Is Grouping and being social the same thing?

Johnie-Marz

I started this discussion in order to open it up to being about more than one specific game.

 

My personal expirience with this issue came from when I played World of Warcraft. After the dungeon finder came out, I grouped with more random people than I had in the previously years I had played. I completed every dungeons from Ragefire Chasm on up.

But in many groups, after the initial, "Hello" there wasn't really a ton of talking. (and when it was, it was arguing)

Now recently, there is talk about the DE's in GW2 on these forums, that people work together in DE's but there isn't a ton of chat going on. 

The Dungeon finder and Dynamic Events are becoming the standard in MMO's, so this is an issue that is just starting and persists through more than one specific game.

 

So the question; is grouping in and of itself being social? or for a game to truely be social, do people need to be talking as well?

Aerowyn

this is a good discussion.. but poll has way to many options.. for me more options that can bring people together in a MMO the better. I don't feel forcing people to NEED to talk = making the game social. I view social as playing with others in reach of a common goal. Not everyone likes to talk all the time but still enjoy playing alonside other people.. when you can balance that and having options that require people to socialize to complete content I think that's a winning combination.

Johnie-Marz

Originally posted by Aerowyn
this is a good discussion.. but poll has way to many options.. for me more options that can bring people together in a MMO the better. I don't feel forcing people to NEED to talk = making the game social. I view social as playing with others in reach of a common goal. Not everyone likes to talk all the time but still enjoy playing alonside other people.. when you can balance that and having options that require people to socialize to complete content I think that's a winning combination.

Myself I have mixed feelings. However, I do see your point. Let a game create mechanics that bring players together, but it is up to the players whether to talk or not.

Aerowyn

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

Originally posted by Aerowyn
this is a good discussion.. but poll has way to many options.. for me more options that can bring people together in a MMO the better. I don't feel forcing people to NEED to talk = making the game social. I view social as playing with others in reach of a common goal. Not everyone likes to talk all the time but still enjoy playing alonside other people.. when you can balance that and having options that require people to socialize to complete content I think that's a winning combination.

Myself I have mixed feelings. However, I do see your point. Let a game create mechanics that bring players together, but it is up to the players whether to talk or not.

exactly have content that allows for both needing to talk and not.. not everyone wants to pound away typing all the time while fighting... most of the time doing that is more frustrating than fun.. you have voice chat but not everyone has a mic or can actually utilize voice chat for other reason IE family around and such. Give players as many options to want to play together as possible and for me that's what makes a fun "social" mmo.

KhinRunite

Dungeon Finders and Auto Grouping indeed eliminates a lot of chatter that would have otherwise taken place in order to form a group. I think it's also important to consider whether these chatter are meaningful ones or not. In your personal opinion, do you find the constant LFG and LFM yelling or in general chat meaningful and contributes to "socializing"? Or can they be eliminated because the meat of socializing is when you're in a group and are coordinating a strategy? How often do two people form bonds in the LFG phase as opposed to when already in a auttomatically formed group?

Loktofeit

Grouping is a way to put people together to reach a game goal that they cannot complete alone. Whether they socialize or not is independent of that. Content that requires collaboration does, however, breed socialization and interaction. Such content can be entirely group independent.

Asuran24

Well honetly no grouping is not the same as being social, since you can be social (even if trollish and demeaning you are talking and making relationships good or bad.) without being in a group, and yet you can join a group using the chat only as method of completeing your objective without taking any interest in getting to know those in the group. Being social i really abotu getting inveted in others, creating a repatoire with other people in the group via talking. To me lfg, DE's kinda take the need, or even desire of being social (even having to be social or getting to know people.), and merely make it easier to get into an out of content with a little issues as possible.  

