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Why do People Hate OWPVP?

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  • GrixxittGrixxitt Member UncommonPosts: 545
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by Grixxitt

    On another note, in OWPVP games you actually have a recourse to deal with griefers, and asshats in general. You just don't have these tools in non-pvp and restricted-pvp games.

    IMO griefing is likely more common in your average themepark than your average FFA sandbox, even more so if repercussions have been put in place.

    SO what recourse does a level 5 out minding his own business trying to level and do some gathering when some bored level 80 comes along an decides to ruin his game play.

     

     

    Sorry I subscribe to the Fairness Doctrine and fact that your rights end when they interfere with mine.

     

    Levels? Really?

    You're obviously thinking about a PvP server in a non-pvp game. Neither here nor there tbh.

     

    The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

    -The MMO Forum Community

  • GrixxittGrixxitt Member UncommonPosts: 545
    Originally posted by Prenho
    Originally posted by Grixxitt

    On another note, in OWPVP games you actually have a recourse to deal with griefers, and asshats in general. You just don't have these tools in non-pvp and restricted-pvp games.

    IMO griefing is likely more common in your average themepark than your average FFA sandbox, even more so if repercussions have been put in place.

    yes themeparks lack consequences, objectives and reason for world pvp, it is just random ganking randoms. Because of this owpvp will never work in themeparks.

    Agreed

    The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

    -The MMO Forum Community

  • AdamaiAdamai Member UncommonPosts: 476
    Open world pvp will never be fine unless there is mechanics built into the game to control it a little eve online. Reason is you get fucktards and griefers hanging around starter areas ganking new players and genrally griefing! If you stop these retards and impose a degree of mutual respect for fellow gamers enjoyment then open world pvp may work, thats why eve online has concord in start areas and the war declaration mechanics...... Because people are genrally vicious and vindictive by nature and do if they can, also other peole just like to play in peace and not worry about a random ass hat killing tbeir ass for no reason what so ever!


    I beileve open world pvp servers should be heavily rp influenced and heavily policed with appropriate diplomacy mechanics in place toprevent randomannoying selfish arrogant god players
  • dominiadominia Member Posts: 191

    Again, I can't stress it enough...

     

    More people wouldn't mind OWpvp if the risk v. reward was there.

     

    Most games that try owpvp just mess that formula up.

    Currently Playing: GW2
    Retired: Shadowbane, DAoC, WoW, FFXI, Eve Online, SWToR

    The Aphelion MMO Blog - GW2 Initial Impressions

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155
    Originally posted by Kuppa

    There are two types of pvpiers. Those that like balance and those that don't. Neither is wrong its just a matter of preference.

    Those that like balance like the level playing field. I am more of a balance guy. I can see were a game based around open world pvp can be enjoyable though, like DayZ. But I utterly hate how most mmos do it. PvE and open world pvp just do not mix for me. And we all know why, ganking.

     

    And then there is a big grey mass in between which can appriciate the different types of PvP in varying degrees. 

  • EberhardtEberhardt Member UncommonPosts: 157
    I think griefing is the number one issue. While 10% enjoy OWPVP. There are the others that want nothing more than to make the lives of lowbies a living hell.
  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155
    Originally posted by Weretigar

    Hmmm, my thoughts on open world pvp. 

    If my name didn't show up in bright red letters where someone could just hit tab and chase me down on some 210% flying mount, and I had an actual chance to escape even after dying once it  really wouldn't be a big deal. As long as I didn't lose anything. 

    Thats why SWTOR was a good place for open world pvp, except now that it's bannable if you over 5 lvls which is silly because there's no risk involved at all. 

    However I do not agree with the current version of dayz for many reasons. With the expliots ingame now a person could see you change servers respawn at higher ground and snipe you breaking the game's design and only you get punished. Now that is not for me. To many times you get an Alt-f4 or somone hacks to win against you to keep you from surviving. 

