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Why this game will be an EPIC fail
Atrocitus
Member UncommonPosts: 85
First off, I am NOT, repeat, NOT in alpha/beta/whatever...Got it? In NO WAY HAVE I PLAYED THIS GAME YET......
I've seen plenty of videos of the game, listened to the 'devs' speak on the game, and have read plenty about it. Heres why this game will not only tank, but tank bigtime.....
Regardless of how long this 'team' of devs have been working on the game, content will be shallow. Its as simple as work force= gameplay. And they have an extremely small dev team. And we all know how fast gamers fly by content these days. There simply will not be enough to do
Customer service after launch will be relatively non existant. Again, with hardly any funding, how in the hell can they get a sizeable team to deal with the problems in and out of the game? And c'mon people, we all know how the first few weeks of a mmorpg go. People will be crying about tickets not being answered, bugs everywhere, blah blah blah........
The game engine is horribad. Any sizable pvp will end in massive vaporlock. Once again, the almost non existant team won't be able to handle this.
Have you seen the AI in the videos? The mobs just stand there. Period. Its comical.....
I could go on and on, but don't feel like typing any longer. Point of the matter is don't get your hopes up for this game. All signs points to sub par mmo. Once again, I have NOT participated in the game...
Comments
If you refer to the engine being crap as being used in SWTOR, they used a heavily modified 7 year old version where the HE devs have kept telling them not to do it.
Just need to correct a few things:
... On Size Of the Team, or Size of the Budget
While you can generally assume that more manpower = more production, that isn't always the case. In Repop, much of what we do is based on generated content. Once you have a good generation system in place, it allows you to be more efficient in your content creation. Rather than designing 7500 hand designed missions by hand, we focus on designing 500 templates. The templates specify the rules, item types, npc types, etc and each of those can be reused many times and each time the npcs, items, etc will be different. You can a lot things done with less people if you can automate or reuse a lot of it.
For things like artwork, you outsource to external artists or art houses, use licensed models, etc. Those types of things would all be mentions in the credits, but they don't count as team members. Outsourcing is generally far more efficient from a price standpoint than if you do everything in-house.
... On Hero Engine
Your making a judgement on the engine based on how you saw TOR handle PvP or crowds of players. That is not a Hero Engine problem. It's a problem due to a lot of customization on the TOR models. It works fine for the situations the game was designed for most of the time (sparse player population, personal storyline, lot of soloing). It didn't work as well with a large number of players. But those are design decisions. Had TOR had a primary focus on large scale PvP they probably would have gone in a different direction there, maybe sacrificing some customization to get it done.
As a renderer, Hero Engine isn't on par with the likes of Unreal Tech. But it's strength isn't in its renderer. It does a lot more than that.
... On AI
The last video footage was shot on the first day of ALPHA testing. You can't judge a game AI or any of its systems really based on a 2 second splice you saw in an alpha stage video. At that stage of development everything is still very much a work in progress.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
Saying the game will fail because of the size of the workforce is probably one of the most bizarre ones of all, it just means it will take them longer to develope the core game mechanics etc. The OP also seems to have overlooked a rather significant factor that reduces his 'content shortage' argument to the point of being ridiculous, ie. its a sandbox game, and while themepark games thrive on content, sandbox games provide tools instead of, which the players use to create their own, Eve does this, as did SWG before they tried to turn it into a themepark.
Well done OP for watching a few videos and still somehow totally missing the crux of the game. Awesome
Why is it that people who have done the least seem to criticize the most?
Maybe I'm wrong. If so, can you list the games you've released?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
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It is an Indie MMO so it cant be an "Epic Fail". Epic fail is when you take $300,000,000 and make a game that sucks so bad and doesn't even come close to living up to the hype like SWTOR did and like what TESO is going to do. Those games are/will be EPIC Fails.
The Repop will probably just end up a fail.
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How then do you explain A Tale in the Desert? That peaked at 4 paid employees, but the gameplay was hardly shallow.
A small dev team means you can't do massive amounts of hand-crafted anything. That means no AAA graphics, and no enormous amounts of custom themepark content. But neither of those have much to do with whether a game is shallow.