 

THough taking away a need to be social for getting into or compelting content doe make the game/people less pulled into being social as the benefit for them is lesssened. By not needing to be social to get a group you make people prefer to or can be mute in the world without worrying about getting into groups for content, By makingg it easier to get into content you make people able to treat others badly, since they can just leave or be kicked from the grroup an then que once more to repeat that cycle. It also makes it that you do not need to be invested in the game or people you play with, as you will complete t ooner or later, and the time it take to get a group i at a point you can do it several times without much effort, while in the past socializing was a way of finding people that would allow you to progre thru the game at a smother better pace.

maplestone

To me, being social involves taking part in forum discussions and showing up for open-to-public player-run events.  Being social is a completely seperate dish from adventuring.  You cannot carrot or stick me into groups or guilds.

( I make no claims as to whether or not I represent a demographic or am an eccentric exception )

Asuran24

Originally posted by maplestone

To me, being social involves taking part in forum discussions and showing up for open-to-public player-run events.  Being social is a completely seperate dish from adventuring.  You cannot carrot or stick me into groups or guilds.

( I make no claims as to whether or not I represent a demographic or am an eccentric exception )

You have a unicorn pic (as good as it looks) you are eccentric/ An exception maybe as well.

Kenze

talking is overrated. I do all my in game communicating by telepathy..if the person doesnt respond they are either antisocial or lacking the X gene.

 

One day we'll live like this..and it will be GLORIOUS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrogates_%28film%29

Asuran24

Originally posted by Kenze
talking is overrated. I do all my in game communicating by telepathy..if the person doesnt respond they are either antisocial or lacking the X gene.

You still use that dated form of communication called telepathy? I mean we all have moved to almot a borg-like hive mind style of communication. Sheshs we are all one being, that the singular being are jut vesels that we ue to gather infomation we need to keep building the structure you call reality.

aRtFuLThinG

Originally posted by Asuran24

Well honetly no grouping is not the same as being social, since you can be social (even if trollish and demeaning you are talking and making relationships good or bad.)

Actually anti-social behaviour (such as trolling) is not a form of being social, because you are not trying to form a "society" (ie. social collaboration) with that said individual, hence the term "anti-social behaviour".

I agree with the rest of your point though, grouping is not the same as being social. It is like 10 people catching the same bus (in other to be vehicularly efficient in terms of cost) is not considered socializing.

tank017

Community and social/communication used to run deeper than just grouping

Once upon a time,long, long ago..

People used to peddle their own wares,at point of interests in the world created by the player.People would also think up games inside the game for fun or to make money.

People would broadcast for groups when wanting to do dungeons.Difference is,these dungeons were intricate mazes,where one wrong step will get u killed.There was a lot of communication becuase there was a lot more you had to know.Not just "dont stand in said bosses poison clouds" or "dont attack when he turns purple" (EQ)

 

Or in pvp,Natural born leaders would rise up and take their faction by the horns,directing them into a well oiled,strategic,machine.Others, with the right skills would volunteer as scouts,being the eyes and ears for their 'General' to help him/her make the best decision on the battlefield.

When all is quiet,guilds would claim keeps,alerts would go out to these guilds when their keeps were being attacked.They would then pass this information on to their alliance(other guilds) and soon a force would congregate to combat the enemy.(DAOC)

 

All of this was done via human communication..

 

Now,everything today is solo centric.Want to sell that breastplate? open up that trading post and create your auction without making a peep.

Want to find a group? flag yourself and wait..make sure to say "hello" at the beginning of the ride and "thanks for the group! goobye everyone" at then end  ....thank you and enjoy the show!

 

Want to pvp? again.flag yourself and wait,then more often then not run off and do your own thing or sit at that flag to defend it.All while looking at the map wondering why 10 people are at that one thats obviously lost, making you curse them under your own breath.

Johnie-Marz

Originally posted by KhinRunite
Dungeon Finders and Auto Grouping indeed eliminates a lot of chatter that would have otherwise taken place in order to form a group. I think it's also important to consider whether these chatter are meaningful ones or not. In your personal opinion, do you find the constant LFG and LFM yelling or in general chat meaningful and contributes to "socializing"? Or can they be eliminated because the meat of socializing is when you're in a group and are coordinating a strategy? How often do two people form bonds in the LFG phase as opposed to when already in a auttomatically formed group?

