e. 30 power, 30 condition damage, 30 vitality on the first and 60 condition damage and 30 vitality on the boss drop)
Both items are statistical twins, in other words they are both the same item level in WoW terminology. One is generalized and the other is more specificily tuned to a condition spec.
One looks plain, the other looks badass, neither will give anyone a statistical advantage over someone else but will allow someone to be more specialized and the other more generalized.
Nothing is P2W here.
I'll stop typing in annoying single sentence paragraphs now.
My post was not about the reward. It was about winning and losing. Defeating and wiping
It still isn't pay to win. Hypothetically would you consider if the only way for a WoW player to get into a Raid Finder is to pay a few dollars to buy the guarenteed spot. Cause its pretty common knowledge that raid finder is an absolute joke to finish content ( my buddy jsut did Deathwing this past weekend and didnt wipe once in a pug, so its pretty faceroll).
I myself would not find that P2W but according to your description they are paying to win because a normal person wouldnt be able to down deathwing on normal mode.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Originally posted by sammyeli Arguing with bcbully and some of the other trolls is like wrestling with a pig in mud, after a few GOs at it you realize they like it.
Yeah, I wish we had another "There's no endgame" thread, this one is getting boring.
For the 100th time, I'm buying the game. I like the Spvp setup.
I didn't start this thread. I do however have serious issue with this cash shop. Am I not allowed to take part in the discussion about the cash shop?
froums 101 - When all else fails call the guy a troll?
Nothing failed I am watching a conversation in which you consider downing a boss with nothing really coming out of it but somce cosmetics because a reason gave is that every one has 10percent boosts is P2W.
I had always thought that it was pay2win if you were recieving somethign that you couldnt recieve without paying IRL cash was P2W.
And don't come at me with oh the gratification of downing a boss easily is what you are getting so its P2W because thats all I am getting from your post.
I'd much rather not have a player of your type in the game.
Stick to TSW its far better.
The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.
Originally posted by Psychow P2W isn't limited to PvP. If the scenario happend like in bcbully's example, I'd consider that P2W.
How?
What item from that Dragon Boss in Bcbully's description can a gem buyer gain that I cannot through conventional means? What item from that Dragon Boss has higher damage values or higher armor rating or gives his higher stats then what I can gain just doing a normal dynamic event or a random drop. The difference is stat distribution and looks.
both items deal 100-200 damage, have the same value of stats (i.e. 30 power, 30 condition damage, 30 vitality on the first and 60 condition damage and 30 vitality on the boss drop)
Both items are statistical twins, in other words they are both the same item level in WoW terminology. One is generalized and the other is more specificily tuned to a condition spec.
One looks plain, the other looks badass, neither will give anyone a statistical advantage over someone else but will allow someone to be more specialized and the other more generalized.
Nothing is P2W here.
I'll stop typing in annoying single sentence paragraphs now.
My post was not about the reward. It was about winning and losing. Defeating and wiping
Ok I see what BCbully is saying he mean that there have been some guilds stating they will have money in hand at launch to by keys to get boosts from chests in order to win at certain things. But what I know is you can't use boosts in PvP and even using boost with food boosts its really not much of a difference in dmg or anythign speed yes you move way fast. I fell alot in LA looking for POI that I died from it. But he has a valid point in some ways it is pay to win cause they are using RL money to buy keys to get boosts to beat bosses but in the end there just doing it faster.
Yeah it adds a bonus but to me its not enough to warrent P2W screams in my opinion. But everyone has there own.
Sherman's Gaming
Youtube Content creator for The Elder Scrolls Online
Originally posted by Psychow P2W isn't limited to PvP. If the scenario happend like in bcbully's example, I'd consider that P2W.
How?
What item from that Dragon Boss in Bcbully's description can a gem buyer gain that I cannot through conventional means? What item from that Dragon Boss has higher damage values or higher armor rating or gives his higher stats then what I can gain just doing a normal dynamic event or a random drop. The difference is stat distribution and looks.
both items deal 100-200 damage, have the same value of stats (i.e. 30 power, 30 condition damage, 30 vitality on the first and 60 condition damage and 30 vitality on the boss drop)
Both items are statistical twins, in other words they are both the same item level in WoW terminology. One is generalized and the other is more specificily tuned to a condition spec.
One looks plain, the other looks badass, neither will give anyone a statistical advantage over someone else but will allow someone to be more specialized and the other more generalized.
