Originally posted by Tibernicus Unfortunately there are a few. Seems they couldn't completely abandon the WoW crowd and the features they like.
How is this a bad thing?
Because instancing is a lazy mechanics usually reserved for when devs can't figure out how to properly balance sometthing. All the best dungeons in the history of the genre have NOT been instanced.
lol..What does a zergfest have to do with balance..Its much harder to actually balance a dungeon for a group then simply putting a bunch of mobs in there, and not worrying about it. If enough players are there it will be easy. If few are there it will be hard. You definetelly have that turned around in your mind. ANd what dungeons are you referring to that are not instanced..Example...
In traditional MMOs, it wouldn't be a zerg fest, only groups would stay together and go through their own wings of the dungeon. Other games had mechanics in place to prevent zergs from clearing out a dungeon, don't know how GW2 would do it, but rather than slapping instancing on it, they should have actually tried to find a way.
Examples? Every dungeon in EverQuest. Every dungeon in Ultima Online.
Some of the most legendary dungeons, Blackburrow, Stonehenge, Caer Sidi, Avalon City, Darkness Falls, every dungeon in Vanguard, big huge masterpiece dungeons, none instanced. Because the devs actually tried.
Everquest introduced Instanced dungeons with Dungeons of Norrath.. ALthough in my opinion those are not very good examples of modern games. I never liked either game.
Code added to instances Is referring to the additional events I guess. It is neither more or less complex, it is however has the luxury of being more complex due to the luxury of not having to be generic. This is unless the instance has been designed as part of an end-game addictive treadmill where addictive qualities rule over unique qualities.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Tibernicus Unfortunately there are a few. Seems they couldn't completely abandon the WoW crowd and the features they like.
How is this a bad thing?
Because instancing is a lazy mechanics usually reserved for when devs can't figure out how to properly balance sometthing. All the best dungeons in the history of the genre have NOT been instanced.
lol..What does a zergfest have to do with balance..Its much harder to actually balance a dungeon for a group then simply putting a bunch of mobs in there, and not worrying about it. If enough players are there it will be easy. If few are there it will be hard. You definetelly have that turned around in your mind. ANd what dungeons are you referring to that are not instanced..Example...
In traditional MMOs, it wouldn't be a zerg fest, only groups would stay together and go through their own wings of the dungeon. Other games had mechanics in place to prevent zergs from clearing out a dungeon, don't know how GW2 would do it, but rather than slapping instancing on it, they should have actually tried to find a way.
Examples? Every dungeon in EverQuest. Every dungeon in Ultima Online.
Some of the most legendary dungeons, Blackburrow, Stonehenge, Caer Sidi, Avalon City, Darkness Falls, every dungeon in Vanguard, big huge masterpiece dungeons, none instanced. Because the devs actually tried.
There is nothing Legendary about those dungeons. I played Vanguard. ANd what does instancing have to do with the size of the dungeon. It just means either the dungeon is part of the world..or it is generated as a private instance where only you and your group are in it. Any dungeon in Vanguard could be exactly copied as an instanced dungeon. Instancing changes absolutely nothing but the number of people in the dungeon.
Originally posted by Tibernicus Unfortunately there are a few. Seems they couldn't completely abandon the WoW crowd and the features they like.
How is this a bad thing?
Because instancing is a lazy mechanics usually reserved for when devs can't figure out how to properly balance sometthing. All the best dungeons in the history of the genre have NOT been instanced.
lol..What does a zergfest have to do with balance..Its much harder to actually balance a dungeon for a group then simply putting a bunch of mobs in there, and not worrying about it. If enough players are there it will be easy. If few are there it will be hard. You definetelly have that turned around in your mind. ANd what dungeons are you referring to that are not instanced..Example...
In traditional MMOs, it wouldn't be a zerg fest, only groups would stay together and go through their own wings of the dungeon. Other games had mechanics in place to prevent zergs from clearing out a dungeon, don't know how GW2 would do it, but rather than slapping instancing on it, they should have actually tried to find a way.
Examples? Every dungeon in EverQuest. Every dungeon in Ultima Online.
