So you demand special rights for hardcore players? Of course it stings and angers the hardcore fans, that others want to be heard equal. Such is the nature of things that they yell and demand a game is catered only for them. It is not surprising, but in a very immature way self-centered. I think a MMO should cater for many different playstyles and difficulty levels. We have over 10 years of MMO history, I THINK MMOs should be able to manage that by now. The world does not revolve around you hardcore players who usually go to forums, you know.
Just look at the steep decline in the level of challenge / risk / effort in MMOs since early days. MMOs do cater to the non hardcore fans, there are a gazillion watered down, streamlined, easy MMOs.
We have over 10 years of MMO History, you'd think by now they could build differnnt Servers so the diametrically opposed playstyles ( Casual / Hardcore ) ( Easy / Difficult ) aren't throw into the same Server / Ruleset. They do it with PvP vs PvE and even RP so lets take things to the next step.
The "funny" thing with my Mesmer was, I had NO difficulty with my Mesmer in PVP. On the contrary, even though I am a sucker at PVP, I won usually 3 out of 5 sPVP matches and fared very well in WvW. The point is: human players easily attack a clone. For some mysterious reason mobs however 80% of the time find out directly who the real player is and attack me within moments.
Sense, this makes none.
Get that kind of crap (AI ignoring pets, seeing through stealth, ignoring clones) in pretty much every game to be fair to some extent or another.
Are you mainly getting trouble in "story mode"?
Yeah story mode the most. The masses in story instances simply overrun me.
Open world is ok, though I am a bit skeptic how it will be with fewer players around.
PvP seems easy enough.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
So you demand special rights for hardcore players? Of course it stings and angers the hardcore fans, that others want to be heard equal. Such is the nature of things that they yell and demand a game is catered only for them. It is not surprising, but in a very immature way self-centered. I think a MMO should cater for many different playstyles and difficulty levels. We have over 10 years of MMO history, I THINK MMOs should be able to manage that by now. The world does not revolve around you hardcore players who usually go to forums, you know.
Just look at the steep decline in the level of challenge / risk / effort in MMOs since early days. MMOs do cater to the non hardcore fans, there are a gazillion watered down, streamlined, easy MMOs.
We have over 10 years of MMO History, you'd think by now they could build differnnt Servers so the diametrically opposed playstyles ( Casual / Hardcore ) ( Easy / Difficult ) aren't throw into the same Server / Ruleset. They do it with PvP vs PvE and even RP so lets take things to the next step.
The main decline I see is
a) Punishment
b) more soloability
Both are not related to difficulty. It is a common misunderstand of past days that people thought punishment = difficulty. Just because you had a corpse run and XP loss didn't make games of the past more difficult, just more painful. I daresay that GW2 or TERA with active combat is more "difficult" in a way than, say, Everquest II, where your char just stood there spamming skills. That didn't require much thinking or tactics.
Also, MMOs of the first era were simply casual and solo unfriendly by enforcing people to group. That wasn't difficulty either, it was inflexibility.
Originally posted by pkpkpk
Kids these days don't know what a difficult game is.
Funny, I am almost old enough to be your dad, sonny. I played computer games when you still were a blink in the eyes of your dad, so don't educate me what difficult gaming is.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
The title could just as easy be I am SICK and TIRED of the "easy mode" crowd.
If your dying every five minutes Learn 2 Play and also having "grey" lower level mobs is useless I would rather be able to help out lower level friends and still get xp.
Another thing City of Heroes provided a solution for with difficulty sliders: 1-8 group size, and 1-4 level. So you could play the game on setting 1-1 and it would put you up against enemies spawned for 1 person at the same level or play on 8-4 and spawn enemies for a 8 person group at your level +4.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Yeah story mode the most. The masses in story instances simply overrun me.
Open world is ok, though I am a bit skeptic how it will be with fewer players around.
PvP seems easy enough.
The problem with the story instances is that unless you run a more survival orientated class then you tend to struggle until you get to the point where you have enough skill points to actually spec into something that can actually last more than 5 seconds as a squishy.
