so if you want to take the focus off of levelling and make it long term wouldnt the best course of action be to split it up and make it less visible. Thats what i liked about eq's faction system. you could just work on it, no numbers to crunch. Leave the number crunching to equipment, and leave it out of levelling. You might find you have more of a "just play" experience.
as far as the death penalty is concerned i like the deity model where you generally lose favor with them by dying , since they have to resurect you, and since its a sliding scale, the less favor you have with them, the less access you have to the skills and abilities you receive from them, which might inclide item protections, cheap resurections, combat abilities.
its dynamic, makes sense in the gameplay and provides a decent deturrent for dying. Since it is a scale you can constantly work on, a singe death or even multiple deaths may not necessarily have an immediet impact. There would be times though when you just gained a title and could lose it temporarily.
I like EQ's faction as well, and would be happy if leveling was a sort of faction thing. I need a certian amount of faction with the rangers guild before I advance as a ranger, sounds okay to me. Make it so the class/race/diety are important to leveling sounds fun as well.
I think a death penalty is an important aspect though. It needs to be harsh enough that there is a real risk/reward type issue with doing things. I guess my biggest gripe with EQs death penalty was the run back to my corpse and not really the xp lose. The xp lose was a pain, but the recovery could be a nightmare.
i think that "exp loss" has a very negative impact on players perceptions so i wouldnt go anywhere near that. I liked corpse runs myself, as youve said, was worse.
think about using the deity aspect in this though. The higher your standing with your deity the more interesting features you can access.
if your low rank with your deity you either cant get a corpse retrieval or it costs you something, and as your rank increases with your deity it gets easier, more convienient and accessible. Most cases you could just go back and get it, but there would be those times you wish you had an easy way to make that happen.
But that is just one aspect. Think about if we were playing openworld pvp game and your item protection you had was also linked to your standing with your god. That would be incentive to stay alive right there (pvp deaths would be seen as somewhat glorious, so no or very little penalty there).
and there would be other factors as well, but your class, race and other organizations remain totally unaffected by your deaths because that is completely handled in the deity system where it makes sense, so your losses are limited to a quarter of your overall character, and the vast majority of potential losses you could incur would be based mostly around convienience, but not totally. In essence this could be considered a soft dynamic form of exp loss, but i dont think it would have the negative perception that full exp loss would have since its limited in its scope.
i am really really really hoping for a better system than the previous offerings. I hope that they do not have " levels" or experience in the game.
i would really love a hybrid system like eve online does so you can really pace yourself and not be focused on getting that level. I would also like there to be multiple ways to improve from multiple source. A track for your god, one for your class, one for your race and once for a player chosen organization or three.
like above some skills should be trainable after a certain time ( not time played), others should be findable, some should be required to be crafted and still others you need repeated exposure to the skill to begin learning it.
dont put us on a levelling treadmill. Make the game for a 5 year arc.
i'll just make a guess now and say sony wants more than 400k active players
those eve online comparrisons don't work on mmos.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Originally posted by TsaboHavoc EVE system with 75% time progression and 25% gameplay to keep the kids and the power levelers in a galaxy far far away....
i would of went the opposite. 25% time based and 75% earned.
However...
i would of also split it up into 4 different lines (race/class/deity/other)
meaning each of the 4 would would contribite to 25% over the overall, with each one increasing passively at 6% and earned at 19%.
I would further modify that where you could lose faction in any of those 4 by your actions but you would only lose faction on death in your deity line.
Besides, skill systems like this don't work. Look at UO or Darkfall. People just get the same skills that "work", and everyone turns out the same.
I'd rather have a system like Vanilla or BC WoW, where you have your 9-10 classes, three or four talent trees, and each tree makes you a unique type of character. Also, AA abilities from EQ to further customize your character. Racial abilities with some good utility to further define characters.
Player customization, and diversity among players is more important to me than EQ:N being "Revolutionary". Look at how that turned out for GW2... The game is trash.
SOE has already come out and said EQNext will be a sandbox, hence it CANNOT have classes. I would not hold my breath that SOE can actually make a playable sandbox either.
Besides, skill systems like this don't work. Look at UO or Darkfall. People just get the same skills that "work", and everyone turns out the same.
I'd rather have a system like Vanilla or BC WoW, where you have your 9-10 classes, three or four talent trees, and each tree makes you a unique type of character. Also, AA abilities from EQ to further customize your character. Racial abilities with some good utility to further define characters.
Player customization, and diversity among players is more important to me than EQ:N being "Revolutionary". Look at how that turned out for GW2... The game is trash.