Some of the most legendary dungeons, Blackburrow, Stonehenge, Caer Sidi, Avalon City, Darkness Falls, every dungeon in Vanguard, big huge masterpiece dungeons, none instanced. Because the devs actually tried.
Actually, instancing adds code to the build therefore is more work. Nice try. Well, lazy try really.
It adds simple code. I'm talking design and AI work that instancing lets developers avoid. Far more substantial than a little bit of code. Nice try though.
Originally posted by dbgager
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by dbgager
Vanguard ,,yes..But I can not think of any other MMOs with non instanced dungeons. I played Vanguard for a long time by the way...and I can not think of anything very memorable about the dungeons. Just a continuation of the world. An instanced dungeon is able to control your experience, and the challenge much better than a dungeon where they have no idea how many players will be in it, at any time.
I just named like, 8 MMOs.
And I doubt you played Vanguard if there was "nothing memorable" about the dungeons.
Played Vanguard...not memorable...went in 2 different dungeons dont remember their names. I think vanguard itself was too cartoony for me...didnt like the graphics. What I will agree with is that some of the best dungeons were not instanced. I happen to like all the dungeons from Anarchy Online as candidates for best dungeons ever. Although they were semi-instanced, they weren't actually instanced....meaning several different groups could be in the same instance at a time.
Originally posted by Tibernicus Unfortunately there are a few. Seems they couldn't completely abandon the WoW crowd and the features they like.
How is this a bad thing?
Because instancing is a lazy mechanics usually reserved for when devs can't figure out how to properly balance sometthing. All the best dungeons in the history of the genre have NOT been instanced.
lol..What does a zergfest have to do with balance..Its much harder to actually balance a dungeon for a group then simply putting a bunch of mobs in there, and not worrying about it. If enough players are there it will be easy. If few are there it will be hard. You definetelly have that turned around in your mind. ANd what dungeons are you referring to that are not instanced..Example...
In traditional MMOs, it wouldn't be a zerg fest, only groups would stay together and go through their own wings of the dungeon. Other games had mechanics in place to prevent zergs from clearing out a dungeon, don't know how GW2 would do it, but rather than slapping instancing on it, they should have actually tried to find a way.
Examples? Every dungeon in EverQuest. Every dungeon in Ultima Online.
Some of the most legendary dungeons, Blackburrow, Stonehenge, Caer Sidi, Avalon City, Darkness Falls, every dungeon in Vanguard, big huge masterpiece dungeons, none instanced. Because the devs actually tried.
Actually, instancing adds code to the build therefore is more work. Nice try. Well, lazy try really.
It adds simple code. I'm talking design and AI work that instancing lets developers avoid. Far more substantial than a little bit of code. Nice try though.
Originally posted by dbgager
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by dbgager
Vanguard ,,yes..But I can not think of any other MMOs with non instanced dungeons. I played Vanguard for a long time by the way...and I can not think of anything very memorable about the dungeons. Just a continuation of the world. An instanced dungeon is able to control your experience, and the challenge much better than a dungeon where they have no idea how many players will be in it, at any time.
I just named like, 8 MMOs.
And I doubt you played Vanguard if there was "nothing memorable" about the dungeons.
You are talking about AI. You are so full of crap.
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it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
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Originally posted by Tibernicus Unfortunately there are a few. Seems they couldn't completely abandon the WoW crowd and the features they like.
Aw come on, GW2 is a fantastic and fun game but who doesn't love a good old-fashioned dungeon stomp every once in a while?
A good old fashioned dungeon stomp would be one that isn't instanced. And I love those.
Instanced dungeons are generally anti social, linear, simple affairs that break your connection with the world.
@ the first comment, it's impossible to harm a game by adding more optional variety. That comment is downright silly. If you don't want to do a particular feature, you certainly don't have to. You aren't put at any disadvantage by choosing not to do so.
@ your fears about typical dungeons.
