I doubt level 60 wills want to gank level 48's all day. i mean. they can just go to TM and spam AOE's in a huge raid group and get general in about, id say 10 seconds? how long does it take to have 20 aoe's on ice trapped mobs to kill them? TM will be a hotspot forever by level 60 players, not the 48-60 zones.
The Honor system is introduced mainly for 2 reasons (personal oppinion): 1) Create more PvP on both the PvP and PvE servers 2) Reward people who make the above a succes
Also keeping in mind that killing someone lower in lvl gives less to no honor, that player wont be rewarded with the PvP "rewards" because he collects no honor. Thus wasting his PvP time. If someone doesn't care about Honor, they don't care about honor at this very moment and make mindsless corpse camping kills anyway allready. Or do i miss something?
Besides this aspect i hear people complaining about the random kills: Don't play on a PvP server If you don't like to PvP or rather be "forced" to PvP, please play on a PvE server. Not only would this mean more balanced player numbers on the servers, it reduces lag on the PvP servers due this
Untill the system is tested by the public, you can't know what will happen. sometimes the worst looking patch can be really balancing and good.
Originally posted by killerTwinkie Keep this Civil. For those who cant, read Volmars post, take a few notes, and then learn from it. So far, he has had the best post on the 2nd page of this thread.
i'm honored
*bows*
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Originally posted by crushr Also keeping in mind that killing someone lower in lvl gives less to no honor, that player wont be rewarded with the PvP "rewards" because he collects no honor. Thus wasting his PvP time.If someone doesn't care about Honor, they don't care about honor at this very moment and make mindsless corpse camping kills anyway allready. Or do i miss something?Besides this aspect i hear people complaining about the random kills: Don't play on a PvP server
I remember reading on the WoW website that the honor system would also incorporate a way to earn negative honor by killing a person that is too low of a level. I think it was, if the PC your about to kill is conning you grey, then you will get a number of negative honor points.
I thought that this was a good idea and would make it that much easier for low level players to just play the game in peace until they are high enough level to compete. But reading recent patch notes and the special previews on the honor system, it looks like they have taken out that little feature.
But what was quoted is correct, now, it seems. If you kill anyone that is much lower than you, you will still get a number of honor points. While the largest numbers won't be racking up, you will still get some. People always use the term "farming." Whether it be for items, money, or experience. Soon, I am predicting, there will be Honor Farming. I can see it now, level 60s farming greens in areas to get up there honor points.
Killing a (blank) will/should yield: Grey = No honor(hopefully changed to negative honor). Green = Little honor(if you kill more than x number greens honor should go into negatives, it won't) Yellow = More honor(corpse camping will happen at this level of con the most. "Get him before he can heal, quick!") Orange = Heavy amounts of honor(this type of kill most likely won't happen a lot. Everyone in the game, it seems, is afraid to take risks, so even though Blizz's version of honor doesn't get you negative for dying, I still doubt many people will be hunting for oranges by themselves) Red = lots and lots and lots of honor
It is my opinion that if you are killed by a grey con or a green con, you should lose some honor. Just because that is flat out embarassing. Maybe there will be more hardcore servers in the future that will give you negative honor for getting killed by anything lower than a red.
That doesn't prevent lower-leveled characters from banding together and killing higher ups, because it'll lower their honor and constitute as griefing.
In my opinion, Blizzard means well with the honor system, but people will find a way to abuse it. The highest-ranking PvPs will be people who will find a way to abuse the system, this is almost guaranteed.
Grouping while fighting in PvP tallies up all honor and divies it up evenly between all of the group mates. And who's to say that you have to fight that low level group alone? You can always get help or find a way to avoid them.
I also agree with your last statement. Abuse will happen and eventually something will have to change to fix the loop holes that people are working through to take advantage.
yes, the original intention was to give dishonor points for killing grey players. the idea has been delayed for now to see how the non-punishment system works. you WILL get dishonor kills. they just are nothing but a number on your sheet at the moment though.
i think they didn't because the factors to take in consideration are quite much. a group of grey guys is slaughtering all the guards of Crossroads (level 47 are greys to 60s). so what you do? do not defend the city cause it is not honorable?