For me it's not actually "hard", it is sometimes just frustrating. You get bum rushed from time to time in enclosed areas so regardless of your ability to CC and heal as a squishy, you tend to get fucked over. That's not "hard" it is just annoying. In pvp the same occurs, but the thing is it is your own fault for getting hemmed in, in the story mode, it leaves you no choice.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Both are not related to difficulty. It is a common misunderstand of past days that people thought punishment = difficulty. Just because you had a corpse run and XP loss didn't make games of the past more difficult, just more painful. I daresay that GW2 or TERA with active combat is more "difficult" in a way than, say, Everquest II, where your char just stood there spamming skills. That didn't require much thinking or tactics.
Also, MMOs of the first era were simply casual and solo unfriendly by enforcing people to group. That wasn't difficulty either, it was inflexibility.
I see what you are saying but I think you are trying to split hairs here or logically troll the debate.
Lets start with Webster's definiton ... Difficult = hard to deal with, manage or overcome.
Anything the makes an MMO easier by simple logic makes it less difficult. You may not respect or appreciated the difficulty of older MMOs, but it is simply untrue to claim that the risk/challenge and even cumbersome UI didn't make it more difficult to succeed at reaching max level / end game.
We both agree that older MMOs had more punishment. Now lets look at that for a second and see how punshment plays out and adds to difficulty.
To be punished you had to have failed at something. The punishment was tied to your failure to keep your character alive while trying to overcome the challenge of the game/ encounters/ dungeons / Raids and sometimes other players.
Back in the day, beyond just the fate of your unstable internet connection you were challenged with having to manage the risk to your character very carefully, you had to be painfully aware of your surroundings, you had to accurately gauge the strength, number and abilities of your adversaries and work tightly with your group mates.
Failure directly impacted your ability to progress your character through XP loss, loss of corpses and gear. If you failed more often than you succeeded then your character would almost cease to exist being forever trapped at level 1. it was common to requires 5-10 successful encounters to replace the lost Xp from a single failure.
Nowdays... Challenge and Punishment has been stripped away and all that is left is a negligible repair costs and 2 minute travel time back to where you died.
So you are not significantly challenged to manager the risk to your character because it is almost non existent. Not to mention the game and content have been adjusted to limit the amount of your attention needed while playing.
Hostile creatures run slower than you and have much more limited agro ranges, creatures are leashed so they give up chasing after you very quickly and they are dumbed down so that while they walk back to their spawn point they will not be aggressive unless attacked.
The UI and game auto targets, auto faces and auto attacks and in most encounters you can sit back and watch the encounter auto play itself to victory. It flashes when you are hurt and has overt visual cues to catch you attention when you are near death.
The game is designed to get you back into the action with as little downtime as possible there is not set back for losing just a 2 min run back after reswpan. No loss of XP , trying to recover a corpse, loss of gear or a long journey back to where you were defeated.
Today the MMO challenge is simple, show up and login, the Trinity is gone so there is not complicated grouping required to be successful, the skills are streamlined so you don't need to manage as many abilities, the death penalty is removed so you are free to fail as much as you want. When content is designed to have anything more than a passing challenge players cry out that it is unfair and descriminatory.
In a sarcastic extreme....Given the law of averages you could advance your character to max level by simply rolling your face across your keyboard if you had the patience to do it long enough. The rewards are so high that a single success can cover a dozens failures. There is little risk and defeat costs you just couple minutes interuption as you run back to throw yourself blindly back into the fray.
Everyone plays games for different reason and many of us want something more than an easy win to occupy are time.
Originally posted by Mephster There is always pacman and asteroids available to play.
Those games are harder then any mmo out to date. At least pacman
That's true. Imagine the complaints Pac-Man would get if it released today. And if that's not scary enough, imagine them adding a cash shop.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Holy shit that had me laughing. And yeah, I'd say that's relevant alright. Thanks a lot for sharing.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
We have over 10 years of MMO History, you'd think by now they could build differnnt Servers so the diametrically opposed playstyles ( Casual / Hardcore ) ( Easy / Difficult ) aren't throw into the same Server / Ruleset. They do it with PvP vs PvE and even RP so lets take things to the next step.
