Its the GW2 fans who said GW2 didn't have a grind which the OP has clearly pointed out they do.
The truth hurts sometimes, we know.
There is no unified entity known as "the GW2 fans" who have a singular, uniform stance on grinding or, in fact, even the same definition of "grind." A number of 15+ page threads on this very forum can illustrate this. This is the single most common fallacy made on these forums:
Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes claim Y.
Both persons A and B are fans of the same game (GW2 in this example).
GW2 fans are saying both X and Y, which is hypocrtical/contradictory! Caught you!
In reality, various "GW2 fans" have held various positions on the matter, again, which is easily demonstrable by viewing past threads where GW2 fans debated each other about how the end game "grind" would feel (because that's what grind is, a feeling of repetitiveness.) Something that feels grindy to one person may not to another. Indeed, many of the items listed on this list won't feel grindy at all to many players. And that's part of the beauty of GW2: you play the parts of the game you want, earn the same level rewards, and you're never forced to do anything you don't want to over and over again, aka grind.
If I would have said "Its all the GW2 fans" then your point would be valid. But I didn't.
"It's the GW2 fans" implies all fans and you know it. When someone says "WoW fans" or "Red Sox fans" or "Tolkien fans" there is not an implied "some" before each of them. It's basic language we all use and isn't subject to misinterpretation. They are universally statements of generalization. Don't try to pretend otherwise now.
Its the GW2 fans who said GW2 didn't have a grind which the OP has clearly pointed out they do.
The truth hurts sometimes, we know.
There is no unified entity known as "the GW2 fans" who have a singular, uniform stance on grinding or, in fact, even the same definition of "grind." A number of 15+ page threads on this very forum can illustrate this. This is the single most common fallacy made on these forums:
Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes claim Y.
Both persons A and B are fans of the same game (GW2 in this example).
GW2 fans are saying both X and Y, which is hypocrtical/contradictory! Caught you!
In reality, various "GW2 fans" have held various positions on the matter, again, which is easily demonstrable by viewing past threads where GW2 fans debated each other about how the end game "grind" would feel (because that's what grind is, a feeling of repetitiveness.) Something that feels grindy to one person may not to another. Indeed, many of the items listed on this list won't feel grindy at all to many players. And that's part of the beauty of GW2: you play the parts of the game you want, earn the same level rewards, and you're never forced to do anything you don't want to over and over again, aka grind.
If I would have said "Its all the GW2 fans" then your point would be valid. But I didn't.
"It's the GW2 fans" implies all fans and you know it. When someone says "WoW fans" or "Red Sox fans" or "Tolkien fans" there is not an implied "some" before each of them. It's basic language we all use and isn't subject to misinterpretation. They are universally statements of generalization. Don't try to pretend otherwise now.
Its the GW2 fans could also be..."Its the GW fans that think there is no grind".......
Like in UO, you know what I was doing before I was 7X GM?
The same stuff I was doing after I was 7X GM.
It is "different" than most other themepark MMOs in that sense, but not unique to GW2 and actually quite common in the sandbox sub-genre.
Again I think this list was put together to combat the "nothing to do at 80" crowd, not put together to tout how "revolutionary and different GW2 end-game is" because it's really not - it's just different then a lot of themepark MMOs.
Macroing before 7X GM
Not macroing after 7X GM
GW2= Nothing like UO in any sense of the meaning.
Some of us actually didn't macro in UO. Some of us actually played and enjoyed the game.
And post Trammel/Felucca split UO pre-LBR is more similar in design philosophy and "feel" to GW2 than GW2 is similar to any EQ/WoW/Post-Wow themepark.
But that's off topic.
The list is dumb - but I believe was just made to show the obvious logical flaws in the "there is nothing to do at 80" comments we keep seeing.
No, there is no raiding and gear treadmill, but there is plenty to do at 80.
Ya'll need to lighten up!
Well yeah I see the point, but it doesn't help much to those who got bored during the climb to level cap.
I see it kind of like how it ends up for people in those damned endgame raid MMOs that reach cap but don't like raiding.
DUDE 1: "WOOT! Made it to level cap! What now guys!?"
RAID DUDES: "You can join us and RAID!!!"
DUDE 1: "Oh . . . I don't like raiding."
RAID DUDES: "Well you can FUCK OFF then!"
DUDE1: "sigh"
I'm going to come clean here and say that beacsue this^ has been my experience (as Dude1), I do actually prefer the horizontal, go-back-and-do-what-you-missed movement of GW2. Which is to say "I hate endgame (raiding especially)".
EXACTLY.