What if there is a group of people, all grey to you but 5 Vs 1.. is that dishonorable too? So Blizzard wanted to play it safe for now.
Also corpse camping is quite curbed by the fact killing same person twice give you half the honor (a guess) and after a while it gives you none... so quite pointless.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
I believe that the honor system is a flawed idea to begin with. There is no way to account for all the possibilities that can happen, as was mentioned before. You can't say whether a kill is honorable or dishonorable because it can depend on the situation. Either way, PvP is still pretty pointless, the honor system gives you access to better equipment but it still promotes senseless killing in mass droves. I would much rather have seen captureable structures or zones that gives you access to, say, new content such as a special raid instance if you win. At least that gives PvP a point. Right now all it is is a massive virtual pissing contest of numbers.
When first released, yes, the honor system will have a lot of negatives. After a while, though, someone will get tired of all the complaints and eventually fix it. My vote is going for a 'yes' in hopes that it will be fixed soon after the release.
Then again, I could be wrong and it could work out all perfectly and make me look bad.
Originally posted by Ranma13 I believe that the honor system is a flawed idea to begin with. There is no way to account for all the possibilities that can happen, as was mentioned before. You can't say whether a kill is honorable or dishonorable because it can depend on the situation. Either way, PvP is still pretty pointless, the honor system gives you access to better equipment but it still promotes senseless killing in mass droves. I would much rather have seen captureable structures or zones that gives you access to, say, new content such as a special raid instance if you win. At least that gives PvP a point. Right now all it is is a massive virtual pissing contest of numbers.
For that you will have to wait the Battlegrounds, then you will have all you asked for.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Originally posted by Ranma13 ....I would much rather have seen captureable structures or zones that gives you access to, say, new content such as a special raid instance if you win. At least that gives PvP a point. Right now all it is is a massive virtual pissing contest of numbers.
True, but heck! it's a start. If you take a look to the Arena event that will take place every 3 hours or so... This really looks like massive fun to me Once every 3 hours, a box it dropped inside the Arena, the first to open it holds the loot.. Lots of PvP (massive chaos probably, but fun) and a goal.
If i take a look at AO; they do have a raid/PvP instance. at the bottom of a PvP dungeon is a dragon wich drops nice loot. This is fun (most of the time ) Perhaps it will be implemented as well. Atleast Blizzard EU has a great community dude (thundgott), since i have a strong feeling this is the 'old' Cz, from AO. My guess it that these sort things get implemented sooner or later. He listens to the community very good and has quite some experience within MMORPG and their con's/pro's.
Anyway, lets see how things go first, then go back here and flame it why it doesn't (j/k)
Disclaimer: I know there are quite some AO-flamers around here, please keep in mind that this is about WoW and not AO or Cz/Thundgott, thank you..
Well with the recent announcement that NPCs will be EXCLUDED from giving honor points, it looks like even Blizzard knew their system was flawed...
But worst yet is that they are still half assing it with this sit back and wait approach with dishonor. Seems like they have no idea how to regulate the system they created in a haste to add more "content". Good/Bad, Ying/Yang, Light/Dark, WoW honor system: Honorable/??????? All things have a polar opposite. You know you do something wrong you expect to suffer SOME type of consequences for you actions but obviously not in WoW.
A joke of a death penalty and now this.......
Quickest way to implement a penalty system, allow players who have been killed by someone more than 10 levels higher than them to place a bounty on that person's head. This would in turn place a bounty mark over the player's head so EVERYONE can see he/she has a active bounty on their head. Cash would be payable to the first person that can produce a death certificate(rewarded to the person who did the most damage and killed said player) and turns it in to the nearest NPC bounty marshal.
