And longetivity matters when there's no subscription?
Not IMO.
90% of GW2 players I know personally or have met online actually do other things. Like other games, other hobbies. You think I'm going to sit playing GW2 when there's a football or hockey (DAMN YOU LOCKOUT WTFISTHISSHITAGAIN AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH) on?
All I can say is that if I get one tenth the amount of time in entertainment, as is devoted by haters trying to point out any small flaw that they can find with GW2, than it will deliver in spades.
I don't need the game to provide 8760 hours of quality entertainment in a year, and I feel sorry for the people that think "hardcore player" is a positive term.
Thats what you (and many) are missing.
Many of us "haters" (if you include me) love the game. We are discussing faults we find in a game we are enjoying.
Look, I want there to be choices. Different types of games. I want a Sandbox game to play, a Theme Park game to Play, a casual Game to Play, a Strategy game to play, a card game to play. I do not want GW2 to be "another WOW" clone . But we can find fault and discuss it- Reasons we think the game isnt as good as it could be- Things we think it lacks.
This does not mean we "hate" the game or want the game to be a "raid" game, etc, etc, etc..
it was just an observation of haters in general, and not directed towards you or the OP. Basically I just meant to say, if I can get as much time loving the game, as haters spend hating, than I will be very happy.
No I know =P
Its just getting impossible to discuss anything without being attacked, labeled as a hater or told to go back to a "raid" game. A percieved negative towards GW2 is trreated as if you have insulted someones Mother or Race- Its getting pretty bad.
Just the other night I was telling my Wife about a feature in GW2 which I thought was shallow- I locked the door, closed the blinds and curtains and whispered as quietly as I could...I wasnt even finished when the Curtains popped open and a midget screamed "You are wrong- Heres 88 reasons why...."
The point is, this game is about 3 weeks old. I dont think it has longevity (but doesnt need it). This doesnt mean I "have no life" or am outside the ideals of the "average gamer" etc, etc... It means I find it too shallow and do not see what really happens at end game. WVW is kinda a zerg.
Is still think its fun.
But to go on and on about how I am wrong and there is X to do and Y to do , blah, blah- Games 3 weeks old. Tell me about all that in 3 months.
It's also getting pretty tiring hearing about so many little things under the title of "EPIC FAIL" I seen so many hate posts that just want to take a poke at GW2. I'm surprised I haven't been reading "Too Much Butter, another Anet EPIC FAIL" threads. So remember that the frustrations are on both sides of the fence.
As for the zerg thing in WvW, I've never understood it. How do you not have a zerg when there is 100 people vs?
Longevity in MMO stems from two things: social bonds and character investment. While GW2 is strong in a few traits, it is lacking greatly in these two things.
Social bonds form when not only is grouping required, but reputation matters (i.e. not just grouping with any warm body, but actually knowing the people you're grouping with and knowing they aren't terrible in either attitude or at computer games).
Character investment is formed, in part, over time. No feeling of investment in character when you've hit level cap and have top gear in less than 2 weeks.
And it's fine though, because GW2 wasn't created for people who seek these two traits from games.
All I can say is that if I get one tenth the amount of time in entertainment, as is devoted by haters trying to point out any small flaw that they can find with GW2, than it will deliver in spades.
I don't need the game to provide 8760 hours of quality entertainment in a year, and I feel sorry for the people that think "hardcore player" is a positive term.
Thats what you (and many) are missing.
Many of us "haters" (if you include me) love the game. We are discussing faults we find in a game we are enjoying.
Look, I want there to be choices. Different types of games. I want a Sandbox game to play, a Theme Park game to Play, a casual Game to Play, a Strategy game to play, a card game to play. I do not want GW2 to be "another WOW" clone . But we can find fault and discuss it- Reasons we think the game isnt as good as it could be- Things we think it lacks.
This does not mean we "hate" the game or want the game to be a "raid" game, etc, etc, etc..
it was just an observation of haters in general, and not directed towards you or the OP. Basically I just meant to say, if I can get as much time loving the game, as haters spend hating, than I will be very happy.
No I know =P
Its just getting impossible to discuss anything without being attacked, labeled as a hater or told to go back to a "raid" game. A percieved negative towards GW2 is trreated as if you have insulted someones Mother or Race- Its getting pretty bad.