Originally posted by mbolme I honestly don't understand the issue. If you don't like the game, stop playing. It was designed in a particular way, and the entire game seems to me to be built to a consistent philosophy. (Do what you want - we won't stop you.) I love it and will play it a long time. If you don't, find a game you like and play that.
1-80: Start looking for an MMO with actual endgame.
ahahaha agree 100%
Funny thing is the "actual" end game is the same as this list in all mmorpgs. Grind for gear. Grind for titles. Grind for rankings.
And by all you mean most themepark MMORPGs.
Yeah, cause there is NEVER any grinding in Sandbox MMOs....
Well, to be fair, sandbox MMORPG's are different- instead of playing for some amount of time before grinding, you get to start grinding as soon as you get in the game.
In WoW there's over 800 things to do...749, without MoP, is achievements lol. I'm an achievement junky, I got almost every achievement pre-MoP, except for like 3 of the legendary weapons achievements.
Edit: I like posting in the forums and that 8735 achievement points is right below my name hehehe
If you get to the end, and have fun, keep playing. If you get to the end, and do not have fun, quit, maybe come back later when they add something.
Why do people make this so damn difficult?
I know some people wanted this to be the game that they could play for "years," and perhaps what we are seeing are those people who now feel cheated by the way the game is panning out for them, who knows.
I am having fun, but I can already tell this will not be a game I am playing in a year, not unless they add a buttload of content between now and then.
In my experience GW2 became extremely boring after I have reached lvl 80 and can't play with friends whenever I want (different playtimes due to rl). And I have like 65% of the world explored with a single char.
IVe been doing explorable mode since 40. Its not something yyou do only at 80
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni ( o.o) (")(") **This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
I find it funny how GW2 was supposed to be all different yet now we have boiled down DEs to random quests that spawns on the map and the DE bosses are similar (the same?) as elite mobs in other games. So we have elite mobs in the open world, dumbed down (mindless as mentioned in this thread) questing, and tons of title, rep, gear grinding at max level.
So how exactly is GW2 any different from other MMOs?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I find it funny how GW2 was supposed to be all different yet now we have boiled down DEs to random quests that spawns on the map and the DE bosses are similar (the same?) as elite mobs in other games. So we have elite mobs in the open world, dumbed down (mindless as mentioned in this thread) questing, and tons of title, rep, gear grinding at max level.
So how exactly is GW2 any different from other MMOs?
How is it different?
Lets address your points...
You don't want elite mobs in the open world? You think that all monsters should be normalized and be exactly the same? Wait, I know... You want to have bosses the way there are in dungeons!!! Well, guess what. Expecting anyone to tune a real boss fight so that it scales to be doable by anywhere from 2 to 200 players is ridiculous. You have "World Bosses" in GW2 and some are just suped up versions of their counterparts, and others are actually bosses with their own interesting mechanics... But all of them, even many of the dragons, are kept in certain basic constraints. While it would be cool to see full dungeon boss mechanics, imagine if pre-BC WoW allowed any number of people into MC, or made it part of the open world instead of instanced. Would it have been as challenging to take the stuff down in there with 200 players as it was with 40? The game has multiple ranks of monsters. You have regular mobs(with regular portraits), veteran rank 1(silver border on portrait), veteran rank 2(gold border on portrait), champion(gold border with crossed swords), ???? (purple border with swords and stylized flames), and bosses in dungeons(never noticed which border they have). Each rank is harder than the one before it and has more unique mechanics.
A few people have claimed that the questing is "dumbed down" or "mindless", but I am going to go out on a limb and say that for the most part either they haven't played very far into the game, or else they are having trouble figuring out what is going on around them. When I got to the straits of desolation I was the same... It took me a while of playing in the zone to understand what was happening(it helped a LOT when I went back and started reading all the lore objects, etc.). In the straits you have your forward base of operation, 3 fronts on which the pact forces need to secure in order to be able to assault Orr, etc... And it is actually a war-front. Now being that it is a high level and people are still capping out, there are enough people there that most of the time we hold at least 2 of the 3 fronts successfully on my server. But similar situations exist in earlier zones, and when you get to a point in a DE where it splits into 2 or more DEs and you have to decide which effort to support, or where you fail the DE and you need to help them retreat or pull back to another point, etc... That isn't just mindless dumbed down questing. In WoW, when people would right click on a quest giver, scroll past the text, and hit accept. Open quest log and see "go to point X and kill 15 of monster Y", and they go, do that, and return... That is dumbed down. You talk about how other people in the thread mentioned that it is mindless... How about telling me what you think of the questing, and if you think it is mindless please tell me a bit about your experience with it...