The size of the development team has nothing to do with customer service quality. If only a thousand people play the game, then you don't need a ton of people working in customer service to do a proper job of taking care of all of your customers. And if you have a million people paying to play your game, that's enough revenue to hire an awful lot of customer service people who didn't need to be around during the game's development. In the latter case, there could be some growing pains between when they realize that the game is far more successful than expected and when they actually have the new customer service people in place, but that's only a temporary problem.
Regarding 'size of the team/budget'....
So automating/reusage in quest content can allow for more content? Perhaps, but logic dictates repeating quest types will become boring after the first 30 runs.
Questing, generally speaking, is something that players are tired of, much less repeated quest type. And it can be argued that questing is a very shallow content base. In this day and age, games are moving away from this old method of keeping players busy.
Again, in two weeks time, after players have done the requisite kill and collect quest or whatever, that type of 'content' will not add to this games allure. Same ol' same ol.....I can hear the players crying now..../shrug
So your argument about computer generated questing giving players something to do? Doesn't hold up......There has to be content, A LOT of it to keep players after the initial launch. There simply are not enough workers to contribute to the overall game.
How you deem 'artwork' as content is beyond me.
Regarding Hero Engine.
Lack of customization is absolutely horrible. Players can't stand looking like the guy next to him. The only mmo that did this right was Aion. And lets face it, The Repop is no Aion when it comes to customization, or alot of other things for that matter.
Horrible graphics, zero customization and watching a pvp slideshow will do nothing to help this game.....
Horrid AI? The oft repeated ITS IN ALPHA hurp/durp excuse isn't going to be enough when this game launches. You and I both know there won't be any massive upgrading in that dept before launch. Be honest.......
Customer service? You glossed over that point......Again, a small work force won't be able to handle the complaints and problems after launch.
Your lack of a larger dev team will be mired in bug squishing eternally. If you think your launching with a lack of content, wait until two months down the road when people are wondering where the content updates are, and your still dealing with alpha bugs......
SImply put, this game has too many negatives going against it....../shrug
"You are all going to poop yourselves." BillMurphy
"Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone."
In the last few years of SWG existence, there were a handful of devs working on the game. During that time, they cranked out more content than they had ever given the players. They gave us beast master, new space content, new dungeons, chronicles system, etc...
I won't judge them until I see how they manage their finished project.
Some older sandboxy titles had less than a hundred of different quests, but people played them for years because those games didn't focus on limited, hand-crafted content and quest grind. Since they have a small dev team, just giving people a modern, fun sandbox MMO should be enough. We don't have many of those nowadays, especially in the sci-fi genre.
I'm curious, though:
So you're saying TOR's problems are caused by its character customization and not the rumored old version BW used?
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Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
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Smith:
While im not 100% sold on your product your frequent communication with the community here is inspiring, And your points here do seem realistic and valid.
Atrocitus:
I think your pessimism is abit much here, this game will satisfy its target player base and be profitable in the immediate future.
On your points on questing: Is questing really dying"? i think outside these boards its alive and well. Questing isnt bad along as the Implementation is done correctly.
I have dont have any information on repops implementation so i wont comment.
On the hero engine: You cant base an engines capabilities off one companies poor implementation.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
The devs said that they have already started sketching out the plans for space. It will be open. It won't be in at launch though.
"You are all going to poop yourselves." BillMurphy
"Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone."
i see you never played a sandbox game. in sandbox games the interaction between players is the main content. Oh yeah and creating stuff so again players build the content.
The epic fail comparison is apples and oranges.
Indie games draw on niche players who are more than willing to overlook shortcomings in exchange for a unique gameplay experience not provided by mainstream high budget games.
Kept people in SWG happy for years and those quests were a lot more simple then The Repopulation has to offer.
Yes, people are done with themeparks ... this is not a themepark.
Questing is optional. How you entertain yourself is completely up to you.
Depends on your targeted player base.
It's a sandbox .. they give you tools to create content.
