If you only stay in a MMO for one or two months can you truly say you enjoyed it? I don't know how long you guys are staying in your MMO's, but if you are getting through several a year you can't be staying that long. I would say at the 4 to 6 month point you could say that you have given the MMO a real chance to be the MMO for you.
But of course most of the player base is treating MMO's like any other solo game. The idea of playing for more than two months is an anathema to them.
Originally posted by maji Nope, grouping and being social is not the same. And dungeon finders are annoyng. If I want quick action, I play TF2.
Why limit yourself to ONE game for quick action?
When i want quick action, i play WOW, DCUO, D3, TF2, Borderland (2 soon) ... and many others depending on my mood.
And i love dungeon finders. Won't play a MMO without one.
You play almost every game, meaning you actually don't enjoy any game.
And you've made it pretty clear that being social in MMO's is not why you are there.
You need a logic 101 class. How do you reach that conclusion? I play many games precisely because i ENJOY them. Why would i play a game if i don't enjoy it? That is just silly. No one says i am allowed to enjoy only ONE game. And no one says i need to play one game forever if i enjoy it.
Yes, i am pretty clear. I play MMORPG for the GAME, not so that i can be in a chat room.
If you only stay in a MMO for one or two months can you truly say you enjoyed it? I don't know how long you guys are staying in your MMO's, but if you are getting through several a year you can't be staying that long. I would say at the 4 to 6 month point you could say that you have given the MMO a real chance to be the MMO for you.
But of course most of the player base is treating MMO's like any other solo game. The idea of playing for more than two months is an anathema to them.
Of course i can. If i am not truly enjoying the game after the first hour, why would i even play the second hour?
And why do i need to stay for 4-6 months? There is nothing wrong to level up the character a bit, enjoy a few dungeons, then move on.
Or god fobid, come back to play the game a bit more after a while.
If you only stay in a MMO for one or two months can you truly say you enjoyed it? I don't know how long you guys are staying in your MMO's, but if you are getting through several a year you can't be staying that long. I would say at the 4 to 6 month point you could say that you have given the MMO a real chance to be the MMO for you.
But of course most of the player base is treating MMO's like any other solo game. The idea of playing for more than two months is an anathema to them.
Of course i can. If i am not truly enjoying the game after the first hour, why would i even play the second hour?
And why do i need to stay for 4-6 months? There is nothing wrong to level up the character a bit, enjoy a few dungeons, then move on.
You can group and be positively unsocial and you can group and be social. Some games have communities that have little time for others, unless they are within their own guild. A lot of this anti- social behaviour stems from the ugly side of the competitive side, driven by 'dps charts' etc. GW2 has removed both of these aspects quite deliberately for these reasons, so I think there are far less drivers for unsocial behaviour. It won't stop plain obnoxious players, but that's a constant that figures in all games.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
If you only stay in a MMO for one or two months can you truly say you enjoyed it? I don't know how long you guys are staying in your MMO's, but if you are getting through several a year you can't be staying that long. I would say at the 4 to 6 month point you could say that you have given the MMO a real chance to be the MMO for you.
But of course most of the player base is treating MMO's like any other solo game. The idea of playing for more than two months is an anathema to them.
Of course i can. If i am not truly enjoying the game after the first hour, why would i even play the second hour?
And why do i need to stay for 4-6 months? There is nothing wrong to level up the character a bit, enjoy a few dungeons, then move on.
Thanks for proving his point very aptly.
I don't see how that proved his point. Are you, like Scot, looking to build a relationship with a game? If so, that's fine, but to suggest that someone didn't enjoy a game because they didn't "give the MMO a real chance to be the MMO for them" is a rather... limited view, no?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by maji Nope, grouping and being social is not the same. And dungeon finders are annoyng. If I want quick action, I play TF2.
Why limit yourself to ONE game for quick action?
When i want quick action, i play WOW, DCUO, D3, TF2, Borderland (2 soon) ... and many others depending on my mood.
And i love dungeon finders. Won't play a MMO without one.
You play almost every game, meaning you actually don't enjoy any game.
And you've made it pretty clear that being social in MMO's is not why you are there.
You need a logic 101 class. How do you reach that conclusion? I play many games precisely because i ENJOY them. Why would i play a game if i don't enjoy it? That is just silly. No one says i am allowed to enjoy only ONE game. And no one says i need to play one game forever if i enjoy it.
Yes, i am pretty clear. I play MMORPG for the GAME, not so that i can be in a chat room.
Generally speaking, when one enjoys a certain activity they tend to put extra focus on it, to the exclusion of other activities. (hence many people limit their game playing to one or even several games)
So while a person might enjoy playing golf, tennis and heck even basketball, they'll focus on one more than the others.
Just like most people don't play a dozen sports, or have a dozen hobbies such as stamp collecting, I have to wonder how much you are enjoying specific games when you jump so frequently from one to the next.