    I liked other games take on OWPVP like Ro, or Lineage 2s because the weaker person could actually get away with luck. 

    It all depends on the game and how it's setup. 

    If everyone has a fair shake at get go then I'm all for OWPVP, howver if their are tons of exploits inviled so it's one sided w/ spawn camping with no end in sight (Ilum). Then I do have a problem with it.

     

    I agree, the weaker person has to have a method to get away from combat or at least get revenge in a reasonable manner: such as  planning your traveling routes, planning escape routes,  being active in the community, keeping eye on surroundings etc. 

     

    However, which Open PvP games do not give the weaker person that chance? I've played a few such as RF Online, Lineage II and Salem and in all of them the weaker target had a reasonable chance to get away and get payback.

     

     

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Well my own reasons would be:

    Inaccessible. Going to places takes forever, and you almost always need a group to do anything worthwhile for fear of being ganked.

    No challenge. I don't get anything out of ganking. Players that I may encounter may be

    • engaging PvE
    • be of lower level than me
    • be part of a smaller group than me

    In none of those cases a smart enemy would not willingly fight me so thee run a way and I will be catching and killing them whenever I can just to relieve boredom, but I do not get any enjoyment out of it.

    The power difference and size of groups also introduce a "non-skill factor" to the equation. They effectively diminish my ability to affect the outcome. It is out of my hands, and therefore I have no interest in the fight. I can't get a sense of accomplishment if I won due to one of the stated non-skill factors.

    The nature of open world PvP is also the sort which puts a heavy emphasis on maneuvering pre-fight rather than the fight itself. Often the fight is merely a formality for the reasons stated before: player numbers and power difference. I have little interest in this shuffling, this "cat 'n' mouse game". It leads to combat as often as not, and even when things escalate to a battle, the outcome is often very underwhelming: the battle is one-sided and pre-determined.

    TL;DR: Inaccessibility, no challenge, non-skill factors, and disappointing fights.

     

    The psychological fights and schemes are indeed an important part of games with Open PvP, but yeah, if you dislike that aspect in games, Open PvP games wouldn't suit you. Open PvP is like you say much more than just about the physical combat itself.

  • SuprGamerXSuprGamerX Member Posts: 531

    Ok , ALOT of people don't like OWPVP for the simple fact that when they are questing with friends they don't want a bunch of ass holes ruining their fun. Simple as 1+1=2.

     The only OWPVP meant for big boys and girls is EVE-Online , because let's face it , EVE is a sick game based on PvP. And with no "quests" or mob grinds to level up , it's the perfect set up for PvP , those who don't like to PvP don't play EVE-Online , they say they don't play because it's P2P , bullshit , they don't play because they are scared.  

     So yea OWPVP in a fantasy MMO is somewhat of a bad idea if your trying to attract a high playerbase , and when it comes to a B2P / F2P you need a high ammount of player base to keep that cash flow positive.   While a P2P like EVE-Online only need a few thousand K' of subs (Which they got well over 400K) to keep the game alive with numerous free Xpacs for a lifetime.

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155
    Originally posted by hardicon

    I like open world pvp, in games where pvp was fun, it mattered and no matter what level or how many skill points you had, there was a chance you could win.

     

    I loved open world pvp in asherons call.  once you got about level 50 there was a decent chance you could beat anyone if you knew what you were doing.  when you killed someone or you died you dropped items, there was a reason to pvp back then.  most games nowadays, what is the reason for pvp, there is not one.  in level based games its even worse, if a level 80 jumps on a level 70 then the level 70 is simply dead, the power gap is too large to compete in level based games so therefore it is not fun.

     

    give me a game that makes pvp fun, like asherons call was and I will play it.  give me wow style open world pvp and ill pass.

     

    You can win a "war" in many more ways than just "physically" personally beating the person.

