There's No Reason For GW2 To Even Have Levels

sirchive

More than any other MMO the levels in GW2 feel like a completely artificial time-sink.

You can pick any class in this game and it's great fun for about ten levels. After that the repitition and the lack of exciting advancement goals as well as the general lack of challenge starts to drag. Exploration is a sad joke because you only have to enter a general area and every single meaningful location including harvesting nodes pop up on the map.

Why even have levels except to force players to spend more time in game. You can PvP from level 1. There is no real sense of progression as you level. No big mile-stones to shoot for. Running around a zone trying to complete all the little heart quests in order to complete a zone is possibly the most boring thing I've even done in an MMO. Once in awhile you take part in an interesting event. But the majority of them start to fall into boring scripted patterns.

This feels like a game with no levels where they just added levels and a level grind anyway.

mmoluva

While leveling adjust your focus on the population.

Torgrim

Originally posted by sirchive

Exploration is a sad joke because you only have to enter a general area and every single meaningful location including harvesting nodes pop up on the map.

 

I'm unaware they put in markers for puzzles quests on the map.

timtrack

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by sirchive

Exploration is a sad joke because you only have to enter a general area and every single meaningful location including harvesting nodes pop up on the map.

 

I'm unaware they put in markers for puzzles quests on the map.

What he's saying is that he only followed the "helper marks that was put there to give lost players a sense of direction", therefor that is all there is in the game. Nothing else exists.

Jakdstripper

i'm sorry OP but you could say the same thing about every single mmo out there.

why do you even need levels? you dont. they could just give you a fully maxed out character and give you access to all the possible content/dungeons/battle grounds and just be done with it.

sadly without some sort of progression people dont stay and play the same game for long. you would explore/try everything out in a few days and then get bored since there would be no point in doing anything since you already have everything.

 the whole point of mmos is progression. take away the progression and it's just a tab targeting moba. might as well play Bloodline Champions then..... who the heck would pay a subscription anymore?

Grahor

The only reason for levels is so that you would experience the content in portions, from one side to the other. There is no and never were any other reason for levels in any game whatsoever, starting from paper DnD.

sirchive

Wait, you really mean to tell me that you feel that the existence of a single jumping-quest per zone somehow makes for exploration? This one thing counter-balances the fact that you are led by the nose to every resource node, point of interest, quest hub (and yes, they are still quest hubs) and skill challenge?

You don't have to even find the jumping-puzzles to complete the zone and a great many players don't enjoy doing them.

PaRoXiTiC

Hey OP go try to run a zone 10 levels above you. Let me know how it goes.

Thillian

Actuall this is true on every respect.

If the entire game SCALES UP or DOWN to your level, or your power SCALES UP or DOWN to the environment, you don't need an RPG system in the first place. No need for advancement or character progression.

It kills the sense of improving your character versus the environment.

VirusDancer

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

i'm sorry OP but you could say the same thing about every single mmo out there.

why do you even need levels? you dont. they could just give you a fully maxed out character and give you access to all the possible content/dungeons/battle grounds and just be done with it.

sadly without some sort of progression people dont stay and play the same game for long. you would explore/try everything out in a few days and then get bored since there would be no point in doing anything since you already have everything.

 the whole point of mmos is progression. take away the progression and it's just a tab targeting moba. might as well play Bloodline Champions then..... who the heck would pay a subscription anymore?

Eh...er...um...well...no.  That's not true.

Actually, it's this nonsense which has ruined a lot of games.

Get off my lawn.

sirchive

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

i'm sorry OP but you could say the same thing about every single mmo out there.

...the whole point of mmos is progression...

Yes, but in other MMOs there are meaningful rewards for progression along the way. I remember working really hard in other MMOs to level because I really wanted that new spell or new weapon or access to a new PvP area or dungeon. 

In GW2 there are very few. The gear just all feels blah. No new gear ever gives me the sense of a real power boost. The few utility spells you get and the traits are very ho-hum. You already have access to all the PvP.

The progression in GW2 is very weak and un-compelling. But the levels are there because they are the norm.

Master10K

Originally posted by Thillian

Actuall this is true on every respect.

If the entire game SCALES UP or DOWN to your level, or your power SCALES UP or DOWN to the environment, you don't need an RPG system in the first place. No need for advancement or character progression.

It kills the sense of improving your character versus the environment.

You seem to be misinformed because the game DOES NOT automatically scale you up, whilst PvE, which is what the OP is refering to. So leveling still does matter in this game, because leveling provides you with more options for skills, gear, traits & content.