WOW is already doing this.
Three levels of raid difficulties: LFR, normal and hard.
We have over 10 years of MMO History, you'd think by now they could build differnnt Servers so the diametrically opposed playstyles ( Casual / Hardcore ) ( Easy / Difficult ) aren't throw into the same Server / Ruleset. They do it with PvP vs PvE and even RP so lets take things to the next step.
WOW is already doing this.
Three levels of raid difficulties: LFR, normal and hard.
Servers not few instanced raids. I think rutaq is already aware that many mmorpg's provide 2-3 difficulty setting for raids and / or dungeons. Usually with hardmodes or nightmare modes, etc
Well that is not enough for him and many people who are talking about difficuly and challenge.
You argumented many times before that 'WoW is not easy', 'WoW alrady scale diffuicly", etc
because it has diffrent difficuly sets raids and some heroic dungeons.
Ok.
You're still stubborndly ignore fact that most people telling in those forums about difficulty, challange, etc mean whole game experience or open world.
Huge majority of people you argument with does NOT mean raids or other instances.
So replying that there are few instanced differnt difficulty level raids to someone that is telling about diffrent difficulty servers is actually close to trolling.
I agree with the OP in this much - don't fix it if it ain't broke. Fixing your game's glitches - yes. Dumbing down or hyping up - no. Let it be the way the creators originally designed it.
You argumented many times before that 'WoW is not easy', 'WoW alrady scale diffuicly", etc
because it has diffrent difficuly sets raids and some heroic dungeons.
Ok.
You're still stubborndly ignore fact that most people telling in those forums about difficulty, challange, etc mean whole game experience or open world.
No. They said "MMO is too easy" or "games are too easy". Obviously those statements are wrong. Now if they point out the leveling in WOW from 1-85 is too easy .... that is another story.
In fact, you are not them, how would you know if they are misinformed, or they are talking about questing?
And at the end game ....
1) PvE has difficulty scale, and
2) PvP BG and arena is never easy obviously.
And MOST part of the game (like WOW) is played at the end game. So characterizing WOW as easy, while a large part of what people do are not, is not accurate.
And you never see me argue about "quest leveling is too easy" (except may in D3 ... you will die in hell mode if you are not careful, or not gearing up properly).
Originally posted by Jemcrystal I agree with the OP in this much - don't fix it if it ain't broke. Fixing your game's glitches - yes. Dumbing down or hyping up - no. Let it be the way the creators originally designed it.
*Some* parts of *some* games are obviously too difficult.
Examples:
1) hard mode raiding in WOW, when the raid was first released.
2) Inferno mode in D3, in the beginning.
Thus, lots of people complained, and Blizz FIXED them.
Sorry but I can only think of one maybe two MMO's made in the last five years that were not easy mode. This is proof positive that the devs do not listen to those who want harder MMO's. If you want to be THE hero read a book where you are the hero or play a solo game that casts you in that role.
There are other players in MMO's and they can help or hinder you as you progress. I guess the clue is in 'Multiplayer', it is a bit like this forum you don't play on your own here either.
Sorry but I can only think of one maybe two MMO's made in the last five years that were not easy mode. This is proof positive that the devs do not listen to those who want harder MMO's. If you want to be THE hero read a book where you are the hero or play a solo game that casts you in that role.
There are other players in MMO's and they can help or hinder you as you progress. I guess the clue is in 'Multiplayer', it is a bit like this forum you don't play on your own here either.
Hmm .. i *can* be a hero playing MMOs with scripted events. Why shouldn't i?
Sorry but I can only think of one maybe two MMO's made in the last five years that were not easy mode. This is proof positive that the devs do not listen to those who want harder MMO's. If you want to be THE hero read a book where you are the hero or play a solo game that casts you in that role.
There are other players in MMO's and they can help or hinder you as you progress. I guess the clue is in 'Multiplayer', it is a bit like this forum you don't play on your own here either.
Hmm .. i *can* be a hero playing MMOs with scripted events. Why shouldn't i?
For me in an mmo, you are the "hero", "villain" or just a character that stands out in one way or another dependant upon how you are doing in relation to and in the respect of, the other players.