That way players are holding all the cards and Blizzard has a quick fix until they can think of something better.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Originally posted by Ramonski7 Well with the recent announcement that NPCs will be EXCLUDED from giving honor points, it looks like even Blizzard knew their system was flawed...But worst yet is that they are still half assing it with this sit back and wait approach with dishonor. Seems like they have no idea how to regulate the system they created in a haste to add more "content". Good/Bad, Ying/Yang, Light/Dark, WoW honor system: Honorable/??????? All things have a polar opposite. You know you do something wrong you expect to suffer SOME type of consequences for you actions but obviously not in WoW.A joke of a death penalty and now this.......Quickest way to implement a penalty system, allow players who have been killed by someone more than 10 levels higher than them to place a bounty on that person's head. This would in turn place a bounty mark over the player's head so EVERYONE can see he/she has a active bounty on their head. Cash would be payable to the first person that can produce a death certificate(rewarded to the person who did the most damage and killed said player) and turns it in to the nearest NPC bounty marshal.That way players are holding all the cards and Blizzard has a quick fix until they can think of something better.
Yeah, you have a good point. I can see how some random guy on an internet forum would know more about game development than professional game developers.
No, wait.............
Joking aside, I think you'd do yourself a favor to just uninstall WoW and forget about it. It sounds to me like it'll never be the game you want it to be.
That would be cool. Blizzard should do something like that. Blizzard with all its money and glory should easily be able to pull that off in a couple of weeks. but instead they just tweak everything and dont add any more to a game that was lacking in the first place. Just give us the content and let us devour it. dont hold it in our face and say "this will be coming soon".
I must have missed something....Did I say i was an expert at game development? Last time I check it is the developers who need the FEEDBACK of the random internet forum posting guys to make better games.......or do we leave that up to them? Excuse me but didn't it occur to you that maybe the reason half the stuff they implement/change is because they fill test servers up with random non-expert game developing players and wait for feedback?
It's not like I'm rambling off at the mouth without just cause. I at least atempted to suggest a possible solution for players here to ponder unlike some posters...........
P.S. I've been playing WoW for 4 months now and I love it. So why wouldn't I have the right to voice an opinion about something they plan to implement even if it was somewhat negative? I mean wouldn't I be a little bit more encouraged/informed to do so seeing as I am actually PLAYING the game?
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Originally posted by Ramonski7 I must have missed something....Did I say i was an expert at game development? Last time I check it is the developers who need the FEEDBACK of the random internet forum posting guys to make better games.......or do we leave that up to them? Excuse me but didn't it occur to you that maybe the reason half the stuff they implement/change is because they fill test servers up with random non-expert game developing players and wait for feedback?It's not like I'm rambling off at the mouth without just cause. I at least atempted to suggest a possible solution for players here to ponder unlike some posters...........P.S. I've been playing WoW for 4 months now and I love it. So why wouldn't I have the right to voice an opinion about something they plan to implement even if it was somewhat negative? I mean wouldn't I be a little bit more encouraged/informed to do so seeing as I am actually PLAYING the game?
Sorry if I offended you, but you do seem to think that Blizzard's devs are just fumbling around with ideas then throwing them out onto the test server to see if they stick. Ever heard of internal testing?
I'm glad you've proposed a solution to what you see as being a problem. As we've discussed though, I disagree. I think the honor system as it's proposed will be the spark to the fuse that'll take WoW from being a heck lot of fun to being an epic experience.
Anyway, I'm glad to hear you're enjoying WoW. That wasn't the impression I was getting.
I personally share some reservations about the system because of the population differences moreso than the system. We'll see what happens when the system goes in place. Good or bad it's gonna be changed this is just the first attempt at seeing how it works.
Two months and where do you stand as far as PvP in WoW goes? Some of you may have changed your views on the honor system and some may have not. I sure haven't and to my defense it seems that Blizzard is now making all those DKs mean something. Just recently they have announced that DKs will reduce someone's rank to zero. Good? I think not because it only applies to NPCs!! WTF! Can't they even get that right? NPCs should have NO bearing on the outcome of a honor/dishonor PvP system. This is for players only.
Again I make a suggestion:
Turn dishonor kills into Dishonorable deaths and have it work so that each person gets 3 honorable deaths per day. Now when you trigger a battle with a green or above you are flagged as using one of your HDs and if you die one of your HDs is used up, but if you live you keep it. And when all three are used up you then start to gain dishonorable deaths which stack against your score and rank, but of course only if you die. So basicly it puts a limit on zerging and forces players to be more effective when engaging in PvP. You can even have it that you automaticly use up a HD when you engage in battle with players that con grey to you. All this of course works one way, you cannot be forced to use a HD as each player's flag is only triggered by first initial combat.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Maybe I was a fool to believe Blizzard when they said people wouldn't bother ganking if there was no reward, but I was counting on the Blizzard I knew up until then - the company full of passionate gamers obsessed with polish, fairness, and balance - not the freakshow version of Blizzard that seems determined to slowly dismantle and destroy WoW.
