Originally posted by k-damage Great post Icewhite.
Naw, Pontificating.
But damn it, we used to encourage constructive criticism once upon a time, not just cheer the guy who vents his rage the most colorfully.
Would any of us cheer, if we weren't protected by anonymity? If we had to watch junior employees walking out of corporate offices with boxes of personal effects?
Constructive criticism requires critical thought and that's something that just isn't taught or encouraged these days. Without critical thought all people are left with is knee-jerk lashing out which comes from an almost idiotic (in the original sense of the word) lack of understanding of all the factors and possibilities involved.
George Carlin would know what I mean. For those who don't, critical thought doesn't mean criticising everything with whatever thoughts you can muster. It's about seeing the bigger picture and how things can be improved without burning everything down.
imo that's due to kid's attitude nowadays. they are like "nach mir die sinflut!", eg, they think they are the centre of the world, and what they like has to be the good thing. if they dont like it - they want no one else to have fun with it either!
don't ask me how that happened, when gaming started, it was all about fun, you didnt like a game? fine, play another game, but we surely did not start 20 page post's about "why not to play castles of dr creep", you had a friend which didnt like all of your favorite games? fine, there are enough tho he liked that you could play if you wanted to play with him.
Ah, yes the me, me, me, it's all about me!; people. This isn't a particularly new trend, it's just that the 'net allows more selfishness because you don't have to look someone in the eye when you say nasty things. Rumors and gossips have been around as long as there have been humans, someone is always hoping for someone else to fail, hard.
I'm 46 years old, and I can say from first hand experience that: for as long as there have been games, someone will tell you "that game sucks". I've done it myself, usually because I suck at it. :P But I will also usually tell the person who asked my opinion, to try it themselves.
Like most of the respondants here I want a game to fail; not because I want to see a company crash and burn, or to have coders lose their jobs. I want a game to fail because it's a poor copy of game x, which was a carbon copy of game y, which was a copy of game z, which wasn't that good a game to begin with. Or because the hype didn't come close to matching reality. Or because the great game that was there, but needed minor tweaks in CBT, was junk in OBT because the devs didn't choose to listen to the playing/paying community and changed what player loved and didn't fix what they didn't like. I'm sorry but bad games need to die a quick and painful death, period.
Coders can stand up for a great game all they like, but the developer is the one making the final decision, not the coders. Guess who loses every time a coder makes a stand for an "innovative game" vs an "it'll sell game". I guarantee it isn't the developer, it's the guy who actually writes the code. It only takes a few times of seeing the best guy on the team getting fired for that lesson to get through the thickest of skulls.
You want better games? Stop pre-ordering based on hype!! Buy and support games that are actual innovaters, don't continue to buy the same 'ole carbon copies of hit game of 1999. Understand that innovation and big time companies are near polar opposites and rarely do they meet, and then usually by accident.
For me, wanting a game to fail is attached to simlply disagreeing with design decisions or execution, and not wanting success to be a roadmap for future games (which it would stand to reason I would also not like!)
Why not just concentrate on what you like, why spending hours and hours to share your hate with so many strangers?
I completeley agree with op, mostly about dark side of human nature.
I do care for some bad restaurant with bad food that i will share this with friends. But I would never ever bother with some bad restaurant on the other side of the planet that have not impact on my current live in my town. Ok, I may fall in this trap from time to time as is easy to sit behind chair and comment on restaurant on Mars :-), but I try not to. When I mention my negative view and experience of Aion, TR, ... I will never go on their dedicated forum but will comment mainly as example in random article. But haters love to chase some game in all forums all over the world.
People like you and many others howerver want that overseas restaurant fail, because did not like the menu.
imo that's due to kid's attitude nowadays. they are like "nach mir die sinflut!", eg, they think they are the centre of the world, and what they like has to be the good thing. if they dont like it - they want no one else to have fun with it either!
don't ask me how that happened, when gaming started, it was all about fun, you didnt like a game? fine, play another game, but we surely did not start 20 page post's about "why not to play castles of dr creep", you had a friend which didnt like all of your favorite games? fine, there are enough tho he liked that you could play if you wanted to play with him.
Ah, yes the me, me, me, it's all about me!; people. This isn't a particularly new trend, it's just that the 'net allows more selfishness because you don't have to look someone in the eye when you say nasty things. Rumors and gossips have been around as long as there have been humans, someone is always hoping for someone else to fail, hard.
I'm 46 years old, and I can say from first hand experience that: for as long as there have been games, someone will tell you "that game sucks". I've done it myself, usually because I suck at it. :P But I will also usually tell the person who asked my opinion, to try it themselves.
Like most of the respondants here I want a game to fail; not because I want to see a company crash and burn, or to have coders lose their jobs. I want a game to fail because it's a poor copy of game x, which was a carbon copy of game y, which was a copy of game z, which wasn't that good a game to begin with. Or because the hype didn't come close to matching reality. Or because the great game that was there, but needed minor tweaks in CBT, was junk in OBT because the devs didn't choose to listen to the playing/paying community and changed what player loved and didn't fix what they didn't like. I'm sorry but bad games need to die a quick and painful death, period.
Coders can stand up for a great game all they like, but the developer is the one making the final decision, not the coders. Guess who loses every time a coder makes a stand for an "innovative game" vs an "it'll sell game". I guarantee it isn't the developer, it's the guy who actually writes the code. It only takes a few times of seeing the best guy on the team getting fired for that lesson to get through the thickest of skulls.