I guess if you view playing games as a sort of a universal thing, then I see where you are coming from, but overall most people have preferences and tend to devote more time to the activities they favor over others.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by maji Nope, grouping and being social is not the same. And dungeon finders are annoyng. If I want quick action, I play TF2.
Why limit yourself to ONE game for quick action?
When i want quick action, i play WOW, DCUO, D3, TF2, Borderland (2 soon) ... and many others depending on my mood.
And i love dungeon finders. Won't play a MMO without one.
You play almost every game, meaning you actually don't enjoy any game.
And you've made it pretty clear that being social in MMO's is not why you are there.
You need a logic 101 class. How do you reach that conclusion? I play many games precisely because i ENJOY them. Why would i play a game if i don't enjoy it? That is just silly. No one says i am allowed to enjoy only ONE game. And no one says i need to play one game forever if i enjoy it.
Yes, i am pretty clear. I play MMORPG for the GAME, not so that i can be in a chat room.
Generally speaking, when one enjoys a certain activity they tend to put extra focus on it, to the exclusion of other activities. (hence many people limit their game playing to one or even several games)
So while a person might enjoy playing golf, tennis and heck even basketball, they'll focus on one more than the others.
Just like most people don't play a dozen sports, or have a dozen hobbies such as stamp collecting, I have to wonder how much you are enjoying specific games when you jump so frequently from one to the next.
I guess if you view playing games as a sort of a universal thing, then I see where you are coming from, but overall most people have preferences and tend to devote more time to the activities they favor over others.
"A few weeks" is frequent?
I love the movie the Avenger .. but do you see me watching it months after months? I saw it may be like 3 times .. that is a total of less than 9 hours.
WAY less than a SP games .. like Dead Space .. which i probably spend 2-3 weeks on. And i love that game.
It is silling to equate time spent with "how much i like a particular piece of entertainment". The movie Avenger is as high on the list as Dead Space, and is as high on the list as Diablo 3 ....
And i spent very differnet amount of time on each. More time != "liking better".
Originally posted by Derros Lack of socialization is more due to lack of downtime that games like EQ used to have, as well as the elimination of spawn camping.
When you are sitting in 1 place for hours, waiting on mana, or spawns, of course you are going to talk to others, to help relieve the boredom.
Did you just really advocate boring your players to get them to talk to one another out of sheer lack of anything else to do?
Think about it, though. It seemed to me that it was during this downtime that most socialization took place. Maybe it the was the only good aspect of downtime, but it helped people be more talky
It is sometimes similar in real life, too. One may "socialize" more waiting for a bus with others (downtime), standing in line (downtime), or even just eating lunch (downtime). Smokers out on smoke break often times strike up conversations to pass the time. Not much socialization goes on when running a marathon or trying to meet a deadline.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I voted " They're bad; because it takes away the necessity to talk" but would have preferred a choice like: "They are both good and bad: they get you to group, but can be detrimental to social interaction."
PQs and DEs, while they get you to do an activity together, in their current form discourage social communication because A) you do not automatically form a group or raid and therefore have that channel created and are mostly zerg-fests so no strategy is really needed to coordinate who does what and therefore eliminates the need to communicate.
Grouping and Social (Interaction) are not the same. While the first is about sharing activities, the second is about communicating.
The breakdown of the latter has happened with the post-WoW generation for a number of reasons (I think):
1) Originally, MMORPGs catered to roleplaying audiences.
2) Lack of social media/technology during MMORPG birth (such as Facebook and other social sites used for socializing)
3) Players have become less enamored by the genre and are more focused on the end-goal than the journey
When UO came around, there was no in-game chat. All you had was chat bubbles and were limited to what players were on screen. You had to use third party chat applications such as IRQ to communicate with others.
Now, you have a additional standard means of communicating outside the game (voicechat, namely). Why chat when you can simply join a Vent channel and talk away? Socializing these days has become limited to guildmates and that rare group. But you take away the trinity and add DEs (or PQs whatever you want to call them) and there becomes little need to communicate any sort of strategy because the nature of the objectives have become so simple ("ZERG the opponent; TANK n SPANK").
GW2, for example is less about communication than it is about throwing a bunch of random avatars on the screen together (whose name you won't have a chance to see, much less remember) to take down a mob and then disperse 5 minutes later.
I think MMOs need a sort of trinity or specific roles and need to complicate the difficulty of encounters to bring back some of that element of communication. Otherwise, we just have these mass coop games where in order to enjoy a conversation you need to either play with established friends or join a guild, neither of which were needed ten years ago.
If you only stay in a MMO for one or two months can you truly say you enjoyed it? I don't know how long you guys are staying in your MMO's, but if you are getting through several a year you can't be staying that long. I would say at the 4 to 6 month point you could say that you have given the MMO a real chance to be the MMO for you.
But of course most of the player base is treating MMO's like any other solo game. The idea of playing for more than two months is an anathema to them.