Before the dungeon finder, that's how many people found friends. They find a group of people to do a dungeon. It would go well, then you would put the members of the group on your friends list. (Or ask if you could join their guild if you got along)

Next time you needed to do a dungeon you would whisper them, see if they wanted to do another dungeon. With the dugeon finder, once the dungeon is over, you never see them again.

However that is not to say the dungeon finder is bad, just creates a different set of  problems.

stratasaurus

I like dungeon finders cause lets face it, spending  a hour spamming lfg is just not fun.  I think something can be social even without talking, for example doesn't matter the MMO but in a Dungeon finder you have to work as a team, even if you aren't talking your working as a group.  If the tank doesn't do his job, everyone dies, same for healer and dps.  DE's don't have that, it is not that I do not like the concept I just think for the grouping portion of it Rift does it way better.  Put me in a group so I can see who is taking damage and who needs help and who is fallen for a rez instead of having to randomly click on the screen.  Give me a chat channel where I can talk to only people working on the same DE as me.  Really those 2 things are the only things I want, however for GW2 to be a viable game for me they are not just something I want but something I demand.

VirusDancer

On the drive to work, do you notice all the other people you're grouped with in traffic...?

Not very social is it?

KhinRunite

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

Originally posted by KhinRunite
Dungeon Finders and Auto Grouping indeed eliminates a lot of chatter that would have otherwise taken place in order to form a group. I think it's also important to consider whether these chatter are meaningful ones or not. In your personal opinion, do you find the constant LFG and LFM yelling or in general chat meaningful and contributes to "socializing"? Or can they be eliminated because the meat of socializing is when you're in a group and are coordinating a strategy? How often do two people form bonds in the LFG phase as opposed to when already in a auttomatically formed group?

Before the dungeon finder, that's how many people found friends. They find a group of people to do a dungeon. It would go well, then you would put the members of the group on your friends list. (Or ask if you could join their guild if you got along)

Next time you needed to do a dungeon you would whisper them, see if they wanted to do another dungeon. With the dugeon finder, once the dungeon is over, you never see them again.

However that is not to say the dungeon finder is bad, just creates a different set of  problems.

Agreed. Furthermore, I don't understand exactly what about dungeon finders make people supposedly more anti-social. Can't we also add the same people after a successful dungeon run? Why did it matter how we came to be a group? Is it because it becomes much easier to group up, there's little reason to keep you as my friend and contact you when I need people to run dungeons with?

Asuran24

Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

Originally posted by Asuran24

Well honetly no grouping is not the same as being social, since you can be social (even if trollish and demeaning you are talking and making relationships good or bad.)

Actually anti-social behaviour (such as trolling) is not a form of being social, because you are not trying to form a "society" (ie. social collaboration) with that said individual, hence the term "anti-social behaviour".

I agree with the rest of your point though, grouping is not the same as being social. It is like 10 people catching the same bus (in other to be vehicularly efficient in terms of cost) is not considered socializing.

Actually being social i just the interaction good or bad of two organims valentary or not, and pro-social is most activities that are good for society, while anti-social is well actions bad for society, but regardless both sets of actions you are interacting with others for better or worse which i being social at the very basic level of what being social is about.. The ue of pro or anti is more tto do with how it affects society, and not with actually interacting with people or thosse around you.

Isawa

Originally posted by VirusDancer

On the drive to work, do you notice all the other people you're grouped with in traffic...?

Not very social is it?

On a bicycle yes, in a car no

Phry

Originally posted by VirusDancer

On the drive to work, do you notice all the other people you're grouped with in traffic...?

Not very social is it?

this is a very good analogy tbh, just because your in the same place and doing the same things, doesnt mean you communicate in any way, and no its not very social at all.

This is something i've noticed about MMO's generally though, they are no longer promoting social interraction, how many games could you replace the players with bots and not notice the difference. Its not even about enforcing grouping in a game, its about games being more social generally, i don't know of any game released in the last couple of years that actually promoted interdependance. Kind of sad really.