Just the other night I was telling my Wife about a feature in GW2 which I thought was shallow- I locked the door, closed the blinds and curtains and whispered as quietly as I could...I wasnt even finished when the Curtains popped open and a midget screamed "You are wrong- Heres 88 reasons why...."
The point is, this game is about 3 weeks old. I dont think it has longevity (but doesnt need it). This doesnt mean I "have no life" or am outside the ideals of the "average gamer" etc, etc... It means I find it too shallow and do not see what really happens at end game. WVW is kinda a zerg.
Is still think its fun.
But to go on and on about how I am wrong and there is X to do and Y to do , blah, blah- Games 3 weeks old. Tell me about all that in 3 months.
It's also getting pretty tiring hearing about so many little things under the title of "EPIC FAIL" I seen so many hate posts that just want to take a poke at GW2. I'm surprised I haven't been reading "Too Much Butter, another Anet EPIC FAIL" threads. So remember that the frustrations are on both sides of the fence.
As for the zerg thing in WvW, I've never understood it. How do you not have a zerg when there is 100 people vs?
Look at DAOC for that answer-
Thre will always be some "zergishness" (is that a word- lol) to mass combat- But having specialized classes required far more complex strategy (and less Zerg) while mass combat ensued. In GW2 its so far just spamming buttons with everyone else and the largest group with the fastest spamming skills wins.
I will watch the Video later if I have time- But honestly I do not need to...Pretty sure I know whats said.
I agree too- It does lack longevity. Its not a full fledged MMORPG (more like an ARPG with Massive Online components). Its very casual...
But, its fun. And it doesnt need Longevity like a subscription title,
GW2 has done some very creative marketing and essentially sold a F2P cash shop game for $50- $60. Then they will get a small Xpac out every year or so for another $40- $50. Most have at least purchased Bag space from the CS... They are making money hand over fist and do not NEED high player retention (just enough to keep the servers active) and each Xpac will bring an influx of former players back to the game for a short time.
This was a genius marketing Blitz. And the game is fun.
No. It doesnt have "staying power" and if it were based on a "sub" I would feel pretty ripped off and (obviously) not re sub...But they already sold me a box and some Bag Space and I play a few hours a week (and plan to play at a casual rate) and it makes a nice second Online game to play while taking a break from your main Game.
I am happy.
I think that if you go into GW2 with that mindset, you will be happy. For those reasons, I am happy, and I do not regret my purchase.
I do take offense when people behave as if their ability to see longevity in the game is a sign of mental superiority. I never shyed away from the idea that GW2 will have players enjoying the game for years because the original GW1 had longterm hardcore players. As a mainstream title though, GW1 lost a lot of steam after the release of Eye of the North, and I am only referring to GW2's ability to retain and grow its current playerbase.
We can refer to the Diablo style item grind as skinner box gameplay or carrot dangling all we want, but the fact of the matter is, that style of gameplay has proven very successful over the years. GW2's future success or lack thereof will be a referendum on the viability of that style of play. If GW2 can retain a million active players and continue to grow substantially over the years, perhaps it's time that MMO designers reevalutated their approach to designing content. I sit clearly on the camp that says that the "skinner box" gameplay as it's called, has a relevant place in the MMO industry and in games as a whole.
I for one happen to agree with the OP.
Something that occurred to me recently about this reference.
It's wrong. The context is wrong. The accepted cliche about carrot on a stick is that you have a reward that you can never achieve though you persue it indefinitely. WoW and it's style of ThemeParks are not actually like this. You do, in fact, get the carrot. While there is a carrot beyond that one, you an still get it, and the next and the next. Eventually, you can get the last carrot, there are people who have attained BiS. It's not "on a stick" never to be attained. There are players who either cannot or do not wish to commit to attaining it, but it's attainable.
I will argue that GW2, is the game that is on a stick. There is the illusuion of progressing. at 1st it grabs you, Initial fun factor is off the charts, but is quickly subsides as I find myself in an unchanging rotation of activities. Sure the mobs change, the background changes, the levels change, but what I do does not.....EVER. Players are simply not allowed to achieve anything that separates them from anyone else. ANet has even stepped in recently to control the economy. Your gear is controlled by ANet (Except for how it looks) you skills and abilities are all controlled, you have some flexibility with traits but really, that's all cookiecutter as much as the next game, As A warrior I am either running signets or banners. There is little flexibility. And yet, the game is designed to look like it's all about options and there really arent any. You can hide the rails, but it doesn't mean they arne't there. So, you take a quest hub and scatter across the zone and have quests auto pop. There is little difference. ANd DE's What are they? Just self triggering versions of escorts or variations on tha ttheme? Not all are, but enough where it's obvious. That's the illusion. There is nothing different but that you don't ahve as many clicks to go through. And in any other game, travelling through breadcrumbs is no worse than aimless wandering.