Of course i can. If i am not truly enjoying the game after the first hour, why would i even play the second hour?
And why do i need to stay for 4-6 months? There is nothing wrong to level up the character a bit, enjoy a few dungeons, then move on.
Thanks for proving his point very aptly.
I don't see how that proved his point. Are you, like Scot, looking to build a relationship with a game? If so, that's fine, but to suggest that someone didn't enjoy a game because they didn't "give the MMO a real chance to be the MMO for them" is a rather... limited view, no?
It proves that the mentality has shifted to treating MMOs just like any other game, that you burn through and leave behind. Its small wonder themepark model has failed to expand post launch, and is constantly merging servers, because the themepark games are designed like singleplayer games.
In the past, MMOs were more about finding a virtual world to set roots into and spend a lot of time in. Now, they're like any other game.
Originally posted by Derros Lack of socialization is more due to lack of downtime that games like EQ used to have, as well as the elimination of spawn camping.
When you are sitting in 1 place for hours, waiting on mana, or spawns, of course you are going to talk to others, to help relieve the boredom.
Did you just really advocate boring your players to get them to talk to one another out of sheer lack of anything else to do?
Think about it, though. It seemed to me that it was during this downtime that most socialization took place. Maybe it the was the only good aspect of downtime, but it helped people be more talky
It is sometimes similar in real life, too. One may "socialize" more waiting for a bus with others (downtime), standing in line (downtime), or even just eating lunch (downtime). Smokers out on smoke break often times strike up conversations to pass the time. Not much socialization goes on when running a marathon or trying to meet a deadline.
Ahh but people use to...now, not so much with all the information tossed in our face about predators, kidnappers, and identity thefts. More and more people rather not associate with strangers because of the alarming rise of criminal acts against one another. The mentality now in days is if you have a flat, you no longer signal for help for the first available person. You call family and friends and pray no stranger stops by. If one does you immediately tell him "I got it. I have friends coming to help. Thanks"
Sounds awfully familar to the way our MMOs evolved...
Originally posted by Derros Lack of socialization is more due to lack of downtime that games like EQ used to have, as well as the elimination of spawn camping.
When you are sitting in 1 place for hours, waiting on mana, or spawns, of course you are going to talk to others, to help relieve the boredom.
Did you just really advocate boring your players to get them to talk to one another out of sheer lack of anything else to do?
Think about it, though. It seemed to me that it was during this downtime that most socialization took place. Maybe it the was the only good aspect of downtime, but it helped people be more talky
It is sometimes similar in real life, too. One may "socialize" more waiting for a bus with others (downtime), standing in line (downtime), or even just eating lunch (downtime). Smokers out on smoke break often times strike up conversations to pass the time. Not much socialization goes on when running a marathon or trying to meet a deadline.
I agree. In those situations, the person is simply looking for something to do to pass the time. The problem with MMOs isn't too much combat - it's that the MMOs have become only combat. There's no place to form social groups and no tools for forming social groups. It seems to me a far more productive path to go to create gameplay focused around social activity (if that is, in fact, what the dev wants in his game) than to deprive the player of gameplay in hopes that he will start socializing.
The latter was a situation created out of necessity in the earlier games, not out of desire.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If you only stay in a MMO for one or two months can you truly say you enjoyed it? I don't know how long you guys are staying in your MMO's, but if you are getting through several a year you can't be staying that long. I would say at the 4 to 6 month point you could say that you have given the MMO a real chance to be the MMO for you.
But of course most of the player base is treating MMO's like any other solo game. The idea of playing for more than two months is an anathema to them.
Of course i can. If i am not truly enjoying the game after the first hour, why would i even play the second hour?
And why do i need to stay for 4-6 months? There is nothing wrong to level up the character a bit, enjoy a few dungeons, then move on.
Thanks for proving his point very aptly.
I don't see how that proved his point. Are you, like Scot, looking to build a relationship with a game? If so, that's fine, but to suggest that someone didn't enjoy a game because they didn't "give the MMO a real chance to be the MMO for them" is a rather... limited view, no?
It proves that the mentality has shifted to treating MMOs just like any other game, that you burn through and leave behind. Its small wonder themepark model has failed to expand post launch, and is constantly merging servers, because the themepark games are designed like singleplayer games.
In the past, MMOs were more about finding a virtual world to set roots into and spend a lot of time in. Now, they're like any other game.
But it doesn't prove that he didn't enjoy it. What may take you 3 years to enjoy may only take him 2 months. Anyone who says otherwise honestly is ignorant of the fact that people are different.
Tbh, I don't think there's much room for socialization in modern MMO's.
The modern gameplay experience has had all the fluff and downtime removed. It presents the player with the most efficient path to gaining XP and finding exciting combat. No delays, no hassle. A player must never be required to move more than 10m ingame before finding an exciting and rewarding XP opportunity. Even finding the right group is automated, just tick the appropriate boxes in the Dungeon Finder, the game will do the rest.