The anti social fear is simply not applicable here. I've been pleasantly surprised by how well each of my 6 groups have communicated thus far. The absence of many dungeon finder features fascilitates this. People lfg the good ol' fashioned way, which breaks the ice and gets people talking before you ever set foot in the dungeon. Then the dungeon difficulty dictates that players continue to communicate. Once you learn how integral executing certain combos are (ie boosting everyone with 20+ stacks of might on the pull, increasing the duration of chill on a particularly deadly melee mob so you can kite for extended periods of time, aoe blasting water fields to burst heal multiple wounded players, or aoe stealthing to completely regroup) the level of comunication only increases. I've even joined pug vent servers just to communicate more efficiently, something I've never done in previous MMOs.
Linearity:
I'll concede linearity, although I and many others don't consider this a bad thing. You are given 3 different story options in explorable mode, all of which take you to completely different areas than story mode. So each dungeon as a whole is by no means linear, but each individual path certainly is.
Breaks connection with the world:
This is a MAJOR gripe I have with dungeons is many other MMOs. In other games, you're given little context as to what that dungeon is, why it's located where it is, and what your purpose is within it. This is absolutely NOT the case in GW2. You're provided with a lore based introduction to every dungeon. Your personal story intertwines with the stories of the dungeon. Then, within the dungeons, you go on story adventures, complete with dialogue and cutscenes. The dungeons are very real parts of the world in GW2.
It's not like you magically teleport there by clicking on a dungeon finder button and have no idea what you're doing there or where in the world you even are.
If you simply dislike the fact that you have to go through a portal to get there, then I don't know what to tell you. I think you're nitpicking at that point. A 5 second loading screen shouldn't completely destroy your connection with the area.
As for completely open world dungeons, GW2 also has plenty of those. Numerous jumping puzzle chambers and other puzzle chambers require teamwork to complete and even have boss fights.
Instanced dungeons are always boring. In a true MMORPG they should be part of the persistent virtual world. Former WoW players that wants instanced content? I dont think other developers should think abouth them at all... Those players can always return to WoW if a new game and its developers does nothing to cater to them...
There is a difference between formal wow players that understand how poor wow instances are and those that don't:) I am in the former camp, and I love gw2 and everything it has to offer including its flavour of instances which is a totally different beast. Better still, in gw2 you are not put at a disadvantage if you don't fancy doing instances. What is wrong is when a person says they think instances should not be in gw2, because it does not personally appeal. That's a selfish view that is at odds with the gw2 philosophy.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom Code added to instances Is referring to the additional events I guess. It is neither more or less complex, it is however has the luxury of being more complex due to the luxury of not having to be generic. This is unless the instance has been designed as part of an end-game addictive treadmill where addictive qualities rule over unique qualities.
Non instanced dungeons can be just as complex, if not more complex, than instanced ones, it just takes more skill and better design work, hence why most devs just slap instances on it and say "good enough".
DAoC had some of the best raids in the history of the genre and they weren't instanced. They programmed dynamic AI into the encounters.
Originally posted by Tibernicus Unfortunately there are a few. Seems they couldn't completely abandon the WoW crowd and the features they like.
How is this a bad thing?
Because instancing is a lazy mechanics usually reserved for when devs can't figure out how to properly balance sometthing. All the best dungeons in the history of the genre have NOT been instanced.
lol..What does a zergfest have to do with balance..Its much harder to actually balance a dungeon for a group then simply putting a bunch of mobs in there, and not worrying about it. If enough players are there it will be easy. If few are there it will be hard. You definetelly have that turned around in your mind. ANd what dungeons are you referring to that are not instanced..Example...
In traditional MMOs, it wouldn't be a zerg fest, only groups would stay together and go through their own wings of the dungeon. Other games had mechanics in place to prevent zergs from clearing out a dungeon, don't know how GW2 would do it, but rather than slapping instancing on it, they should have actually tried to find a way.
Examples? Every dungeon in EverQuest. Every dungeon in Ultima Online.
Some of the most legendary dungeons, Blackburrow, Stonehenge, Caer Sidi, Avalon City, Darkness Falls, every dungeon in Vanguard, big huge masterpiece dungeons, none instanced. Because the devs actually tried.
There is nothing Legendary about those dungeons. I played Vanguard. ANd what does instancing have to do with the size of the dungeon. It just means either the dungeon is part of the world..or it is generated as a private instance where only you and your group are in it. Any dungeon in Vanguard could be exactly copied as an instanced dungeon. Instancing changes absolutely nothing but the number of people in the dungeon.