You want better games? Stop pre-ordering based on hype!! Buy and support games that are actual innovaters, don't continue to buy the same 'ole carbon copies of hit game of 1999. Understand that innovation and big time companies are near polar opposites and rarely do they meet, and then usually by accident.
I also feel that the gaming companies in general have distanced themselves from the gamers and the community. How often do you see a representative from EA post here?
But representatives from The Repopulation frequently post in these forums, answer gamers questions, stand up to criticism and generally have a dialogue with the gamers.
Well the author makes a whole lot of assumptions in his article and passes his opinons as fact.
Especially odd is the assumption that all companies want to put out great product because that creates good PR and thus sales. You do realize that there are companies in China who add cardboard to food to increase their profit margins; analogies could be drawn with the gaming industry.
Why bring up 38 Studios? We should have created a petition? Really? So we should have petitioned for 38 Studios who overspent their Rhode Island loaned money...I can't even finish my sentence. Petetion who for what exactly? Even if there was an answer for this, how is this my responsibility?
Criticizing just to be hateful is counter productive, but objective criticism is not. Objective criticism is usually warranted, the question is what does the developer do with that criticism. Final Fantasy agreed with its critics and went back to the drawing board. D3 is rebalancing their classes and tweaking minions. Other companies just cry foul of the rotten interwebs.
As to criticism hurting the grunt developer work force, well not so much. The criticism is aimed at the head developers and their design descions, not the people working under them. It is these same game generals who tend to bounce around despite failure after failure whereas their underlings are the ones with the pink slips. Without criticism, when are the bad developers ever going to be held accountable?
As to the power of the internet hate machine; it's overrated. Games that garner criticism are genrally bad. Bad games generally have their customers vote with their wallets. Bad games cause bad sales, not the criticism of bad games.
I guess at the end of the day, in a world stil reeling from a global recession, I don't think MMOs should be a No Criticism zone of unicorns and rainbows.
The consumers only "responsibilty" is to be exactly that, a consumer.
We've got to respect every right you can dream up to demand, but not the guy who works for EvilCorp?
How far down the ladder does your right-to-discourtesy extened? If you have a problem with Walmart, it's ok to hurl epithets at Walmart cashiers? Does the guy who empties wastecans for tne EA offices deserve your derision too?
"The only actual responsibility at all is on the side of the business who is responisible for the creation, promotion, and continued maintainece of their goods or services."
Basic civics class. How societies get along. How you are responsible for behaving towards other people. Simple coutesies, and what happens to cultures that forget them.
A great many people in American yackyack about their rights constantly, while refusing to acknowledge the commensurate responsibilities. It's there in the oaths your military still swears...West Point grads "get it", or they don't graduate.
Anyway, there's another much simpler reason -- "Every human being is entitled to courtesy and consideration. Constructive criticism is not only to be expected but sought."--MC Smith
Or "two wrongs don't make a right".
And again with the "Leave Britney alone!" argument. It sucks when people lose their jobs but this isn't happening because someone posted a mean spirtited tirade on a web forum, just because you wish for something doesn't make it so. The reality here is that the company they worked for produced a product not enough people wanted. You might as well call the people that decided not to buy the game and support these poor workers, mean spirited assholes as well.
This entire article feels like a hamfisted and disingenuous strawman argument that claims that anyone with a negative opinion of a game is just a dirty hater who only complain about a games faults because they want to watch it fail for their own malicious pleasure. Which is a bullshit and unfair argument. They might as well just state that whenever someone is mean on the inernet, God kills a kitten.
For example, I was very hyped about SWTOR before release (probably annoyingly so) but when open beta came and I got to get a first hand look at it, I realized to my dissapointment that the game had some serious issues. Issues which I voiced on these forums, which got me labeled as a troll by the more rabbid of SWTOR fans who could not stand the idea that anyone could see anything wrong about their chosen messiah. Fast forward to seven months later, and the game has hemmoraged subscribers and Bioware has had to lay off quite a few employees and are taking the game free to play.
Am I delighted by this? Am I running around screaming "HA HA HA!! You FAIL!! Suck it Ex-Bioware employees!!"? No I'm not. I'm still deeply dissapointed that a game I had great hopes for didn't live up to my expectations, and apperently the expectations of many others.
I will admit however to a bit of mischeavous glee at the annoyance of some of the more obnoxious fans that told me my opinion a few months back was full of shit. Which is NOT the same thing as saying "LOL! Fuck you Bioware guys who are out of a job! Nya nya, nya nya nya." Though it seems like the article writers and people like Mike Bitton want to paint us so. (Really Mr Bitton, calling people schadenfreudes is just a better educated way of calling people haters.)
I feel the biggest failing of this article (and your counter arguments ) is that it ignores the reasons the current MMO industry is in the shape it is, and that overly hyping a game (usually by its fan base) thereby giving people unrealisitc expectations of said game can have as much of a negative impact. And instead just tries to shame those they feel don't follow the advice from Bill & Ted which is "Be excellent to each other, and party on dudes."
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
When another game is made following cookie cutter patterns and lacks innovation and seems a cynical cash in on what's ogne before - then I want it to fail. Not becasue I hate the devs, but becasue I'm really ticked off that so much time effort and money is being spent on creating the same game over and over again and wish/want the same effort placed on MMO's I would actually be interested in playing. Having said that MMORPG's are not the worst offenders here. First person shooters are now the height of tedium for me. Quake repeated 1000x over.
But even with higher standards then just turining a profit, maybe people like you just dont realize that MMO's no longer are a good market to be in. In my eyes, MMO's will have to go back to being a niche product, before we see any good ones again.
