Originally posted by Istavaan Wow went 8 months without any new content updates, so 8 x 15$ = no content.
I would rather a game rob me right up front with a sub than try to be sneaky about it with crap from a sub shop.
at least you have a choice to be robbed or not.
How so?
If the games time requirements are increased to funnel you to the cash shop, then you've been robbed of time.
If the games fun has been locked behind a pay wall, then you've been robbed of fun. If both are to harsh and you leave a game you would have otherwise have liked, then you've been robbed of a game.
Though, cash shops like TSW, GW2, and PS2 aren't bad at all and some that I can live with. These however are not the standard when it comes to cash shops sadly.
The same thing applies sub-locked games. If you don't pay extra for the Rift xpac you are left behind. They gate and lock instance rewards to require you to sub longer. They implement artificial time sinks to ensure your recurring fee is in place. P2P games are just as "pay to win" as most B2P or F2P games.
I voted B2P, but any sub-free option would be good. TSW has a great hybrid model. I also like the B2P model in GW2. I like how STO has it's F2P set up as well.
The longer I go without sub-locked games the more convinced I am that I won't rent access to a game again. I've spent over $300 in Rift and when my sub ends in March/April then all that will be down the drain. I spent $60 on GW2, $30 on TSW, and $20 on Tera. I haven't spent over $100 across all my games in the cash shop for the last year. I get to enjoy those games and access the content I paid for (without requiring additional fees) until they close the servers. No P2P game offers that and none of them offer me a better experience for the heavy restriction of paywall access.
So you just want another game as a notch on your belt until the next thing comes along. Thats a valid reason. I still perfer a sub, I have the money and don't mind paying to play a game if I am having fun. If I stop having fun I stop paying the sub.
I think they've spent far too much money in development of this game for there to even be a tiny fraction of a percentage of a chance that it will be free to play.
The only lucrative options are Buy to Play and Pay to Play. Considering the game will have mechanics in it to keep you playing well past level cap, I'm going to say it will be subscription based. Unlike GW2, a popular buy to play game, ESO will actually have End Game content.
People want p2p and a mature community but the thought that the game will die in few months doesnt come to their mind.
Low population ruins the game, many aspects of the game fail because of this.
High populations of cheapskate nubs ruins games as well.
or low populations of suckers who pay monthly subs for very average games that don't give you any new content.
If your game is weak, then no payment model is going to save it. Pirates of the Burning Sea is one example. Sub didn't work. Hooking up with SOE didn't work. Being on Steam didn't work. Going Free-to-Play didn't work.
TSW had a 300% population increase when it went b2p, b2p is a healthier business model.
I disagree. If the game is done well and catered to what the players want the sky is the limit. You will make so much more money than a B2P model it is not even funny.
More people will buy the game if it has no sub, there are elder scrolls fans who don't play mmorpg's because they think paying a subscription for a game you've already bought is stupid, which it is.
This is some pretty fail logic. They are already going to get a good sized crowd of MMO players that will buy the game. That is a no brainer regardless of how much love/hate you see on this site. ANY player they get to even just buy the game that is an Elder Scrolls fan, but never played an MMO is just pure gravy to them.
So they have a chance to reel in more than just the MMO base of players that most games don't have the luxury of doing because this game is based in the world of a popular non MMO series.
I guess when you make a good point Istavaan 'forgets' to respond when you call him out directly. Keep furiously trying to respond to all of the people that like P2P. It is quite amusing.
Originally posted by Fearum Originally posted by Istavaan Originally posted by Nitth Originally posted by Istavaan The sub model is dead, this game will be B2P.
The more you say it doesnt make it true.
You only have to look at recent and upcoming releases to know it's true.
Why arent you playing all the F2P games out already? Why do you need more? Are the ones out now not good enough for F2P?
Guess i should express my thoughts to the origonal post..
I voted P2P i will always believe it will be the best option for the business provided that they have a good product to back it up.
Main Advantages for the consumer is Commitment. In a P2P game you have to: Buy the game, Then commit to 1 month reoccurring payments. once actually in the game people are gona make a damn good go of it because they invested As opposed to a f2p or buy to play consumer that thought they would try it on a whim and quit in 3 days.
I guess you could argue that p2p customers could still unsub and end it all right? Its possible but from experience you will hear about their unpleasest experience until their sub time runs out unlike a f2p,b2p consumer who will just drop off the face of the earth.