Instanced dungeons tend to be gimmicky and underdeveloped. Not to mention dungeons feel a lot less epic when they don't have many people in them. And yes, those dungeons are legendary. Caer Sidi was probably the hardest raid in the history of DAoC, which means its automatically harder than any raid in WoW or its clones.
Originally posted by Tibernicus Unfortunately there are a few. Seems they couldn't completely abandon the WoW crowd and the features they like.
How is this a bad thing?
Because instancing is a lazy mechanics usually reserved for when devs can't figure out how to properly balance sometthing. All the best dungeons in the history of the genre have NOT been instanced.
lol..What does a zergfest have to do with balance..Its much harder to actually balance a dungeon for a group then simply putting a bunch of mobs in there, and not worrying about it. If enough players are there it will be easy. If few are there it will be hard. You definetelly have that turned around in your mind. ANd what dungeons are you referring to that are not instanced..Example...
In traditional MMOs, it wouldn't be a zerg fest, only groups would stay together and go through their own wings of the dungeon. Other games had mechanics in place to prevent zergs from clearing out a dungeon, don't know how GW2 would do it, but rather than slapping instancing on it, they should have actually tried to find a way.
Examples? Every dungeon in EverQuest. Every dungeon in Ultima Online.
Some of the most legendary dungeons, Blackburrow, Stonehenge, Caer Sidi, Avalon City, Darkness Falls, every dungeon in Vanguard, big huge masterpiece dungeons, none instanced. Because the devs actually tried.
Actually, instancing adds code to the build therefore is more work. Nice try. Well, lazy try really.
It adds simple code. I'm talking design and AI work that instancing lets developers avoid. Far more substantial than a little bit of code. Nice try though.
Originally posted by dbgager
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by dbgager
Vanguard ,,yes..But I can not think of any other MMOs with non instanced dungeons. I played Vanguard for a long time by the way...and I can not think of anything very memorable about the dungeons. Just a continuation of the world. An instanced dungeon is able to control your experience, and the challenge much better than a dungeon where they have no idea how many players will be in it, at any time.
I just named like, 8 MMOs.
And I doubt you played Vanguard if there was "nothing memorable" about the dungeons.
Played Vanguard...not memorable...went in 2 different dungeons dont remember their names. I think vanguard itself was too cartoony for me...didnt like the graphics.
...er... Vanguard doesn't have cartoony graphics. And they have upwards of 70 dungeons in the game, and you only saw two noobie dungeons and thought "not memorable" for the ENTIRE GAME?
Originally posted by Hurvart Instanced dungeons are always boring. In a true MMORPG they should be part of the persistent virtual world. Former WoW players that wants instanced content? I dont think other developers should think abouth them at all... Those players can always return to WoW if a new game and its developers does nothing to cater to them...
Originally posted by Tibernicus Unfortunately there are a few. Seems they couldn't completely abandon the WoW crowd and the features they like.
Aw come on, GW2 is a fantastic and fun game but who doesn't love a good old-fashioned dungeon stomp every once in a while?
A good old fashioned dungeon stomp would be one that isn't instanced. And I love those.
Instanced dungeons are generally anti social, linear, simple affairs that break your connection with the world.
Originally posted by dbgager
If the game was just dynamic events eventually it would get tedious. ArenaNEt was very intelligent to make the game more than one mechanic.. I stopped playing Rift after I got bored with Rifts. Done one Rift ..done them all.
The problem is that its instanced, not that its a challenging dungeon.
It isn't like you have to do them in this game considering the way they designed the game. Frankly they're a nice change of pace far as I'm concerned. Not like I would run them over and over again though.
I don't see why they needed to be instanced. I intially praised GW2 for the efforts it went to get people all in the same world together, but then it went an added instanced dungeons instead of the huge public dungeons that the best MMOs have.
That sounds pretty terrible. The Dynamic Events themselves are zerg fests. Seriously just take a moment and think about what Ascalonian Catacombs would be like if they were open. Would be PAINFUL and insanely chaotic
This is going to be burried under a mound of off topic bs, but i will say it anyway. AC is the first one you come to at 30 and you must run story mode your first time. At 35 you can run explorer mode and it is a whole lot harder and has 3 different paths, with 3 different sets of bosses. This is no run in the park and really requires and good team.