While I don't bear personal malice to the employees of any MMO that isn't successful, and as victim of multiple layoffs during my life (nature of software development unfortunately) I know how much it sucks to lose your job even when the product/companies failure was through no fault of your own.
I currently work for a major finanical institution, the kind of place where people wish your CEO was dead and would cheer if the company came crashing to the ground. Heck, I don't even tell people where I work, and when I do almost see a flash of anger in their eyes sometimes.
Yet despite all that, I root against almost all MMO releases these days, because as others have said in this forum, there's no chance for me to see new games with the kinds of design choices that I favor (because I'm niche) unless the entire industry comes crashing to the ground.
As I see it, we need to drive the mass market consumer out of the industry, returning MMORPG's to smaller funded by better crafted games that do in fact cater to the niche market.
Forget trying to make F2P games, lets make it so people have to pay 30.00 a month to support them and keep them going.
Again, none of this can happen as long as the market continues to thrive under the current design/payment model, so unfortunately I'll have to continue to crusade against them.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"Just be civil to each other. And that includes the guys at UnrelentingEvilVillainGameCorpCo too."
It's like fingering the dike; the internet is on the verge of losing whatever's left of civil conversation, to the lifetime achievement award trolls and the flaming complaints of uncontrolled rage. To "forum PvP har, this be fun mateys."
And gamers (at least judging by this window into gamers) are the worst-behaved they have ever been. We used to blame that on "b.net kids", but clearly, as the entire first generation of MMO fans is also a major part of the growing adversarial relationship between producers and consumers.
Saddest thing is, old farts are the ones that should be "old enough to know better".
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
"Just be civil to each other. And that includes the guys at UnrelentingEvilVillainGameCorpCo too."
It's like fingering the dike; the internet is on the verge of losing whatever's left of civil conversation, to the lifetime achievement award trolls and the flaming complaints of uncontrolled rage. To "forum PvP har, this be fun mateys."
And gamers (at least judging by this window into gamers) are the worst-behaved they have ever been. We used to blame that on "b.net kids", but clearly, as the entire first generation of MMO fans is also a major part of the growing adversarial relationship between producers and consumers.
Saddest thing is, old farts are the ones that should be "old enough to know better".
I'm all for civility, I just disagree that disliking a company one feels has poor products and sharing that opionion is being unfairly uncivil the the people that work there. Now I agree that a post such as "Ha ha ha!! I'm glad you fuckers got fired, serves you right!" certainly is being uncivil and I personally feel people who make posts of that sort are dickheads. (But agian I stress that these people have not lost their jobs due to any ill will from forum dwellers, but becuse their company made an inferior product, and/or bad business decisions.)
However unless they actually violate the forums terms of service, they have the right to present themselves in whatever manner they so choose. We can make the choice to argue with, or ignore them, but we don't have the right to demand they behave in the manner we see fit.
As to the current state of the incivility of internet culture, I've been seeing this kind of behavior since the days of usenet. I don't really think people have changed just that there are quite a bit more of us connected these days.
As to the rise of the level of general angst on these forums, it sems to have grown lock step with the rise of the state of shrill hysteria from fans of games that tout every new game as the "Chosen One" that will finally free them from the stagnant void of MMOdom and anyone who disagrees is dicredited as a moron. It seems the state of incvility we find ourselves in here is very much a two way street. Something I notice this article fails to address.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
However unless they actually violate the forums terms of service, they have the right to present themselves in whatever manner they so choose.
Rights again?
Ok, this conversation's on recycle; back to you, rest of forum, awaaaaaay.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I would never want a game to fail if i dislike it. Why would i wish for people to lose jobs only because i dislike it? i have to be a very selfish and self centered and frankly a huge douche bag to even want somethign like that to happen.
I say Hate and willing failure is an important part of consumerism. This is not like a democracy, where everyone (theoritically) gets one vote every 4 years or so, this is a situation where you get to vote every time you buy and even worse, every time you "try".
by being part of a trial you participate in an illusion of popularity that can be sean as a selling argument: look, people are enjoying our game/movie/music, number of downloads, number of subscripiton, number of sales... those are the numbers that decide what will be done and probably done again, in a slightly better or much worse way.
Think of the movie industry, they make you curious about a movie so you go to the theater. If the movie is horrible, they still have your money don't they? so why bother make it good, just make a good trailer.
When hateful critics voice their opinions people think a little more before going to the theater. why do you think movie theaters open the same movie in 6 rooms at a time? so that as many people can see it fast before the critics and the word of mouth change the people's mind!
In gaming, when you see something that has been done 10 times before and you know it can never be done well, warning people before they pay anything is the only way, becaus they can't vote against it in 4 years, the devs and EA have their money now and they won't give it back. what about the next game? nobody warns anyone its a recipe for disaster and everybody tries it again.
So no matter the reason, if you think it will suck, say it. If you hate a game because your gradeschool bully plays it and you ahte him, then hate it and say it. bad communities are as bad as bad games. Maybe the studios will put more thoughts in doing something new instead of just repeating the lucrative errors and the popular failures of the past.
I've learned a long time ago to base my opinions on my own observations...not by other's thoughts on a matter. Haters hate, lovers love...and I will form my own opinion. Thank you very much.
Originally posted by k-damage Great post Icewhite.
Naw, Pontificating.
But damn it, we used to encourage constructive criticism once upon a time, not just cheer the guy who vents his rage the most colorfully.
Would any of us cheer, if we weren't protected by anonymity? If we had to watch junior employees walking out of corporate offices with boxes of personal effects?