Yes, there is lots of stuff to get at max level that will take lots and lots of work to pick up. All of it has less epic looking counterparts which you can get for much less investment... And that is your prerogative. Everything is optional. There is no "end-game" in any game which doesn't involve some grind, because you are defining grind as anything where you need to do something repetitively. The problem in this case is that you apply it to something like getting your legendary weapons... "Well, I need 200 skill points to get my legendary weapon, so I am going to grind skill points". Guess what, you get skill points 2 ways, by leveling(and yes, you can keep leveling after 80 for more skill points, and it is flat leveling still) or by doing skill challenges. Do you consider going back through all the zones and doing the skill challenges a grind? Maybe, I personally don't...
You basically came out and said "lets strip all context from everything and give the most meaninglessly general descriptions of everything we possibly can, and then ask how it is different from every other game!". Well, we can do that kind of generalization ad-infinitum. I saw someone do it with pong earlier, also with WoW(in a very nice loop script). How about this... GW2 is just a piece of software where multiple users interact with the code and there is a graphical representation of their actions. How is GW2 any different from any other piece of software?
DEs for the most part are not random. DEs are strongly story driven, follow a logical path, are a great delivery medium for lore and characters(if you bother to stop and listen to the npcs, etc.), etc. etc. etc. DE bosses are elite... whooptee doo. Guess what, there are DEs that don't even have "bosses". There are DEs that don't even have fighting.
If you have played the game, why are you asking me how it is different... Play it, it is self-evident. Just leave your pre-conceived notions at the door.
Level 80 and the best gear in the game, what next?
Go hop around the WvWvW and fight in a massive zerg where you gear doesn't weight anything?
Not to mention you can buy the equal items from auction house so just a little RMT and anyone reaches the same point.
GW2 is ridden with the same problem than D3 and that's not even a MMORPG.
WTF?
20 dollars is 3 gold and some change(I hope you understand what I'm saying)
Be easy and enjoy life guys, peace.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Why are so many people vested in promoting this weird continuous warfare between Brand X and Brand Z?
All the same sterling fellow. Damn, he is so attractive. And the prose he generates, very effulgent.
Never mind, 'forum pvp', of course. Nothing will stem this tide (except Pandas--give them something else to do, maybe?)
Well thats ruined my theory that included the words, sides, two and coin.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Unlock all available skills for your profession / race
Raise your crafting disciplines to skill level 400
Earn enough gold to purchase a racial armor set
Earn enough karma to purchase an exotic armor set
Play through all dungeons in story mode
Complete all dungeons in explorable mode
Complete all 33 possible explorable mode dungeon paths
Earn enough dungeon tokens to purchase a set of armor
Collect a set of armor from each dungeon in the game
Start a petition to make the Undead Orrian Chicken a new necro minion
Earn enough karma to purchase a racial weapon
Craft an exotic weapon for your character
Craft an exotic armor set for your character
Purchase a Dragon’s Deep weapon
Earn all possible PvE titles
Experiment with new builds for your profession
Discover all possible recipes for your crafting disciplines
Master all crafting disciplines
Experiment with the Mystic Forge
Create a Mystic weapon in the Mystic Forge
Craft a legendary weapon in the Mystic Forge
Explore all areas in the game
Find and use a vial of black dye
Find a vial of black dye and give it to a friend
Create or purchase a full set of 20 slot bags
Give Logan a wedgie
Participate in the Norn Keg Brawl
Unlock all Keg Brawl achievements
Create a new character to experience a different profession / race
Participate in structured PvP
Raise your sPvP rank
Achieve the rank of Ascendant in sPvP
Complete your favorite sPvP cosmetic armor set
Collect new cosmetic weapon skins for sPvP
Unlock all possible cosmetic weapon and armor skins in sPvP
Earn all sPvP titles
Find and complete all 31 jumping puzzles
Complete the current Monthly achievements
Help your guild earn influence to unlock additional perks
Outrun a centaur
Charm all possible pets as a Ranger
Create an all-ranger guild called Team Rocket, lose constantly in sPvP
Collect all 101 types of cooking materials
Fill every collection slot in the bank with at least one item
Participate in World versus World
Help your world win in WvW
Defeat enough enemy players in WvW to complete the medal
Complete the awesome Yakslapper achievement in WvW
Complete all WvW achievements
Build and use all siege weapon types in WvW
Earn all possible WvW Titles
Play the organ in Caledon forest, and party with the Quaggan
Earn enough gold to purchase a Commander Tome
Visit the monument to Killeen and pay your respects
Defeat the Shatterer
Defeat the Claw of Jormag
Defeat Tequatl the Sunless
Add new friends to your friend’s list
Organize an in-game event for your guild
Complete every map in the game
Participate in meta events
Discover and participate in new dynamic events
Collect stacks of butter and butter prank your friends
Learn the ins and outs of the Trading Post
Get rich selling Globs of Ectoplasm
Buy a Box o’ Fun and throw a party in Lion’s Arch
Complete an armor set for your character’s Order
Read all of the books in Divinity's Reach
Read the story of how Ebonhawke was founded
Complete all possible weapon achievements for your character
Defeat the Champion of Grenth and purchase the exotic armor set
Write about your level 80 experience, have it published on GW2Hub
Purchase a set of armor from the guild armorsmith
Purchase a set of weapons from the guild weaponsmith
Complete all Slayer achievements
Complete the Lifetime Survivor achievement
Go skydiving in Arah after defeating Zhaitan
Have fun!