Originally posted by Tibernicus Unfortunately there are a few. Seems they couldn't completely abandon the WoW crowd and the features they like.
Aw come on, GW2 is a fantastic and fun game but who doesn't love a good old-fashioned dungeon stomp every once in a while?
A good old fashioned dungeon stomp would be one that isn't instanced. And I love those.
Instanced dungeons are generally anti social, linear, simple affairs that break your connection with the world.
Originally posted by dbgager
If the game was just dynamic events eventually it would get tedious. ArenaNEt was very intelligent to make the game more than one mechanic.. I stopped playing Rift after I got bored with Rifts. Done one Rift ..done them all.
The problem is that its instanced, not that its a challenging dungeon.
It isn't like you have to do them in this game considering the way they designed the game. Frankly they're a nice change of pace far as I'm concerned. Not like I would run them over and over again though.
I don't see why they needed to be instanced. I intially praised GW2 for the efforts it went to get people all in the same world together, but then it went an added instanced dungeons instead of the huge public dungeons that the best MMOs have.
That sounds pretty terrible. The Dynamic Events themselves are zerg fests. Seriously just take a moment and think about what Ascalonian Catacombs would be like if they were open. Would be PAINFUL and insanely chaotic
Its cute how the WoW generation denounces and entire feature without really understanding how it works...
It's not an on off switch, its a design philosophy. Instancing is the lazy way out.
Originally posted by bound4hades This is going to be burried under a mound of off topic bs, but i will say it anyway. AC is the first one you come to at 30 and you must run story mode your first time. At 35 you can run explorer mode and it is a whole lot harder and has 3 different paths, with 3 different sets of bosses. This is no run in the park and really requires and good team.
Never leave the important info behind.
How long might the seperate runs be time or lenght wise? Are the explorable versions bigger than the story mode versions? Thanks for the info.
Originally posted by Tibernicus Unfortunately there are a few. Seems they couldn't completely abandon the WoW crowd and the features they like.
Aw come on, GW2 is a fantastic and fun game but who doesn't love a good old-fashioned dungeon stomp every once in a while?
A good old fashioned dungeon stomp would be one that isn't instanced. And I love those.
Instanced dungeons are generally anti social, linear, simple affairs that break your connection with the world.
Originally posted by dbgager
If the game was just dynamic events eventually it would get tedious. ArenaNEt was very intelligent to make the game more than one mechanic.. I stopped playing Rift after I got bored with Rifts. Done one Rift ..done them all.
The problem is that its instanced, not that its a challenging dungeon.
It isn't like you have to do them in this game considering the way they designed the game. Frankly they're a nice change of pace far as I'm concerned. Not like I would run them over and over again though.
I don't see why they needed to be instanced. I intially praised GW2 for the efforts it went to get people all in the same world together, but then it went an added instanced dungeons instead of the huge public dungeons that the best MMOs have.
That sounds pretty terrible. The Dynamic Events themselves are zerg fests. Seriously just take a moment and think about what Ascalonian Catacombs would be like if they were open. Would be PAINFUL and insanely chaotic
Its cute how the WoW generation denounces and entire feature without really understanding how it works...
It's not an on off switch, its a design philosophy. Instancing is the lazy way out.
I wouldn't dismiss instanced dungeons so easily. They have their place. They are basically a throwback of sorts to the RPGs where a small party of heroes go into some bad guy's lair.
Besides that, the game does have a number of non-instanced dungeon-like areas already. Oola's Lab and Provernic Crypt, for example. Swashbucker's Cove, although considered a jump puzzle is more like an open dungeon than anything else.
Originally posted by Tibernicus Unfortunately there are a few. Seems they couldn't completely abandon the WoW crowd and the features they like.
Aw come on, GW2 is a fantastic and fun game but who doesn't love a good old-fashioned dungeon stomp every once in a while?
A good old fashioned dungeon stomp would be one that isn't instanced. And I love those.