Please, there are plenty of careers that offer job security...the game industry isn't one of them. Anyone who goes into it knows what they are getting into. No one is cheering because some low level guy lost his job, they are cheering because a company that makes shoddy products and treats it's customers (and in many cases employees as well) poorly gets what it deserves.
The likes of EA, Activision and Warner Bros. aren't charities or non-proffits that deserve our support because they are trying to make the world a better place. They are for proffit corporations who are out there trying to make thier share-holders rich. Nothing wrong with that, but please don't try to tell me we should be pulling out the violins when they fall victem to thier own shoddy practices and incompetence.
As a consumer, I support enterprises who treat me decently and with a modicum of respect. I support enterprises who take pride in thier work, produce high quality products and stand behind those products. I'm actualy a pretty loyal customer of any company/brand that follows those principles. Just ask Matrix Games, if you doubt me. I've even gone so far as donating to Kickstarter projects (Pathfinder Online) for companies who had concepts which I felt were worthy of backing and had difficulties with traditional financing, companies that also seem to treat thier audiences well.
However, the likes of EA and Warner Bros aren't that. They are the anthesis of what I respect in a business. They treat both customers and employees like absolute dirt. They produce shoddy products that they try to sell mostly on hype, adverstising and false impressions. They don't stand behind thier products. They engage in borderline shady business practices. They are about maximizing proffits REGARDLESS of the means employed to do so. They are the type of organizations that give business and corporate world a bad name. The hobby, the industry and probably the country would be a much better place with fewer companies like them around and I have no problem saying so. Given the fact that EA was voted "The Worst Company in America", I'm apparently not alone in that regard. So yeah..no violins or apologioes from me there.
"People love to see suffering and pain as a form of amusement. If somebody is not failing, we are not succeeding. It’s only human nature to want to be first place and want our team to win. We feel more alive when we see death and mayhem, if it is not happening to us. Our life should be perfect because we’ve all had a horrible childhood and it is our time to shine even if it means death to our opponents."
These statements are in the third paragraph of the article and immediately made me lose interest, although I did skim through to see if there was anything of interest. Generalisations are just so sloppy and irritating (to me, anyway). "People love to see suffering and pain as a form of amusement." I don't so does that mean I am not a person? Why not say "Some people ..."?
"If somebody is not failing, we are not succeeding." Who does the "we" include? Given your previous and following statements, I assume you're including everyone? I don't share that perspective at all, so am I not part of the "we"?
Now this one really makes me gnash my teeth "It’s only human nature ...". Really? Human nature? That which is considered "human nature" varies widely across different cultures and historical epoch. There are some really informative books by anthropologists and historians which bear that out. Perhaps you haven't read any?
"We feel more alive when we see death and mayhem ..." Well, that "we" leaves me out again. I feel nauseous and distressed when I see death and mayhem, not more alive.
I'm not saying all the above to be sarcastic, nor as a put-down, nor trying to be clever. I just wanted to point out that it is clumsy to use generalisations like this, and that your article, which contained some interesting points, would have read much better (to me, anyway) if you had avoided them.
-The next time you see a hateful comment or a person that just doesn’t understand why your game is better; just know their hate and ignorance is building the hype for your game.-
Soooooo true. I love that. It makes me giggle. Wishing for failure for a game, is childish, selfish, and cruel. Some people just have issues. This site has an inordinate number of those "people with issues." But from now on instead of being pissed off at the trolls, I will remember they're just building the hype for other games. I love it!
Im glad that Star Trek: DS9 got brought up in this as it serves as an excellent illustration of why most people want a game to fail and yet no one here seems to be aware of why which makes it all the more perfect an example. People seem to want certain games to fail because they are afraid that more games will enjoy the same success that ST:DS9 enjoyed for you see, That show was a successful clone of another show.
People dont want a game they dont like to become successful since they believe that it will then become a trend to have other companies copy that success. This is not an unwarranted concern as this has in fact been happening for the last several years. ST:DS9 is guilty of the exact same thing. The entire ST:DS9 series was a stretched out version of Babylon 5 season 1. The creator of Babylon 5 made the error of leaving his season 1 manuscript with paramount studios when he was trying to solicit them to green light Babylon 5. They declined and he instead managed to get his show run through Warner Bros. Shortly after Babylon 5 aired, paramount started airing Star Trek: Deep Space 9. The entire run of the series following an identical story arc and premise as the first season of Babylon 5.
While i admit to preffering Babylon 5 over ST:DS9, Farscape is actually my absolute favorite sci-fi show.
Im glad that Star Trek: DS9 got brought up in this as it serves as an excellent illustration of why most people want a game to fail and yet no one here seems to be aware of why which makes it all the more perfect an example. People seem to want certain games to fail because they are afraid that more games will enjoy the same success that ST:DS9 enjoyed for you see, That show was a successful clone of another show.
People dont want a game they dont like to become successful since they believe that it will then become a trend to have other companies copy that success. This is not an unwarranted concern as this has in fact been happening for the last several years. ST:DS9 is guilty of the exact same thing. The entire ST:DS9 series was a stretched out version of Babylon 5 season 1. The creator of Babylon 5 made the error of leaving his season 1 manuscript with paramount studios when he was trying to solicit them to green light Babylon 5. They declined and he instead managed to get his show run through Warner Bros. Shortly after Babylon 5 aired, paramount started airing Star Trek: Deep Space 9. The entire run of the series following an identical story arc and premise as the first season of Babylon 5.
While i admit to preffering Babylon 5 over ST:DS9, Farscape is actually my absolute favorite sci-fi show.