Before the honor system I could chill with my guild and play the game I wanted to play, but now I can't quest for more than 10 minutes without being reminded by a much higher level character (or, more typically, a group of them) ganking mine that WoW is populated almost entirely by infants.
Since the implementation, my play time has gone from a heck of a lot to hardly at all.
If I could honestly say I believe Blizzard will improve this and several other flawed aspects of the game within the next few months I'd stick with the game, but it's painfully clear they're no longer the company they once were, and I can't see myself playing it for much longer.
A lot of people talk about the cream of Blizzard's talent moving off to other companies. I didn't believe it. Now I do.
I play a PVP server, and I find it to be a pain in Hillsbrad to level (I am a horde, I don't know what you are) and Ashenvale somewhat of a problem. However, I rack up a lot of honor points (I am currently 32) gathering fellow hordes around my level, and a few higher than me, and capturing Alliance towns. This tends to make them focus on their town other than lowbie killing. Also, when I am in 1,000 Needles or Stonetalon, I rarely run into problems.
i play on australian servers because racism is acceptable there
Comments
I doubt level 60 wills want to gank level 48's all day. i mean. they can just go to TM and spam AOE's in a huge raid group and get general in about, id say 10 seconds? how long does it take to have 20 aoe's on ice trapped mobs to kill them? TM will be a hotspot forever by level 60 players, not the 48-60 zones.
and TM is already a hotspot lol
--Ha, Pwned--
Pvp = godliness
Playing: WoW
Waiting on: Gods and Heroes
The Honor system is introduced mainly for 2 reasons (personal oppinion):
1) Create more PvP on both the PvP and PvE servers
2) Reward people who make the above a succes
Also keeping in mind that killing someone lower in lvl gives less to no honor, that player wont be rewarded with the PvP "rewards" because he collects no honor. Thus wasting his PvP time.
If someone doesn't care about Honor, they don't care about honor at this very moment and make mindsless corpse camping kills anyway allready. Or do i miss something?
Besides this aspect i hear people complaining about the random kills: Don't play on a PvP server
If you don't like to PvP or rather be "forced" to PvP, please play on a PvE server. Not only would this mean more balanced player numbers on the servers, it reduces lag on the PvP servers due this
Untill the system is tested by the public, you can't know what will happen. sometimes the worst looking patch can be really balancing and good.
i'm honored
*bows*
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
I remember reading on the WoW website that the honor system would also incorporate a way to earn negative honor by killing a person that is too low of a level. I think it was, if the PC your about to kill is conning you grey, then you will get a number of negative honor points.
I thought that this was a good idea and would make it that much easier for low level players to just play the game in peace until they are high enough level to compete. But reading recent patch notes and the special previews on the honor system, it looks like they have taken out that little feature.
But what was quoted is correct, now, it seems. If you kill anyone that is much lower than you, you will still get a number of honor points. While the largest numbers won't be racking up, you will still get some. People always use the term "farming." Whether it be for items, money, or experience. Soon, I am predicting, there will be Honor Farming. I can see it now, level 60s farming greens in areas to get up there honor points.
Killing a (blank) will/should yield:
Grey = No honor(hopefully changed to negative honor).
Green = Little honor(if you kill more than x number greens honor should go into negatives, it won't)
Yellow = More honor(corpse camping will happen at this level of con the most. "Get him before he can heal, quick!")
Orange = Heavy amounts of honor(this type of kill most likely won't happen a lot. Everyone in the game, it seems, is afraid to take risks, so even though Blizz's version of honor doesn't get you negative for dying, I still doubt many people will be hunting for oranges by themselves)
Red = lots and lots and lots of honor
It is my opinion that if you are killed by a grey con or a green con, you should lose some honor. Just because that is flat out embarassing. Maybe there will be more hardcore servers in the future that will give you negative honor for getting killed by anything lower than a red.