Thillian

Originally posted by Master10K

Originally posted by Thillian

Actuall this is true on every respect.

If the entire game SCALES UP or DOWN to your level, or your power SCALES UP or DOWN to the environment, you don't need an RPG system in the first place. No need for advancement or character progression.

It kills the sense of improving your character versus the environment.

You seem to be misinformed because the game DOES NOT automatically scale you up, whilst PvE, which is what the OP is refering to. So leveling still does matter in this game, because leveling provides you with more options for skills, gear, traits & content.

I didn't say that, my post does not apply on GW2 on 100%, it's mostly an observation of full scale level systems in psuedo RPGs. GW2 scaling is very very close it however.

gessekai332

Originally posted by Master10K

Originally posted by Thillian

Actuall this is true on every respect.

If the entire game SCALES UP or DOWN to your level, or your power SCALES UP or DOWN to the environment, you don't need an RPG system in the first place. No need for advancement or character progression.

It kills the sense of improving your character versus the environment.

You seem to be misinformed because the game DOES NOT automatically scale you up, whilst PvE, which is what the OP is refering to. So leveling still does matter in this game, because leveling provides you with more options for skills, gear, traits & content.

i also want to add that if you have good gear for your level the game will scale you down with that in mind. you will be scaled down to a lvl 10 but you will be better off than a person who only has poor armor/weapons. also yeah there is no scaling up :P get your facts straight before you troll, thillian.

WargRider2

 I increase in level so I can finally the see the later maps in the game, I increase in level so I can equip gear that looks fantastic and gives me a sense of pride in my character. I also increase in level to play in epic dungeons with my friends having a blast talking about real life and pawning on skype, I level so that I will be the awe of other lower levels in PvP, specifically WvW and command respect to guide my teammates on where to run. I also level so that I gain access to higher level skills, specifically elite skills like "thieves guild" which allow me to be competitive in WvW. There are PLENTY of reasons to level, and if you do not like levelling so much, then why complain about it since you apparently have access to everything you need anyways? I mean if a feature didn't exist that was required, then you might as well suggest it, but if a feature is there that you and a few others feel is unecessary, then simply avoid or ignore it, while the rest of us enjoy it for what it is. It's not like you have to be a higher level or even attempt "levelling" in order to enjoy WvW and sPvP. I am not arguing or anything, this is just my opinion and I am stating why _I_ specifically level in this game. If you are bored with the game in that regard, then quit and move on . Regardless, I am just saying that for some of, levelling feels vital to the experience, or well, at least for me it does. Just an opinionated response to an opinionated post. 

WargRider2

Ok sorry for double post, but that is just outright wrong. You specifically stated "If the entire game SCALES UP or DOWN to your level, or your power SCALES UP or DOWN to the environment", first of all the "entire game" does NOTHING like that whatsoever. It scales you down in PvE and scales you up in sPvP and WvW. Your "power" at least from my experience relies on your skill, and for half the game, you are not scaled up at all (PvE). You are right in some regards, but the statement: "GW2 scaling is very very close it however." is just wrong, it is at best half correct.

Gaia_Hunter

Levelling adds more options and power.

Additionally you have a player progression, as enemies use better tactics and are more dangerous in higher zones.

Levels are a system that mostly exist in viseo games to hide non changing game play.

BeansnBread

There's no reason for Magnum P.I. to have a mustache, but the show just wouldn't be as good without it.

Boldyn

Originally posted by Thillian

Originally posted by Master10K

Originally posted by Thillian

GW2 scaling is very very close it however.

No it isn't, since it doesn't scale you up to your enviroment. Reality check maybe?

Mors-Subita

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by sirchive

Exploration is a sad joke because you only have to enter a general area and every single meaningful location including harvesting nodes pop up on the map.

 

I'm unaware they put in markers for puzzles quests on the map.

Yeah... and those markers for all the secret things that trigger events, and the npc interactions that you find at the end of the dead-end path that you never would have noticed, or those crazy caves with the bosses and stuff and the chests at the end... Why did they bother marking those? It just totally ruins exploration...

/sarcasm

Boldyn

Originally posted by sirchive

More than any other MMO the levels in GW2 feel like a completely artificial time-sink.

You can pick any class in this game and it's great fun for about ten levels. After that the repitition and the lack of exciting advancement goals as well as the general lack of challenge starts to drag. Exploration is a sad joke because you only have to enter a general area and every single meaningful location including harvesting nodes pop up on the map.

