Wtf are you guys talking about? This post is about native english speakers in MMO's and their relations with non native speakers, not about people living in America and not speaking english :-/
"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran
Originally posted by Krematory Wtf are you guys talking about? This post is about native english speakers in MMO's and their relations with non native speakers, not about people living in America and not speaking english :-/
It's practically the same thing. We're just making a cross-comparison between the in-game situation and reality.
MMO's are the ark of the gaming world. Let it take us in new directions.
It's not the same thing. There's not a single MMO on earth translated to my mother language, let alone running dedicated servers, so I always end up joining english servers (I can understand it, but I find some difficulties making others understand me sometimes). However, your post have nothing to do with that. It's just a bunch of american nacionalism that have no relation with the OP.
"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran
I always enjoyed playing in a multi nationality guilds.
What really annoys me the most are those who spam in their native language on general chat on a English speaking server, that's just plain disrespectful and arrogance.
When a non-native person (like me I guess) joins an English server, some people tend to get annoyed and frustrated,
-Is it because of that person's place of origin? Do you feel they won't be able to relate because of cultural differences?
-Is it because their English is often so bad that there's a real communication barrier?
-Is it because they write in their own language at times?
This is mostly a problem n European servers, and yes.. its huge. I am myself not a native english, but I have been on the internet since the mid 90s, and fint it natural to, when joining an international community, speak an international language. it was needed form the start, and considered polite. If you did not want to be a part of an internaitonal community, and liked to be ultranationalistic, people tended to remove you from communities.
I wish... I wish that your third option was true. "at times" it has never been true. it started int eh late 90s with the germans and french. They could not survive with an internet in english, and felt forced to Wherever they were, push as hard as possible german and french language. Not a single chat room, not a single game could exist without a CONSTANT spam from gemrans and french, in their respective languages. They interupted any conversation in english, filled chat boxes with a constant wave of requests to talk with someoen in their own language. Germans were my first contact with spam on the internet. Now.. they are used to being nationalistic, as the french. And with a deep loathing for the english and the english language... But... A decade later they are, not incorporated in international community but at least more used to it... They still spam every chat box of every game, even if they now HAVE German and French servers, they go to the english servers and spam there... But now at least they usually answer in english, if someone aske them to stop spamming. before they answered questions in english.. in german or french.
Nowadays... Germans and french are like a fly on an elephants back.The russians, polish and lots of other excommunists countries have completly blown them away. You can not enter any game, anywhere.... without a massive wall of nonenglish on a european english speaking server today. Ultranationalistic, they even join servers and make hostile takeovers, abusing people to leave and create a russian server of it. They even go so far as to say They invented the internet, its theirs to do with as they wish and I KNOW they are used to believing in propaganda, but they can't seriously believe others do?Anyway.... The last en years i rather get a US server copy of games, or just leave games completly if the ultranationalistic groups are not controlled by moderators.
Then we have the asians, which I guess is a bigger problem on US and Oceania servers, but playing on US servers, I find the asian spam only a fraction, maybe 3-4% of the massive spam from the ex communist countries. Heck, they have free elections and choose the same dictator year after year, its not like they WANT to join an international community. They want the wall back.
Internet was supposed to be a place where the world would meet, communicate without boundraries and understand each other... Instead, country after country create their own iron curtains around "Their" internet, refuse to communicate with others not from their country and even harass and abuse people to disappear so they "own" parts of it. Internet is slowly turning into Ultranationalistic small countries and I see noone trying to stop that, more cater to it to make it happen faster. As a user since 20 years back.... Its flipping scary.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force"
Originally posted by Krematory It's not the same thing. There's not a single MMO on earth translated to my mother language, let alone running dedicated servers, so I always end up joining english servers (I can understand it, but I find some difficulties making others understand me sometimes). However, your post have nothing to do with that. It's just a bunch of american nacionalism that have no relation with the OP.
in situations like that I tend to be more understanding. If there is someone who speaks russian and no russian server exists then they really have no other option. And that's understandable. What we are talking about is when the space for them exists and they refuse to go there. Instead they protrude into our space and refuse to adapt. That's simply rude.
And the situations are indeed very similar.
