While I can't say I disagree with you that wasn't really the tone of my post .. My point was I highly doubt the threads claiming the game isn't innovation came before those that did .( in regards to the person I quoted ).
So if you are going to claim that standpoint you can not be surprised or shocked or angry if people argue or disagree said claim .
Myself personally I don't see how it matters in the grand scheme of things .. It's just a game .. I will enjoy it or I won't , when I'm bored I will leave .. I have no emotional attachment to it or any game either good or bad .
I guess some people have the need to feel they are part of something special .. while to me it's nothing more than a game *shrugs*
Or it might be because the game is so blatantly innovative and people want to attack it. When you have to point to 5+ games to say "see, it isn't innovative, it's combining and improving all these elemetns from all these games!" the argument has been lost. But there will be people who don't like GW2 or don't like people calling it innovative, or see some similar things and decided that it can't be innovative, or for whom GW2 isn't their dream MMO and hence it can't be innovative, etc, etc. So some will insist on saying it is the same old, same old, for whatver reasons they have even when it is obviously not. Can't really say which came first.
But, I think intellectual integrity and the truth matters, so it is worth having the discussion for this reason.
Another thread where people name a dozen games and several genres to describe everything GW2 does and then proceed to say there is no innovation while choosing to ignore some aspects like depositing to the storage or receiving maill from everywhere.
Maybe if the threads stopped proclaiming all the things it innovates people wouldn't feel the need to argue ... but ofc it's the people who disagree's fault and not those who keep saying " it's a revolution " right ?
Seriously you walk into a bar and claim " Donald Duck was the first man on the moon " don't be surprised if people argue with you
People should just enjoy the damn game already and stop trying to worship the golden calf
MMO players scare me sometimes , their actions are borderline cultish
Sometimes the sum of all parts exceed the parts.
Just because many of the things GW2 have been done before in a way or another, the fact is that they either haven't been done just like GW2 does it and/or they haven't been done at the same time in the same game.
Being able to take a photo of the amazing place you are with your mobile and send it to another person as you talk to them expressing what you feel in the moment, will be a complete difference from talking and then show them the photo when you arrive to your hotel.
People try to simply look at the parts individually, when it is the way they all work together at the same time that makes it different.
One doesn't need new, never done before things/ideas to innovate - sometimes all that it takes is just putting the pieces in a different way.
While I can't say I disagree with you that wasn't really the tone of my post .. My point was I highly doubt the threads claiming the game isn't innovation came before those that did .( in regards to the person I quoted ).
So if you are going to claim that standpoint you can not be surprised or shocked or angry if people argue or disagree said claim .
Myself personally I don't see how it matters in the grand scheme of things .. It's just a game .. I will enjoy it or I won't , when I'm bored I will leave .. I have no emotional attachment to it or any game either good or bad .
I guess some people have the need to feel they are part of something special .. while to me it's nothing more than a game *shrugs*
Considering I didn't say it is revolutionary or expressed any shock or anger, I don't understand your post.
I'm not sure and don't care if the game is evolutionary, is revolutionary, is the second coming, is the WoW killer or whatever.
It is a great fun game, that plays differently from any other MMORPG I played and that for my own tastes it is the one that gives me the most (and give me things no other MMORPG gave me before, so I do see innovation especially in how I play the game and in how I interact with others around me).
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
GW2 did not make anything new for their game, they simply took things from others and turned it into a game of their own. Very much like WoW did actually.
There you go, next time lead with that, instead of a leading question you believe you already have the answer to.
Now--name one thing that WoW truly innovated.
You'll notice that if you start at our end (MMOs at +15 years from their birth).
Every MMO starts with state-of-the-art (for their given year), and builds modification and expansion around what came before.
Nothing, not one damn thing, in Vanilla WoW existed only in Vanilla WoW. It drew bits and pieces from at least a half-dozen prior games, and made decisions of what to keep/improve and what to discard/remove.
8 years later, you still cannot find much in WoW that didn't already exist elsewhere in the MMO universe. Blizzard just tends to take existing ideas and polish them.
The same thing, it seems, you want to level some sort of accusation at Anet for doing? Or Funcom. Or EA. Or SoE. Or anyone else. The same thing everyone in the industry is doing, and always has?
Does anyone think that UO did not 'cop' previous work? Really?
Pretty pointless observation, no? "People using this 'innovation' word are being trendy, but not really staking any argument'."
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Considering I didn't say it is revolutionary or expressed any shock or anger, I don't understand your post.