Asuran24

Originally posted by KhinRunite

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

Originally posted by KhinRunite
Dungeon Finders and Auto Grouping indeed eliminates a lot of chatter that would have otherwise taken place in order to form a group. I think it's also important to consider whether these chatter are meaningful ones or not. In your personal opinion, do you find the constant LFG and LFM yelling or in general chat meaningful and contributes to "socializing"? Or can they be eliminated because the meat of socializing is when you're in a group and are coordinating a strategy? How often do two people form bonds in the LFG phase as opposed to when already in a auttomatically formed group?

Before the dungeon finder, that's how many people found friends. They find a group of people to do a dungeon. It would go well, then you would put the members of the group on your friends list. (Or ask if you could join their guild if you got along)

Next time you needed to do a dungeon you would whisper them, see if they wanted to do another dungeon. With the dugeon finder, once the dungeon is over, you never see them again.

However that is not to say the dungeon finder is bad, just creates a different set of  problems.

Agreed. Furthermore, I don't understand exactly what about dungeon finders make people supposedly more anti-social. Can't we also add the same people after a successful dungeon run? Why did it matter how we came to be a group? Is it because it becomes much easier to group up, there's little reason to keep you as my friend and contact you when I need people to run dungeons with?

Well it comes to the fact that many people when you minize the risk/penalty of being an iue for others in a group, as they can jut find another group without much issue compared to prior to lfg. Also since most people have le of a iue with being that way to other alot of people just keep their head down, and finih it fast without rocking or talking with others. Many times it also for many players it will make those other people seem less important, and merely as a tool to help them progress further in the game. When you well manually vcreated a group you had a period of time to learn, and make sure the people were like you, where a in lfg you are put with random people that you have no knowledge of at all period. Also it dose seem to make people more critical of others in the group, since one mitake or what not and it is merely a short que after kicking the failure noob an get another player to continue. It it makes it less of you wanting to help others an more jut to replace them for a new peron as that is less of a inconvince/hassel.

It is like having a car that a part keep breaking on every few miles. If you had the option to trade the part out when it broke for free, or try an fix it yet fixint it would/could take three time longer then jut replacing it with no cost to you. Many people will jut replace it over trying to fix it, and this is true of the effect lfg has on people since they start to see people as replaceable parts over peole worth helping.

Loke666

Dungeonfinder is good but not cross server dungeon finders. The reason for that is that when you play with other people from your server you will run into them again, making lots of opportunity to learn to know new people.

In a cross server DF you probably never will see them again which really takes away the social point of it.

UsualSuspect

Grouping brings people together, but it's the environment that decides if they're social from that point. Most content that requires grouping are just too quickly completed for people to bother needing to socialize, because the people in the group will be gone in 10-15 minutes anyway. It's sort of like going on a rollercoaster - you might make a few comments to the people sitting near you, but when the rides over you all leave and go your separate ways. To make things more social you need to prolong the experience, games such as EverQuest had a single group together for hours inside dungeons, which is more like going on a camping trip with a bunch of strangers - the longer you're together, the more time you have to get to know each other and have more interesting conversations.

Asuran24

I would ay the diffulty, length, and depth fo the content up to cap is antoher thing that makes the game les social orineted. the longer you spend with people the more chance you have of actually socializing with them, the diffult the more you need to diguss, and the less it is a means to an end.

Johnie-Marz

Originally posted by Loke666

Dungeonfinder is good but not cross server dungeon finders. The reason for that is that when you play with other people from your server you will run into them again, making lots of opportunity to learn to know new people.

In a cross server DF you probably never will see them again which really takes away the social point of it.

Good point

 

Quirhid

Socializing and grouping are two different things. I can be in a random group while socializing through Mumble with another group. You can make grouping awkward and force people to communicate, but that is not a desirable way to make them talk.

I love team sports but I don't socialize in the pitch. I play the game.