I support B2P. On paper it looks like the best option for the consumers, But in reality it has alot of downfalls that people don't immediately see. The main ones being that you end up spending more in the cash shop than a monthly sub. Lots of statistical studies have proven this to be true. along those lines the games are designed with cash shop incentives and finally the stuff i mentioned above about the low commitment level such as people taking the "easy way out" and not saying anything to the community or guilds when they leave.
I will pay for either p2p and b2p models as long as the product is good.(which is up for speculation atm)
Not everyone is going to agree on this but its my view. I also believe its strongly tied to people perceptions nowdays about what mmorpgs are: a game or a service.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Stupid threads like this is the very reason why developers should not listen to players. Before the game was even green lit they have a rather great idea of what the sub model will be, at what expected playerbase level. Its much of how they determine budget and milestones. This half cocked thread on a fansite board will make absolutely zero difference.
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
Guess i should express my thoughts to the origonal post..
I voted P2P i will always believe it will be the best option for the business provided that they have a good product to back it up.
Main Advantages for the consumer is Commitment. In a P2P game you have to: Buy the game, Then commit to 1 month reoccurring payments. once actually in the game people are gona make a damn good go of it because they invested As opposed to a f2p or buy to play consumer that thought they would try it on a whim and quit in 3 days.
I guess you could argue that p2p customers could still unsub and end it all right? Its possible but from experience you will hear about their unpleasest experience until their sub time runs out unlike a f2p,b2p consumer who will just drop off the face of the earth.
I support B2P. On paper it looks like the best option for the consumers, But in reality it has alot of downfalls that people don't immediately see. The main ones being that you end up spending more in the cash shop than a monthly sub. Lots of statistical studies have proven this to be true. along those lines the games are designed with cash shop incentives and finally the stuff i mentioned above about the low commitment level and they "easy way out" without saying anything to the community or guilds.
I will pay for either p2p and b2p models as long as the product is good.(which is up for speculation atm)
Not everyone is going to agree on this but its my view. I also believe its strongly tied to people perceptions nowdays about what mmorpgs are: a game or a service.
I agree with everything you said, except I don't like cash shops. Its funny how so many people like B2P but nobody supports the game by buying anything. The game will eventually run out of money or not have enough coming in to make anything going out if nobody buys anything extra.
Because a player who plays 400 hours a month might end up paying more than the original $15 a month and if you base pricing off of that much playtime then most players would be paying little compared to before.
I would suggest something like $0.25 an hour played per month up to say 60 hours and then it caps off at $15.
For me, the player, I'd much rather see a game released worthy of charging a sub with no cash shop.
But you asked us to "think like Zenimax." Business-wise, you cannot go wrong with B2P and Cash Shop. B2P is all the rage now so people will accept that it is great from the get-go. You avoid going F2P from a sub when your game fails to keep the players' interests, so all looks fine from the outside when numbers start to drop. Also, creating cool items for the cash shop is much more profitable than creating actual content, which is now a by-product just to keep players playing so they may pay more. For box sales, I would create about 4 tiers of boxes to make people with money feel special. I would tack on some in-game assets for those who pre-purchase.
After all, the whole reason I (being Zenimax) am creating TES:O is for cash, right?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by IstavaanThe sub model is dead, this game will be B2P.
The more you say it doesnt make it true.
You only have to look at recent and upcoming releases to know it's true.
You only need 1 successful P2P title to prove that false.
There are plenty of F2P games that these free loaders can enjoy, why do they need another?
How exactly is b2p free loading?
Why arent you playing a B2P game now. You have a few choices, are they not good enough to keep you playing?
I am playing a b2p game at the moment.
How much have you spent in the cash shop if any at all?
I haven't spent anything in the cash shop.
Yeah thats what everyone says here, but some how these games continue to go on with no other income than a box price.
I can assure you that most GW2 players don't lurk these forums.
I haven't spent a penny either, not even on bags / bank space.
So you support B2P but you don't buy anything to support the company for making the game B2P. This seems odd.
If I liked the game more I would use the cash shop. It's a good game but not my cup of tea. It was worth the money I spent on the box, nothing more. I would have cancelled my sub after the first month.
Comments
You only have to look at recent and upcoming releases to know it's true.
You only need 1 successful P2P title to prove that false.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Because they are not The Elder Scrolls.