I don't believe it's really the fault of "modern game design", because the games merely reflect what the majority of players want.
True socialization probably belongs in virtual world and sandbox-style games, where there's actually a point in talking to other people, and where a fair amount of other people might actually want to talk.
Originally posted by Derros Lack of socialization is more due to lack of downtime that games like EQ used to have, as well as the elimination of spawn camping. When you are sitting in 1 place for hours, waiting on mana, or spawns, of course you are going to talk to others, to help relieve the boredom.
Did you just really advocate boring your players to get them to talk to one another out of sheer lack of anything else to do?
Think about it, though. It seemed to me that it was during this downtime that most socialization took place. Maybe it the was the only good aspect of downtime, but it helped people be more talky It is sometimes similar in real life, too. One may "socialize" more waiting for a bus with others (downtime), standing in line (downtime), or even just eating lunch (downtime). Smokers out on smoke break often times strike up conversations to pass the time. Not much socialization goes on when running a marathon or trying to meet a deadline.
I agree. In those situations, the person is simply looking for something to do to pass the time. The problem with MMOs isn't too much combat - it's that the MMOs have become only combat. There's no place to form social groups and no tools for forming social groups. It seems to me a far more productive path to go to create gameplay focused around social activity (if that is, in fact, what the dev wants in his game) than to deprive the player of gameplay in hopes that he will start socializing. The latter was a situation created out of necessity in the earlier games, not out of desire.
Excellent point. Most of my cited situations are not "ideal", by any means There does need to be more than "just combat" in games to encourage socialization.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by maji Nope, grouping and being social is not the same. And dungeon finders are annoyng. If I want quick action, I play TF2.
Why limit yourself to ONE game for quick action?
When i want quick action, i play WOW, DCUO, D3, TF2, Borderland (2 soon) ... and many others depending on my mood.
And i love dungeon finders. Won't play a MMO without one.
You play almost every game, meaning you actually don't enjoy any game.
And you've made it pretty clear that being social in MMO's is not why you are there.
You need a logic 101 class. How do you reach that conclusion? I play many games precisely because i ENJOY them. Why would i play a game if i don't enjoy it? That is just silly. No one says i am allowed to enjoy only ONE game. And no one says i need to play one game forever if i enjoy it.
Yes, i am pretty clear. I play MMORPG for the GAME, not so that i can be in a chat room.
Generally speaking, when one enjoys a certain activity they tend to put extra focus on it, to the exclusion of other activities. (hence many people limit their game playing to one or even several games)
So while a person might enjoy playing golf, tennis and heck even basketball, they'll focus on one more than the others.
Just like most people don't play a dozen sports, or have a dozen hobbies such as stamp collecting, I have to wonder how much you are enjoying specific games when you jump so frequently from one to the next.
I guess if you view playing games as a sort of a universal thing, then I see where you are coming from, but overall most people have preferences and tend to devote more time to the activities they favor over others.
"A few weeks" is frequent?
I love the movie the Avenger .. but do you see me watching it months after months? I saw it may be like 3 times .. that is a total of less than 9 hours.
WAY less than a SP games .. like Dead Space .. which i probably spend 2-3 weeks on. And i love that game.
It is silling to equate time spent with "how much i like a particular piece of entertainment". The movie Avenger is as high on the list as Dead Space, and is as high on the list as Diablo 3 ....
And i spent very differnet amount of time on each. More time != "liking better".
Come on now, you can't compare apples to oranges, a movie is a decidedly fixed amount of content, you watch it a couple of times and you're done.
Games are interactive, there's progression, goals to master and achieve, even the chance to improve on your skills and get better at them.
MMO's are games taken to a whole different level in terms of progression, and I think you said yourself you've spent quite a bit of time progressing your character in D3 if I recall correctly. (so I'm assuming you enjoy that game quite a bit). Same for WOW as well.
I realize I'm probably a bit of an oddity, in that I play one game, and only one game to the exclusion of all else., but I can't imagine running around playing 20 different ones at the same time is all that normal either.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by maji Nope, grouping and being social is not the same. And dungeon finders are annoyng. If I want quick action, I play TF2.
Why limit yourself to ONE game for quick action?
When i want quick action, i play WOW, DCUO, D3, TF2, Borderland (2 soon) ... and many others depending on my mood.
And i love dungeon finders. Won't play a MMO without one.
You play almost every game, meaning you actually don't enjoy any game.
And you've made it pretty clear that being social in MMO's is not why you are there.
You need a logic 101 class. How do you reach that conclusion? I play many games precisely because i ENJOY them. Why would i play a game if i don't enjoy it? That is just silly. No one says i am allowed to enjoy only ONE game. And no one says i need to play one game forever if i enjoy it.
Yes, i am pretty clear. I play MMORPG for the GAME, not so that i can be in a chat room.