Looking at that huge list of what to do at 80 and knowing what I know now as opposed to when that list was posted.....As long as it is, many items on it are simply ridiculous. So many of those are overlapping, grindy, silly or can be done in any other MMO ever made. In other words....Good luck with that.
Longevity in MMO stems from two things: social bonds and character investment. While GW2 is strong in a few traits, it is lacking greatly in these two things.
Social bonds form when not only is grouping required, but reputation matters (i.e. not just grouping with any warm body, but actually knowing the people you're grouping with and knowing they aren't terrible at computer games).
Character investment is formed, in part, over time. No feeling of investment in character when you've hit level cap and have top gear in less than 2 weeks.
And it's fine though, because GW2 wasn't created for people who seek these two traits from games.
I fully agree- I think you summed up what I have failed to say in so many words.
I'll add why I think GW2 has enough content to make me busy for at least a year:
- 8 Challenging dungeons with 32 different experiences
- over 1000 dynamic events. Arenanet stated they will be secretly adding new events to all zones
- legendary weapons - they require a lot of effort and those who want to get prestige weapon skins with special effects has lots of work to do
- exploration - tons of secret jumping puzzles
- WvW - lots of fun, two week long matches, epic battles. This feature alone has tons of replayability.
- sPvP - very adicting, almost DotA/League of Legends addicting, I can see myself spending lots of time here.
- Non-linear story. To see all branches of one race story you need to create at least 20 characters of the same race. Multiply that by 5 races and you get tons of replayability
- By the end of this content new expansions will come, each adding 1 year worth of content
Alright I'll counter this with one statement.
Other games HAVE all this and it doesn't keep people's attention.
Yeah, the names change but other games have many of those options. Heck, maybe some people do this but a lot of your 'content' based argument would work in any game. Opinion based portions of it work the same for others in other games. I'll explore Hello Kitty Online all day long, same experience as GW2 no matter if its different in terms of the game and how it looks like.
You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.
How would one make a reason to do something?
Attaching a reward or making skill viable.
In other words (to bring up the carrot on the a stick analogy someone put so well) GW2 is asking you to run the treadmill without even a carrot for a reward.
No reason to even "practice" become a great healer so that folks will request me to group with since everyone can do everything (no interdependance)- No reason to be a great crafter or play the "economic game" and corner the market.
Basically, just quest for the hell of it. Never really get "better", never "stand out", never be "unique" in any viable way. Just play the game to play the game- Thats all fine and good but does not produce longevity nor a reason to play.
Again, no sub means GW2 doesnt need longevity but we need to be honest here in discussing its merits and flaws. many are being sold a bill of goods (and buying this game) under false assumptions as to what they are really getting. This is NOT a full fledged MMO which was designed to play for years. This was a casual (but fun) game which was meant to give a good ride to the end and then slowly level off. Yes, there are things to do at 80 (for those who keep playing) but they are not really worthwhile (from what I can see at present) and they expect (and probably want) people to "go away" at that point- Until they have you buy another Xpac to continue the ride.
They made their money- This isnt about success or not- But about a game mechanic that truly discourages anyu endgame so they have less strai8n on servers and can "sell" any progression via Xpac only.
You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.
How would one make a reason to do something?
fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.
So, you guys (You in general, not specific) biotch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are biottching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all aobut fun? Or should I say "not a grind"
Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.
You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.
How would one make a reason to do something?
fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.
So, you guys (You in general, not specific) biotch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are biottching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all aobut fun? Or should I say "not a grind"
Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.
I don't understand here I haven't mentioned anything about grind. If people are so worried about the cosmetic grind in GW2, learn to not think about the grind and have fun with the game especially WvW, here's a protip not to insult anyone, be balanced getting on GW2 and not play all day erraday, you'll get burnt out fast. I don't even mind the grind idk what people are so upset about, people loved the grind in SWG pre-cu, everyone loved it. Treat a game like a game, you can be competitive if you want but don't treat it like a second job, I'm not saying to go casual either I'm saying to be balanced.