Instanced dungeons are generally anti social, linear, simple affairs that break your connection with the world.
Originally posted by dbgager
If the game was just dynamic events eventually it would get tedious. ArenaNEt was very intelligent to make the game more than one mechanic.. I stopped playing Rift after I got bored with Rifts. Done one Rift ..done them all.
The problem is that its instanced, not that its a challenging dungeon.
Which game has these amazing open world dungeons that are challenging for all, no waits, no lines? There are many reasons to have grouped dungeons that are good. Anti-social? I'm starting to think there's a segment of loud mouthed mmo'ers who are nothing but exobitionists saying "Hey world here I am, see me! See me!" I've also heard for being wide open game, socializing in GW2 to is rather lean.
GW2 is instanced beyond just a handful of their instanced dungeons. Overflow server?
Originally posted by Tibernicus Unfortunately there are a few. Seems they couldn't completely abandon the WoW crowd and the features they like.
Aw come on, GW2 is a fantastic and fun game but who doesn't love a good old-fashioned dungeon stomp every once in a while?
A good old fashioned dungeon stomp would be one that isn't instanced. And I love those.
Instanced dungeons are generally anti social, linear, simple affairs that break your connection with the world.
Originally posted by dbgager
If the game was just dynamic events eventually it would get tedious. ArenaNEt was very intelligent to make the game more than one mechanic.. I stopped playing Rift after I got bored with Rifts. Done one Rift ..done them all.
The problem is that its instanced, not that its a challenging dungeon.
It isn't like you have to do them in this game considering the way they designed the game. Frankly they're a nice change of pace far as I'm concerned. Not like I would run them over and over again though.
I don't see why they needed to be instanced. I intially praised GW2 for the efforts it went to get people all in the same world together, but then it went an added instanced dungeons instead of the huge public dungeons that the best MMOs have.
That sounds pretty terrible. The Dynamic Events themselves are zerg fests. Seriously just take a moment and think about what Ascalonian Catacombs would be like if they were open. Would be PAINFUL and insanely chaotic
Its cute how the WoW generation denounces and entire feature without really understanding how it works...
It's not an on off switch, its a design philosophy. Instancing is the lazy way out.
I wouldn't dismiss instanced dungeons so easily. They have their place. They are basically a throwback of sorts to the RPGs where a small party of heroes go into some bad guy's lair.
Besides that, the game does have a number of non-instanced dungeon-like areas already. Oola's Lab and Provernic Crypt, for example. Swashbucker's Cove, although considered a jump puzzle is more like an open dungeon than anything else.
And there needs to be more. Instances have their place, in one or two zones. but by and large, they shouldn't be used.
The problem is, devs use them as a get out of jail free card and slap them over everything at the expense of the game, because solving those problems via design is "too hard".
Originally posted by Tibernicus Unfortunately there are a few. Seems they couldn't completely abandon the WoW crowd and the features they like.
Aw come on, GW2 is a fantastic and fun game but who doesn't love a good old-fashioned dungeon stomp every once in a while?
A good old fashioned dungeon stomp would be one that isn't instanced. And I love those.
Instanced dungeons are generally anti social, linear, simple affairs that break your connection with the world.
Originally posted by dbgager
If the game was just dynamic events eventually it would get tedious. ArenaNEt was very intelligent to make the game more than one mechanic.. I stopped playing Rift after I got bored with Rifts. Done one Rift ..done them all.
The problem is that its instanced, not that its a challenging dungeon.
Which game has these amazing open world dungeons that are challenging for all, no waits, no lines? There are many reasons to have grouped dungeons that are good. Anti-social? I'm starting to think there's a segment of loud mouthed mmo'ers who are nothing but exobitionists saying "Hey world here I am, see me! See me!" I've also heard for being wide open game, socializing in GW2 to is rather lean.
Which games? Dark Age of Camelot. Darkfall. Vanguard. Just a few off the top of my head.
And yes anti-social. MMORPGs are meant to be played in a virtual world, not a private playground.
And there needs to be more. Instances have their place, in one or two zones. but by and large, they shouldn't be used.
The problem is, devs use them as a get out of jail free card and slap them over everything at the expense of the game, because solving those problems via design is "too hard".