Generally speaking, when one enjoys a certain activity they tend to put extra focus on it, to the exclusion of other activities. (hence many people limit their game playing to one or even several games)
So while a person might enjoy playing golf, tennis and heck even basketball, they'll focus on one more than the others.
Just like most people don't play a dozen sports, or have a dozen hobbies such as stamp collecting, I have to wonder how much you are enjoying specific games when you jump so frequently from one to the next.
I guess if you view playing games as a sort of a universal thing, then I see where you are coming from, but overall most people have preferences and tend to devote more time to the activities they favor over others.
"A few weeks" is frequent?
I love the movie the Avenger .. but do you see me watching it months after months? I saw it may be like 3 times .. that is a total of less than 9 hours.
WAY less than a SP games .. like Dead Space .. which i probably spend 2-3 weeks on. And i love that game.
It is silling to equate time spent with "how much i like a particular piece of entertainment". The movie Avenger is as high on the list as Dead Space, and is as high on the list as Diablo 3 ....
And i spent very differnet amount of time on each. More time != "liking better".
Come on now, you can't compare apples to oranges, a movie is a decidedly fixed amount of content, you watch it a couple of times and you're done.
Games are interactive, there's progression, goals to master and achieve, even the chance to improve on your skills and get better at them.
MMO's are games taken to a whole different level in terms of progression, and I think you said yourself you've spent quite a bit of time progressing your character in D3 if I recall correctly. (so I'm assuming you enjoy that game quite a bit). Same for WOW as well.
I realize I'm probably a bit of an oddity, in that I play one game, and only one game to the exclusion of all else., but I can't imagine running around playing 20 different ones at the same time is all that normal either.
Yes, i can. Entertainment is entertainment. I am choosing between watching a movie, or play a SP game, or play a MMO, am i?
And yes, i spent months on D3 and years on WOW. However, i spent LESS time on DCUO, DDO and many other games.The point is that how could anyone say i do not like DCUO when i play that game for 10 hours?
The game i do not like .. i play for 1 or 2 (or sometimes way less than even that ) and quit (like Eve).
Tbh, I don't think there's much room for socialization in modern MMO's.
The modern gameplay experience has had all the fluff and downtime removed. It presents the player with the most efficient path to gaining XP and finding exciting combat. No delays, no hassle. A player must never be required to move more than 10m ingame before finding an exciting and rewarding XP opportunity. Even finding the right group is automated, just tick the appropriate boxes in the Dungeon Finder, the game will do the rest.
I don't believe it's really the fault of "modern game design", because the games merely reflect what the majority of players want.
True socialization probably belongs in virtual world and sandbox-style games, where there's actually a point in talking to other people, and where a fair amount of other people might actually want to talk.
Exactly .. i want exciting combat, in groups, with no delays and no hassle. I do not want dead time i have to chat. I do not want to stare at a boat for 20 ... heck or 10 min.
If you only stay in a MMO for one or two months can you truly say you enjoyed it? I don't know how long you guys are staying in your MMO's, but if you are getting through several a year you can't be staying that long. I would say at the 4 to 6 month point you could say that you have given the MMO a real chance to be the MMO for you.
But of course most of the player base is treating MMO's like any other solo game. The idea of playing for more than two months is an anathema to them.
Of course i can. If i am not truly enjoying the game after the first hour, why would i even play the second hour?
And why do i need to stay for 4-6 months? There is nothing wrong to level up the character a bit, enjoy a few dungeons, then move on.
Thanks for proving his point very aptly.
I don't see how that proved his point. Are you, like Scot, looking to build a relationship with a game? If so, that's fine, but to suggest that someone didn't enjoy a game because they didn't "give the MMO a real chance to be the MMO for them" is a rather... limited view, no?
It proves that the mentality has shifted to treating MMOs just like any other game, that you burn through and leave behind. Its small wonder themepark model has failed to expand post launch, and is constantly merging servers, because the themepark games are designed like singleplayer games.
In the past, MMOs were more about finding a virtual world to set roots into and spend a lot of time in. Now, they're like any other game.
Again, that's what they were for you. You're probably more of the Second Skin type of gamer. In the beginning no one was looking to set virtual roots because players had no clue wtf an MMORPG was. Heck, we didn't even have a name for it at the time. According to Nick Yee and recent data, 18 months+ is for the much more invested player. 4-8 months is the more likely retention rate.
To reiterate - playing an MMO for 4 months or so is not only normal behaviour, but it has been normal for about ten years now.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
On the one hand, communities themselves do breed attitude. Back in Quake 1 days, when online was more of a niche, the playerbase for Quake was a lot like the playerbase for the early MMOs. Inquisitive, creative, social (at least in game, haha)... Contrast that with today's FPS game communities.
So yeah, looking at it with some not-too-misplaced cynicism, I guess you can say how the communities behave is what it is, and no game mechanics will change that...
On the other hand, mechanics do breed attitude. You make socializing-inducing mechanics, players will tend to socialize more.