Someone who speaks russian sitting in an english server refusing to communicate in english is rude. The same goes for a person from a foreign country (lets just say russian for consistancy sake) refusing to learn any bit of english to communicate; That is also rude. We're not asking them to become master linguists with complete command of the english language, but we just want an attempt. An attempt tells us that they respect us enough to try. Same goes for ingame. Make an attempt and the server-dwellers know that you respect them enough to try. Otherwise you look like a foreign nationalist who's goal is to incite rage in the locals by spouting nonsense in his native tongue. Of course we wouldn't understand it, but the fact that we cant understand it would be frustrating in itself.
MMO's are the ark of the gaming world. Let it take us in new directions.
They even go so far as to say They invented the internet, its theirs to do with as they wish and I KNOW they are used to believing in propaganda, but they can't seriously believe others do?
Little known fact:
The basis and intergral parts of the internet was invented and expanded upon in the United States, but it was a global collaboration that got it to its current state. It's initial conception happened at the offices of Xerox. It was originally used to connect all of it's printers together. While Xerox may have invented the Ethernet protocols, they were not the sole inventors of the internet. The late Steve Jobs commented on their system when he made his visit in 1979 and said "They just had no idea what it is they had." Vincent Cerf [sic] and Robert Kahn, while working on a goverment grant (granted to them by the United states government) worked together to create the TCP/IP protocols we still use to this day. But the roots of the internet stem back even further. The U.S Government had the idea of a world wide web in the late 1940's and formed Pentagon’s Advanced Research Projects Agency Network (ARPANET) to help bring this vision to life. Cerf and Kahn were both members of this project group and helped usher in what we now as the internet, though it was incomplete. ARPANET had all the pieces for the internet but couldnt put them together.
After all of the pieces were assembles it was a combination of the research and development at Stanford, BBN, University College London, MIT, SRI, ISI, UCLA, and NDRE that gave birth to the internet. America laid the foundation for what the internet was and is, the American government funded the ARPANET project and Al Gore was the spearhead of its funding. But ultimately it was the entire world that connected the dots.
MMO's are the ark of the gaming world. Let it take us in new directions.
They even go so far as to say They invented the internet, its theirs to do with as they wish and I KNOW they are used to believing in propaganda, but they can't seriously believe others do?
Little known fact:
The basis and intergral parts of the internet was invented and expanded upon in the United States, but it was a global collaboration that got it to its current state. It's initial conception happened at the offices of Xerox. It was originally used to connect all of it's printers together. While Xerox may have invented the Ethernet protocols, they were not the sole inventors of the internet. The late Steve Jobs commented on their system when he made his visit in 1979 and said "They just had no idea what it is they had." Vincent Cerf [sic] and Robert Kahn, while working on a goverment grant (granted to them by the United states government) worked together to create the TCP/IP protocols we still use to this day. But the roots of the internet stem back even further. The U.S Government had the idea of a world wide web in the late 1940's and formed Pentagon’s Advanced Research Projects Agency Network (ARPANET) to help bring this vision to life. Cerf and Kahn were both members of this project group and helped usher in what we now as the internet, though it was incomplete. ARPANET had all the pieces for the internet but couldnt put them together.
After all of the pieces were assembles it was a combination of the research and development at Stanford, BBN, University College London, MIT, SRI, ISI, UCLA, and NDRE that gave birth to the internet. America laid the foundation for what the internet was and is, the American government funded the ARPANET project and Al Gore was the spearhead of its funding. But ultimately it was the entire world that connected the dots.
Intresting read +1.
What he was refering to as I understood it, Russian arrogance in games and how they act when they are playing games towards other nationalites.
They even go so far as to say They invented the internet, its theirs to do with as they wish and I KNOW they are used to believing in propaganda, but they can't seriously believe others do?
Little known fact:
The basis and intergral parts of the internet was invented and expanded upon in the United States, but it was a global collaboration that got it to its current state. It's initial conception happened at the offices of Xerox. It was originally used to connect all of it's printers together. While Xerox may have invented the Ethernet protocols, they were not the sole inventors of the internet. The late Steve Jobs commented on their system when he made his visit in 1979 and said "They just had no idea what it is they had." Vincent Cerf [sic] and Robert Kahn, while working on a goverment grant (granted to them by the United states government) worked together to create the TCP/IP protocols we still use to this day. But the roots of the internet stem back even further. The U.S Government had the idea of a world wide web in the late 1940's and formed Pentagon’s Advanced Research Projects Agency Network (ARPANET) to help bring this vision to life. Cerf and Kahn were both members of this project group and helped usher in what we now as the internet, though it was incomplete. ARPANET had all the pieces for the internet but couldnt put them together.