SOE has already come out and said EQNext will be a sandbox, hence it CANNOT have classes. I would not hold my breath that SOE can actually make a playable sandbox either.
Originally posted by Rimmersman EQNext is not going to be a total sandbox game, it will have a class system and you will gain xp to level up. Smed has already said the classes will be more akin to EQ rather than EQ2. EQNext= Hybrid not a total sandbox game.
classes i agree with but i have yet to see anything that would give me the impression that you would be levelling up like in traditional eq.
Smedley said it won't be a skill based system so I think we can safely assume it will be level based. He also said it will have a raiding endgame.
So basically what we know about it so far is that it will have classes, levels, and a gear grind raiding endgame.
What we don't know is in what way (if any) it will be sandboxy.
"I also said in there that it will still be very familiar to you, but what I meant by that statement is that we're changing what an MMO is. MMO means something now, and it means the same thing to everybody because it's the same game. EverQuest, WoW, SWTOR all use the same core loot gameplay, which is kill stuff, get reward, get loot, level up. Very few games have broken out of that mold. One or two have. EVE Online is a great example; it's not standard level-based gameplay, although I'm not saying we're going to a big skill-based system. You're still going to recognize the roleplaying game heritage in it." Smed 2012 SOE Live
what i read there is a heratige=class based system, but i dont read a gear grinding endgame or levels there. I read the opposite.
Levels or no levels.. doesn't matter. What matters is the gameplay that is involved in order to progress. Levels always exist whether there is a marker for them or not.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Besides, skill systems like this don't work. Look at UO or Darkfall. People just get the same skills that "work", and everyone turns out the same.
I'd rather have a system like Vanilla or BC WoW, where you have your 9-10 classes, three or four talent trees, and each tree makes you a unique type of character. Also, AA abilities from EQ to further customize your character. Racial abilities with some good utility to further define characters.
Player customization, and diversity among players is more important to me than EQ:N being "Revolutionary". Look at how that turned out for GW2... The game is trash.
SWG skill system was amazing. Everquest Next is going to be revolutionary compared to the previous offering, for one it's going to be a sandbox not a themepark and also it's not going to be heavily loot based. Yes lets have a system like wow the same bloody system we've all been playing for the last 9 bloody years.
Originally posted by Rimmersman EQNext is not going to be a total sandbox game, it will have a class system and you will gain xp to level up. Smed has already said the classes will be more akin to EQ rather than EQ2. EQNext= Hybrid not a total sandbox game.
Yeah I think Smed is just throwing the sandbox term around because it is a hot word right now..... SOE made a sandbox game many years ago (SWG) and they destroyed it with theme park elements and never went back....He's trying to drum up hype for the game and he knows that sandbox is a word that has been thrown around alot lately.....
i am really really really hoping for a better system than the previous offerings. I hope that they do not have " levels" or experience in the game.
i would really love a hybrid system like eve online does so you can really pace yourself and not be focused on getting that level. I would also like there to be multiple ways to improve from multiple source. A track for your god, one for your class, one for your race and once for a player chosen organization or three.
like above some skills should be trainable after a certain time ( not time played), others should be findable, some should be required to be crafted and still others you need repeated exposure to the skill to begin learning it.
dont put us on a levelling treadmill. Make the game for a 5 year arc.
Yeah I don't want another Eve. I like the specialized class systems and level based games, if done correctly.
Originally posted by Dulu ...skill systems like this don't work. Look at UO or Darkfall. People just get the same skills that "work", and everyone turns out the same.
I agree with Dulu, and think diversity and interdependence are required to build community. However, o.p., I share your desire to innovate. Loved how Eve let you xp offline. Perhaps when logging off EQN, the player can select skill(s) to work on while offline. So you get a modest amount of practice in those skills over time.
Just had an idea about AI controlling your character when you are offline, but that's too big a topic to cover here, I think.
Originally posted by rungard ...as far as the death penalty is concerned i like the deity model where you generally lose favor with them by dying , since they have to resurect you, and since its a sliding scale, the less favor you have with them, the less access you have to the skills and abilities you receive from them, which might inclide item protections, cheap resurections, combat abilities...
Great, and might I add, Fresh, idea!
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I like your ideas and I too hope the pantheon has a big part in EQN's Norrath both from a world story aspect and a character progression standpoint. Although I like the idea of free form character creation/development I can't help but think there will also be standard classes so it's familiar with EQ. Maybe that and a free form allocation system is possible. Dave did mention that there would be multi-classing in EQN so maybe the depth of progression will be leveling every class with the same character. Possibly cross over abilities like Swtor's legacy system or FF14?