Brings back memories when the Sci Fi Channel actually broadcast sci-fi shows, loved Farscape, LEX, and a couple of others.
Now we get Warehouse 13 and 24/7 Ghosthunters.....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I suppose the reason why I want certain games to fail is because I am afraid if they become popular then the next decade will be spent talking about "insert hypothetical game here" clone. Imagine everyone speaking of "Tera Clones" *Shudders*. If studios and developers ever decide to get back to their roots of innovation and creativity then maybe I might not hope they fail but if they continue to turn out crap like Tera or WAR then their bottomline concerns me very little.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I don't want games to fail, but it does make me rofl when companies put all their time and effort into making these gigantic mmo games that are literally the same damn game that has been released time and time again.
I get it, that to them this is what they do as a career, to make a living, and for most as what they are talented at and enjoy doing. HOWEVER, game developers are becoming these diluted copororations that care more about making their pockets scrap the ground rather than actually being creative and using their artistic talents and minds to create these worlds and visions they have.
With the hardware and internet access/speeds available now, games should be progressing as well. So many games wasted on trying to be "realistic" and what not. If I want realism, I go outside. Playing a game is like reading a book or watching a movie. It's a world created by an artist or artists, it shouldn't be reality rehashed. Be out there and wild and imaginative when people enter this world they go "HOLY SHIT",
It's so so sad, so sad, soooo sad...makes me cry. Makes me shake my head when their games flop and go f2p as if they never saw it coming and eventually are forgotten as more games of the same thing are released.
Originally posted by Arskaaa "when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
For me, wanting a game to fail is attached to simlply disagreeing with design decisions or execution, and not wanting success to be a roadmap for future games (which it would stand to reason I would also not like!)
I echo this, and I'll also add on that even players who don't give a crap about "roadmaps for future games" have reason to root for the failures of games they don't play.
It's quite simple, really. MMOs aren't like other games, they thrive when lots and lots of other people are playing them. If another popular MMO dies, or at least loses subscribers, there will theoretically be more players out there who are "available" to play your game. Whenever a new MMO launches in the already crowded MMO space, it threatens to take subscribers away from established MMOs. Neither of these situations are good for you if they mean that the population of your MMO will go down.
Not wanting to be a shill for bad companies putting out a bad products makes one a bad person? It has nothing to do with tribalism or schadenfreude. A bad game is bad. The emotional aspect comes from the herd of shills knowingly lying abou a game to prop up sales. How many guys like you, industry writers are guilty of that? And it suprises you that the community is squelling for a good 'ole fashion bloodletting? A product that doesn't function well is a bad product, that's not just an "opinion", it's a fact.
The community expects "critics" to be honest, that's why we watch/read them. The community expects companies to deliver a quality product at a fair price. Are those expectations unreasonable?
No harm, but 90 per cent of this convoluted palava is unnecessary and irrelevant. You need to decide whether you're producing a piece of engaging journalism or an academic paper...
Comments
Constructive criticism requires critical thought and that's something that just isn't taught or encouraged these days. Without critical thought all people are left with is knee-jerk lashing out which comes from an almost idiotic (in the original sense of the word) lack of understanding of all the factors and possibilities involved.
George Carlin would know what I mean. For those who don't, critical thought doesn't mean criticising everything with whatever thoughts you can muster. It's about seeing the bigger picture and how things can be improved without burning everything down.
Ah, yes the me, me, me, it's all about me!; people. This isn't a particularly new trend, it's just that the 'net allows more selfishness because you don't have to look someone in the eye when you say nasty things. Rumors and gossips have been around as long as there have been humans, someone is always hoping for someone else to fail, hard.
I'm 46 years old, and I can say from first hand experience that: for as long as there have been games, someone will tell you "that game sucks". I've done it myself, usually because I suck at it. :P But I will also usually tell the person who asked my opinion, to try it themselves.
Like most of the respondants here I want a game to fail; not because I want to see a company crash and burn, or to have coders lose their jobs. I want a game to fail because it's a poor copy of game x, which was a carbon copy of game y, which was a copy of game z, which wasn't that good a game to begin with. Or because the hype didn't come close to matching reality. Or because the great game that was there, but needed minor tweaks in CBT, was junk in OBT because the devs didn't choose to listen to the playing/paying community and changed what player loved and didn't fix what they didn't like. I'm sorry but bad games need to die a quick and painful death, period.
Coders can stand up for a great game all they like, but the developer is the one making the final decision, not the coders. Guess who loses every time a coder makes a stand for an "innovative game" vs an "it'll sell game". I guarantee it isn't the developer, it's the guy who actually writes the code. It only takes a few times of seeing the best guy on the team getting fired for that lesson to get through the thickest of skulls.
You want better games? Stop pre-ordering based on hype!! Buy and support games that are actual innovaters, don't continue to buy the same 'ole carbon copies of hit game of 1999. Understand that innovation and big time companies are near polar opposites and rarely do they meet, and then usually by accident.
Why not just concentrate on what you like, why spending hours and hours to share your hate with so many strangers?
I completeley agree with op, mostly about dark side of human nature.
I do care for some bad restaurant with bad food that i will share this with friends. But I would never ever bother with some bad restaurant on the other side of the planet that have not impact on my current live in my town. Ok, I may fall in this trap from time to time as is easy to sit behind chair and comment on restaurant on Mars :-), but I try not to. When I mention my negative view and experience of Aion, TR, ... I will never go on their dedicated forum but will comment mainly as example in random article. But haters love to chase some game in all forums all over the world.