After all of the pieces were assembles it was a combination of the research and development at Stanford, BBN, University College London, MIT, SRI, ISI, UCLA, and NDRE that gave birth to the internet. America laid the foundation for what the internet was and is, the American government funded the ARPANET project and Al Gore was the spearhead of its funding. But ultimately it was the entire world that connected the dots.
If you send me an offical link that clearly state russia was an important factor in the creation of Internet, I will take that back. Heck, if you can send me a real, offical link that says Russia was involved in creating the Internet, i will take it back!
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force"
Why would anyone dislike people of other nationalities/origins coming to an English server?
I used to play FFXI and jam my RNG/NIN in groups with pure Japanese-speaking players on my English server (Quetzalcoatl). LOVED it. For one thing, FFXI had a pretty good translator that allowed you to speak with the Japanese player base, and they were great players.
Originally posted by Krematory It's not the same thing. There's not a single MMO on earth translated to my mother language, let alone running dedicated servers, so I always end up joining english servers (I can understand it, but I find some difficulties making others understand me sometimes). However, your post have nothing to do with that. It's just a bunch of american nacionalism that have no relation with the OP.
in situations like that I tend to be more understanding. If there is someone who speaks russian and no russian server exists then they really have no other option. And that's understandable. What we are talking about is when the space for them exists and they refuse to go there. Instead they protrude into our space and refuse to adapt. That's simply rude.
And the situations are indeed very similar.
Someone who speaks russian sitting in an english server refusing to communicate in english is rude. The same goes for a person from a foreign country (lets just say russian for consistancy sake) refusing to learn any bit of english to communicate; That is also rude. We're not asking them to become master linguists with complete command of the english language, but we just want an attempt. An attempt tells us that they respect us enough to try. Same goes for ingame. Make an attempt and the server-dwellers know that you respect them enough to try. Otherwise you look like a foreign nationalist who's goal is to incite rage in the locals by spouting nonsense in his native tongue. Of course we wouldn't understand it, but the fact that we cant understand it would be frustrating in itself.
Why would it be rude ? Perhaps he just doesn't speak English at all. And don't compare it to real life....it's very different if someone migrates to a country and plans to live his whole life there than someone who wants to play a game for some hours and relax there.
As long as there aren't servers dedicated for every single languages on Earth you can't expect people to play on your language. They want to play and relax and they have the right for that. It's not your server, it's the dev's one....they are the only ones who has the right to create rules. If they don't mind it, then it's not an English-only server, but an international one.
i think one of the big misunderstandings that occurs as well is when an 'english only' policy is set in place by the company/gm's/etc.
what folks i think fail to realize is that in order to regulate the community and keep some standards for interplayer relations the gm has to be able to understand what is being said. if you are spewing nazi, white supremacist violence and threats towards other players who speak your language, there is no way for an english speaking gm to to verify or deny those accusations.
often the language issue is simply one of practicality, not bigotry.
having said that, i think the majority of players who whine and complain about nonenglish speakers are just venting their own ignorance. if you truly do get a tank who can't speak a word of the party's language and they suck as a tank, then you've got problems, legit ones, and you should boot them from the group.
but honestly, ive run with a few nonenglish speaking tanks and healers and as long as they knew their job and performed well it was never a serious issue.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Originally posted by Krematory It's not the same thing. There's not a single MMO on earth translated to my mother language, let alone running dedicated servers, so I always end up joining english servers (I can understand it, but I find some difficulties making others understand me sometimes). However, your post have nothing to do with that. It's just a bunch of american nacionalism that have no relation with the OP.
in situations like that I tend to be more understanding. If there is someone who speaks russian and no russian server exists then they really have no other option. And that's understandable. What we are talking about is when the space for them exists and they refuse to go there. Instead they protrude into our space and refuse to adapt. That's simply rude.