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155
    Originally posted by SuprGamerX

    Ok , ALOT of people don't like OWPVP for the simple fact that when they are questing with friends they don't want a bunch of ass holes ruining their fun. Simple as 1+1=2.

     The only OWPVP meant for big boys and girls is EVE-Online , because let's face it , EVE is a sick game based on PvP. And with no "quests" or mob grinds to level up , it's the perfect set up for PvP , those who don't like to PvP don't play EVE-Online , they say they don't play because it's P2P , bullshit , they don't play because they are scared.  

     So yea OWPVP in a fantasy MMO is somewhat of a bad idea if your trying to attract a high playerbase , and when it comes to a B2P / F2P you need a high ammount of player base to keep that cash flow positive.   While a P2P like EVE-Online only need a few thousand K' of subs (Which they got well over 400K) to keep the game alive with numerous free Xpacs for a lifetime.

     

    If the ruleset allows to them to play villains, why would they be "assholes"? They are merely roleplaying a character role which is acceptable within the game rules.

     

    I do understand though that certain people (maybe everyone from time to time?) sometimes just want to play a game without fearing hostile action from other players. They want to relax and do not want to feel paranoid all the time while playing the game. Completely understandable, but I just disagree with the notion of calling the players roleplaying villains "assholes". 

  • eye_meye_m Member UncommonPosts: 3,317
    Originally posted by Parasitenoir

    Hey guys - (just to start so no flaming occurs) i will be playing gw2 so I am not a hater.  I just have a more general question.

     

    Why is it that people do not like true open world pvp, where you can gank anyone while they are questing etc.  I enjoyed it in wow while it existed (vanilla-slightly BC), Rift was good, and currently gaming in Tera.

    Is it the annoyance of being ganked and not being able to defend yourself.  Does it provide to much of a challenge.  Or is our generation just lazy and prefer to sit in a town and just que for stuff.

     

    I personally like the OWPVP and being able to mess with someones day while there gathering, questing whatever there doing .

     

    what are peoples thoughts on this?

    The answer to your question is the same answer for why people don't like to stand in elevators with someone that just crapped their pants.  Because some asshole ruins everything for everybody there.

     

    I loathe OWPvP and my sentiments to the people that prefer it are about the same. If you wish that things turned out differently, take a look at yourself in the mirror then punch yourself in the face. There is nobody to blame but the people that "liked messing with someone's day"

     

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

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  • ComafComaf Member UncommonPosts: 1,150
    Originally posted by Eberhardt
    I think griefing is the number one issue. While 10% enjoy OWPVP. There are the others that want nothing more than to make the lives of lowbies a living hell.

    Well said:

     

    Johny Griefer wakes up at the crack of noon, grabs his cereal box, a bowl and a jug of milk and logs into (x game).  He grinds up skills and abilities, gets in a few fights with some other Johny Griefers, maybe even makes a guild with them.  THat night, after Adam Adult logs in, it's already late.  He's put the kids to bed, helped the wife with stuff around the house and has prepped for work.  He finally has 1.5 precious hours to relax and play (x game).  There he is, the game's been out for a month, but man is he excited.  He read the reports at work about how great (x game is).  He gets his first quest or runs to a mob grind spot and bam, Johmnny Griefer is there and bored out of his mind - probably complaining about a lack of content as well.  He beats the crap out of Adam Adult for the entire 1.5 hours.  Adam Adult tries to stick through, hears people calling him a carebear, he's told that WoW is that way <-------------- and to quit and QQ.  Johny Griefer is finally having fun again - Adam Adult never logs in again and tells his wife that he's too old for gaming since he's now 25 with a kid.

     

    See the point?  It's a niche audience, that's what Johny Griefer's game is.  There are married folk who do play these sorts of games - though they historically do not do well financially (not relevant)...but I guarantee that something is suffering in their home life in order for them to ever be able to get anything done in this sort of game.