Nothing is P2W here.
I'll stop typing in annoying single sentence paragraphs now.
My post was not about the reward. It was about winning and losing. Defeating and wiping
Ok I see what BCbully is saying he mean that there have been some guilds stating they will have money in hand at launch to by keys to get boosts from chests in order to win at certain things. But what I know is you can't use boosts in PvP and even using boost with food boosts its really not much of a difference in dmg or anythign speed yes you move way fast. I fell alot in LA looking for POI that I died from it. But he has a valid point in some ways it is pay to win cause they are using RL money to buy keys to get boosts to beat bosses but in the end there just doing it faster.
Yeah it adds a bonus but to me its not enough to warrent P2W screams in my opinion. But everyone has there own.
To get gear that is no more powerful than any other item the same level, so in reality they win nothing over any one else.
Comments
First off yes TSW has Pax spammers. I have recived no less then 1 day in my mailbox when I was playing and if you stand around Agartha and are able to filter out the LFG spam (lol dont even get me started on how terrible that is) you ill read spammers spamming selling Pax every few minutes. So dont try and play off that TSW is immuine from it either.
THERE IS NO +DAMAGE BOOSTS YOU CAN BUY IN THE GEM SHOP.
Furthermore the fact that you can buy gems for gold is INSTANTLY "PAY FOR CONVIENCE" You can not buy power items and even though you can buy Karma and exp boosts none of that will you a statistical advantage in the game since the stats all plataeu at a certain point and everyone will eventually have the same amount of stats to play around with.
I think you dont understand what P2W is. Pay to win is buying items that give you a statistical advantage. An example is if I can buy a sword with +40 power and deals 100-200 damage and the highest model sword that can be found in the game is +20 power and 50-100 damage. So stop with the wrong definitions that are not true.
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There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what pay to win is. Pay to win is when you MUST pay to access endgame power. It is not pay to win when you have a reasonable path to such power within the free to play ( or b2p) rules of the game. I may be distasteful to many for the option to exist, and it is certainly not the same thing as only selling cosmetic items. Being able to buy power that is otherwise available in the game is not pay to win, it is something in between. perhaps we should call it "pay to keep up". Both camps should realize though that p2kup does cross the line for some folks. Where you draw the line is a choice however.
The best example of pay to win that I can think of right now is Vanguard's item unlock scheme. In Vanguard's free to play now you are strictly limited from using higher quality items without paying. You must either be subscribed or you must buy and item unlock. This is clearly pay to win because it specifically effects the "Best" items and there is no non-paying way around it. While you are leveling this may not be a big thing as you will replace your stuff often. But once characters reach level cap and gear up for the hardest challenges in the game they will not be able to do so without paying a sub or buying unlocks. Paying to use the best drops is functionally equivalent to simply buying those items from a cash shop. You just have two steps instead of one to go though. But that is real pay to win. When you have to pay to access the highest levels of progression in a game, how ever that game defines progression. In most mmos the progression is access to the level cap and then a process of item progression though group content.
At the other end of the spectrum would be TSW's shop. Truly only vanity items. Clothes, titles, vanity pets and such. Now as to the question of if they should have a vanity shop with a sub is a whole other thing. But clearly nothing in the shop can be seen as crossing any lines. It is not only in no way pay to win but it is also not even pay to effect game play in any mechanical fashion.
Some where in between is GW2. Buying boosts does impact game play but can it be regarded as paying to win? No because you not getting access to anything that everyone else doesn't already have access to. Those other people simply need to play the game more to get to the same thing. So I buy the multi booster pack and I get 50% more exp, karma and magic items for 1 hour. But my friend doesn't buy the pack so he has to play 1hr and 30 minute to get the same progress and on the average the same amount of drops and other rewards. So we both progress the same amount for the night but I am out a few bucks by my choice and he has to take a chance at 50% more wife aggro. No advantage in the game either way, just a shifting of the time frames on how fast you get somewhere.