That doesn't prevent lower-leveled characters from banding together and killing higher ups, because it'll lower their honor and constitute as griefing.
In my opinion, Blizzard means well with the honor system, but people will find a way to abuse it. The highest-ranking PvPs will be people who will find a way to abuse the system, this is almost guaranteed.
Grouping while fighting in PvP tallies up all honor and divies it up evenly between all of the group mates. And who's to say that you have to fight that low level group alone? You can always get help or find a way to avoid them.
I also agree with your last statement. Abuse will happen and eventually something will have to change to fix the loop holes that people are working through to take advantage.
yes, the original intention was to give dishonor points for killing grey players. the idea has been delayed for now to see how the non-punishment system works. you WILL get dishonor kills. they just are nothing but a number on your sheet at the moment though.
i think they didn't because the factors to take in consideration are quite much. a group of grey guys is slaughtering all the guards of Crossroads (level 47 are greys to 60s). so what you do? do not defend the city cause it is not honorable?
What if there is a group of people, all grey to you but 5 Vs 1.. is that dishonorable too? So Blizzard wanted to play it safe for now.
Also corpse camping is quite curbed by the fact killing same person twice give you half the honor (a guess) and after a while it gives you none... so quite pointless.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
I believe that the honor system is a flawed idea to begin with. There is no way to account for all the possibilities that can happen, as was mentioned before. You can't say whether a kill is honorable or dishonorable because it can depend on the situation. Either way, PvP is still pretty pointless, the honor system gives you access to better equipment but it still promotes senseless killing in mass droves. I would much rather have seen captureable structures or zones that gives you access to, say, new content such as a special raid instance if you win. At least that gives PvP a point. Right now all it is is a massive virtual pissing contest of numbers.
Nice and simple.
When first released, yes, the honor system will have a lot of negatives. After a while, though, someone will get tired of all the complaints and eventually fix it. My vote is going for a 'yes' in hopes that it will be fixed soon after the release.
Then again, I could be wrong and it could work out all perfectly and make me look bad.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
True, but heck! it's a start.
If you take a look to the Arena event that will take place every 3 hours or so... This really looks like massive fun to me
Once every 3 hours, a box it dropped inside the Arena, the first to open it holds the loot.. Lots of PvP (massive chaos probably, but fun) and a goal.
If i take a look at AO; they do have a raid/PvP instance.
)
(j/k)
at the bottom of a PvP dungeon is a dragon wich drops nice loot. This is fun (most of the time
Perhaps it will be implemented as well.
Atleast Blizzard EU has a great community dude (thundgott), since i have a strong feeling this is the 'old' Cz, from AO. My guess it that these sort things get implemented sooner or later. He listens to the community very good and has quite some experience within MMORPG and their con's/pro's.
Anyway, lets see how things go first, then go back here and flame it why it doesn't
Disclaimer: I know there are quite some AO-flamers around here, please keep in mind that this is about WoW and not AO or Cz/Thundgott, thank you..
no need for feelings Crushr, cause he is coming over from AO.. so he must be him...eh
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Well with the recent announcement that NPCs will be EXCLUDED from giving honor points, it looks like even Blizzard knew their system was flawed...
But worst yet is that they are still half assing it with this sit back and wait approach with dishonor. Seems like they have no idea how to regulate the system they created in a haste to add more "content". Good/Bad, Ying/Yang, Light/Dark, WoW honor system: Honorable/??????? All things have a polar opposite. You know you do something wrong you expect to suffer SOME type of consequences for you actions but obviously not in WoW.
A joke of a death penalty and now this.......
Quickest way to implement a penalty system, allow players who have been killed by someone more than 10 levels higher than them to place a bounty on that person's head. This would in turn place a bounty mark over the player's head so EVERYONE can see he/she has a active bounty on their head. Cash would be payable to the first person that can produce a death certificate(rewarded to the person who did the most damage and killed said player) and turns it in to the nearest NPC bounty marshal.