People like you and many others howerver want that overseas restaurant fail, because did not like the menu.
Ah, yes the me, me, me, it's all about me!; people. This isn't a particularly new trend, it's just that the 'net allows more selfishness because you don't have to look someone in the eye when you say nasty things. Rumors and gossips have been around as long as there have been humans, someone is always hoping for someone else to fail, hard.
I'm 46 years old, and I can say from first hand experience that: for as long as there have been games, someone will tell you "that game sucks". I've done it myself, usually because I suck at it. :P But I will also usually tell the person who asked my opinion, to try it themselves.
Like most of the respondants here I want a game to fail; not because I want to see a company crash and burn, or to have coders lose their jobs. I want a game to fail because it's a poor copy of game x, which was a carbon copy of game y, which was a copy of game z, which wasn't that good a game to begin with. Or because the hype didn't come close to matching reality. Or because the great game that was there, but needed minor tweaks in CBT, was junk in OBT because the devs didn't choose to listen to the playing/paying community and changed what player loved and didn't fix what they didn't like. I'm sorry but bad games need to die a quick and painful death, period.
Coders can stand up for a great game all they like, but the developer is the one making the final decision, not the coders. Guess who loses every time a coder makes a stand for an "innovative game" vs an "it'll sell game". I guarantee it isn't the developer, it's the guy who actually writes the code. It only takes a few times of seeing the best guy on the team getting fired for that lesson to get through the thickest of skulls.
You want better games? Stop pre-ordering based on hype!! Buy and support games that are actual innovaters, don't continue to buy the same 'ole carbon copies of hit game of 1999. Understand that innovation and big time companies are near polar opposites and rarely do they meet, and then usually by accident.
I also feel that the gaming companies in general have distanced themselves from the gamers and the community. How often do you see a representative from EA post here?
But representatives from The Repopulation frequently post in these forums, answer gamers questions, stand up to criticism and generally have a dialogue with the gamers.
I think thats the way to go,
Well the author makes a whole lot of assumptions in his article and passes his opinons as fact.
Especially odd is the assumption that all companies want to put out great product because that creates good PR and thus sales. You do realize that there are companies in China who add cardboard to food to increase their profit margins; analogies could be drawn with the gaming industry.
Why bring up 38 Studios? We should have created a petition? Really? So we should have petitioned for 38 Studios who overspent their Rhode Island loaned money...I can't even finish my sentence. Petetion who for what exactly? Even if there was an answer for this, how is this my responsibility?
Criticizing just to be hateful is counter productive, but objective criticism is not. Objective criticism is usually warranted, the question is what does the developer do with that criticism. Final Fantasy agreed with its critics and went back to the drawing board. D3 is rebalancing their classes and tweaking minions. Other companies just cry foul of the rotten interwebs.
As to criticism hurting the grunt developer work force, well not so much. The criticism is aimed at the head developers and their design descions, not the people working under them. It is these same game generals who tend to bounce around despite failure after failure whereas their underlings are the ones with the pink slips. Without criticism, when are the bad developers ever going to be held accountable?
As to the power of the internet hate machine; it's overrated. Games that garner criticism are genrally bad. Bad games generally have their customers vote with their wallets. Bad games cause bad sales, not the criticism of bad games.
I guess at the end of the day, in a world stil reeling from a global recession, I don't think MMOs should be a No Criticism zone of unicorns and rainbows.
And again with the "Leave Britney alone!" argument. It sucks when people lose their jobs but this isn't happening because someone posted a mean spirtited tirade on a web forum, just because you wish for something doesn't make it so. The reality here is that the company they worked for produced a product not enough people wanted. You might as well call the people that decided not to buy the game and support these poor workers, mean spirited assholes as well.
This entire article feels like a hamfisted and disingenuous strawman argument that claims that anyone with a negative opinion of a game is just a dirty hater who only complain about a games faults because they want to watch it fail for their own malicious pleasure. Which is a bullshit and unfair argument. They might as well just state that whenever someone is mean on the inernet, God kills a kitten.
For example, I was very hyped about SWTOR before release (probably annoyingly so) but when open beta came and I got to get a first hand look at it, I realized to my dissapointment that the game had some serious issues. Issues which I voiced on these forums, which got me labeled as a troll by the more rabbid of SWTOR fans who could not stand the idea that anyone could see anything wrong about their chosen messiah. Fast forward to seven months later, and the game has hemmoraged subscribers and Bioware has had to lay off quite a few employees and are taking the game free to play.
Am I delighted by this? Am I running around screaming "HA HA HA!! You FAIL!! Suck it Ex-Bioware employees!!"? No I'm not. I'm still deeply dissapointed that a game I had great hopes for didn't live up to my expectations, and apperently the expectations of many others.
I will admit however to a bit of mischeavous glee at the annoyance of some of the more obnoxious fans that told me my opinion a few months back was full of shit. Which is NOT the same thing as saying "LOL! Fuck you Bioware guys who are out of a job! Nya nya, nya nya nya." Though it seems like the article writers and people like Mike Bitton want to paint us so. (Really Mr Bitton, calling people schadenfreudes is just a better educated way of calling people haters.)
I feel the biggest failing of this article (and your counter arguments
) is that it ignores the reasons the current MMO industry is in the shape it is, and that overly hyping a game (usually by its fan base) thereby giving people unrealisitc expectations of said game can have as much of a negative impact. And instead just tries to shame those they feel don't follow the advice from Bill & Ted which is "Be excellent to each other, and party on dudes."