I'm not sure and don't care if the game is evolutionary, is revolutionary, is the second coming, is the WoW killer or whatever.
It is a great fun game, that plays differently from any other MMORPG I played and that for my own tastes it is the one that gives me the most (and give me things no other MMORPG gave me before, so I do see innovation especially in how I play the game and in how I interact with others around me).
Sorry it was a general " You " aimed at the masses .. not a personal " You " aimed at yourself
GW2 did not make anything new for their game, they simply took things from others and turned it into a game of their own. Very much like WoW did actually.
There you go, next time lead with that, instead of a leading question you believe you already have the answer to.
Now--name one thing that WoW truly innovated.
You'll notice that if you start at our end (MMOs at +15 years from their birth) and work backwards towards UO, actualy original 'innovations' are extraordinarily hard to find. Ever MMO starts with state-of-the-art (for their given year), and builds modification and expansion around what came before.
Nothing, not one damn thing, in Vanilla WoW existed only in Vanilla WoW. It drew bits and pieces from at least a half-dozen prior games, and made decisions of what to keep/improve and what to discard/remove.
8 years later, you still cannot find much in WoW that didn't already exist elsewhere in the MMO universe. Blizzard just tends to take existing ideas and polish them.
The same thing, it seems, you want to level some sort of accusation at Anet for doing. Or Funcom. Or EA. Or SoE. Or anyone else.
Hard to find? They are non-existent using the OP's standards. Heck, non-existent in almost any field or subject or item or invention in human history.
UO and EQ? They didn't innovate one dang thing. Nothing in them that wasn't in MUDS and CRPGs, really. I'm sure we could name 6 or so games/genres they took elements from. Heck, we could probably do the same with the first manned mission to the Moon.
Hard to find? They are non-existent using the OP's standards. Heck, non-existent in almost any field or subject or item or invention in human history.
Exactly. Why spin our tires in this mud at all?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I don't feel the true innovation For me the experince is same as a typical themepark MMOS. I run around, do DE's, go to a scout who marks events on my map..i complete heart events, look for another scout..rinse and repeat. Do some more DE's..and so on.
Even Vistas, point of interest are marked on the map so not much left to mystery of exploring either. But that doesn't mean game isn't fun. But i mostly roll my eyes when read words like 'innovation'...'savior' etc.
I don't feel the true innovation For me the experince is same as a typical themepark MMOS. I run around, do DE's, go to a scout who marks events on my map..i complete heart events, look for another scout..rinse and repeat. Do some more DE's..and so on.
Even Vistas, point of interest are marked on the map so not much left to mystery of exploring either. But that doesn't mean game isn't fun. But i mostly roll my eyes when read words like 'innovation'...'savior' etc.
I didn't realize you did DEs in other MMOs or went looking for scouts to give you overviews of the area. Or vistas for that matter.
I don't feel the true innovation For me the experince is same as a typical themepark MMOS. I run around, do DE's, go to a scout who marks events on my map..i complete heart events, look for another scout..rinse and repeat. Do some more DE's..and so on.
Even Vistas, point of interest are marked on the map so not much left to mystery of exploring either. But that doesn't mean game isn't fun. But i mostly roll my eyes when read words like 'innovation'...'savior' etc.
The problem started with ANet's Manifesto... a select group of people became very excited about the video and started posting things like the stuff we're all rolling our eyes at, but it became gospel for some people who followed the game, and now we have a ton of "It's not that innovative" threads like the OP's who are attacking the views of people who probably don't even remember their enthusiasm and just annoying the rest of us.
I don't feel the true innovation For me the experince is same as a typical themepark MMOS. I run around, do DE's, go to a scout who marks events on my map..i complete heart events, look for another scout..rinse and repeat. Do some more DE's..and so on.
Even Vistas, point of interest are marked on the map so not much left to mystery of exploring either. But that doesn't mean game isn't fun. But i mostly roll my eyes when read words like 'innovation'...'savior' etc.
I didn't realize you did DEs in other MMOs or went looking for scouts to give you overviews of the area. Or vistas for that matter.
I did De's in Rift, Scouts are like quest givers, i did lots of exploration in games like Vanguard, EQ and EQ2 and not everything was marked on the map. Not saying you don't find some puzzles on ocassion while exploring but MAP by default is cluttered with too much information for explorer type.
now we have a ton of "It's not that innovative" threads like the OP's who are attacking the views of people who probably don't even remember their enthusiasm and just annoying the rest of us.