And never forget that the mechanics are also a bit Darwinian.
So yes, if you *force* people to be social, they will be social.
Or leave.
Which means the players who are OK with being social stay and make up the community of the game.
Which becomes a game with a social community.
Is that such a bad thing? Do all games have to try and appeal to every sort of gamer out there?
Tbh, I don't think there's much room for socialization in modern MMO's.
The modern gameplay experience has had all the fluff and downtime removed. It presents the player with the most efficient path to gaining XP and finding exciting combat. No delays, no hassle. A player must never be required to move more than 10m ingame before finding an exciting and rewarding XP opportunity. Even finding the right group is automated, just tick the appropriate boxes in the Dungeon Finder, the game will do the rest.
I don't believe it's really the fault of "modern game design", because the games merely reflect what the majority of players want.
True socialization probably belongs in virtual world and sandbox-style games, where there's actually a point in talking to other people, and where a fair amount of other people might actually want to talk.
Exactly .. i want exciting combat, in groups, with no delays and no hassle. I do not want dead time i have to chat. I do not want to stare at a boat for 20 ... heck or 10 min.
Nothing wrong with that as a preference, in fact, I'm occasionaly in such a mood myself...though I turn to FPS games when I'm looking for that. However I'd say what you want is a qualitatevly different experience then what many of us who are disatisfied with the experience on offer with most MMO's today are looking for.
Note, that I believe that the combat in the type of game we are looking for is no less exciting (at least for me) and is possibly even more so.... it's just less "unrelenting". You may have 5-20 minutes of exciting combat....but you'll also have significant periods of downtime before and after where you are preparing or recovering from said combat or analyzing what occured....or doing something else entirely. Those things are equaly enjoyable to us.... and they are not actualy "dead" time to us, because we are enjoying the activities that occur during them.
It's like when I used to go downhill skiing when I was younger (don't really get much time for it these days). I enjoyed going down the slopes alot....but I actualy enjoyed the time in the chairlift or gondola waiting to go up. Gave you a chance to catch your breath, meet other people, chat with them, take in the scenery or even just think about your technique. I would actualy miss the time in the lift, if it weren't there and it was just constantly going down the slopes. The time out was actualy a nice part of the experience.
Tbh, I don't think there's much room for socialization in modern MMO's.
The modern gameplay experience has had all the fluff and downtime removed. It presents the player with the most efficient path to gaining XP and finding exciting combat. No delays, no hassle. A player must never be required to move more than 10m ingame before finding an exciting and rewarding XP opportunity. Even finding the right group is automated, just tick the appropriate boxes in the Dungeon Finder, the game will do the rest.
I don't believe it's really the fault of "modern game design", because the games merely reflect what the majority of players want.
True socialization probably belongs in virtual world and sandbox-style games, where there's actually a point in talking to other people, and where a fair amount of other people might actually want to talk.
Exactly .. i want exciting combat, in groups, with no delays and no hassle. I do not want dead time i have to chat. I do not want to stare at a boat for 20 ... heck or 10 min.
Nothing wrong with that as a preference, in fact, I'm occasionaly in such a mood myself...though I turn to FPS games when I'm looking for that. However I'd say what you want is a qualitatevly different experience then what many of us who are disatisfied with the experience on offer with most MMO's today are looking for.
Note, that I believe that the combat in the type of game we are looking for is no less exciting (at least for me) and is possibly even more so.... it's just less "unrelenting". You may have 5-20 minutes of exciting combat....but you'll also have significant periods of downtime before and after where you are preparing or recovering from said combat or analyzing what occured....or doing something else entirely. Those things are equaly enjoyable to us.... and they are not actualy "dead" time to us, because we are enjoying the activities that occur during them.
It's like when I used to go downhill skiing when I was younger (don't really get much time for it these days). I enjoyed going down the slopes alot....but I actualy enjoyed the time in the chairlift or gondola waiting to go up. Gave you a chance to catch your breath, meet other people, chat with them, take in the scenery or even just think about your technique. I would actualy miss the time in the lift, if it weren't there and it was just constantly going down the slopes. The time out was actualy a nice part of the experience.
Pretty well stated-
Why would someone who wants "nonstop combat" play an MMO (EDIT: MMORPG- oops lol)? I am not sure but I am sure that the influx of these folks is the reason the genre has become merged with FPS and "pure Xtreme action", big explosions, pretty colors and shiny things....With little to no depth.
Comments
You know that is a wrong conclusion from what narius wrote.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
If you only stay in a MMO for one or two months can you truly say you enjoyed it? I don't know how long you guys are staying in your MMO's, but if you are getting through several a year you can't be staying that long. I would say at the 4 to 6 month point you could say that you have given the MMO a real chance to be the MMO for you.
But of course most of the player base is treating MMO's like any other solo game. The idea of playing for more than two months is an anathema to them.