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
While I don't bear personal malice to the employees of any MMO that isn't successful, and as victim of multiple layoffs during my life (nature of software development unfortunately) I know how much it sucks to lose your job even when the product/companies failure was through no fault of your own.
I currently work for a major finanical institution, the kind of place where people wish your CEO was dead and would cheer if the company came crashing to the ground. Heck, I don't even tell people where I work, and when I do almost see a flash of anger in their eyes sometimes.
Yet despite all that, I root against almost all MMO releases these days, because as others have said in this forum, there's no chance for me to see new games with the kinds of design choices that I favor (because I'm niche) unless the entire industry comes crashing to the ground.
As I see it, we need to drive the mass market consumer out of the industry, returning MMORPG's to smaller funded by better crafted games that do in fact cater to the niche market.
Forget trying to make F2P games, lets make it so people have to pay 30.00 a month to support them and keep them going.
Again, none of this can happen as long as the market continues to thrive under the current design/payment model, so unfortunately I'll have to continue to crusade against them.
No apologies however.... I want what I want......
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Almost.
"Just be civil to each other. And that includes the guys at UnrelentingEvilVillainGameCorpCo too."
It's like fingering the dike; the internet is on the verge of losing whatever's left of civil conversation, to the lifetime achievement award trolls and the flaming complaints of uncontrolled rage. To "forum PvP har, this be fun mateys."
And gamers (at least judging by this window into gamers) are the worst-behaved they have ever been. We used to blame that on "b.net kids", but clearly, as the entire first generation of MMO fans is also a major part of the growing adversarial relationship between producers and consumers.
Saddest thing is, old farts are the ones that should be "old enough to know better".
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I'm all for civility, I just disagree that disliking a company one feels has poor products and sharing that opionion is being unfairly uncivil the the people that work there. Now I agree that a post such as "Ha ha ha!! I'm glad you fuckers got fired, serves you right!" certainly is being uncivil and I personally feel people who make posts of that sort are dickheads. (But agian I stress that these people have not lost their jobs due to any ill will from forum dwellers, but becuse their company made an inferior product, and/or bad business decisions.)
However unless they actually violate the forums terms of service, they have the right to present themselves in whatever manner they so choose. We can make the choice to argue with, or ignore them, but we don't have the right to demand they behave in the manner we see fit.
As to the current state of the incivility of internet culture, I've been seeing this kind of behavior since the days of usenet. I don't really think people have changed just that there are quite a bit more of us connected these days.
As to the rise of the level of general angst on these forums, it sems to have grown lock step with the rise of the state of shrill hysteria from fans of games that tout every new game as the "Chosen One" that will finally free them from the stagnant void of MMOdom and anyone who disagrees is dicredited as a moron. It seems the state of incvility we find ourselves in here is very much a two way street. Something I notice this article fails to address.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Rights again?
Ok, this conversation's on recycle; back to you, rest of forum, awaaaaaay.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I would never want a game to fail if i dislike it. Why would i wish for people to lose jobs only because i dislike it? i have to be a very selfish and self centered and frankly a huge douche bag to even want somethign like that to happen.
I simply move on to something i enjoy.
I say Hate and willing failure is an important part of consumerism. This is not like a democracy, where everyone (theoritically) gets one vote every 4 years or so, this is a situation where you get to vote every time you buy and even worse, every time you "try".
by being part of a trial you participate in an illusion of popularity that can be sean as a selling argument: look, people are enjoying our game/movie/music, number of downloads, number of subscripiton, number of sales... those are the numbers that decide what will be done and probably done again, in a slightly better or much worse way.
Think of the movie industry, they make you curious about a movie so you go to the theater. If the movie is horrible, they still have your money don't they? so why bother make it good, just make a good trailer.
When hateful critics voice their opinions people think a little more before going to the theater. why do you think movie theaters open the same movie in 6 rooms at a time? so that as many people can see it fast before the critics and the word of mouth change the people's mind!
In gaming, when you see something that has been done 10 times before and you know it can never be done well, warning people before they pay anything is the only way, becaus they can't vote against it in 4 years, the devs and EA have their money now and they won't give it back. what about the next game? nobody warns anyone its a recipe for disaster and everybody tries it again.
So no matter the reason, if you think it will suck, say it. If you hate a game because your gradeschool bully plays it and you ahte him, then hate it and say it. bad communities are as bad as bad games. Maybe the studios will put more thoughts in doing something new instead of just repeating the lucrative errors and the popular failures of the past.
Please, there are plenty of careers that offer job security...the game industry isn't one of them. Anyone who goes into it knows what they are getting into. No one is cheering because some low level guy lost his job, they are cheering because a company that makes shoddy products and treats it's customers (and in many cases employees as well) poorly gets what it deserves.
The likes of EA, Activision and Warner Bros. aren't charities or non-proffits that deserve our support because they are trying to make the world a better place. They are for proffit corporations who are out there trying to make thier share-holders rich. Nothing wrong with that, but please don't try to tell me we should be pulling out the violins when they fall victem to thier own shoddy practices and incompetence.
As a consumer, I support enterprises who treat me decently and with a modicum of respect. I support enterprises who take pride in thier work, produce high quality products and stand behind those products. I'm actualy a pretty loyal customer of any company/brand that follows those principles. Just ask Matrix Games, if you doubt me. I've even gone so far as donating to Kickstarter projects (Pathfinder Online) for companies who had concepts which I felt were worthy of backing and had difficulties with traditional financing, companies that also seem to treat thier audiences well.