That way players are holding all the cards and Blizzard has a quick fix until they can think of something better.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Yeah, you have a good point. I can see how some random guy on an internet forum would know more about game development than professional game developers.
No, wait.............
Joking aside, I think you'd do yourself a favor to just uninstall WoW and forget about it. It sounds to me like it'll never be the game you want it to be.
I must have missed something....Did I say i was an expert at game development? Last time I check it is the developers who need the FEEDBACK of the random internet forum posting guys to make better games.......or do we leave that up to them? Excuse me but didn't it occur to you that maybe the reason half the stuff they implement/change is because they fill test servers up with random non-expert game developing players and wait for feedback?
It's not like I'm rambling off at the mouth without just cause. I at least atempted to suggest a possible solution for players here to ponder unlike some posters...........
P.S. I've been playing WoW for 4 months now and I love it. So why wouldn't I have the right to voice an opinion about something they plan to implement even if it was somewhat negative? I mean wouldn't I be a little bit more encouraged/informed to do so seeing as I am actually PLAYING the game?
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Sorry if I offended you, but you do seem to think that Blizzard's devs are just fumbling around with ideas then throwing them out onto the test server to see if they stick. Ever heard of internal testing?
I'm glad you've proposed a solution to what you see as being a problem. As we've discussed though, I disagree. I think the honor system as it's proposed will be the spark to the fuse that'll take WoW from being a heck lot of fun to being an epic experience.
Anyway, I'm glad to hear you're enjoying WoW. That wasn't the impression I was getting.
Wait till its implemented befor you panic. I think it will be a positive change.
I personally share some reservations about the system because of the population differences moreso than the system. We'll see what happens when the system goes in place. Good or bad it's gonna be changed this is just the first attempt at seeing how it works.
Two months and where do you stand as far as PvP in WoW goes? Some of you may have changed your views on the honor system and some may have not. I sure haven't and to my defense it seems that Blizzard is now making all those DKs mean something. Just recently they have announced that DKs will reduce someone's rank to zero. Good? I think not because it only applies to NPCs!! WTF! Can't they even get that right? NPCs should have NO bearing on the outcome of a honor/dishonor PvP system. This is for players only.
Again I make a suggestion:
Turn dishonor kills into Dishonorable deaths and have it work so that each person gets 3 honorable deaths per day. Now when you trigger a battle with a green or above you are flagged as using one of your HDs and if you die one of your HDs is used up, but if you live you keep it. And when all three are used up you then start to gain dishonorable deaths which stack against your score and rank, but of course only if you die. So basicly it puts a limit on zerging and forces players to be more effective when engaging in PvP. You can even have it that you automaticly use up a HD when you engage in battle with players that con grey to you. All this of course works one way, you cannot be forced to use a HD as each player's flag is only triggered by first initial combat.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I've completely changed my mind.
Maybe I was a fool to believe Blizzard when they said people wouldn't bother ganking if there was no reward, but I was counting on the Blizzard I knew up until then - the company full of passionate gamers obsessed with polish, fairness, and balance - not the freakshow version of Blizzard that seems determined to slowly dismantle and destroy WoW.
Before the honor system I could chill with my guild and play the game I wanted to play, but now I can't quest for more than 10 minutes without being reminded by a much higher level character (or, more typically, a group of them) ganking mine that WoW is populated almost entirely by infants.
Since the implementation, my play time has gone from a heck of a lot to hardly at all.
If I could honestly say I believe Blizzard will improve this and several other flawed aspects of the game within the next few months I'd stick with the game, but it's painfully clear they're no longer the company they once were, and I can't see myself playing it for much longer.
A lot of people talk about the cream of Blizzard's talent moving off to other companies. I didn't believe it. Now I do.
WoW: A lot of potential wasted.
I play a PVP server, and I find it to be a pain in Hillsbrad to level (I am a horde, I don't know what you are) and Ashenvale somewhat of a problem. However, I rack up a lot of honor points (I am currently 32) gathering fellow hordes around my level, and a few higher than me, and capturing Alliance towns. This tends to make them focus on their town other than lowbie killing. Also, when I am in 1,000 Needles or Stonetalon, I rarely run into problems.
Double post