Selling Gems are also not pay to win. In fact it largely facilitates access to pay items for non-paying players thus leveling the field in that regard. Again, one person pays real money to buy gems then sells them to someone else in game for coins. Well getting coins is simply a matter of taking the time to do it. you spend X hours farming enough coins to buy Y gems. Or you can spend time outside the game working a job so you can buy Y gems for Z dollars. Time converts to money (real or virtual) going either way. So the choice is yours. Someone who doesnt make much at their RL job might find their time better and more enjoyable spent farming coins in the game. Others of us have really good jobs and can buy days worth of farmed coins for what we can make at work in hours or even minutes. So it can make more sense to "Farm" your coins that way. Again this is really only a shifting of time frames. I may not be able to spend as much time in game getting ahead. Is it fair that someone else who has a lot of free time on their hands can get ahead by spending more time in game? Ideally we should all get ahead in games by playing with more skill and neither time spent farming or some cash paid equals skill. So really, it shouldn't matter if someone decides to use cash to replace time spent in game or to spend time in game to get something that saves them cash.
The only thing I have seen that makes me a bit concerned are the chests and the shop sold keys. Yeah you can get keys in game but there certainly are a lot less keys than chests. Fortunately two thing mitigate. First keys can be bought with in game cash by way of gem exchange. Second, the chests have very little interesting in them that I have found so far. Usually free boosters and other consumables. We will see how often actual items get dropped from them but it doesn't seem to be much right now. So while the only item that I think is questionable is keys I am really not worried about them. Not really a game breaking thing. If I had my choice however, I would have the keys sold directly in game from a vendor though, as well as from the cash shop.
All die, so die well.
You're a bit misinformed bud.
The way the gems network works, is that real money generates the supply of gems. In-game gold generates the demand. When you buy gems (from the cash shop) using ingame gold, it actually can have an influence in the price of gems (from ingame currency). Real-cash will always be fixed, but the exchange rate (ingame gold -> gems) fluxtuates depending on how many people are trying to buy gems.
It functions a lot like how a real economy works.
- Btw, as has been mentioned, there isn't an actual 'auction house' in this game, transactions are linked between the trading post & the gem store. You could think of it like a stock market in a way.
Wasn't expecting a 2 page protracted discussion, but thanks for the replies to the question.
TSW likely has gold sellers but they aren't particularly noticeable. Never received an email, a tell and don't recall ever seeing spam in a zone or Agartha. It's also not a topic on any of the TSW forums I read. So, yeah, they probably exist but don't appear to have a very visible presence in the game.
The flipside to that would be the guy who spends his money on that epic cow finisher. Every time he hits F on you, and drops a cow's arse on your face, you'll remember that he spent real money on that. And while you can plant a flag in his chest, nothing is more humiliating than being sat on by a cow. He will have just p2w your pride.
Wouldn't be obligatory otherwise.
All die, so die well.
Bovine teabagging. Not really p2w but it does cross some kind of a line somewhere.
All die, so die well.
All you have to do is mention GW2 and you are guaranteed a minimum of 465 posts and/or a thread lock.
Enjoy and gratz in the thread!!
LOL!! I'll definitely have to be more careful about this forum in the future.
What if your guild is trying and trying to beat a world boss, Then the gm says I have 50 mystic chest. "I'm going to buy 50 keys." The gm then gives the guildies 35 boosts. The guild then beats the boss. Did they just pay to win?
Please don't say no one will do that. I've seen guilds advertising 1000$ budgets.
Nope because the items found on that Dragon boss do not give anyone who beats it a statistical advantage over me. If that dragon dropped the equivalant of "WoW Heroic Loot" with higher item level then hell yes its "Pay to Win" but since it doesnt it isnt.
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No, they paid to cheapen the experience.
Frankly, if a guild wants to buy a crapton of boosts with real money, just so they can beat a boss slightly fast or get slightly more exp / karma than the rest of the server, then power to them (but they would be idiots).
Furthermore, defeating a world boss (or even a dungeon boss) doesn't necessarily give you power. There is a hard cap on lvl 80 gear, with which all gear tops off at (even some of the more common lvl 80 gear). If you got to 80, and had enough karma, you could just go buy the best gear in the game from a WvW vendor. It probably won't look as kool as that armor piece you just got from a dungeon, world boss, or pvp match, but it'll be statistically equal.
That's how they've advertised it all along, and that's how it works. Yes, you can pay to have an advantage in time (lvling faster, gaining karma faster). This is mostly meant for players who have more money than time, but it can be used by players who have both time and money.
That's not what P2W means, and you know it. Now can you stop polluting our threads and go back to the game you are supposedly enjoying. TSW is online last i checked.
By the very definition of defeating, they just payed to win.
defeating present participle of de·feat (Verb)
Win a victory over (someone) in a battle or other contest; overcome or beat.