Personally, I like a nice instance. If you have immersion problems, consider that the world is a large enough place that the chance of actually running into someone else when doing a dungeon in the middle of nowhere is next to nil. Instances simulate that. They also provide something beneficial to people who like a more tuned challenge. Seems like a pretty sensible design for those two issues to me.
That said, they have what...8 dungeons in the whole game? Something like that. So I think you are really overreacting when you say they are getting "slap[ped] over everything at the expense of the game". Seriously. There's more non-instanced group stuff honestly. Oola's lab is right next to a long jumping puzzle that I did over several hours with some other people...oh, and there's a boss at the end. Seems like there's rapidly going to be more than 8 sorts of things like that.
Vanguard ,,yes..But I can not think of any other MMOs with non instanced dungeons.
Everquest 2.
It had the best of both world. Large, static dungeons and instanced dungeons that were sometimes filled with puzzles to go through. Unrest is one of my favorite dungeons of all time (partially because they absolutely NAILED it's design from EQ1, but it was not easy to work through)
Everquest introduced Instanced dungeons with Dungeons of Norrath.. ALthough in my opinion those are not very good examples of modern games. I never liked either game.
And its still the best instanced dngeon system ever implemented. Why? Because there was a random factor. You didnt know the mob layout, or where the nameds were. There were about 50 different room layouts as well. It also played to EQ's strengths, because a good dungeon crawl is where EQ's group mechanics really shined. To this day no game has come close to EQ's group mechanics.
Comments
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Everquest introduced Instanced dungeons with Dungeons of Norrath.. ALthough in my opinion those are not very good examples of modern games. I never liked either game.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
There is nothing Legendary about those dungeons. I played Vanguard. ANd what does instancing have to do with the size of the dungeon. It just means either the dungeon is part of the world..or it is generated as a private instance where only you and your group are in it. Any dungeon in Vanguard could be exactly copied as an instanced dungeon. Instancing changes absolutely nothing but the number of people in the dungeon.
Played Vanguard...not memorable...went in 2 different dungeons dont remember their names. I think vanguard itself was too cartoony for me...didnt like the graphics. What I will agree with is that some of the best dungeons were not instanced. I happen to like all the dungeons from Anarchy Online as candidates for best dungeons ever. Although they were semi-instanced, they weren't actually instanced....meaning several different groups could be in the same instance at a time.
You are talking about AI. You are so full of crap.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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@ the first comment, it's impossible to harm a game by adding more optional variety. That comment is downright silly. If you don't want to do a particular feature, you certainly don't have to. You aren't put at any disadvantage by choosing not to do so.
@ your fears about typical dungeons.
The anti social fear is simply not applicable here. I've been pleasantly surprised by how well each of my 6 groups have communicated thus far. The absence of many dungeon finder features fascilitates this. People lfg the good ol' fashioned way, which breaks the ice and gets people talking before you ever set foot in the dungeon. Then the dungeon difficulty dictates that players continue to communicate. Once you learn how integral executing certain combos are (ie boosting everyone with 20+ stacks of might on the pull, increasing the duration of chill on a particularly deadly melee mob so you can kite for extended periods of time, aoe blasting water fields to burst heal multiple wounded players, or aoe stealthing to completely regroup) the level of comunication only increases. I've even joined pug vent servers just to communicate more efficiently, something I've never done in previous MMOs.
Linearity:
I'll concede linearity, although I and many others don't consider this a bad thing. You are given 3 different story options in explorable mode, all of which take you to completely different areas than story mode. So each dungeon as a whole is by no means linear, but each individual path certainly is.
Breaks connection with the world:
This is a MAJOR gripe I have with dungeons is many other MMOs. In other games, you're given little context as to what that dungeon is, why it's located where it is, and what your purpose is within it. This is absolutely NOT the case in GW2. You're provided with a lore based introduction to every dungeon. Your personal story intertwines with the stories of the dungeon. Then, within the dungeons, you go on story adventures, complete with dialogue and cutscenes. The dungeons are very real parts of the world in GW2.
It's not like you magically teleport there by clicking on a dungeon finder button and have no idea what you're doing there or where in the world you even are.