I love the idea that death could lose favor with your god and therefor lessen your abilities. Not on a timer to afk then off but actually build favor back by tasks. That is immersive IMO.
I like many forms of progression at the same time culminating to a players total abilities. It adds a great amount of depth and specialization.
Yes about offline AI! I was taking to my cousin about setting parameters such as goods to sell and items you need being converted to quests for others to take. I'd set how much I would pay or trade and adventures that happened upon me would decide if it was worth it.
I have no idea how EQN will handle character progression, there is too much room for speculation. However, if it is a basic and fixed vertical class leveling system like most current themeparks, I will be disappointed.
Sure I expect a class system, with xp and all the classic stuff, but I hope they do something much more expansive with plenty of room for customization. The game needs to be balanced, but not so perfectly balanced that everything has to be controlled and over simplified for the sake of balance....some epicness needs to remain.
Originally posted by Dulu ...skill systems like this don't work. Look at UO or Darkfall. People just get the same skills that "work", and everyone turns out the same.
I agree with Dulu, and think diversity and interdependence are required to build community. However, o.p., I share your desire to innovate. Loved how Eve let you xp offline. Perhaps when logging off EQN, the player can select skill(s) to work on while offline. So you get a modest amount of practice in those skills over time.
Just had an idea about AI controlling your character when you are offline, but that's too big a topic to cover here, I think.
Originally posted by rungard ...as far as the death penalty is concerned i like the deity model where you generally lose favor with them by dying , since they have to resurect you, and since its a sliding scale, the less favor you have with them, the less access you have to the skills and abilities you receive from them, which might inclide item protections, cheap resurections, combat abilities...
SWG skill system was amazing. Everquest Next is going to be revolutionary compared to the previous offering, for one it's going to be a sandbox not a themepark and also it's not going to be heavily loot based. Yes lets have a system like wow the same bloody system we've all been playing for the last 9 bloody years.
Agreed... SWG (Pre-CU/NGE) is my suggestion as well. Of course, polish it and minor adjustments, then we'll have the level up system that will make other games look pale in comparison.
Originally posted by SavageHorizon Originally posted by ArclanOriginally posted by Dulu...skill systems like this don't work. Look at UO or Darkfall. People just get the same skills that "work", and everyone turns out the same.I agree with Dulu, and think diversity and interdependence are required to build community. However, o.p., I share your desire to innovate. Loved how Eve let you xp offline. Perhaps when logging off EQN, the player can select skill(s) to work on while offline. So you get a modest amount of practice in those skills over time.Just had an idea about AI controlling your character when you are offline, but that's too big a topic to cover here, I think.Originally posted by rungard...as far as the death penalty is concerned i like the deity model where you generally lose favor with them by dying , since they have to resurect you, and since its a sliding scale, the less favor you have with them, the less access you have to the skills and abilities you receive from them, which might inclide item protections, cheap resurections, combat abilities...
Great, and might I add, Fresh, idea!You obviously haven't played Age Of Wulin/Wushu.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by Dulu...skill systems like this don't work. Look at UO or Darkfall. People just get the same skills that "work", and everyone turns out the same.I agree with Dulu, and think diversity and interdependence are required to build community. However, o.p., I share your desire to innovate. Loved how Eve let you xp offline. Perhaps when logging off EQN, the player can select skill(s) to work on while offline. So you get a modest amount of practice in those skills over time.Just had an idea about AI controlling your character when you are offline, but that's too big a topic to cover here, I think.Originally posted by rungard...as far as the death penalty is concerned i like the deity model where you generally lose favor with them by dying , since they have to resurect you, and since its a sliding scale, the less favor you have with them, the less access you have to the skills and abilities you receive from them, which might inclide item protections, cheap resurections, combat abilities...
i am really really really hoping for a better system than the previous offerings. I hope that they do not have " levels" or experience in the game.
i would really love a hybrid system like eve online does so you can really pace yourself and not be focused on getting that level. I would also like there to be multiple ways to improve from multiple source. A track for your god, one for your class, one for your race and once for a player chosen organization or three.
like above some skills should be trainable after a certain time ( not time played), others should be findable, some should be required to be crafted and still others you need repeated exposure to the skill to begin learning it.
dont put us on a levelling treadmill. Make the game for a 5 year arc.
If they announce they are doing what you suggest, I will stop looking at the game and delete all my links to this game from my homepage.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by Dulu ...skill systems like this don't work. Look at UO or Darkfall. People just get the same skills that "work", and everyone turns out the same.