Looking at: The Repopulation Preordering: None Playing: Random Games
Longevity in MMO stems from two things: social bonds and character investment. While GW2 is strong in a few traits, it is lacking greatly in these two things.
Social bonds form when not only is grouping required, but reputation matters (i.e. not just grouping with any warm body, but actually knowing the people you're grouping with and knowing they aren't terrible in either attitude or at computer games).
Character investment is formed, in part, over time. No feeling of investment in character when you've hit level cap and have top gear in less than 2 weeks.
And it's fine though, because GW2 wasn't created for people who seek these two traits from games.
Social bonds form when you are having fun together.
I've to do loads of stuff with fellow co-workers and that doesn't mean I form any social bonds with them. Raid guilds melting are a dime a dozen, dispite all the awesome group requirement and reputation.
Second, GW2 isn't only a MMORPG, it is a video game, and video games staying power is based on gameplay.
Yeah, GW2 isn't a way of life or an alternative world, it is a massive multiplayer online video game.
And video games can also be played for years,
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.
How would one make a reason to do something?
fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.
So, you guys (You in general, not specific) biotch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are biottching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all aobut fun? Or should I say "not a grind"
Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.
For me, its because theres no part of that list i have to do.
I don't consider WvWvW a grind, thats fun.. some may not like it... don't do it, theres no need..
In WoW (as an example), if they want me to go collect 10k bear asses so i can get exalted with the crazy donkies faction to get enough tokens ao that i get my next sword of uberness, so that i can progress my character, well guess what? I have to go get 10k bear asses.
Maybe some think collecting bear asses is fun, more power to them. To me, thats a grind.
If however, you consider every aspect of an MMO a grind, and no part of it is fun, why play, why grind all those tokens? Just to say you got a sword of uberness, so you can progress to the sword of extra uberness?
So, you guys (You in general, not specific) bitch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are bitching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all about fun? Or should I say "not a grind"
Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.
On a personal note, I generally expected grind in any game, including GW2.
I think the only reason why it doesn't bother me in GW2 as much as WoWs did is because:
WoW's sub fee. This is just me, but whenever I pay a sub for something, I feel compelled, even if I REALLY don't want to, to play to justify that money. This means I cannot be leisurely about my gameplay because every moment I spend not doing something to justify that payment feels like a waste. The drawback is that everything starts feeling like a grind because I keep trying to do stuff to justify the payment.
Once again, just me, but raiding felt like the only part of the game that was worth doing, because everything else seemed to be designed to funnel you towards raiding. Gathering and Crafting Professions? Might as well just buy your crap off the auction house, because only the raiding stuff is worth anything, and even then the BOE drops might be better in every aspect. Leveling? Levels 1 - whatever is the cap is just a giant tutorial, only max level counts apparently. PVP? It is it's own thing, which isn't a bad thing, but good luck using that gear in Raiding.
Maybe it's just a mentality thing, but since I don't feel compelled to do something as a result of a sub fee, GW2 just seems to appeal to me better.
So, you guys (You in general, not specific) biotch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are biottching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all aobut fun? Or should I say "not a grind"
Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.
If however, you consider every aspect of an MMO a grind, and no part of it is fun, why play, why grind all those tokens? Just to say you got a sword of uberness, so you can progress to the sword of extra uberness?
that's enough right there. I don't understand people sometimes. I agree.
Looking at: The Repopulation Preordering: None Playing: Random Games
I'm already incredibly bored by the game. I barely play 30 minutes a day, when I play. PVE got me going for a while but it gets repetitive fast. Lack of modes for organized pvp really bunches my short.
The game is good but meh. I guess I'm getting old.
You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.
How would one make a reason to do something?
fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.
So, you guys (You in general, not specific) biotch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are biottching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all aobut fun? Or should I say "not a grind"
Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.
For me, its because theres no part of that list i have to do.
I don't consider WvWvW a grind, thats fun.. some may not like it... don;t so it.
In WoW (as an example), if they want me to go collect 10k bear asses so i can get exalted with the crazy donkies faction to get enough tokens to get my next sword of uberness, so that i can progress my character, well guess what? I have to get get 10k bear asses.
Maybe some think collecting bear asses is fun, more power to them.
If however, you consider every aspect of an MMO a grind, and no part of it is fun, why play, why grind all those tokens? Just to say you got a sword of uberness, so you can progress to the sword of extra uberness?