     

    /2 cents

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  • CorehavenCorehaven Member UncommonPosts: 1,533
    Originally posted by Parasitenoir

    Hey guys - (just to start so no flaming occurs) i will be playing gw2 so I am not a hater.  I just have a more general question.

     

    Why is it that people do not like true open world pvp, where you can gank anyone while they are questing etc.  I enjoyed it in wow while it existed (vanilla-slightly BC), Rift was good, and currently gaming in Tera.

    Is it the annoyance of being ganked and not being able to defend yourself.  Does it provide to much of a challenge.  Or is our generation just lazy and prefer to sit in a town and just que for stuff.

     

    I personally like the OWPVP and being able to mess with someones day while there gathering, questing whatever there doing .

     

    what are peoples thoughts on this?

     

    Because I dont find this scenario fun at all: 

     

    I'm attacking a mob or two or three and Im down to half health and I get ganked in the back.  I return to area and fight the dope that killed me.   He dies.  I try to continue with what I was doing.  But he comes back and kills me.  I go back and kill him.  We do this back and forth for awhile. 

     

    Eventually he calls in a friend or two.  And now Im being camped.  So I call out some friends and we all start fighting.  We kill some of them, they kill some of us and this goes on back and forth for about an hour or two.  Not counting the original hour or half an hour I fought the original ganker. 

     

    During this time no one accomplished anything.  The entire endevour was the most pointless, futile thing in existence.  There was no real victory in any of it, as in anyone I killed just reappears so we can harrass each other only minutes later and do the whole stinking thing all over again.  FUN!  No...no its not.  I guess some people find that kind of crap fun but past the first fight I'm already bored to death. 

     

    At least in structured PVP deaths will matter at times, and there's a point.  There's a way to win.  That's a game.  That's a purpose.  So I highly enjoy that stuff as opposed to open world PVP which is always one of the most pointless and time wasting experiences I've ever had in gaming.  

     

     

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155
    Originally posted by Corehaven
    Originally posted by Parasitenoir

    Hey guys - (just to start so no flaming occurs) i will be playing gw2 so I am not a hater.  I just have a more general question.

     

    Why is it that people do not like true open world pvp, where you can gank anyone while they are questing etc.  I enjoyed it in wow while it existed (vanilla-slightly BC), Rift was good, and currently gaming in Tera.

    Is it the annoyance of being ganked and not being able to defend yourself.  Does it provide to much of a challenge.  Or is our generation just lazy and prefer to sit in a town and just que for stuff.

     

    I personally like the OWPVP and being able to mess with someones day while there gathering, questing whatever there doing .

     

    what are peoples thoughts on this?

     

    Because I dont find this scenario fun at all: 

     

    I'm attacking a mob or two or three and Im down to half health and I get ganked in the back.  I return to area and fight the dope that killed me.   He dies.  I try to continue with what I was doing.  But he comes back and kills me.  I go back and kill him.  We do this back and forth for awhile. 

     

    Eventually he calls in a friend or two.  And now Im being camped.  So I call out some friends and we all start fighting.  We kill some of them, they kill some of us and this goes on back and forth for about an hour or two.  Not counting the original hour or half an hour I fought the original ganker. 

     

    During this time no one accomplished anything.  The entire endevour was the most pointless, futile thing in existence.  There was no real victory in any of it, as in anyone I killed just reappears so we can harrass each other only minutes later and do the whole stinking thing all over again.  FUN!  No...no its not.  I guess some people find that kind of crap fun but past the first fight I'm already bored to death. 

     

    At least in structured PVP deaths will matter at times, and there's a point.  There's a way to win.  That's a game.  That's a purpose.  So I highly enjoy that stuff as opposed to open world PVP which is always one of the most pointless and time wasting experiences I've ever had in gaming.  

     

     

     

    Taking so much mobs that your health went low is a risktaking you take. If you aren't willing to deal with the possible negative outcome of risky behaviour: don't engage in it.