I agree with Dulu, and think diversity and interdependence are required to build community. However, o.p., I share your desire to innovate. Loved how Eve let you xp offline. Perhaps when logging off EQN, the player can select skill(s) to work on while offline. So you get a modest amount of practice in those skills over time.
Just had an idea about AI controlling your character when you are offline, but that's too big a topic to cover here, I think.
Originally posted by rungard ...as far as the death penalty is concerned i like the deity model where you generally lose favor with them by dying , since they have to resurect you, and since its a sliding scale, the less favor you have with them, the less access you have to the skills and abilities you receive from them, which might inclide item protections, cheap resurections, combat abilities...
Ya, the offline thing is neat except for the kidnapping, which was a horrible idea. Its way too easy, and any time you're offline for more then a few hours, its almost guaranteed you're kidnapped when you log back in.
Agree with Dulu and Savage, did not enjoy games where you "build your character", because I feel like they just did not allow for enough diversity. Darkfall was a perfect (horrible) example, especially without skill caps. Like I've said before, if there was a way for you to develop a character so that the end result was an EQ class, and then you could potentially build everything in between, I'd be all for it. Otherwise, everyone will be one of a couple hybrids that work out to be the most OP, and everything else will be neglected.
Also, time based leveling sucks. Sole reason I never played Eve, one of main reasons I did not like Wushu. Character progression just feels crap, nothing to work for, just waiting... I don't mind if time is part of the equation, but adventuring/ fighting etc should always be the primary way to level your character.
Simple. Copy SWG. They already have the code. While they are at it, copy SWG resource/crafting/housing as well.
You can have your EQ classes like Warrior or Paladin/SK or Bard. But then put in a ton of skills that different archetypes can take, then put in skill point system like SWG. That way you can build a tank warrior or a DPS warrior, or get real different and make a heavy armor tank cleric.
So there are unique abilities for certain class/deity combos then a massive general pool of skills where you can cherry pick what you want to add on.
Comments
so if you want to take the focus off of levelling and make it long term wouldnt the best course of action be to split it up and make it less visible. Thats what i liked about eq's faction system. you could just work on it, no numbers to crunch. Leave the number crunching to equipment, and leave it out of levelling. You might find you have more of a "just play" experience.
as far as the death penalty is concerned i like the deity model where you generally lose favor with them by dying , since they have to resurect you, and since its a sliding scale, the less favor you have with them, the less access you have to the skills and abilities you receive from them, which might inclide item protections, cheap resurections, combat abilities.
its dynamic, makes sense in the gameplay and provides a decent deturrent for dying. Since it is a scale you can constantly work on, a singe death or even multiple deaths may not necessarily have an immediet impact. There would be times though when you just gained a title and could lose it temporarily.
I like EQ's faction as well, and would be happy if leveling was a sort of faction thing. I need a certian amount of faction with the rangers guild before I advance as a ranger, sounds okay to me. Make it so the class/race/diety are important to leveling sounds fun as well.
I think a death penalty is an important aspect though. It needs to be harsh enough that there is a real risk/reward type issue with doing things. I guess my biggest gripe with EQs death penalty was the run back to my corpse and not really the xp lose. The xp lose was a pain, but the recovery could be a nightmare.
i think that "exp loss" has a very negative impact on players perceptions so i wouldnt go anywhere near that. I liked corpse runs myself, as youve said, was worse.
think about using the deity aspect in this though. The higher your standing with your deity the more interesting features you can access.
if your low rank with your deity you either cant get a corpse retrieval or it costs you something, and as your rank increases with your deity it gets easier, more convienient and accessible. Most cases you could just go back and get it, but there would be those times you wish you had an easy way to make that happen.
But that is just one aspect. Think about if we were playing openworld pvp game and your item protection you had was also linked to your standing with your god. That would be incentive to stay alive right there (pvp deaths would be seen as somewhat glorious, so no or very little penalty there).
and there would be other factors as well, but your class, race and other organizations remain totally unaffected by your deaths because that is completely handled in the deity system where it makes sense, so your losses are limited to a quarter of your overall character, and the vast majority of potential losses you could incur would be based mostly around convienience, but not totally. In essence this could be considered a soft dynamic form of exp loss, but i dont think it would have the negative perception that full exp loss would have since its limited in its scope.
i'll just make a guess now and say sony wants more than 400k active players
those eve online comparrisons don't work on mmos.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
i would of went the opposite. 25% time based and 75% earned.
However...
i would of also split it up into 4 different lines (race/class/deity/other)
meaning each of the 4 would would contribite to 25% over the overall, with each one increasing passively at 6% and earned at 19%.