I see what you are saying but RPGs have always been about progression- You work for that sword of uburness so you can kill stronger things and attain better swords of uburness. Without progression you have an action game where everyone is the same. UT2K is as much an RPG at this point (and it IS online)-
WOW quests (and quests in general) suck. They are copy/pastse of kill 10 Woozles and collect 5 Gizmos rinse/repeat. This is why many (myself included) like dynamic sandbox worlds to play in-
But absent of sandbox qualities, an RPG still needs progression or it osnt really an RPG. And Endgame is important for longevity absent of sandbox activities.
You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.
How would one make a reason to do something?
fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.
So, you guys (You in general, not specific) biotch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are biottching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all aobut fun? Or should I say "not a grind"
Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.
For me, its because theres no part of that list i have to do.
I don't consider WvWvW a grind, thats fun.. some may not like it... don't do it, theres no need..
In WoW (as an example), if they want me to go collect 10k bear asses so i can get exalted with the crazy donkies faction to get enough tokens ao that i get my next sword of uberness, so that i can progress my character, well guess what? I have to go get 10k bear asses.
Maybe some think collecting bear asses is fun, more power to them.
If however, you consider every aspect of an MMO a grind, and no part of it is fun, why play, why grind all those tokens? Just to say you got a sword of uberness, so you can progress to the sword of extra uberness?
^ it's what first drew me to GW1 and why i like GW2 so much.. yes there is a grind for certain gear but has always been an optional grind.. you grind it out to look badass not to roflstomp lowbies left and right. I prefer this sort of grind way more than a grind like wow or rift as where if i don't do it for a long period of time and come back I'm now so far behind I'm next to useless against(pvp) or with(raids) people who have been grinding for months/years.. for me I can come back to GW2 anytime and enjoy the game and not worry about people stomping all over me or not wanting me in a group just because i haven't been grinding out gear for the past year..
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
So, you guys (You in general, not specific) bitch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are bitching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all about fun? Or should I say "not a grind"
Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.
On a personal note, I generally expected grind in any game, including GW2.
I think the only reason why it doesn't bother me in GW2 as much as WoWs did is because:
WoW's sub fee. This is just me, but whenever I pay a sub for something, I feel compelled, even if I REALLY don't want to, to play to justify that money. This means I cannot be leisurely about my gameplay because every moment I spend not doing something to justify that payment feels like a waste. The drawback is that everything starts feeling like a grind because I keep trying to do stuff to justify the payment.
Once again, just me, but raiding felt like the only part of the game that was worth doing, because everything else seemed to be designed to funnel you towards raiding. Gathering and Crafting Professions? Might as well just buy your crap off the auction house, because only the raiding stuff is worth anything, and even then the BOE drops might be better in every aspect. Leveling? Levels 1 - whatever is the cap is just a giant tutorial, only max level counts apparently. PVP? It is it's own thing, which isn't a bad thing, but good luck using that gear in Raiding.
Maybe it's just a mentality thing, but since I don't feel compelled to do something as a result of a sub fee, GW2 just seems to appeal to me better.
I hope this answers your question to some degree.
I can understand what you mean. When you are paying a sub you tend to see the grind as something you are paying for. That and WoW is all about raiding, with very little to do outside of it.
The thing that annoys me about GW2 players is they will attack someone who states anything negative about the game, spouting "We don't need grindy raids/faction rep/etc because grind sucks and isn't fun" only to suggest grindy activities in GW2 as a counter... And I think that's what Geezer is getting at too.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Comments
And longetivity matters when there's no subscription?
Not IMO.
90% of GW2 players I know personally or have met online actually do other things. Like other games, other hobbies. You think I'm going to sit playing GW2 when there's a football or hockey (DAMN YOU LOCKOUT WTFISTHISSHITAGAIN AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH) on?
Hell no.
It's also getting pretty tiring hearing about so many little things under the title of "EPIC FAIL" I seen so many hate posts that just want to take a poke at GW2. I'm surprised I haven't been reading "Too Much Butter, another Anet EPIC FAIL" threads. So remember that the frustrations are on both sides of the fence.
As for the zerg thing in WvW, I've never understood it. How do you not have a zerg when there is 100 people vs?
Longevity in MMO stems from two things: social bonds and character investment. While GW2 is strong in a few traits, it is lacking greatly in these two things.
Social bonds form when not only is grouping required, but reputation matters (i.e. not just grouping with any warm body, but actually knowing the people you're grouping with and knowing they aren't terrible in either attitude or at computer games).