Really, it isn't "it's not that innovative" threads. It is "it's not innovative at all" threads. Because a thread that was saying "the game is innovative, but not super-innovative" would probably not get much traction. Maybe a few pages and then it would disappear.
I don't feel the true innovation For me the experince is same as a typical themepark MMOS. I run around, do DE's, go to a scout who marks events on my map..i complete heart events, look for another scout..rinse and repeat. Do some more DE's..and so on.
Even Vistas, point of interest are marked on the map so not much left to mystery of exploring either. But that doesn't mean game isn't fun. But i mostly roll my eyes when read words like 'innovation'...'savior' etc.
I didn't realize you did DEs in other MMOs or went looking for scouts to give you overviews of the area. Or vistas for that matter.
I did De's in Rift, Scouts are like quest givers, i did lots of exploration in games like Vanguard, EQ and EQ2 and not everything was marked on the map. Not saying you don't find some puzzles on ocassion while exploring but MAP by default is cluttered with too much information for explorer type.
You did Rifts in Rifts, which are different that DEs and certainly different than DE chains. Scouts aren't like quest givers, since quest givers don't give you overviews of the area -- or rather, quest givers aren't like scouts. The quest givers really are the hearts, if you want to do that, but multiple choice quests regarding what you do to get them done is almost unheard of in MMOs.
I mean sure, there are similarities to other MMOs. You are going around doing stuff, and that will involve killing things, etc. But the process is different. Even you made that clear by describing it. Putting traditional labels that fit poorly doesn't really help you case that this is the exact same thing as before.
Now, I can understand if it doesn't feel at all different to you. That's subjective. But objectively what is being done is different and follows a different process, because the underlying mechanics of what is going on, how it goes on, when it goes on, etc is different.
now we have a ton of "It's not that innovative" threads like the OP's who are attacking the views of people who probably don't even remember their enthusiasm and just annoying the rest of us.
Really, it isn't "it's not that innovative" threads. It is "it's not innovative at all" threads. Because a thread that was saying "the game is innovative, but not super-innovative" would probably not get much traction. Maybe a few pages and then it would disappear.
True enough, but my point stands... the reason people are even posting threads like these in the first place is because certain people claimed GW2 was going to change everything. Did it? No. Did it change some things? Yes. But you aren't going to get a compromise out of them; for reasons that I can't fathom, they want this game to fail because of some over-enthused fans. But I guess that's common practice on these forums.
I don't feel the true innovation For me the experince is same as a typical themepark MMOS. I run around, do DE's, go to a scout who marks events on my map..i complete heart events, look for another scout..rinse and repeat. Do some more DE's..and so on.
Even Vistas, point of interest are marked on the map so not much left to mystery of exploring either. But that doesn't mean game isn't fun. But i mostly roll my eyes when read words like 'innovation'...'savior' etc.
I didn't realize you did DEs in other MMOs or went looking for scouts to give you overviews of the area. Or vistas for that matter.
I did De's in Rift, Scouts are like quest givers, i did lots of exploration in games like Vanguard, EQ and EQ2 and not everything was marked on the map. Not saying you don't find some puzzles on ocassion while exploring but MAP by default is cluttered with too much information for explorer type.
You did Rifts in Rifts, which are different that DEs and certainly different than DE chains. Scouts aren't like quest givers, since quest givers don't give you overviews of the area -- or rather, quest givers aren't like scouts. The quest givers really are the hearts, if you want to do that, but multiple choice quests regarding what you do to get them done is almost unheard of in MMOs.
I mean sure, there are similarities to other MMOs. You are going around doing stuff, and that will involve killing things, etc. But the process is different. Even you made that clear by describing it. Putting traditional labels that fit poorly doesn't really help you case that this is the exact same thing as before.
Now, I can understand if it doesn't feel at all different to you. That's subjective. But objectively what is being done is different and follows a different process, because the underlying mechanics of what is going on, how it goes on, when it goes on, etc is different.
Since it is a matter of opinion arguing about it is pointless. So lets agree to disagree shall we? a MMO can be fun without being 'truly innovative'. I didn't feel the difference at all while playing GW2..maybe because i have played just way too many MMOS in past? and GW2 gives me too much deja vu feeling from Daoc, to War, from Rift to TSW and many other things that remind me of previous MMOS.
Is that bad? nope. But i disagree with buzz words like 'innovation' which make more sense when a company is trying to sell the boxes. Scoutstake place of quest givers in GW2. Infact by giving over view of the area they give even more information than your typical quest giver. Is it different yes...but 'truly innovative' nope?