People who lead and organised the pvp, people who first discovered certain locations, people who provided the best crafting services or dominated the markets. Guilds that made a name for themselves, e-sport players who constantly topped the charts. The people best at their class/playstyle.
In my opinion it is questionable how you can be the "hero" (I hate to use terms like that when talking about games but I mean it purely within the context of games) in a massively multiplayer online game when you simply do a quest/quest line every other Tom, Dick and Harry has done over 9000 times before.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Comments
all ya gotta do is play them and realize for yourself.
Source : experience.
Just look at the steep decline in the level of challenge / risk / effort in MMOs since early days. MMOs do cater to the non hardcore fans, there are a gazillion watered down, streamlined, easy MMOs.
We have over 10 years of MMO History, you'd think by now they could build differnnt Servers so the diametrically opposed playstyles ( Casual / Hardcore ) ( Easy / Difficult ) aren't throw into the same Server / Ruleset. They do it with PvP vs PvE and even RP so lets take things to the next step.
Kids these days don't know what a difficult game is.
Yeah story mode the most. The masses in story instances simply overrun me.
Open world is ok, though I am a bit skeptic how it will be with fewer players around.
PvP seems easy enough.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
The main decline I see is
a) Punishment
b) more soloability
Both are not related to difficulty. It is a common misunderstand of past days that people thought punishment = difficulty. Just because you had a corpse run and XP loss didn't make games of the past more difficult, just more painful. I daresay that GW2 or TERA with active combat is more "difficult" in a way than, say, Everquest II, where your char just stood there spamming skills. That didn't require much thinking or tactics.
Also, MMOs of the first era were simply casual and solo unfriendly by enforcing people to group. That wasn't difficulty either, it was inflexibility.
Funny, I am almost old enough to be your dad, sonny. I played computer games when you still were a blink in the eyes of your dad, so don't educate me what difficult gaming is.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
The title could just as easy be I am SICK and TIRED of the "easy mode" crowd.
If your dying every five minutes Learn 2 Play and also having "grey" lower level mobs is useless I would rather be able to help out lower level friends and still get xp.
Another thing City of Heroes provided a solution for with difficulty sliders: 1-8 group size, and 1-4 level. So you could play the game on setting 1-1 and it would put you up against enemies spawned for 1 person at the same level or play on 8-4 and spawn enemies for a 8 person group at your level +4.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/The problem with the story instances is that unless you run a more survival orientated class then you tend to struggle until you get to the point where you have enough skill points to actually spec into something that can actually last more than 5 seconds as a squishy.
For me it's not actually "hard", it is sometimes just frustrating. You get bum rushed from time to time in enclosed areas so regardless of your ability to CC and heal as a squishy, you tend to get fucked over. That's not "hard" it is just annoying. In pvp the same occurs, but the thing is it is your own fault for getting hemmed in, in the story mode, it leaves you no choice.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
LOL absolutely relevant and great
omg that was funny +1
I see what you are saying but I think you are trying to split hairs here or logically troll the debate.
Lets start with Webster's definiton ... Difficult = hard to deal with, manage or overcome.
Anything the makes an MMO easier by simple logic makes it less difficult. You may not respect or appreciated the difficulty of older MMOs, but it is simply untrue to claim that the risk/challenge and even cumbersome UI didn't make it more difficult to succeed at reaching max level / end game.
We both agree that older MMOs had more punishment. Now lets look at that for a second and see how punshment plays out and adds to difficulty.
To be punished you had to have failed at something. The punishment was tied to your failure to keep your character alive while trying to overcome the challenge of the game/ encounters/ dungeons / Raids and sometimes other players.
Back in the day, beyond just the fate of your unstable internet connection you were challenged with having to manage the risk to your character very carefully, you had to be painfully aware of your surroundings, you had to accurately gauge the strength, number and abilities of your adversaries and work tightly with your group mates.
Failure directly impacted your ability to progress your character through XP loss, loss of corpses and gear. If you failed more often than you succeeded then your character would almost cease to exist being forever trapped at level 1. it was common to requires 5-10 successful encounters to replace the lost Xp from a single failure.