     

    As for the constant back-and-forth killing you describe: several properly designed Open PvP games solved that by either making deaths meaningful or some form of flagging system that makes the situation unfavorable for the initial aggressor.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,455
    There are no raids in GW2, this seems to be all they have as endgame. I asked before if there are any videos to show how good this sort of endgame is as posters were raving about it. Not seen any links so far...
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    Taking so much mobs that your health went low is a risktaking you take. If you aren't willing to deal with the possible negative outcome of risky behaviour: don't engage in it.

     

    or you can engage in it in a game without OWPvP. I don't see a reason why i should be dealing with griefers when i am facing a pve challenge.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675
    Originally posted by IG-88

    I dont enjoy pvp in the first place, so OWPVP is out of the question.

    The only pvp ive ever enjoyed was SWG´s massive saturday night space PVP, but that was totally different.

    That's exactly it.  I don't PvP.  Ever.  Under any circumstances.  I don't care if other people want to beat each other over the head but I find no enjoyment in it whatsoever.  In OWPvP though, I can't opt out.  I can't tell the PvPers to take a flying leap.  I'm a target.

    I refuse to be a target.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675
    Originally posted by ZBergz
    People only dislike bad implementations of open world pvp.  I do not believe you could find a consensus as to which game does it successfully.  I do believe that the majority of posters will agree that many games do it poorly.

    I dislike all implementation of all PvP so you're wrong.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • punkrock2punkrock2 Member UncommonPosts: 78
    Most of the MMO gamers from WOW gen are cowards and have no idea what real PVP is, that is the honest truth. They have que times, wtf is que times doing in a MMO game, or a timer on PVP. Man DAOC is a older game but the PVP is ran 24/7 and it is also put into levels so no one gets ganked by higher levels.
  • GardavsshadeGardavsshade Member UncommonPosts: 907
    Originally posted by Scot
    There are no raids in GW2, this seems to be all they have as endgame. I asked before if there are any videos to show how good this sort of endgame is as posters were raving about it. Not seen any links so far...

    GW (1) was principally a PvP game... as evidenced by changes to classes that usually hurt the PvE side of all classes. Anet many times showed through actions that PvP was their master plan for GW.

    It is not surprising to me that a game that is a sequal to GW in many ways, is at least in some ways a PvP game.

    Now as to the OP's question... why do people hate OWPvP? I have no idea. Sounds great fun to me... sounds like DAoC. If so then I would surely enjoy it. I don't PvP anymore (too old really), but sounds like GW2 PvP might be like DAoC a little...

    But I'm not everyone. Everyone is different. We all like a few things differently than others.

    Some Players love PvP. Some Hate it. Some could take it or leave it, they don't care.

    Normality.

  • blognorgblognorg Member UncommonPosts: 643


    Originally posted by Corehaven

    Originally posted by Parasitenoir Hey guys - (just to start so no flaming occurs) i will be playing gw2 so I am not a hater.  I just have a more general question.   Why is it that people do not like true open world pvp, where you can gank anyone while they are questing etc.  I enjoyed it in wow while it existed (vanilla-slightly BC), Rift was good, and currently gaming in Tera. Is it the annoyance of being ganked and not being able to defend yourself.  Does it provide to much of a challenge.  Or is our generation just lazy and prefer to sit in a town and just que for stuff.   I personally like the OWPVP and being able to mess with someones day while there gathering, questing whatever there doing .   what are peoples thoughts on this?
      Because I dont find this scenario fun at all:    I'm attacking a mob or two or three and Im down to half health and I get ganked in the back.  I return to area and fight the dope that killed me.   He dies.  I try to continue with what I was doing.  But he comes back and kills me.  I go back and kill him.  We do this back and forth for awhile.    Eventually he calls in a friend or two.  And now Im being camped.  So I call out some friends and we all start fighting.  We kill some of them, they kill some of us and this goes on back and forth for about an hour or two.  Not counting the original hour or half an hour I fought the original ganker.    During this time no one accomplished anything.  The entire endevour was the most pointless, futile thing in existence.  There was no real victory in any of it, as in anyone I killed just reappears so we can harrass each other only minutes later and do the whole stinking thing all over again.  FUN!  No...no its not.  I guess some people find that kind of crap fun but past the first fight I'm already bored to death.    At least in structured PVP deaths will matter at times, and there's a point.  There's a way to win.  That's a game.  That's a purpose.  So I highly enjoy that stuff as opposed to open world PVP which is always one of the most pointless and time wasting experiences I've ever had in gaming.      
     