And honestly i don't need an MMO to re invent the wheel for me to be fun. FFXIV broke a lot of norms and we know how that end up to be. So for me as long as MMO is fun i could care less about politics and forum PVP that goes along with it.
now we have a ton of "It's not that innovative" threads like the OP's who are attacking the views of people who probably don't even remember their enthusiasm and just annoying the rest of us.
Really, it isn't "it's not that innovative" threads. It is "it's not innovative at all" threads. Because a thread that was saying "the game is innovative, but not super-innovative" would probably not get much traction. Maybe a few pages and then it would disappear.
True enough, but my point stands... the reason people are even posting threads like these in the first place is because certain people claimed GW2 was going to change everything. Did it? No. Did it change some things? Yes. But you aren't going to get a compromise out of them; for reasons that I can't fathom, they want this game to fail because of some over-enthused fans. But I guess that's common practice on these forums.
I'm not sure of their motivations. It's possible they want the game to fail because it is a Themepark and they like Sandboxes. Or maybe they don't care if it fails or not, but want to call it the exact same thing as all other themeparks because they don't like themeparks. Then again, some people just like to argue. Or whatever.
Might just be that GW2 isn't the game they want, so they can't understand how anyone else could like it. Eh, lots of possible reasons.
now we have a ton of "It's not that innovative" threads like the OP's who are attacking the views of people who probably don't even remember their enthusiasm and just annoying the rest of us.
Really, it isn't "it's not that innovative" threads. It is "it's not innovative at all" threads. Because a thread that was saying "the game is innovative, but not super-innovative" would probably not get much traction. Maybe a few pages and then it would disappear.
True enough, but my point stands... the reason people are even posting threads like these in the first place is because certain people claimed GW2 was going to change everything. Did it? No. Did it change some things? Yes. But you aren't going to get a compromise out of them; for reasons that I can't fathom, they want this game to fail because of some over-enthused fans. But I guess that's common practice on these forums.
For every person that want's to put the game on a pedestel there is going to be one that want's to knock it off
now we have a ton of "It's not that innovative" threads like the OP's who are attacking the views of people who probably don't even remember their enthusiasm and just annoying the rest of us.
Really, it isn't "it's not that innovative" threads. It is "it's not innovative at all" threads. Because a thread that was saying "the game is innovative, but not super-innovative" would probably not get much traction. Maybe a few pages and then it would disappear.
True enough, but my point stands... the reason people are even posting threads like these in the first place is because certain people claimed GW2 was going to change everything. Did it? No. Did it change some things? Yes. But you aren't going to get a compromise out of them; for reasons that I can't fathom, they want this game to fail because of some over-enthused fans. But I guess that's common practice on these forums.
Yeah, that's pretty much the bones of it. They literally are unable to admit things that are right in front of their face. There are things in this game that have not been done before. Their argument should be, "I don't like the new things," not, "the new things don't exist," while they bury their heads in the sand.
How many posts in this thread alone actually list at least 4 innovative things that you can genuinely look at and say, "yes, that actually was innovative?" How many posts have a single line that tells us that it has zero innovations? I mean... they say zero... nothing... at all. It's mindblowing to see how far underground their heads are. Most MMORPGs actually have at least a couple of innovations, it's whether or not you like them that matters.
now we have a ton of "It's not that innovative" threads like the OP's who are attacking the views of people who probably don't even remember their enthusiasm and just annoying the rest of us.
Really, it isn't "it's not that innovative" threads. It is "it's not innovative at all" threads. Because a thread that was saying "the game is innovative, but not super-innovative" would probably not get much traction. Maybe a few pages and then it would disappear.
True enough, but my point stands... the reason people are even posting threads like these in the first place is because certain people claimed GW2 was going to change everything. Did it? No. Did it change some things? Yes. But you aren't going to get a compromise out of them; for reasons that I can't fathom, they want this game to fail because of some over-enthused fans. But I guess that's common practice on these forums.
Yeah, that's pretty much the bones of it. They literally are unable to admit things that are right in front of their face. There are things in this game that have not been done before. Their argument should be, "I don't like the new things," not, "the new things don't exist," while they bury their heads in the sand.
How many posts in this thread alone actually list at least 4 innovative things that you can genuinely look at and say, "yes, that actually was innovative?" How many posts have a single line that tells us that it has zero innovations? I mean... they say zero... nothing... at all. It's mindblowing to see how far underground their heads are. Most MMORPGs actually have at least a couple of innovations, it's whether or not you like them that matters.