The quests are in for people that do enjoy a quest every now and then, but it's optional.
He wasn't, he was refering to the fact that you can build a game with a small team by outsourcing work and having dedicated volunteers. These volunteers often understand better what gamers want then highly paid developers. Big difference between pay and passion.
I agree it's not Aion, The Repopulation is not aiming to be a shallow game where you can look different.
Dissapointed SWTOR fan? Blame them, not the engine.
There will be no release until it's finished. They have stated that repeatedly.
You should read the monthly updates and marvell at all the new features that are put in.
It's not hyped as the next WoW-killer ... there will not be millions of players at launch and it also doesn't need millions of players at launch to make up for the ridiculous budgets these AAA games burn.
There will be no release until it's finished. They have stated that repeatedly. Due to not being tied to nor controlled by big investors, they are free to decide when it's released.
You summed up a handfull of assumed negatives .. did you bother checking the postives?
Horribad... Guess I can add this word to my dictionary.
On a serious note, speculation leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy. People read this topic thinking the game is bad, thus pass on it.
Staff should not allow these topics, doom speculations based on nothing but unfundamented opinions only cause bad and unneeded publicity for a game.
On Automation...
Our mission, den and engagement generation schemes go far beyond what you've seen in previous generated titles. A mission template for example might contain 30 goals, 4 randomly generated npcs mixed with 3 static, 2 generated items, some steps where random chance takes you into a different outcome, and branching outcomes on multiple parts. Or they can be a simple check with NPC or pick something up and return it. The templates provide you with the storyline, which is what will remain the same. The locations, and everything else is generated though. Some things are repeatable, and others are not. Some form complex chains. All of them can be configured to only happen in a certain place or multiple places. They can be configured to only be given to players who have meet criteria such as having a certain skill at a specific level, other missions completed, reputation, etc. They are tailor made for your character.
So while there is certainly a mix of menial things to keep you occupied that involve menial tasks, there are also also missions thrown into that mix that are quite a bit deeper than in your average mmo. While doing all of these different tasks, your building your characters reputation. Depending on the dialog paths you choose (we use a branching dialog system), how you complete certain goals (some have multple ways of completion), etc. NPCs will form their responses to you. Some options may only be available to players NPCs view as Greedy. Some missions will only become available when NPCs are themselves feeling in a certain mood or facing a certain dilemma. Players can alter an NPCs dilemma, cause and mood through completing missions, which NPCs can talk to other players or NPCs about, even mentioning players by name.
So if your judging a generation system by the SWG or DAoC style generated missions where all you were doing in each generated mission was walking to talk to an NPC or moving to kill a den, then your barking up the wrong tree. Those types of templates do exist as filler to mix up the missions and ensure players always have an endless stream of content. There are also simple tasks for non-combat types such as Diplomacy, Hacking, Medical, and Crafting missions, as well as a filter to allow you to filter out certain types. But they are also wedged in with missions that require you to make decisions that will affect your character long-term, and with epic generated missions which are long and challenging, with substantial rewards for completion. From a gameplay perspective, I don't think your losing anything over the current crop of MMOs there, other than that you may repeat the same stories multple times in your career. The steps you take on those templates though will be different though, and we also require players to figure out a bit more than they do in most other titles at this point. Things like quest markers and arrows to waypoints are a purely optional feature. Some missions provide them, and others make you figure it out. It's all determined by the template.
The content is pretty much neverending. Just depends on how we set up the spawners and events. For example if we mark an area as a Den or engagement region we then attach certain templates to it based on what that area should contain. If it's an engagement area then this can be long chains of things to do. Engagements are similar to Events in GW2 except they tie in a bit more into our other systems so we can tie them into missions, dens, NPCs, etc. If you allow FPR players to start setting up Camps in an OWON controlled area, then the OWON players suddenly start receiving engagements to seek and destroy those camps. FPR players would have their own version of the engagements to help keep building up these areas. Depending on how each of them respond the engagements keep mutating and affecting the other sides. If those FPR camps turn into bases, suddenly you have missions being given from them, and more complex goals.