    That actually sounds like a lot more fun than questing to me. The problem is that most of the time, the person killing you is much higher level. If you were actually able to go back and kill your assassin, then that seems like fair fun, especially if you were bother able to get some other people in on it. Most of my experiences are just getting ganked by someone which I didn't stand a chance with, then I would just have to walk back to my body. And I think that's the problem with open world PvP in theme parks, it's just not really built into the gameplay, but it just feels kind of tacked on. If the game was constructed around it, and there was value to world PvP (and possibly ganking), then it would be much more fun.

  • BattleFelonBattleFelon Member UncommonPosts: 483

    I used to love open PVP back when I had just graduated from college and had plenty of time to play. I roled open PVP in SWTOR and hated it for three reasons:

     

    1. Faction imbalance - on most servers empire outnumbered republic at least 3-1. Even if a few noble level 50 heroes briefly rallied to defend the lowbies from evil ganking sith, within about 15 minutes the entire zone would be overrun by Imperials. This was also a huge problem for me in Warhammer too.

    2. I'm casualcore - I'm play about 15-20 hours/week, enough to stay current in structured PVP but not really enough to take on a total PVP badass mano y mano. I'm also a slower leveler and thus will be subjected to several months of griefng from those who hit max level in the first week.

    3.  Cheap tactics by gankers - From my experience, OWPVP gankers seem to all follow the same tactics. They play the stealth class, always hit lowbies or wait until somebody is half-dead from fighting mobs before attacking. Then they melt away at the sign of any real challenge.

  • Einherjar_LCEinherjar_LC Member UncommonPosts: 1,055

    Because people in games that have OWPvP for the most part act like douche bags, which is not a fun environment to most people.

     

    I get enough of that daily in real life, the last thing I want is to deal with it during my recreational time.

     

    Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!

  • madazzmadazz Member RarePosts: 2,115
    Originally posted by BattleFelon

    I used to love open PVP back when I had just graduated from college and had plenty of time to play. I roled open PVP in SWTOR and hated it for three reasons:

     

    1. Faction imbalance - on most servers empire outnumbered republic at least 3-1. Even if a few noble level 50 heroes briefly rallied to defend the lowbies from evil ganking sith, within about 15 minutes the entire zone would be overrun by Imperials. This was also a huge problem for me in Warhammer too.

    2. I'm casualcore - I'm play about 15-20 hours/week, enough to stay current in structured PVP but not really enough to take on a total PVP badass mano y mano. I'm also a slower leveler and thus will be subjected to several months of griefng from those who hit max level in the first week.

    3.  Cheap tactics by gankers - From my experience, OWPVP gankers seem to all follow the same tactics. They play the stealth class, always hit lowbies or wait until somebody is half-dead from fighting mobs before attacking. Then they melt away at the sign of any real challenge.

    While SWTOR had open PvP you are missing the main reason it sucked. There was no objective. No gain. No reward. No penalties. It was just ass-hats running around killing for only the single reason of griefing. I personally didn't have any issues in that game with griefers (I usually killed them in their attempts), but, it was none the less boring.

    This generation of MMO players hasn't had the opportunity to play a proper open world pvp game. Its all just tacked on. There was a time where you didn't need a second set of gear for PvP either. Its all stupid now! But, thats just my opinion.

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