If you simply dislike the fact that you have to go through a portal to get there, then I don't know what to tell you. I think you're nitpicking at that point. A 5 second loading screen shouldn't completely destroy your connection with the area.
As for completely open world dungeons, GW2 also has plenty of those. Numerous jumping puzzle chambers and other puzzle chambers require teamwork to complete and even have boss fights.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Non instanced dungeons can be just as complex, if not more complex, than instanced ones, it just takes more skill and better design work, hence why most devs just slap instances on it and say "good enough".
DAoC had some of the best raids in the history of the genre and they weren't instanced. They programmed dynamic AI into the encounters.
Instanced dungeons tend to be gimmicky and underdeveloped. Not to mention dungeons feel a lot less epic when they don't have many people in them. And yes, those dungeons are legendary. Caer Sidi was probably the hardest raid in the history of DAoC, which means its automatically harder than any raid in WoW or its clones.
...er... Vanguard doesn't have cartoony graphics. And they have upwards of 70 dungeons in the game, and you only saw two noobie dungeons and thought "not memorable" for the ENTIRE GAME?
This is how the WoW generation thinks people.
This.
That sounds pretty terrible. The Dynamic Events themselves are zerg fests. Seriously just take a moment and think about what Ascalonian Catacombs would be like if they were open. Would be PAINFUL and insanely chaotic
Its cute how the WoW generation denounces and entire feature without really understanding how it works...
It's not an on off switch, its a design philosophy. Instancing is the lazy way out.
Never leave the important info behind.
How long might the seperate runs be time or lenght wise? Are the explorable versions bigger than the story mode versions? Thanks for the info.
I wouldn't dismiss instanced dungeons so easily. They have their place. They are basically a throwback of sorts to the RPGs where a small party of heroes go into some bad guy's lair.
Besides that, the game does have a number of non-instanced dungeon-like areas already. Oola's Lab and Provernic Crypt, for example. Swashbucker's Cove, although considered a jump puzzle is more like an open dungeon than anything else.
Which game has these amazing open world dungeons that are challenging for all, no waits, no lines? There are many reasons to have grouped dungeons that are good. Anti-social? I'm starting to think there's a segment of loud mouthed mmo'ers who are nothing but exobitionists saying "Hey world here I am, see me! See me!" I've also heard for being wide open game, socializing in GW2 to is rather lean.
GW2 is instanced beyond just a handful of their instanced dungeons. Overflow server?
And there needs to be more. Instances have their place, in one or two zones. but by and large, they shouldn't be used.
The problem is, devs use them as a get out of jail free card and slap them over everything at the expense of the game, because solving those problems via design is "too hard".
Which games? Dark Age of Camelot. Darkfall. Vanguard. Just a few off the top of my head.
And yes anti-social. MMORPGs are meant to be played in a virtual world, not a private playground.
Personally, I like a nice instance. If you have immersion problems, consider that the world is a large enough place that the chance of actually running into someone else when doing a dungeon in the middle of nowhere is next to nil. Instances simulate that. They also provide something beneficial to people who like a more tuned challenge. Seems like a pretty sensible design for those two issues to me.
That said, they have what...8 dungeons in the whole game? Something like that. So I think you are really overreacting when you say they are getting "slap[ped] over everything at the expense of the game". Seriously. There's more non-instanced group stuff honestly. Oola's lab is right next to a long jumping puzzle that I did over several hours with some other people...oh, and there's a boss at the end. Seems like there's rapidly going to be more than 8 sorts of things like that.
So don't be so melodramatic about it.
Everquest 2.
It had the best of both world. Large, static dungeons and instanced dungeons that were sometimes filled with puzzles to go through. Unrest is one of my favorite dungeons of all time (partially because they absolutely NAILED it's design from EQ1, but it was not easy to work through)
And its still the best instanced dngeon system ever implemented. Why? Because there was a random factor. You didnt know the mob layout, or where the nameds were. There were about 50 different room layouts as well. It also played to EQ's strengths, because a good dungeon crawl is where EQ's group mechanics really shined. To this day no game has come close to EQ's group mechanics.