If you take a look at the Den system, those replace static mobs. They spawn on demand and can be tailored (within parameter ranges) to make them more challenging to higher numbers of players. A den might have three forks it can follow for example. One spawner might have a chance to spawn Lesoo, Okolat or Bandits. Maybe Bandits only sprout up at night but the other two can occur at any time. Each of those could have multiple waves set up of their own spawns, and those rules also obey how the players are reacting to them. Bosses and mini-bosses come through these events, odds vary by the template, but suffice to say that if you want to find bosses for raids or grouped content, it's always spawning dynamically in the world. But each encounter is going to have it's own bit of generation. Not only do the mob types and counts have variation, but any mob that is flagged as a Boss will have generated special abilities. We create something like 10 or 15 special abilities per species and difficulty type. They'll randomly choose a few of those. As anyone who has done much raiding knows, combining diffferent types of special abilities together can make for some challenging encounters, and that's what happens every time a boss spawns in The Repopulation. Some combinations of effects are much more challenging when combined with a diffferent type of effect. And as a group or raid, you will need to identify what they are doing and adjust to it on the fly in order to succeed.
So while your using generation as an example of how things will simplify gameplay. Imo they actually do the quite the opposite.
... Regarding Hero
There's a segment in one of the videos which shows some of the character creation sliders, and there are many of them. You have fine control over the entire face, body dimensions, etc. This goes beyond your average MMOs customization. A huge variety in customization. You also (as of about 2 months ago) have the ability to choose between many preset heads that you can can use as a base before starting on all of those sliders. You can tint your gear and skin. And by launch you'll also have tattoos. Armor and clothign wise at this point there are about 10 sets appearance wise, which will grow before launch. But it's safe to say that we have different metrics than a game like TOR. Our focus is going to be more centered on larger encounters during PvP, Sieges, Engagements, etc. And it will be adjusted accordingly.
In the case of TOR, your talking about multiple texture styles per visual tier, per class and 8 classes. It offered some great variety and within the goals of their game it made sense. However, it can cause a struggle when dealing with PvP because your really pushing a ton of state changes and using a lot of memory on the video card. A PvP focused game wouldn't want that, as PvP players are generally going to turn down the options to make gameplay silky smooth. That's the balancing act that developers need to deal with. In the case of TOR they choose their parameters as it made the most sense for their game. For us, 15-20 tintable sets would make a lot more sense than 100, for example. And end user might look at WoW and at ToR and wonder why they can have more customization in WoW and it handles more players well. For them they blame the engine, but the reality is that TORs characters were FAR higher polygon wise, and used normal and specular map data and higher resolution textures. WIth the same texture, just adding normal/specular will more than double your texture usage. So this makes the hit on each texture much more harsh, and as users begin to fill their texture memory it makes it far more inefficient. In general the less texture or state changes you can get away with the better. Single player games always have an advantage here because they can develop content that is single model and single texture. In MMOs players can not be handled in that manner. That ensures that they can't be batch rendered efficiently. Developers have to make a compromise somewhere in between. How much customization is enough for what we're trying to accomplish. You can't blame the engine for decisions they make.
...On AI
Again, your completley off base. Your trolling, and I'm only taking the time to respond here so invalidate the things you've said. Repop uses an AI template system. We can create custom AI types for different roles, and NPCs have control over which types of those templates to use, ability selection strategies, formation strategies, etc. There are two different player detection mechanisms, and hooks for all the main things that an NPC would do so each can have custom code. At day one of alpha start there were a total of two AI types being used: One for Turrets, and one for Creatures. Both using the most generic rule set possible. There are now multiple types. AI has already been improved in numerous ways since that time. And it's going to improve quite a bit more prior to launch as we have more time to tweak it. It hasn't been a high priority for us at this point, where getting vehicles, entertainers, sieges, dens and pvp were. By the time the game launches, you can expect many improvements.
... On Customer Service
Not going to pretend we are going to have a huge CSR army. We'll do what we can. The key is to make players need support as little as possible and to staff as many CSRs as necessary. Your really grasping at straws though.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
Amen.