Why even have levels except to force players to spend more time in game. You can PvP from level 1. There is no real sense of progression as you level. No big mile-stones to shoot for. Running around a zone trying to complete all the little heart quests in order to complete a zone is possibly the most boring thing I've even done in an MMO. Once in awhile you take part in an interesting event. But the majority of them start to fall into boring scripted patterns.

This feels like a game with no levels where they just added levels and a level grind anyway.

1 jumping puzzle per zone? Mkay.

 

But go ahead and forget the small dungeons that have no marking at all and contain chests or champion mobs.

Also make sure to forget the actual dungeons (starting at 30 so with your goldfish attention span you wont have tried), that are infact not your average breeze-through.

 

I'd love to have you on my side in PvP at level 1 with your a) lacking skills/traits, b) lack of experience and c) stats. because what you wear, or rather how you choose to spend avalible upgrade slots, does infact change your stats.

 

Apart from those things you are spot om though.

teotius

No reason but personally i get that "DING" feeling and its good

kaiser3282

Originally posted by sirchive

More than any other MMO the levels in GW2 feel like a completely artificial time-sink.

You can pick any class in this game and it's great fun for about ten levels. After that the repitition and the lack of exciting advancement goals as well as the general lack of challenge starts to drag. Exploration is a sad joke because you only have to enter a general area and every single meaningful location including harvesting nodes pop up on the map.

Why even have levels except to force players to spend more time in game. You can PvP from level 1. There is no real sense of progression as you level. No big mile-stones to shoot for. Running around a zone trying to complete all the little heart quests in order to complete a zone is possibly the most boring thing I've even done in an MMO. Once in awhile you take part in an interesting event. But the majority of them start to fall into boring scripted patterns.

This feels like a game with no levels where they just added levels and a level grind anyway.

Why have levels in any game? You trolls are really grasping at straws here to hate on the game for anything can. I just think its funny you think theres no purpose / milestones. Have you even actually playe dthe game? Or at best, played it beyond level 10? You dont even unlock trait points until 11... theres a milestone. Every 5 trait points (aka 5 levels) unlocks a new skill in the trait line... milestone. Every 10 points/levels unlocks another skill of your choosing... milestone. Every 10 points also unlocks the ability to go to the next tier in that line.... milestone.

Theres also the utility skill unlocks, the elite skill unlocks, gear availability at various levels, ability use different consumables and upgrades at different levels, etc.

Troll harder please.

VirgoThree

Here is an early blog post about some of their design decisions for the 80 cap 

http://www.arena.net/blog/progression-and-leveling-in-guild-wars-2#more-2828

I'm pretty sure most of the followers of this game have seen this already. For me personally leveling up is half the fun of an RPG. I know games like Dark Souls or Demon's Souls would be boring as hell if they took out the leveling for me. Same goes for games like Skyrim, Final Fantasy, Dungeons and Dragons, or any other RPG! Progression is fun

Badaboom

All of the markers are for the benefit of the casual gamer.   Op, sounds like you sshould give Darkfall a try. 

Skyy_High

Originally posted by sirchive

 Exploration is a sad joke because you only have to enter a general area and every single meaningful location including harvesting nodes pop up on the map.

Nope. Those markers are there to let completionists who just want a little button that says "100%" have their fill. If you're just running around a zone picking up those PoI and such, you're easily missing half of the content in a given zone. Champion boss spawns (and their related chests), "normal" hidden chests, real jumping puzzles (not just vistas), "farms" that supply 10 nodes of a given rare cooking ingredient, these are all things that reward exploration, and they do not show up on the map. 

As for the actual purpose of the topic: levels are there for a few reasons:

They let you set your difficulty. In a persistent world, this is pretty much the only way to do this effectively. If you're having trouble, fight lower level mobs. If you want a challenge, fight higher level mobs, or more of them at once. You'll be rewarded with better loot and better XP. 

They let you gauge the difficulty of a fight immediately, and easily. It's really hard to tell if one spider is stronger than another spider. I'm not just talking about stats, either; higher leveled foes dodge, block, stun, daze, immobilize, stack DoTs, poison, etc, etc, far more often than lower leveled foes. They require different strategies to beat; you can walk up to an on-leveled foe at level 5 and beat them just by swinging your sword, but you can't do that at level 80. 

They guide content and provide a sense of progression. This is important to some people, and until and unless you tell me that you're running out of on-level stuff to do (at which point, I'd laugh at you), there's really no problem with it. 

Down-scaling removes the major problem with levels, which is that you only ever have a small area in which you can effectively play and progress.