And the situations are indeed very similar.
Someone who speaks russian sitting in an english server refusing to communicate in english is rude. The same goes for a person from a foreign country (lets just say russian for consistancy sake) refusing to learn any bit of english to communicate; That is also rude. We're not asking them to become master linguists with complete command of the english language, but we just want an attempt. An attempt tells us that they respect us enough to try. Same goes for ingame. Make an attempt and the server-dwellers know that you respect them enough to try. Otherwise you look like a foreign nationalist who's goal is to incite rage in the locals by spouting nonsense in his native tongue. Of course we wouldn't understand it, but the fact that we cant understand it would be frustrating in itself.
Why would it be rude ? Perhaps he just doesn't speak English at all. And don't compare it to real life....it's very different if someone migrates to a country and plans to live his whole life there than someone who wants to play a game for some hours and relax there.
As long as there aren't servers dedicated for every single languages on Earth you can't expect people to play on your language. They want to play and relax and they have the right for that. It's not your server, it's the dev's one....they are the only ones who has the right to create rules. If they don't mind it, then it's not an English-only server, but an international one.
Seems to me that moving to a country is more of a reason to speak the native language than casually playing a video game. I have to agree with you there.
Devs don't care because of the monetary issue, though. Paying subscribers are paying subscribers.
Comments
"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran
It's practically the same thing. We're just making a cross-comparison between the in-game situation and reality.
MMO's are the ark of the gaming world. Let it take us in new directions.
"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran
I always enjoyed playing in a multi nationality guilds.
What really annoys me the most are those who spam in their native language on general chat on a English speaking server, that's just plain disrespectful and arrogance.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
This is mostly a problem n European servers, and yes.. its huge. I am myself not a native english, but I have been on the internet since the mid 90s, and fint it natural to, when joining an international community, speak an international language. it was needed form the start, and considered polite. If you did not want to be a part of an internaitonal community, and liked to be ultranationalistic, people tended to remove you from communities.
I wish... I wish that your third option was true. "at times" it has never been true. it started int eh late 90s with the germans and french. They could not survive with an internet in english, and felt forced to Wherever they were, push as hard as possible german and french language. Not a single chat room, not a single game could exist without a CONSTANT spam from gemrans and french, in their respective languages. They interupted any conversation in english, filled chat boxes with a constant wave of requests to talk with someoen in their own language. Germans were my first contact with spam on the internet. Now.. they are used to being nationalistic, as the french. And with a deep loathing for the english and the english language... But... A decade later they are, not incorporated in international community but at least more used to it... They still spam every chat box of every game, even if they now HAVE German and French servers, they go to the english servers and spam there... But now at least they usually answer in english, if someone aske them to stop spamming. before they answered questions in english.. in german or french.
Nowadays... Germans and french are like a fly on an elephants back.The russians, polish and lots of other excommunists countries have completly blown them away. You can not enter any game, anywhere.... without a massive wall of nonenglish on a european english speaking server today. Ultranationalistic, they even join servers and make hostile takeovers, abusing people to leave and create a russian server of it. They even go so far as to say They invented the internet, its theirs to do with as they wish and I KNOW they are used to believing in propaganda, but they can't seriously believe others do?Anyway.... The last en years i rather get a US server copy of games, or just leave games completly if the ultranationalistic groups are not controlled by moderators.
Then we have the asians, which I guess is a bigger problem on US and Oceania servers, but playing on US servers, I find the asian spam only a fraction, maybe 3-4% of the massive spam from the ex communist countries. Heck, they have free elections and choose the same dictator year after year, its not like they WANT to join an international community. They want the wall back.
Internet was supposed to be a place where the world would meet, communicate without boundraries and understand each other... Instead, country after country create their own iron curtains around "Their" internet, refuse to communicate with others not from their country and even harass and abuse people to disappear so they "own" parts of it. Internet is slowly turning into Ultranationalistic small countries and I see noone trying to stop that, more cater to it to make it happen faster. As a user since 20 years back.... Its flipping scary.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
in situations like that I tend to be more understanding. If there is someone who speaks russian and no russian server exists then they really have no other option. And that's understandable. What we are talking about is when the space for them exists and they refuse to go there. Instead they protrude into our space and refuse to adapt. That's simply rude.