You need a logic 101 class. How do you reach that conclusion? I play many games precisely because i ENJOY them. Why would i play a game if i don't enjoy it? That is just silly. No one says i am allowed to enjoy only ONE game. And no one says i need to play one game forever if i enjoy it.
Yes, i am pretty clear. I play MMORPG for the GAME, not so that i can be in a chat room.
Of course i can. If i am not truly enjoying the game after the first hour, why would i even play the second hour?
And why do i need to stay for 4-6 months? There is nothing wrong to level up the character a bit, enjoy a few dungeons, then move on.
Or god fobid, come back to play the game a bit more after a while.
Thanks for proving his point very aptly.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I don't see how that proved his point. Are you, like Scot, looking to build a relationship with a game? If so, that's fine, but to suggest that someone didn't enjoy a game because they didn't "give the MMO a real chance to be the MMO for them" is a rather... limited view, no?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Generally speaking, when one enjoys a certain activity they tend to put extra focus on it, to the exclusion of other activities. (hence many people limit their game playing to one or even several games)
So while a person might enjoy playing golf, tennis and heck even basketball, they'll focus on one more than the others.
Just like most people don't play a dozen sports, or have a dozen hobbies such as stamp collecting, I have to wonder how much you are enjoying specific games when you jump so frequently from one to the next.
I guess if you view playing games as a sort of a universal thing, then I see where you are coming from, but overall most people have preferences and tend to devote more time to the activities they favor over others.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"A few weeks" is frequent?
I love the movie the Avenger .. but do you see me watching it months after months? I saw it may be like 3 times .. that is a total of less than 9 hours.
WAY less than a SP games .. like Dead Space .. which i probably spend 2-3 weeks on. And i love that game.
It is silling to equate time spent with "how much i like a particular piece of entertainment". The movie Avenger is as high on the list as Dead Space, and is as high on the list as Diablo 3 ....
And i spent very differnet amount of time on each. More time != "liking better".
It is sometimes similar in real life, too. One may "socialize" more waiting for a bus with others (downtime), standing in line (downtime), or even just eating lunch (downtime). Smokers out on smoke break often times strike up conversations to pass the time. Not much socialization goes on when running a marathon or trying to meet a deadline.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I voted " They're bad; because it takes away the necessity to talk" but would have preferred a choice like: "They are both good and bad: they get you to group, but can be detrimental to social interaction."
PQs and DEs, while they get you to do an activity together, in their current form discourage social communication because A) you do not automatically form a group or raid and therefore have that channel created and
are mostly zerg-fests so no strategy is really needed to coordinate who does what and therefore eliminates the need to communicate.
Grouping and Social (Interaction) are not the same. While the first is about sharing activities, the second is about communicating.
The breakdown of the latter has happened with the post-WoW generation for a number of reasons (I think):
1) Originally, MMORPGs catered to roleplaying audiences.
2) Lack of social media/technology during MMORPG birth (such as Facebook and other social sites used for socializing)
3) Players have become less enamored by the genre and are more focused on the end-goal than the journey
When UO came around, there was no in-game chat. All you had was chat bubbles and were limited to what players were on screen. You had to use third party chat applications such as IRQ to communicate with others.
Now, you have a additional standard means of communicating outside the game (voicechat, namely). Why chat when you can simply join a Vent channel and talk away? Socializing these days has become limited to guildmates and that rare group. But you take away the trinity and add DEs (or PQs whatever you want to call them) and there becomes little need to communicate any sort of strategy because the nature of the objectives have become so simple ("ZERG the opponent; TANK n SPANK").
GW2, for example is less about communication than it is about throwing a bunch of random avatars on the screen together (whose name you won't have a chance to see, much less remember) to take down a mob and then disperse 5 minutes later.
I think MMOs need a sort of trinity or specific roles and need to complicate the difficulty of encounters to bring back some of that element of communication. Otherwise, we just have these mass coop games where in order to enjoy a conversation you need to either play with established friends or join a guild, neither of which were needed ten years ago.
There's different kinds of socializing, so no, they are not the same. Different games tend to evoke different kinds of socializing.
It proves that the mentality has shifted to treating MMOs just like any other game, that you burn through and leave behind. Its small wonder themepark model has failed to expand post launch, and is constantly merging servers, because the themepark games are designed like singleplayer games.
In the past, MMOs were more about finding a virtual world to set roots into and spend a lot of time in. Now, they're like any other game.
Ahh but people use to...now, not so much with all the information tossed in our face about predators, kidnappers, and identity thefts. More and more people rather not associate with strangers because of the alarming rise of criminal acts against one another. The mentality now in days is if you have a flat, you no longer signal for help for the first available person. You call family and friends and pray no stranger stops by. If one does you immediately tell him "I got it. I have friends coming to help. Thanks"
Sounds awfully familar to the way our MMOs evolved...