There are plenty of F2P games that these free loaders can enjoy, why do they need another?
How exactly is b2p free loading?
So you just want another game as a notch on your belt until the next thing comes along. Thats a valid reason. I still perfer a sub, I have the money and don't mind paying to play a game if I am having fun. If I stop having fun I stop paying the sub.
I think they've spent far too much money in development of this game for there to even be a tiny fraction of a percentage of a chance that it will be free to play.
The only lucrative options are Buy to Play and Pay to Play. Considering the game will have mechanics in it to keep you playing well past level cap, I'm going to say it will be subscription based. Unlike GW2, a popular buy to play game, ESO will actually have End Game content.
I guess when you make a good point Istavaan 'forgets' to respond when you call him out directly. Keep furiously trying to respond to all of the people that like P2P. It is quite amusing.
Why arent you playing a B2P game now. You have a few choices, are they not good enough to keep you playing?
The more you say it doesnt make it true.
You only have to look at recent and upcoming releases to know it's true.
Why arent you playing all the F2P games out already? Why do you need more? Are the ones out now not good enough for F2P?
Because they are not The Elder Scrolls.
Neither is this.I am playing a b2p game at the moment.
How much have you spent in the cash shop if any at all?
I haven't spent anything in the cash shop.
Yeah thats what everyone says here, but some how these games continue to go on with no other income than a box price.
I can assure you that most GW2 players don't lurk these forums.
I haven't spent a penny either, not even on bags / bank space.
Guess i should express my thoughts to the origonal post..
I voted P2P i will always believe it will be the best option for the business provided that they have a good product to back it up.
Main Advantages for the consumer is Commitment.
In a P2P game you have to: Buy the game, Then commit to 1 month reoccurring payments. once actually in the game people are gona make a damn good go of it because they invested As opposed to a f2p or buy to play consumer that thought they would try it on a whim and quit in 3 days.
I guess you could argue that p2p customers could still unsub and end it all right? Its possible but from experience you will hear about their unpleasest experience until their sub time runs out unlike a f2p,b2p consumer who will just drop off the face of the earth.
I support B2P.
On paper it looks like the best option for the consumers, But in reality it has alot of downfalls that people don't immediately see. The main ones being that you end up spending more in the cash shop than a monthly sub. Lots of statistical studies have proven this to be true. along those lines the games are designed with cash shop incentives and finally the stuff i mentioned above about the low commitment level such as people taking the "easy way out" and not saying anything to the community or guilds when they leave.
I will pay for either p2p and b2p models as long as the product is good.(which is up for speculation atm)
Not everyone is going to agree on this but its my view. I also believe its strongly tied to people perceptions nowdays about what mmorpgs are: a game or a service.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
well in gw2's case they sold over 3 million copies of the game so that helps.
So you support B2P but you don't buy anything to support the company for making the game B2P. This seems odd.
He supported the game by paying 60$ dollars for it, or is that not money in your eyes?
I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.
To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.
I agree with everything you said, except I don't like cash shops. Its funny how so many people like B2P but nobody supports the game by buying anything. The game will eventually run out of money or not have enough coming in to make anything going out if nobody buys anything extra.
Did anyone really think it would?
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Pay as much, as u play, with cap payment method
Because a player who plays 400 hours a month might end up paying more than the original $15 a month and if you base pricing off of that much playtime then most players would be paying little compared to before.
I would suggest something like $0.25 an hour played per month up to say 60 hours and then it caps off at $15.
For me, the player, I'd much rather see a game released worthy of charging a sub with no cash shop.
But you asked us to "think like Zenimax." Business-wise, you cannot go wrong with B2P and Cash Shop. B2P is all the rage now so people will accept that it is great from the get-go. You avoid going F2P from a sub when your game fails to keep the players' interests, so all looks fine from the outside when numbers start to drop. Also, creating cool items for the cash shop is much more profitable than creating actual content, which is now a by-product just to keep players playing so they may pay more. For box sales, I would create about 4 tiers of boxes to make people with money feel special. I would tack on some in-game assets for those who pre-purchase.
After all, the whole reason I (being Zenimax) am creating TES:O is for cash, right?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
If I liked the game more I would use the cash shop. It's a good game but not my cup of tea. It was worth the money I spent on the box, nothing more. I would have cancelled my sub after the first month.