Character investment is formed, in part, over time. No feeling of investment in character when you've hit level cap and have top gear in less than 2 weeks.
And it's fine though, because GW2 wasn't created for people who seek these two traits from games.
Look at DAOC for that answer-
Thre will always be some "zergishness" (is that a word- lol) to mass combat- But having specialized classes required far more complex strategy (and less Zerg) while mass combat ensued. In GW2 its so far just spamming buttons with everyone else and the largest group with the fastest spamming skills wins.
I for one happen to agree with the OP.
Something that occurred to me recently about this reference.
It's wrong. The context is wrong. The accepted cliche about carrot on a stick is that you have a reward that you can never achieve though you persue it indefinitely. WoW and it's style of ThemeParks are not actually like this. You do, in fact, get the carrot. While there is a carrot beyond that one, you an still get it, and the next and the next. Eventually, you can get the last carrot, there are people who have attained BiS. It's not "on a stick" never to be attained. There are players who either cannot or do not wish to commit to attaining it, but it's attainable.
I will argue that GW2, is the game that is on a stick. There is the illusuion of progressing. at 1st it grabs you, Initial fun factor is off the charts, but is quickly subsides as I find myself in an unchanging rotation of activities. Sure the mobs change, the background changes, the levels change, but what I do does not.....EVER. Players are simply not allowed to achieve anything that separates them from anyone else. ANet has even stepped in recently to control the economy. Your gear is controlled by ANet (Except for how it looks) you skills and abilities are all controlled, you have some flexibility with traits but really, that's all cookiecutter as much as the next game, As A warrior I am either running signets or banners. There is little flexibility. And yet, the game is designed to look like it's all about options and there really arent any. You can hide the rails, but it doesn't mean they arne't there. So, you take a quest hub and scatter across the zone and have quests auto pop. There is little difference. ANd DE's What are they? Just self triggering versions of escorts or variations on tha ttheme? Not all are, but enough where it's obvious. That's the illusion. There is nothing different but that you don't ahve as many clicks to go through. And in any other game, travelling through breadcrumbs is no worse than aimless wandering.
Looking at that huge list of what to do at 80 and knowing what I know now as opposed to when that list was posted.....As long as it is, many items on it are simply ridiculous. So many of those are overlapping, grindy, silly or can be done in any other MMO ever made. In other words....Good luck with that.
I fully agree- I think you summed up what I have failed to say in so many words.
As soon as I run out of fun things to do in this game, I'll be back to agree with the OP.
See you in six or seven years!
Re: SWTOR
"Remember, remember - Kakk says 'December.'"
Again, this an assumption you are making after 3 weeks. You said you have enough conytent for 6-7 years after playing for three weeks.
Who is misguided? Who is jumping the gun?
I take it you like the game but we are trying to have an honest discussion. I almost wish there WAS a sub now so this wouldnt just be all "talk"
(in other words it really easy to say you would buy a sub for something when there is no sub to buy)
I think people are missing the general point.
You will not run out of things to do. You will run out of reasons to do them.
How would one make a reason to do something?
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fun is reasons? should be singular...reason....that is reason enough to do them IMO.
Looking at: The Repopulation
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Alright I'll counter this with one statement.
Other games HAVE all this and it doesn't keep people's attention.
Yeah, the names change but other games have many of those options. Heck, maybe some people do this but a lot of your 'content' based argument would work in any game. Opinion based portions of it work the same for others in other games. I'll explore Hello Kitty Online all day long, same experience as GW2 no matter if its different in terms of the game and how it looks like.
Attaching a reward or making skill viable.
In other words (to bring up the carrot on the a stick analogy someone put so well) GW2 is asking you to run the treadmill without even a carrot for a reward.
No reason to even "practice" become a great healer so that folks will request me to group with since everyone can do everything (no interdependance)- No reason to be a great crafter or play the "economic game" and corner the market.
Basically, just quest for the hell of it. Never really get "better", never "stand out", never be "unique" in any viable way. Just play the game to play the game- Thats all fine and good but does not produce longevity nor a reason to play.
Again, no sub means GW2 doesnt need longevity but we need to be honest here in discussing its merits and flaws. many are being sold a bill of goods (and buying this game) under false assumptions as to what they are really getting. This is NOT a full fledged MMO which was designed to play for years. This was a casual (but fun) game which was meant to give a good ride to the end and then slowly level off. Yes, there are things to do at 80 (for those who keep playing) but they are not really worthwhile (from what I can see at present) and they expect (and probably want) people to "go away" at that point- Until they have you buy another Xpac to continue the ride.