However, the likes of EA and Warner Bros aren't that. They are the anthesis of what I respect in a business. They treat both customers and employees like absolute dirt. They produce shoddy products that they try to sell mostly on hype, adverstising and false impressions. They don't stand behind thier products. They engage in borderline shady business practices. They are about maximizing proffits REGARDLESS of the means employed to do so. They are the type of organizations that give business and corporate world a bad name. The hobby, the industry and probably the country would be a much better place with fewer companies like them around and I have no problem saying so. Given the fact that EA was voted "The Worst Company in America", I'm apparently not alone in that regard. So yeah..no violins or apologioes from me there.
"People love to see suffering and pain as a form of amusement. If somebody is not failing, we are not succeeding. It’s only human nature to want to be first place and want our team to win. We feel more alive when we see death and mayhem, if it is not happening to us. Our life should be perfect because we’ve all had a horrible childhood and it is our time to shine even if it means death to our opponents."
These statements are in the third paragraph of the article and immediately made me lose interest, although I did skim through to see if there was anything of interest. Generalisations are just so sloppy and irritating (to me, anyway). "People love to see suffering and pain as a form of amusement." I don't so does that mean I am not a person? Why not say "Some people ..."?
"If somebody is not failing, we are not succeeding." Who does the "we" include? Given your previous and following statements, I assume you're including everyone? I don't share that perspective at all, so am I not part of the "we"?
Now this one really makes me gnash my teeth "It’s only human nature ...". Really? Human nature? That which is considered "human nature" varies widely across different cultures and historical epoch. There are some really informative books by anthropologists and historians which bear that out. Perhaps you haven't read any?
"We feel more alive when we see death and mayhem ..." Well, that "we" leaves me out again. I feel nauseous and distressed when I see death and mayhem, not more alive.
I'm not saying all the above to be sarcastic, nor as a put-down, nor trying to be clever. I just wanted to point out that it is clumsy to use generalisations like this, and that your article, which contained some interesting points, would have read much better (to me, anyway) if you had avoided them.
-The next time you see a hateful comment or a person that just doesn’t understand why your game is better; just know their hate and ignorance is building the hype for your game.-
Soooooo true. I love that. It makes me giggle. Wishing for failure for a game, is childish, selfish, and cruel. Some people just have issues. This site has an inordinate number of those "people with issues." But from now on instead of being pissed off at the trolls, I will remember they're just building the hype for other games. I love it!
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Im glad that Star Trek: DS9 got brought up in this as it serves as an excellent illustration of why most people want a game to fail and yet no one here seems to be aware of why which makes it all the more perfect an example. People seem to want certain games to fail because they are afraid that more games will enjoy the same success that ST:DS9 enjoyed for you see, That show was a successful clone of another show.
People dont want a game they dont like to become successful since they believe that it will then become a trend to have other companies copy that success. This is not an unwarranted concern as this has in fact been happening for the last several years. ST:DS9 is guilty of the exact same thing. The entire ST:DS9 series was a stretched out version of Babylon 5 season 1. The creator of Babylon 5 made the error of leaving his season 1 manuscript with paramount studios when he was trying to solicit them to green light Babylon 5. They declined and he instead managed to get his show run through Warner Bros. Shortly after Babylon 5 aired, paramount started airing Star Trek: Deep Space 9. The entire run of the series following an identical story arc and premise as the first season of Babylon 5.
While i admit to preffering Babylon 5 over ST:DS9, Farscape is actually my absolute favorite sci-fi show.
Brings back memories when the Sci Fi Channel actually broadcast sci-fi shows, loved Farscape, LEX, and a couple of others.
Now we get Warehouse 13 and 24/7 Ghosthunters.....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I don't want games to fail, but it does make me rofl when companies put all their time and effort into making these gigantic mmo games that are literally the same damn game that has been released time and time again.
I get it, that to them this is what they do as a career, to make a living, and for most as what they are talented at and enjoy doing. HOWEVER, game developers are becoming these diluted copororations that care more about making their pockets scrap the ground rather than actually being creative and using their artistic talents and minds to create these worlds and visions they have.
With the hardware and internet access/speeds available now, games should be progressing as well. So many games wasted on trying to be "realistic" and what not. If I want realism, I go outside. Playing a game is like reading a book or watching a movie. It's a world created by an artist or artists, it shouldn't be reality rehashed. Be out there and wild and imaginative when people enter this world they go "HOLY SHIT",
It's so so sad, so sad, soooo sad...makes me cry. Makes me shake my head when their games flop and go f2p as if they never saw it coming and eventually are forgotten as more games of the same thing are released.
Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
I echo this, and I'll also add on that even players who don't give a crap about "roadmaps for future games" have reason to root for the failures of games they don't play.
It's quite simple, really. MMOs aren't like other games, they thrive when lots and lots of other people are playing them. If another popular MMO dies, or at least loses subscribers, there will theoretically be more players out there who are "available" to play your game. Whenever a new MMO launches in the already crowded MMO space, it threatens to take subscribers away from established MMOs. Neither of these situations are good for you if they mean that the population of your MMO will go down.
Not wanting to be a shill for bad companies putting out a bad products makes one a bad person? It has nothing to do with tribalism or schadenfreude. A bad game is bad. The emotional aspect comes from the herd of shills knowingly lying abou a game to prop up sales. How many guys like you, industry writers are guilty of that? And it suprises you that the community is squelling for a good 'ole fashion bloodletting? A product that doesn't function well is a bad product, that's not just an "opinion", it's a fact.
The community expects "critics" to be honest, that's why we watch/read them. The community expects companies to deliver a quality product at a fair price. Are those expectations unreasonable?