Tell us about it.
However, like i said before it is quite possible to enjoy the game even though you don't think it is innovative. Problem is that a lot of fans are getting defensive and equating innovation with fun.
"If you don't think it is innovative then it means you are a "hater"..duh!!"
Since it is a matter of opinion arguing about it is pointless. So lets agree to disagree shall we? a MMO can be fun without being 'truly innovative'. I didn't feel the difference at all while playing GW2..maybe because i have played just way too many MMOS in past? and GW2 gives me too much deja vu feeling from Daoc, to War, from Rift to TSW and many other things that remind me of previous MMOS.
Is that bad? nope. But i disagree with buzz words like 'innovation' which make more sense when a company is trying to sell the boxes. Scoutstake place of quest givers in GW2. Infact by giving over view of the area they give even more information than your typical quest giver. Is it different yes...but 'truly innovative' nope?
And honestly i don't need an MMO to re invent the wheel for me to be fun. FFXIV broke a lot of norms and we know how that end up to be. So for me as long as MMO is fun i could care less about politics and forum PVP that goes along with it.
I think one's personal feelings regarding the game are a matter of opinion. The fact GW2 has a number of unique mechanics and design aspects to it is a matter of fact however. Maybe those unique parts don't make you feel any different than other MMOs or maybe they just make you feel nostalgic. That doesn't change that they are there.
Yes, GW2 is kind of like this, that, the other thing, that one other game, and another one. The innovation lies in the fact it has put all those aspects together and in some cases advanced them beyond what came before.
I do not care if X is a "buzzword" Why should we concern ourselves with marketing crap when analyzing a game? Certainly we shouldn't give a darn if a marketing department would like or dislike our analysis of a game's mechanics. And we shouldn't avoid coming to a conclusion just because we don't like hype and buzzwords getting tossed around. Let us not bias ourselves against accurate assessments for these reasons.
"Truly Innovative" seems to me like the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Where to avoid saying something is "innovative" you raise the bar on what you call "innovative" and say "well, it's not truly innovative." That's semantics. It has a different methodlogy for how it goes about delivering themepark content to the players. That makes it innovative by definition. Is GW2 the most innovative thing ever? No. Is it super-awesome-great-fantastic innovative? I'd say not. Does it do new and different things? Sure. Just because we can argue that GW2 was inspired by a half-dozen or so games doesn't diminish that fact.
You don't have to reinvent the wheel to be innovative. You just have to be different. GW2 is different, though it is not the most different thing ever. So it is certainly innovative. And if we don't like that marketing folks love tossing words like that around whether they apply or not...well...they can go to hell.
now we have a ton of "It's not that innovative" threads like the OP's who are attacking the views of people who probably don't even remember their enthusiasm and just annoying the rest of us.
Really, it isn't "it's not that innovative" threads. It is "it's not innovative at all" threads. Because a thread that was saying "the game is innovative, but not super-innovative" would probably not get much traction. Maybe a few pages and then it would disappear.
True enough, but my point stands... the reason people are even posting threads like these in the first place is because certain people claimed GW2 was going to change everything. Did it? No. Did it change some things? Yes. But you aren't going to get a compromise out of them; for reasons that I can't fathom, they want this game to fail because of some over-enthused fans. But I guess that's common practice on these forums.
Yeah, that's pretty much the bones of it. They literally are unable to admit things that are right in front of their face. There are things in this game that have not been done before. Their argument should be, "I don't like the new things," not, "the new things don't exist," while they bury their heads in the sand.
How many posts in this thread alone actually list at least 4 innovative things that you can genuinely look at and say, "yes, that actually was innovative?" How many posts have a single line that tells us that it has zero innovations? I mean... they say zero... nothing... at all. It's mindblowing to see how far underground their heads are. Most MMORPGs actually have at least a couple of innovations, it's whether or not you like them that matters.
You also have the flip side .. People are not willing to see that while it does innovate in some aspects IT's not as innovative as they claim .. Both sides are guilty of the Ostrich Syndrome
For every person that want's to put the game on a pedestel there is going to be one that want's to knock it off
Well, I think actually the ratio depends on the quality and popularity of the game. WoW has more people putting it on a pedastal than knocking it off (generally speaking). STO has more people knocking it off than putting it on a pedastal. Of course, this is muddled a bit by the fact the most "vocal" people post more and so the ratio is not always immediately obvious. Eh, and forum population varies, etc, etc, etc.