This is a strawman, I know, one that will come to life though. Maybe the question should be "Can you pay to win in GW2?"
I don't think the reward is relevant in this context of conversation. We are talking about defeating an encounter with boost that was preciously beatable.
Yeah, I wish we had another "There's no endgame" thread, this one is getting boring.
How?
What item from that Dragon Boss in Bcbully's description can a gem buyer gain that I cannot through conventional means? What item from that Dragon Boss has higher damage values or higher armor rating or gives his higher stats then what I can gain just doing a normal dynamic event or a random drop. The difference is stat distribution and looks.
lets play a hypothetical game: 2 images one normal drop one boss drop.
Normal Drop ITEM
Item gained from Dragon Boss
both items deal 100-200 damage, have the same value of stats (i.e. 30 power, 30 condition damage, 30 vitality on the first and 60 condition damage and 30 vitality on the boss drop)
Both items are statistical twins, in other words they are both the same item level in WoW terminology. One is generalized and the other is more specificily tuned to a condition spec.
One looks plain, the other looks badass, neither will give anyone a statistical advantage over someone else but will allow someone to be more specialized and the other more generalized.
Nothing is P2W here.
I'll stop typing in annoying single sentence paragraphs now.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
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Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
For the 100th time, I'm buying the game. I like the Spvp setup.
I didn't start this thread. I do however have serious issue with this cash shop. Am I not allowed to take part in the discussion about the cash shop?
froums 101 - When all else fails call the guy a troll?
My post was not about the reward. It was about winning and losing. Defeating and wiping
Again, buying boosts won't kill the boss for you. It might make it easier, but it's not a guarunteed kill.
Furthermore, you've popped up in almost every cash shop thread about P2W since they started popping up. By now you should know what P2W actually means, and should have seen at least 1 thread worth (if not all of them) of people explaining why your definition of 'P2W' is irrelevant.
As you say "maybe the question should be 'can you pay to win in GW2?". That IS the question, that's the whole discussion on P2W, and I think you know the answer. (Not to mention that the whole discussion has absolutely nothing to do w/ this thread. This thread, as the OP has reiterated, is about what items are available. Not about what is, or isn't p2w)
But, just to close this out, what you are describing as P2W is akin to claiming a game is P2W because a player used a strength potion and barely achieved a victory against a tough mob. Now, I know 'P2W' doesn't really have a clearly defined definition (and it probably needs one), but to a majority of the playerbase, 'pay 2 win' refers to specifically buying power that cannot otherwise be obtained. A good example of this is games like Allods, or most of the Aerie games. Buying superior gear from the cash shop is P2W. Buying a potion that makes you slightly stronger (that can also be crafted in game, btw) is not. The game is not tuned in a way that requires such items, and none of these items can be used in a PvP environment.
It still isn't pay to win. Hypothetically would you consider if the only way for a WoW player to get into a Raid Finder is to pay a few dollars to buy the guarenteed spot. Cause its pretty common knowledge that raid finder is an absolute joke to finish content ( my buddy jsut did Deathwing this past weekend and didnt wipe once in a pug, so its pretty faceroll).
I myself would not find that P2W but according to your description they are paying to win because a normal person wouldnt be able to down deathwing on normal mode.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Nothing failed I am watching a conversation in which you consider downing a boss with nothing really coming out of it but somce cosmetics because a reason gave is that every one has 10percent boosts is P2W.
I had always thought that it was pay2win if you were recieving somethign that you couldnt recieve without paying IRL cash was P2W.
And don't come at me with oh the gratification of downing a boss easily is what you are getting so its P2W because thats all I am getting from your post.
I'd much rather not have a player of your type in the game.
Stick to TSW its far better.
The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.
Carl Sagan-
You sure can and you can take that to the cash shop expanded bank!
Ok I see what BCbully is saying he mean that there have been some guilds stating they will have money in hand at launch to by keys to get boosts from chests in order to win at certain things. But what I know is you can't use boosts in PvP and even using boost with food boosts its really not much of a difference in dmg or anythign speed yes you move way fast. I fell alot in LA looking for POI that I died from it. But he has a valid point in some ways it is pay to win cause they are using RL money to buy keys to get boosts to beat bosses but in the end there just doing it faster.
Yeah it adds a bonus but to me its not enough to warrent P2W screams in my opinion. But everyone has there own.
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To get gear that is no more powerful than any other item the same level, so in reality they win nothing over any one else.