Nowdays... Challenge and Punishment has been stripped away and all that is left is a negligible repair costs and 2 minute travel time back to where you died.
So you are not significantly challenged to manager the risk to your character because it is almost non existent. Not to mention the game and content have been adjusted to limit the amount of your attention needed while playing.
Today the MMO challenge is simple, show up and login, the Trinity is gone so there is not complicated grouping required to be successful, the skills are streamlined so you don't need to manage as many abilities, the death penalty is removed so you are free to fail as much as you want. When content is designed to have anything more than a passing challenge players cry out that it is unfair and descriminatory.
In a sarcastic extreme....Given the law of averages you could advance your character to max level by simply rolling your face across your keyboard if you had the patience to do it long enough. The rewards are so high that a single success can cover a dozens failures. There is little risk and defeat costs you just couple minutes interuption as you run back to throw yourself blindly back into the fray.
Everyone plays games for different reason and many of us want something more than an easy win to occupy are time.
This is pure gold. Thanks for the great laugh.
That's true. Imagine the complaints Pac-Man would get if it released today. And if that's not scary enough, imagine them adding a cash shop.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Hilarious!
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Holy shit that had me laughing. And yeah, I'd say that's relevant alright. Thanks a lot for sharing.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
WOW is already doing this.
Three levels of raid difficulties: LFR, normal and hard.
Servers not few instanced raids. I think rutaq is already aware that many mmorpg's provide 2-3 difficulty setting for raids and / or dungeons. Usually with hardmodes or nightmare modes, etc
Well that is not enough for him and many people who are talking about difficuly and challenge.
You argumented many times before that 'WoW is not easy', 'WoW alrady scale diffuicly", etc
because it has diffrent difficuly sets raids and some heroic dungeons.
Ok.
You're still stubborndly ignore fact that most people telling in those forums about difficulty, challange, etc mean whole game experience or open world.
Huge majority of people you argument with does NOT mean raids or other instances.
So replying that there are few instanced differnt difficulty level raids to someone that is telling about diffrent difficulty servers is actually close to trolling.
Damn I actually imagined that. Almost made me laugh histericaly
;p
No. They said "MMO is too easy" or "games are too easy". Obviously those statements are wrong. Now if they point out the leveling in WOW from 1-85 is too easy .... that is another story.
In fact, you are not them, how would you know if they are misinformed, or they are talking about questing?
And at the end game ....
1) PvE has difficulty scale, and
2) PvP BG and arena is never easy obviously.
And MOST part of the game (like WOW) is played at the end game. So characterizing WOW as easy, while a large part of what people do are not, is not accurate.
And you never see me argue about "quest leveling is too easy" (except may in D3 ... you will die in hell mode if you are not careful, or not gearing up properly).
*Some* parts of *some* games are obviously too difficult.
Examples:
1) hard mode raiding in WOW, when the raid was first released.
2) Inferno mode in D3, in the beginning.
Thus, lots of people complained, and Blizz FIXED them.
Sorry but I can only think of one maybe two MMO's made in the last five years that were not easy mode. This is proof positive that the devs do not listen to those who want harder MMO's. If you want to be THE hero read a book where you are the hero or play a solo game that casts you in that role.
There are other players in MMO's and they can help or hinder you as you progress. I guess the clue is in 'Multiplayer', it is a bit like this forum you don't play on your own here either.
Hmm .. i *can* be a hero playing MMOs with scripted events. Why shouldn't i?
For me in an mmo, you are the "hero", "villain" or just a character that stands out in one way or another dependant upon how you are doing in relation to and in the respect of, the other players.
People who lead and organised the pvp, people who first discovered certain locations, people who provided the best crafting services or dominated the markets. Guilds that made a name for themselves, e-sport players who constantly topped the charts. The people best at their class/playstyle.
In my opinion it is questionable how you can be the "hero" (I hate to use terms like that when talking about games but I mean it purely within the context of games) in a massively multiplayer online game when you simply do a quest/quest line every other Tom, Dick and Harry has done over 9000 times before.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."