However, like i said before it is quite possible to enjoy the game even though you don't think it is innovative. Problem is that a lot of fans are getting defensive and equating innovation with fun.
"If you don't think it is innovative then it means you are a "hater"..duh!!"
Not I. I'm just sick of these threads because they're probably never going to reach the eyes of the people they're meant for; even some of the ones that are still around and used to crow about how innovative the game was have calmed down a lot. And as for myself, I said on these forums long ago that innovation doesn't matter that much to me - it's nice but come on, these are MMOs, none of them are all that different from one another... yet people split themselves into camps and snipe each other with no real benefit in mind. Kudos to ANet for their game, I feel sorry for any of them who read these forums and take these stupid complaints to heart.
Since it is a matter of opinion arguing about it is pointless. So lets agree to disagree shall we? a MMO can be fun without being 'truly innovative'. I didn't feel the difference at all while playing GW2..maybe because i have played just way too many MMOS in past? and GW2 gives me too much deja vu feeling from Daoc, to War, from Rift to TSW and many other things that remind me of previous MMOS.
Is that bad? nope. But i disagree with buzz words like 'innovation' which make more sense when a company is trying to sell the boxes. Scoutstake place of quest givers in GW2. Infact by giving over view of the area they give even more information than your typical quest giver. Is it different yes...but 'truly innovative' nope?
And honestly i don't need an MMO to re invent the wheel for me to be fun. FFXIV broke a lot of norms and we know how that end up to be. So for me as long as MMO is fun i could care less about politics and forum PVP that goes along with it.
I think one's personal feelings regarding the game are a matter of opinion. The fact GW2 has a number of unique mechanics and design aspects to it is a matter of fact however. Maybe those unique parts don't make you feel any different than other MMOs or maybe they just make you feel nostalgic. That doesn't change that they are there.
Yes, GW2 is kind of like this, that, the other thing, that one other game, and another one. The innovation lies in the fact it has put all those aspects together and in some cases advanced them beyond what came before.
I do not care if X is a "buzzword" Why should we concern ourselves with marketing crap when analyzing a game? Certainly we shouldn't give a darn if a marketing department would like or dislike our analysis of a game's mechanics. And we shouldn't avoid coming to a conclusion just because we don't like hype and buzzwords getting tossed around. Let us not bias ourselves against accurate assessments for these reasons.
"Truly Innovative" seems to me like the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Where to avoid saying something is "innovative" you raise the bar on what you call "innovative" and say "well, it's not truly innovative." That's semantics. It has a different methodlogy for how it goes about delivering themepark content to the players. That makes it innovative by definition. Is GW2 the most innovative thing ever? No. Is it super-awesome-great-fantastic innovative? I'd say not. Does it do new and different things? Sure. Just because we can argue that GW2 was inspired by a half-dozen or so games doesn't diminish that fact.
You don't have to reinvent the wheel to be innovative. You just have to be different. GW2 is different, though it is not the most different thing ever. So it is certainly innovative. And if we don't like that marketing folks love tossing words like that around whether they apply or not...well...they can go to hell.
I still prefer the word different to 'innovative'. And that is good enough for me. Everything said on these forums is matter of opinion though. Even innovation..everything boils down to personal opinion. What is innovative for me couldbe the same old same for you and vice versa.
Players have different expectations and things they want from a MMO, so it would be hard for everyone to agree on the same point when it comes to what is really innovative and what is not.
No one is right or wrong here though. Everyone has the right to interpret innovation in their own way.
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Or it might be because the game is so blatantly innovative and people want to attack it. When you have to point to 5+ games to say "see, it isn't innovative, it's combining and improving all these elemetns from all these games!" the argument has been lost. But there will be people who don't like GW2 or don't like people calling it innovative, or see some similar things and decided that it can't be innovative, or for whom GW2 isn't their dream MMO and hence it can't be innovative, etc, etc. So some will insist on saying it is the same old, same old, for whatver reasons they have even when it is obviously not. Can't really say which came first.
But, I think intellectual integrity and the truth matters, so it is worth having the discussion for this reason.
Considering I didn't say it is revolutionary or expressed any shock or anger, I don't understand your post.
I'm not sure and don't care if the game is evolutionary, is revolutionary, is the second coming, is the WoW killer or whatever.
It is a great fun game, that plays differently from any other MMORPG I played and that for my own tastes it is the one that gives me the most (and give me things no other MMORPG gave me before, so I do see innovation especially in how I play the game and in how I interact with others around me).