I would further modify that where you could lose faction in any of those 4 by your actions but you would only lose faction on death in your deity line.
Killing dragons is my shit
SOE has already come out and said EQNext will be a sandbox, hence it CANNOT have classes. I would not hold my breath that SOE can actually make a playable sandbox either.
why cant it have classes?
I agree.
SWG skill system was amazing. Everquest Next is going to be revolutionary compared to the previous offering, for one it's going to be a sandbox not a themepark and also it's not going to be heavily loot based. Yes lets have a system like wow the same bloody system we've all been playing for the last 9 bloody years.
Yeah I think Smed is just throwing the sandbox term around because it is a hot word right now..... SOE made a sandbox game many years ago (SWG) and they destroyed it with theme park elements and never went back....He's trying to drum up hype for the game and he knows that sandbox is a word that has been thrown around alot lately.....
Yeah I don't want another Eve. I like the specialized class systems and level based games, if done correctly.
I agree with Dulu, and think diversity and interdependence are required to build community. However, o.p., I share your desire to innovate. Loved how Eve let you xp offline. Perhaps when logging off EQN, the player can select skill(s) to work on while offline. So you get a modest amount of practice in those skills over time.
Just had an idea about AI controlling your character when you are offline, but that's too big a topic to cover here, I think.
Great, and might I add, Fresh, idea!
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I like your ideas and I too hope the pantheon has a big part in EQN's Norrath both from a world story aspect and a character progression standpoint. Although I like the idea of free form character creation/development I can't help but think there will also be standard classes so it's familiar with EQ. Maybe that and a free form allocation system is possible. Dave did mention that there would be multi-classing in EQN so maybe the depth of progression will be leveling every class with the same character. Possibly cross over abilities like Swtor's legacy system or FF14?
I love the idea that death could lose favor with your god and therefor lessen your abilities. Not on a timer to afk then off but actually build favor back by tasks. That is immersive IMO.
I like many forms of progression at the same time culminating to a players total abilities. It adds a great amount of depth and specialization.
Yes about offline AI! I was taking to my cousin about setting parameters such as goods to sell and items you need being converted to quests for others to take. I'd set how much I would pay or trade and adventures that happened upon me would decide if it was worth it.
I agree though, diffrerent thread lol
I have no idea how EQN will handle character progression, there is too much room for speculation. However, if it is a basic and fixed vertical class leveling system like most current themeparks, I will be disappointed.
Sure I expect a class system, with xp and all the classic stuff, but I hope they do something much more expansive with plenty of room for customization. The game needs to be balanced, but not so perfectly balanced that everything has to be controlled and over simplified for the sake of balance....some epicness needs to remain.
You obviously haven't played Age Of Wulin/Wushu.
http://en.wulin.gpotato.eu/GameGuide/Handbook/Offline-System
Agreed... SWG (Pre-CU/NGE) is my suggestion as well. Of course, polish it and minor adjustments, then we'll have the level up system that will make other games look pale in comparison.
You obviously haven't played Age Of Wulin/Wushu.
http://en.wulin.gpotato.eu/GameGuide/Handbook/Offline-System
Very cool, thanks for sharing that!
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
NP, kidnapping an offline player http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOeAfeRXe3g
If they announce they are doing what you suggest, I will stop looking at the game and delete all my links to this game from my homepage.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Ya, the offline thing is neat except for the kidnapping, which was a horrible idea. Its way too easy, and any time you're offline for more then a few hours, its almost guaranteed you're kidnapped when you log back in.
Agree with Dulu and Savage, did not enjoy games where you "build your character", because I feel like they just did not allow for enough diversity. Darkfall was a perfect (horrible) example, especially without skill caps. Like I've said before, if there was a way for you to develop a character so that the end result was an EQ class, and then you could potentially build everything in between, I'd be all for it. Otherwise, everyone will be one of a couple hybrids that work out to be the most OP, and everything else will be neglected.
Also, time based leveling sucks. Sole reason I never played Eve, one of main reasons I did not like Wushu. Character progression just feels crap, nothing to work for, just waiting... I don't mind if time is part of the equation, but adventuring/ fighting etc should always be the primary way to level your character.
Simple. Copy SWG. They already have the code. While they are at it, copy SWG resource/crafting/housing as well.
You can have your EQ classes like Warrior or Paladin/SK or Bard. But then put in a ton of skills that different archetypes can take, then put in skill point system like SWG. That way you can build a tank warrior or a DPS warrior, or get real different and make a heavy armor tank cleric.
So there are unique abilities for certain class/deity combos then a massive general pool of skills where you can cherry pick what you want to add on.