I agree. In those situations, the person is simply looking for something to do to pass the time. The problem with MMOs isn't too much combat - it's that the MMOs have become only combat. There's no place to form social groups and no tools for forming social groups. It seems to me a far more productive path to go to create gameplay focused around social activity (if that is, in fact, what the dev wants in his game) than to deprive the player of gameplay in hopes that he will start socializing.
The latter was a situation created out of necessity in the earlier games, not out of desire.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
But it doesn't prove that he didn't enjoy it. What may take you 3 years to enjoy may only take him 2 months. Anyone who says otherwise honestly is ignorant of the fact that people are different.
Tbh, I don't think there's much room for socialization in modern MMO's.
The modern gameplay experience has had all the fluff and downtime removed. It presents the player with the most efficient path to gaining XP and finding exciting combat. No delays, no hassle. A player must never be required to move more than 10m ingame before finding an exciting and rewarding XP opportunity. Even finding the right group is automated, just tick the appropriate boxes in the Dungeon Finder, the game will do the rest.
I don't believe it's really the fault of "modern game design", because the games merely reflect what the majority of players want.
True socialization probably belongs in virtual world and sandbox-style games, where there's actually a point in talking to other people, and where a fair amount of other people might actually want to talk.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Come on now, you can't compare apples to oranges, a movie is a decidedly fixed amount of content, you watch it a couple of times and you're done.
Games are interactive, there's progression, goals to master and achieve, even the chance to improve on your skills and get better at them.
MMO's are games taken to a whole different level in terms of progression, and I think you said yourself you've spent quite a bit of time progressing your character in D3 if I recall correctly. (so I'm assuming you enjoy that game quite a bit). Same for WOW as well.
I realize I'm probably a bit of an oddity, in that I play one game, and only one game to the exclusion of all else., but I can't imagine running around playing 20 different ones at the same time is all that normal either.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yes, i can. Entertainment is entertainment. I am choosing between watching a movie, or play a SP game, or play a MMO, am i?
And yes, i spent months on D3 and years on WOW. However, i spent LESS time on DCUO, DDO and many other games.The point is that how could anyone say i do not like DCUO when i play that game for 10 hours?
The game i do not like .. i play for 1 or 2 (or sometimes way less than even that ) and quit (like Eve).
Exactly .. i want exciting combat, in groups, with no delays and no hassle. I do not want dead time i have to chat. I do not want to stare at a boat for 20 ... heck or 10 min.
Again, that's what they were for you. You're probably more of the Second Skin type of gamer. In the beginning no one was looking to set virtual roots because players had no clue wtf an MMORPG was. Heck, we didn't even have a name for it at the time.
According to Nick Yee and recent data, 18 months+ is for the much more invested player. 4-8 months is the more likely retention rate.
To reiterate - playing an MMO for 4 months or so is not only normal behaviour, but it has been normal for about ten years now.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Hmm...
On the one hand, communities themselves do breed attitude. Back in Quake 1 days, when online was more of a niche, the playerbase for Quake was a lot like the playerbase for the early MMOs. Inquisitive, creative, social (at least in game, haha)... Contrast that with today's FPS game communities.
So yeah, looking at it with some not-too-misplaced cynicism, I guess you can say how the communities behave is what it is, and no game mechanics will change that...
On the other hand, mechanics do breed attitude. You make socializing-inducing mechanics, players will tend to socialize more.
And never forget that the mechanics are also a bit Darwinian.
So yes, if you *force* people to be social, they will be social.
Or leave.
Which means the players who are OK with being social stay and make up the community of the game.
Which becomes a game with a social community.
Is that such a bad thing? Do all games have to try and appeal to every sort of gamer out there?
Nothing wrong with that as a preference, in fact, I'm occasionaly in such a mood myself...though I turn to FPS games when I'm looking for that. However I'd say what you want is a qualitatevly different experience then what many of us who are disatisfied with the experience on offer with most MMO's today are looking for.
Note, that I believe that the combat in the type of game we are looking for is no less exciting (at least for me) and is possibly even more so.... it's just less "unrelenting". You may have 5-20 minutes of exciting combat....but you'll also have significant periods of downtime before and after where you are preparing or recovering from said combat or analyzing what occured....or doing something else entirely. Those things are equaly enjoyable to us.... and they are not actualy "dead" time to us, because we are enjoying the activities that occur during them.
It's like when I used to go downhill skiing when I was younger (don't really get much time for it these days). I enjoyed going down the slopes alot....but I actualy enjoyed the time in the chairlift or gondola waiting to go up. Gave you a chance to catch your breath, meet other people, chat with them, take in the scenery or even just think about your technique. I would actualy miss the time in the lift, if it weren't there and it was just constantly going down the slopes. The time out was actualy a nice part of the experience.
Pretty well stated-
Why would someone who wants "nonstop combat" play an MMO (EDIT: MMORPG- oops lol)? I am not sure but I am sure that the influx of these folks is the reason the genre has become merged with FPS and "pure Xtreme action", big explosions, pretty colors and shiny things....With little to no depth.