So according to the "experts" this is the list of different and fun things you are supposed to be able to do at lv 80.
I love how the 90% of it is :
-Grind for Gear
-Grind for achievements
-Grind for collect random crap
-Spam dungeons like crazy
But hey, it´s GW2, that automatically makes it non-grind and fun apparently, even though any other game would be burned to death if they presented such a list as "endgame content"
I like the game, i have bought gems two times already to support it, and i will keep getting the expansions and whatever they throw at us because i enjoy the game, but it came to a moment where anything gw2 does is automatically holy and fun for no other reason that it´s gw2
And this is why i hate this game´s fanbois much more than i do hate the haters, despite the fact i do enjoy the game myself.
This is getting ridiculous.
since when has GW not been about grinding... some people i guess dont understand this. The game is inheirantly grindy. all points are valid. not really a fanboi but when one buys GW2 without playing the first guildwars is where you run into some trouble with understanding of the presented list. it doesnt take a fanboi. just someone to have played teh first game
What do you think is supposed to happen at the end of a video game? You're b-tching because a game has 80 things to grind for in an industry where most other products have 5?
GW2's "endgame grind" at least for fixing up your character statwise is basically just a grind for money...which is nice since you can take any sort of path you want to make money. Everything makes money (even exploring)
The difference between GW2s grind and say WoW's grind is that in GW2 you don't get more powerful for grinding past level 80 and your first set of exotic armor. You aren't barred from content for not having done a dungeon 9048123-58190285 times to get 1 set of armor. Thats why people say GW2 isn't a grinding game.
Comments
"It's the GW2 fans" implies all fans and you know it. When someone says "WoW fans" or "Red Sox fans" or "Tolkien fans" there is not an implied "some" before each of them. It's basic language we all use and isn't subject to misinterpretation. They are universally statements of generalization. Don't try to pretend otherwise now.
Its the GW2 fans could also be..."Its the GW fans that think there is no grind".......
You are reading it how you want to read it.
EXACTLY.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Well, to be fair, sandbox MMORPG's are different- instead of playing for some amount of time before grinding, you get to start grinding as soon as you get in the game.
In WoW there's over 800 things to do...749, without MoP, is achievements lol. I'm an achievement junky, I got almost every achievement pre-MoP, except for like 3 of the legendary weapons achievements.
Edit: I like posting in the forums and that 8735 achievement points is right below my name hehehe
I have never seen so many mod edits in 2 pages. lol
edit: the first 2
If you get to the end, and have fun, keep playing. If you get to the end, and do not have fun, quit, maybe come back later when they add something.
Why do people make this so damn difficult?
I know some people wanted this to be the game that they could play for "years," and perhaps what we are seeing are those people who now feel cheated by the way the game is panning out for them, who knows.
I am having fun, but I can already tell this will not be a game I am playing in a year, not unless they add a buttload of content between now and then.
In my experience GW2 became extremely boring after I have reached lvl 80 and can't play with friends whenever I want (different playtimes due to rl). And I have like 65% of the world explored with a single char.
Cheers.
It's not that there isn't "stuff" to do at 80.
It's that there's no incentive to do so.
Level 80 and the best gear in the game, what next?
Go hop around the WvWvW and fight in a massive zerg where you gear doesn't weight anything?
Not to mention you can buy the equal items from auction house so just a little RMT and anyone reaches the same point.
GW2 is ridden with the same problem than D3 and that's not even a MMORPG.
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
( o.o)
(")(")
**This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
Many pvpers see the absence of poopsocking to win as a bonus, and making pvp better.
I find it funny how GW2 was supposed to be all different yet now we have boiled down DEs to random quests that spawns on the map and the DE bosses are similar (the same?) as elite mobs in other games. So we have elite mobs in the open world, dumbed down (mindless as mentioned in this thread) questing, and tons of title, rep, gear grinding at max level.