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
There you go, next time lead with that, instead of a leading question you believe you already have the answer to.
Now--name one thing that WoW truly innovated.
You'll notice that if you start at our end (MMOs at +15 years from their birth).
Every MMO starts with state-of-the-art (for their given year), and builds modification and expansion around what came before.
Nothing, not one damn thing, in Vanilla WoW existed only in Vanilla WoW. It drew bits and pieces from at least a half-dozen prior games, and made decisions of what to keep/improve and what to discard/remove.
8 years later, you still cannot find much in WoW that didn't already exist elsewhere in the MMO universe. Blizzard just tends to take existing ideas and polish them.
The same thing, it seems, you want to level some sort of accusation at Anet for doing? Or Funcom. Or EA. Or SoE. Or anyone else. The same thing everyone in the industry is doing, and always has?
Does anyone think that UO did not 'cop' previous work? Really?
Pretty pointless observation, no? "People using this 'innovation' word are being trendy, but not really staking any argument'."
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Sorry
it was a general " You " aimed at the masses .. not a personal " You " aimed at yourself
Hard to find? They are non-existent using the OP's standards. Heck, non-existent in almost any field or subject or item or invention in human history.
UO and EQ? They didn't innovate one dang thing. Nothing in them that wasn't in MUDS and CRPGs, really. I'm sure we could name 6 or so games/genres they took elements from. Heck, we could probably do the same with the first manned mission to the Moon.
Exactly. Why spin our tires in this mud at all?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I don't feel the true innovation For me the experince is same as a typical themepark MMOS. I run around, do DE's, go to a scout who marks events on my map..i complete heart events, look for another scout..rinse and repeat. Do some more DE's..and so on.
Even Vistas, point of interest are marked on the map so not much left to mystery of exploring either. But that doesn't mean game isn't fun. But i mostly roll my eyes when read words like 'innovation'...'savior' etc.
I didn't realize you did DEs in other MMOs or went looking for scouts to give you overviews of the area. Or vistas for that matter.
The problem started with ANet's Manifesto... a select group of people became very excited about the video and started posting things like the stuff we're all rolling our eyes at, but it became gospel for some people who followed the game, and now we have a ton of "It's not that innovative" threads like the OP's who are attacking the views of people who probably don't even remember their enthusiasm and just annoying the rest of us.
I did De's in Rift, Scouts are like quest givers, i did lots of exploration in games like Vanguard, EQ and EQ2 and not everything was marked on the map. Not saying you don't find some puzzles on ocassion while exploring but MAP by default is cluttered with too much information for explorer type.
Really, it isn't "it's not that innovative" threads. It is "it's not innovative at all" threads. Because a thread that was saying "the game is innovative, but not super-innovative" would probably not get much traction. Maybe a few pages and then it would disappear.
You did Rifts in Rifts, which are different that DEs and certainly different than DE chains. Scouts aren't like quest givers, since quest givers don't give you overviews of the area -- or rather, quest givers aren't like scouts. The quest givers really are the hearts, if you want to do that, but multiple choice quests regarding what you do to get them done is almost unheard of in MMOs.
I mean sure, there are similarities to other MMOs. You are going around doing stuff, and that will involve killing things, etc. But the process is different. Even you made that clear by describing it. Putting traditional labels that fit poorly doesn't really help you case that this is the exact same thing as before.
Now, I can understand if it doesn't feel at all different to you. That's subjective. But objectively what is being done is different and follows a different process, because the underlying mechanics of what is going on, how it goes on, when it goes on, etc is different.
True enough, but my point stands... the reason people are even posting threads like these in the first place is because certain people claimed GW2 was going to change everything. Did it? No. Did it change some things? Yes. But you aren't going to get a compromise out of them; for reasons that I can't fathom, they want this game to fail because of some over-enthused fans. But I guess that's common practice on these forums.
Since it is a matter of opinion arguing about it is pointless. So lets agree to disagree shall we? a MMO can be fun without being 'truly innovative'. I didn't feel the difference at all while playing GW2..maybe because i have played just way too many MMOS in past? and GW2 gives me too much deja vu feeling from Daoc, to War, from Rift to TSW and many other things that remind me of previous MMOS.
Is that bad? nope. But i disagree with buzz words like 'innovation' which make more sense when a company is trying to sell the boxes. Scoutstake place of quest givers in GW2. Infact by giving over view of the area they give even more information than your typical quest giver. Is it different yes...but 'truly innovative' nope?