And the situations are indeed very similar.
Someone who speaks russian sitting in an english server refusing to communicate in english is rude. The same goes for a person from a foreign country (lets just say russian for consistancy sake) refusing to learn any bit of english to communicate; That is also rude. We're not asking them to become master linguists with complete command of the english language, but we just want an attempt. An attempt tells us that they respect us enough to try. Same goes for ingame. Make an attempt and the server-dwellers know that you respect them enough to try. Otherwise you look like a foreign nationalist who's goal is to incite rage in the locals by spouting nonsense in his native tongue. Of course we wouldn't understand it, but the fact that we cant understand it would be frustrating in itself.
MMO's are the ark of the gaming world. Let it take us in new directions.
Little known fact:
The basis and intergral parts of the internet was invented and expanded upon in the United States, but it was a global collaboration that got it to its current state. It's initial conception happened at the offices of Xerox. It was originally used to connect all of it's printers together. While Xerox may have invented the Ethernet protocols, they were not the sole inventors of the internet. The late Steve Jobs commented on their system when he made his visit in 1979 and said "They just had no idea what it is they had." Vincent Cerf [sic] and Robert Kahn, while working on a goverment grant (granted to them by the United states government) worked together to create the TCP/IP protocols we still use to this day. But the roots of the internet stem back even further. The U.S Government had the idea of a world wide web in the late 1940's and formed Pentagon’s Advanced Research Projects Agency Network (ARPANET) to help bring this vision to life. Cerf and Kahn were both members of this project group and helped usher in what we now as the internet, though it was incomplete. ARPANET had all the pieces for the internet but couldnt put them together.
After all of the pieces were assembles it was a combination of the research and development at Stanford, BBN, University College London, MIT, SRI, ISI, UCLA, and NDRE that gave birth to the internet. America laid the foundation for what the internet was and is, the American government funded the ARPANET project and Al Gore was the spearhead of its funding. But ultimately it was the entire world that connected the dots.
MMO's are the ark of the gaming world. Let it take us in new directions.
Intresting read +1.
What he was refering to as I understood it, Russian arrogance in games and how they act when they are playing games towards other nationalites.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
If you send me an offical link that clearly state russia was an important factor in the creation of Internet, I will take that back. Heck, if you can send me a real, offical link that says Russia was involved in creating the Internet, i will take it back!
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
Why would anyone dislike people of other nationalities/origins coming to an English server?
I used to play FFXI and jam my RNG/NIN in groups with pure Japanese-speaking players on my English server (Quetzalcoatl). LOVED it. For one thing, FFXI had a pretty good translator that allowed you to speak with the Japanese player base, and they were great players.
Why would it be rude ? Perhaps he just doesn't speak English at all. And don't compare it to real life....it's very different if someone migrates to a country and plans to live his whole life there than someone who wants to play a game for some hours and relax there.
As long as there aren't servers dedicated for every single languages on Earth you can't expect people to play on your language. They want to play and relax and they have the right for that. It's not your server, it's the dev's one....they are the only ones who has the right to create rules. If they don't mind it, then it's not an English-only server, but an international one.
i think one of the big misunderstandings that occurs as well is when an 'english only' policy is set in place by the company/gm's/etc.
what folks i think fail to realize is that in order to regulate the community and keep some standards for interplayer relations the gm has to be able to understand what is being said. if you are spewing nazi, white supremacist violence and threats towards other players who speak your language, there is no way for an english speaking gm to to verify or deny those accusations.
often the language issue is simply one of practicality, not bigotry.
having said that, i think the majority of players who whine and complain about nonenglish speakers are just venting their own ignorance. if you truly do get a tank who can't speak a word of the party's language and they suck as a tank, then you've got problems, legit ones, and you should boot them from the group.
but honestly, ive run with a few nonenglish speaking tanks and healers and as long as they knew their job and performed well it was never a serious issue.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Having a multi-national community is great if we can communicate effdectivly. So other than any communication issues, lets all join the melting-pot!
Seems to me that moving to a country is more of a reason to speak the native language than casually playing a video game. I have to agree with you there.
Devs don't care because of the monetary issue, though. Paying subscribers are paying subscribers.