They made their money- This isnt about success or not- But about a game mechanic that truly discourages anyu endgame so they have less strai8n on servers and can "sell" any progression via Xpac only.
So, you guys (You in general, not specific) biotch about the WoW "carrot on a stick" because it's too grindy, People are biottching because MoP now has what appears to be more dailys associated with a rep grind. For the past year or so, everyone is saying that GW2 gets rid of the grind it's all about "fun". Someone post a huge list of things to do at 80 that is nothing BUT grind but that's ok because this grind is in GW2 and the reason to do this grind is for "fun"? How is that list all aobut fun? Or should I say "not a grind"
Wanna run this by me again? I seem to be missing something here.
I don't understand here I haven't mentioned anything about grind. If people are so worried about the cosmetic grind in GW2, learn to not think about the grind and have fun with the game especially WvW, here's a protip not to insult anyone, be balanced getting on GW2 and not play all day erraday, you'll get burnt out fast. I don't even mind the grind idk what people are so upset about, people loved the grind in SWG pre-cu, everyone loved it. Treat a game like a game, you can be competitive if you want but don't treat it like a second job, I'm not saying to go casual either I'm saying to be balanced.
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^ Gets no soup!!
Social bonds form when you are having fun together.
I've to do loads of stuff with fellow co-workers and that doesn't mean I form any social bonds with them. Raid guilds melting are a dime a dozen, dispite all the awesome group requirement and reputation.
Second, GW2 isn't only a MMORPG, it is a video game, and video games staying power is based on gameplay.
Yeah, GW2 isn't a way of life or an alternative world, it is a massive multiplayer online video game.
And video games can also be played for years,
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
For me, its because theres no part of that list i have to do.
I don't consider WvWvW a grind, thats fun.. some may not like it... don't do it, theres no need..
In WoW (as an example), if they want me to go collect 10k bear asses so i can get exalted with the crazy donkies faction to get enough tokens ao that i get my next sword of uberness, so that i can progress my character, well guess what? I have to go get 10k bear asses.
Maybe some think collecting bear asses is fun, more power to them. To me, thats a grind.
If however, you consider every aspect of an MMO a grind, and no part of it is fun, why play, why grind all those tokens? Just to say you got a sword of uberness, so you can progress to the sword of extra uberness?
On a personal note, I generally expected grind in any game, including GW2.
I think the only reason why it doesn't bother me in GW2 as much as WoWs did is because:
that's enough right there. I don't understand people sometimes. I agree.
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I'm already incredibly bored by the game. I barely play 30 minutes a day, when I play. PVE got me going for a while but it gets repetitive fast. Lack of modes for organized pvp really bunches my short.
The game is good but meh. I guess I'm getting old.
I see what you are saying but RPGs have always been about progression- You work for that sword of uburness so you can kill stronger things and attain better swords of uburness. Without progression you have an action game where everyone is the same. UT2K is as much an RPG at this point (and it IS online)-
WOW quests (and quests in general) suck. They are copy/pastse of kill 10 Woozles and collect 5 Gizmos rinse/repeat. This is why many (myself included) like dynamic sandbox worlds to play in-
But absent of sandbox qualities, an RPG still needs progression or it osnt really an RPG. And Endgame is important for longevity absent of sandbox activities.
^ it's what first drew me to GW1 and why i like GW2 so much.. yes there is a grind for certain gear but has always been an optional grind.. you grind it out to look badass not to roflstomp lowbies left and right. I prefer this sort of grind way more than a grind like wow or rift as where if i don't do it for a long period of time and come back I'm now so far behind I'm next to useless against(pvp) or with(raids) people who have been grinding for months/years.. for me I can come back to GW2 anytime and enjoy the game and not worry about people stomping all over me or not wanting me in a group just because i haven't been grinding out gear for the past year..
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I can understand what you mean. When you are paying a sub you tend to see the grind as something you are paying for. That and WoW is all about raiding, with very little to do outside of it.
The thing that annoys me about GW2 players is they will attack someone who states anything negative about the game, spouting "We don't need grindy raids/faction rep/etc because grind sucks and isn't fun" only to suggest grindy activities in GW2 as a counter... And I think that's what Geezer is getting at too.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"