And honestly i don't need an MMO to re invent the wheel for me to be fun. FFXIV broke a lot of norms and we know how that end up to be. So for me as long as MMO is fun i could care less about politics and forum PVP that goes along with it.
I'm not sure of their motivations. It's possible they want the game to fail because it is a Themepark and they like Sandboxes. Or maybe they don't care if it fails or not, but want to call it the exact same thing as all other themeparks because they don't like themeparks. Then again, some people just like to argue. Or whatever.
Might just be that GW2 isn't the game they want, so they can't understand how anyone else could like it. Eh, lots of possible reasons.
For every person that want's to put the game on a pedestel there is going to be one that want's to knock it off
Yeah, that's pretty much the bones of it. They literally are unable to admit things that are right in front of their face. There are things in this game that have not been done before. Their argument should be, "I don't like the new things," not, "the new things don't exist," while they bury their heads in the sand.
How many posts in this thread alone actually list at least 4 innovative things that you can genuinely look at and say, "yes, that actually was innovative?" How many posts have a single line that tells us that it has zero innovations? I mean... they say zero... nothing... at all. It's mindblowing to see how far underground their heads are. Most MMORPGs actually have at least a couple of innovations, it's whether or not you like them that matters.
Tell us about it.
However, like i said before it is quite possible to enjoy the game even though you don't think it is innovative. Problem is that a lot of fans are getting defensive and equating innovation with fun.
"If you don't think it is innovative then it means you are a "hater"..duh!!"
I think one's personal feelings regarding the game are a matter of opinion. The fact GW2 has a number of unique mechanics and design aspects to it is a matter of fact however. Maybe those unique parts don't make you feel any different than other MMOs or maybe they just make you feel nostalgic. That doesn't change that they are there.
Yes, GW2 is kind of like this, that, the other thing, that one other game, and another one. The innovation lies in the fact it has put all those aspects together and in some cases advanced them beyond what came before.
I do not care if X is a "buzzword" Why should we concern ourselves with marketing crap when analyzing a game? Certainly we shouldn't give a darn if a marketing department would like or dislike our analysis of a game's mechanics. And we shouldn't avoid coming to a conclusion just because we don't like hype and buzzwords getting tossed around. Let us not bias ourselves against accurate assessments for these reasons.
"Truly Innovative" seems to me like the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Where to avoid saying something is "innovative" you raise the bar on what you call "innovative" and say "well, it's not truly innovative." That's semantics. It has a different methodlogy for how it goes about delivering themepark content to the players. That makes it innovative by definition. Is GW2 the most innovative thing ever? No. Is it super-awesome-great-fantastic innovative? I'd say not. Does it do new and different things? Sure. Just because we can argue that GW2 was inspired by a half-dozen or so games doesn't diminish that fact.
You don't have to reinvent the wheel to be innovative. You just have to be different. GW2 is different, though it is not the most different thing ever. So it is certainly innovative. And if we don't like that marketing folks love tossing words like that around whether they apply or not...well...they can go to hell.
You also have the flip side .. People are not willing to see that while it does innovate in some aspects IT's not as innovative as they claim .. Both sides are guilty of the Ostrich Syndrome
Well, I think actually the ratio depends on the quality and popularity of the game. WoW has more people putting it on a pedastal than knocking it off (generally speaking). STO has more people knocking it off than putting it on a pedastal. Of course, this is muddled a bit by the fact the most "vocal" people post more and so the ratio is not always immediately obvious. Eh, and forum population varies, etc, etc, etc.
I really analyzed that way too much, eh?
Not I. I'm just sick of these threads because they're probably never going to reach the eyes of the people they're meant for; even some of the ones that are still around and used to crow about how innovative the game was have calmed down a lot. And as for myself, I said on these forums long ago that innovation doesn't matter that much to me - it's nice but come on, these are MMOs, none of them are all that different from one another... yet people split themselves into camps and snipe each other with no real benefit in mind. Kudos to ANet for their game, I feel sorry for any of them who read these forums and take these stupid complaints to heart.
I still prefer the word different to 'innovative'. And that is good enough for me. Everything said on these forums is matter of opinion though. Even innovation..everything boils down to personal opinion. What is innovative for me couldbe the same old same for you and vice versa.
Players have different expectations and things they want from a MMO, so it would be hard for everyone to agree on the same point when it comes to what is really innovative and what is not.
No one is right or wrong here though. Everyone has the right to interpret innovation in their own way.