So how exactly is GW2 any different from other MMOs?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
well said.
I got a mod edit while I was typing a post.... True story .....................
kinda
How is it different?
Lets address your points...
You don't want elite mobs in the open world? You think that all monsters should be normalized and be exactly the same? Wait, I know... You want to have bosses the way there are in dungeons!!! Well, guess what. Expecting anyone to tune a real boss fight so that it scales to be doable by anywhere from 2 to 200 players is ridiculous. You have "World Bosses" in GW2 and some are just suped up versions of their counterparts, and others are actually bosses with their own interesting mechanics... But all of them, even many of the dragons, are kept in certain basic constraints. While it would be cool to see full dungeon boss mechanics, imagine if pre-BC WoW allowed any number of people into MC, or made it part of the open world instead of instanced. Would it have been as challenging to take the stuff down in there with 200 players as it was with 40? The game has multiple ranks of monsters. You have regular mobs(with regular portraits), veteran rank 1(silver border on portrait), veteran rank 2(gold border on portrait), champion(gold border with crossed swords), ???? (purple border with swords and stylized flames), and bosses in dungeons(never noticed which border they have). Each rank is harder than the one before it and has more unique mechanics.
A few people have claimed that the questing is "dumbed down" or "mindless", but I am going to go out on a limb and say that for the most part either they haven't played very far into the game, or else they are having trouble figuring out what is going on around them. When I got to the straits of desolation I was the same... It took me a while of playing in the zone to understand what was happening(it helped a LOT when I went back and started reading all the lore objects, etc.). In the straits you have your forward base of operation, 3 fronts on which the pact forces need to secure in order to be able to assault Orr, etc... And it is actually a war-front. Now being that it is a high level and people are still capping out, there are enough people there that most of the time we hold at least 2 of the 3 fronts successfully on my server. But similar situations exist in earlier zones, and when you get to a point in a DE where it splits into 2 or more DEs and you have to decide which effort to support, or where you fail the DE and you need to help them retreat or pull back to another point, etc... That isn't just mindless dumbed down questing. In WoW, when people would right click on a quest giver, scroll past the text, and hit accept. Open quest log and see "go to point X and kill 15 of monster Y", and they go, do that, and return... That is dumbed down. You talk about how other people in the thread mentioned that it is mindless... How about telling me what you think of the questing, and if you think it is mindless please tell me a bit about your experience with it...
Yes, there is lots of stuff to get at max level that will take lots and lots of work to pick up. All of it has less epic looking counterparts which you can get for much less investment... And that is your prerogative. Everything is optional. There is no "end-game" in any game which doesn't involve some grind, because you are defining grind as anything where you need to do something repetitively. The problem in this case is that you apply it to something like getting your legendary weapons... "Well, I need 200 skill points to get my legendary weapon, so I am going to grind skill points". Guess what, you get skill points 2 ways, by leveling(and yes, you can keep leveling after 80 for more skill points, and it is flat leveling still) or by doing skill challenges. Do you consider going back through all the zones and doing the skill challenges a grind? Maybe, I personally don't...
You basically came out and said "lets strip all context from everything and give the most meaninglessly general descriptions of everything we possibly can, and then ask how it is different from every other game!". Well, we can do that kind of generalization ad-infinitum. I saw someone do it with pong earlier, also with WoW(in a very nice loop script). How about this... GW2 is just a piece of software where multiple users interact with the code and there is a graphical representation of their actions. How is GW2 any different from any other piece of software?
DEs for the most part are not random. DEs are strongly story driven, follow a logical path, are a great delivery medium for lore and characters(if you bother to stop and listen to the npcs, etc.), etc. etc. etc. DE bosses are elite... whooptee doo. Guess what, there are DEs that don't even have "bosses". There are DEs that don't even have fighting.
If you have played the game, why are you asking me how it is different... Play it, it is self-evident. Just leave your pre-conceived notions at the door.
WTF?
20 dollars is 3 gold and some change(I hope you understand what I'm saying)
Be easy and enjoy life guys, peace.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Well thats ruined my theory that included the words, sides, two and coin.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
The real game in GW2 is PVP aka W v W v W, in the same vein as DAOC, which is still enjoying some degree of success.
W v W v W is a large component of the game, inciting ooh's and ahh's from across the gaming world...
You knew this coming in, why complain now?
81. Eat an entire mahogany dining table as an encore.
Jk jk... Nice list. I like the Give Logan a wedgie one. We must have an option to do that.
how so?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher