A big name in the industry wanting to make a successor to one of the insutry's big names...and he is resorting to public funding?
It doesn't compute. If he wanted to make a low budget MMO he should have no problem securing funding, and the freedom to make the game he wanted to make.
But instead he is choosing to take advantage of the public, using the Camelot name to secure free capital he doesnt need to pay back. The whole thing seems off to me.
Just consider: If you use borrowed money, you have incentive to succeed. If you use free money, then it doesnt matter, you dont have to pay anyone back.
Kickstarter for a startup company of unknown developers is one thing. For a big name person developing a big name game though...It doesnt add up.
You made a thread asking why someone would try to secure interest-free capital vs. capital with interest attached...
Are you being intentionally obtuse?
You are the one beng intentionally obtuse.
Someone with the means to secure funds, and do so without a big name publisher telling him how he should make the game, is instead asking potential customers (who may or may not even like the finished project, if there is one) to foot the bill.
Its obvious *why* he would want to do it, but is it very ethical to do so? I see it as abusing people's good faith and, in some cases, gullibility. For example, there are numerous people in this thread that thnk if the project meets the kickstarter but fails they wont lose anything because of the ToS.
Originally posted by DavisFlightDarkfall is one of the only MMOs in the last 8 years to grow after launch.
DF does not grow, that is a silly statement. Whether Aventurine is doing well is questionable considering their deal with InternertQ and possible buy-out, Aventurine is either very confident or very broke.
Also, 1M budget of DF?
DF had 35 devs at release. If those 35 ppl worked on the game for the last year only and were paid lousy 24k EUR per year, it is still 840k EUR(about 1M USD). DF was in development for more than 6 years and those are salaries only...
Originally posted by Father_Jack It might help you to actually visit the site and see how Kickstarters opperate. Because you like many people in this thread obvioulsy have no idea how KS works.
I do know how KS operates, unfortunately you do not understand the differences between donation, purchase and investment.
KS is a donation by all means - there is no liability/accountability for money you gave away.
It might help you to actually visit the site and see how Kickstarters opperate. Because you like many people in this thread obvioulsy have no idea how KS works.
I do know how KS operates, unfortunately you do not understand the differences between donation, purchase and investment.
KS is a donation by all means - there is no liability/accountability for money you gave away.
No you clearly don't understand. A donation is something you give with no expectation of anything in return. Purchase is when you give with a certainty you will recieve something in return. Investment is when you give with an expectation you will recieve something in return. The level of risk involved in your expectation of a return on investment is based on a lot of factors.
It doesn't matter if you are a venture capitalist investing a million dollars hoping for a financial return or an individual investing on KS hoping for a book, game, product etc. from your investment. Yes there is a risk depends on the investment, but you are expecting something in return. It's not a donation.
And that is why so many people say that DaoC was PvP for PvE carebare players. It was hand holding PvP(along with other implimentations) and many of the games developers say it PUBLICLY as can be seen on the TESO website. Factions with race restrictions is to CLEARLY DEFINE who the enemy is by keeping the factions different.
And sadly, even Jacobs said today on the massively stream...CU will have factions to hold players hands...if you are arthurian you will only be able to play with arthurians and cant attack or be attack by other arthurians...for realm pride...lol. pride? that isnt pride. Pride is beating your enemies which can also be done in open world pvp!
You have no idea of the realm pride you are speaking of here. Sure you are happy if you can pwn someone in an open world pvp. which is FFA if you do not have any restrictions.
But realm pride is created by knowing with whom and against whom you are fighting. Suddenly you are fighting not for your own, but for your faction (realm). To bind races at factions is a clever idea to amplify the feeling of togetherness, which results at the end in the pretense of real purpose. Which is a strong motivator to stick in that game and forms a strong (factionwide) community which is again a reason to stick to that game.
For me it is ok if you do not want to have restriction in which faction you are with your race or who you want to kill in an open world. But then camelot uncained is nothing for you, since it is not player vs player but realm vs realm
You have no idea of realm pride you are speaking of here since apparently you have never been in a realm that could actually be attacked and you successfully defended it...DaoC had false realm pride because the fighting was all taking place in set places OUTSIDE the realm in controlled enviorments created to MAKE you want to go there. Realm pride, actual REALM pride comes from victory, from the want of protecting JUST TO PROTECT and not for a carrot, for being BETTER, defeating the ENEMEY...this bogus idea of having to have races different in each faction has nothing to do with PRIDE, it has to do with making sure dumb gamers dont get all confused...and the rest of what you said smacks more of racism than pride...and your ending smacks of not knowing the industry, longevity has nothing to do with it as The Realm, Meridian 59, Ultima Online, Asherons Call and Anarchy Online are OLDER and all still running and dont have those limitations. Points negated.
And NO, open world PvP does not = FFA. FFA = FFA. Open world PvP means PvP can take place ANYWHERE in the world and yes, you CAN have factions and open world PvP as many games have already shown including some of the older ones listed above.The only reasons that remain to keep faction areas closed is the inability to program a game that can handle the load of an open world (open world means NO LOADING ZONES) and action taking place all over it.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
The cold harsh truth is that there are people willing to part their money. Who are they to refuse this money?
In other words, if a fool gives you money, you accept it. No questions asked.
On the topic of investment, I thought I read somewhere once that kickstarter specifically avoids the word 'investment' because it creates expectations. That's why they always call it a 'backing' of a project. You can and will lose money if you're not careful, the world is full of people preying on your money.
A donation is something you give with no expectation of anything in return.
Determining factor is the recipient, not the expectations of who is giving the money out.
Accountability of recipient is what matters.
You are completely wrong. It's in the mind of the giver that they don't require anything in return. That is a donation. That is what makes it a donation. It is a GIFT. I give you something and don't want anything back. If you are expecting something in return that is not a donation.
Couldn't find the kickstarter page. Googled it and no luck at all. Kickstarter site sucks, TBH. But if someone provides a link, I might donate a little.
Originally posted by DavisFlight Publishers don't fund GOOD MMOs, they fund WoW clones.
True.
The Kickstarter doesn't start until March.
They can't find conventional funding because every time this formula has been tried it's been a financial failure. If your definition of good is a MMO that never made any money I suppose it's true.
I'm sorry, but what fantasy land do you live in?
It's the WoW clones that have all been huge flops. They usually flop so hard they take the company that made them with them. Two of Funcom's partners went bankrupt after Age of Conan flopped. SWTOR destroyed most of Bioware and Mythic, and crippled EA for a couple of months too.
The only MMOs that have done really well over the years, post WoW, are the ones that do unique things, with solid execution, then build on it. See: Eve, Darkfall. Those games have grown over time, while all WoW clones have died within weeks of launch.
Publishers don't know jack all about MMOs. Hence why we've been in an MMO dark age for almost 8 years now.
Darkfall was a dismal financial failure.
Stopped reading there. You obviously have no clue about the industry.
Darkfall is one of the only MMOs in the last 8 years to grow after launch.
The dev team went from about 20 devs, on a one million dollar budget, making a game over the course of 5 years.
They've since, started selling boxed copies, opened a second server, hired 40 more developers, moved into a bigger office. Released 3 expansions AND a sequel.
How do you do that if you're a dismal financial failure?
And never exceeeded 50k subscribers ( a very generous overestimation) or paid back the multi million dollar loans and investments taken out over a period of years. The sequal is an even worse disaster. Do you know anything about the history of Aventurine?
Exceeding 50k subscribers is not important. Growth and profit is important. SWTOR exceeded 1 million subs, yet its a total disaster and the company behind it crumbled into dust. Aventurine though, has flourished with their under 50k subs.
They never had multi million dollar loans.
The sequel isn't even out yet, so good luck trying to convince anyone its a disaster.
Couldn't find the kickstarter page. Googled it and no luck at all. Kickstarter site sucks, TBH. But if someone provides a link, I might donate a little.
Originally posted by DavisFlight Publishers don't fund GOOD MMOs, they fund WoW clones.
True.
The Kickstarter doesn't start until March.
They can't find conventional funding because every time this formula has been tried it's been a financial failure. If your definition of good is a MMO that never made any money I suppose it's true.
I'm sorry, but what fantasy land do you live in?
It's the WoW clones that have all been huge flops. They usually flop so hard they take the company that made them with them. Two of Funcom's partners went bankrupt after Age of Conan flopped. SWTOR destroyed most of Bioware and Mythic, and crippled EA for a couple of months too.
The only MMOs that have done really well over the years, post WoW, are the ones that do unique things, with solid execution, then build on it. See: Eve, Darkfall. Those games have grown over time, while all WoW clones have died within weeks of launch.
Publishers don't know jack all about MMOs. Hence why we've been in an MMO dark age for almost 8 years now.
Darkfall was a dismal financial failure. EVE predates WoW by more than a year and is only a modest success despite having solid financial backing. It has about 400k subscribers. EVE also has a robust PvE community. To make a real comparison you need to look at games like Dark and light, Mourning Realms of Krel, Ryzom, Darkfall, Shadowbane, Mortal Online,and Xsyon. Soem of the WoW clones that failed did better than any of those, even the ones that went F2P.
I have no idea if this game will be successful but anyone that thinks people are lining up to throw huge sums of money at itwithout something to show investors is kidding themselves.
oh come on eve is a very sucessful mmo by any standards.
If eve isnt a sucessful mmo, the only sucessful mmo ever is WOW.
It's modestly successful. Half a dozen of the WoW clones that failed have made more money than EVE. EVE's remarkable trait is it's longevity and continued development. It's on par with DAOC.
Are you out of your mind?
You think games that take 100 million bucks to make, and are mass marketed, then flop right after release...making the companies behind them dissolve...
are MORE successful than a game that has been steadily increasing its sub and profits ever year for OVER EIGHT YEARS?
There is not a single western post WoW AAA MMORPG that has ever come close to sustaining as many subs as Eve has.
You think EVE hasn't struggled financially? You think it was an instant success? Do you know how close they came to losing everything the first year? It's a very hardware intensive game. You can put away that strawman. If every other MMO ever made lost money it wouldn't make EVE anything more than a modest success.
Being the second largest subscription based MMO, that is continually growing, is not a modest success.
Stopped reading there. You obviously have no clue about the industry.
Darkfall is one of the only MMOs in the last 8 years to grow after launch.
The dev team went from about 20 devs, on a one million dollar budget, making a game over the course of 5 years.
They've since, started selling boxed copies, opened a second server, hired 40 more developers, moved into a bigger office. Released 3 expansions AND a sequel.
How do you do that if you're a dismal financial failure?
And never exceeeded 50k subscribers ( a very generous overestimation) or paid back the multi million dollar loans and investments taken out over a period of years. The sequal is an even worse disaster. Do you know anything about the history of Aventurine?
Yeah, he summed it up pretty well.
The original DF was certainly not a roaring success, but to call it a "dismal failure", is a display of ignorance.
For what it cost to make it's an abomination.
You mean, 1.2 million dollars?
Then what does that make SWTORs 300+ million dollar budget?
Originally posted by Father_Jack If you are expecting something in return that is not a donation.
You can expect anything you want, it does not matter. In fact, you can receive goods or service in exchange for your money and it will be still a donation because as said, what matters is how money are used by recipient...
Originally posted by DavisFlight Originally posted by zymurgeistOriginally posted by CecropiaOriginally posted by zymurgeistOriginally posted by DavisFlightStopped reading there. You obviously have no clue about the industry.Darkfall is one of the only MMOs in the last 8 years to grow after launch.The dev team went from about 20 devs, on a one million dollar budget, making a game over the course of 5 years.They've since, started selling boxed copies, opened a second server, hired 40 more developers, moved into a bigger office. Released 3 expansions AND a sequel.How do you do that if you're a dismal financial failure?
And never exceeeded 50k subscribers ( a very generous overestimation) or paid back the multi million dollar loans and investments taken out over a period of years. The sequal is an even worse disaster. Do you know anything about the history of Aventurine? Yeah, he summed it up pretty well.The original DF was certainly not a roaring success, but to call it a "dismal failure", is a display of ignorance. For what it cost to make it's an abomination.You mean, 1.2 million dollars?
Then what does that make SWTORs 300+ million dollar budget?
It doesn't matter if you are a venture capitalist investing a million dollars hoping for a financial return or an individual investing on KS hoping for a book, game, product etc. from your investment. Yes there is a risk depends on the investment, but you are expecting something in return. It's not a donation.
These two words are words that everyone thinking about kickstarting need to seriously contemplate.
If you expect anything out of kickstarting CU you are a fool. This includes a finished product, a finished product you enjoy, MJ worrying about what the fans want vs the bottom line, and your money back if the project fails. None of these are guaranteed, and I think only the third of the four options I listed has a decent chance of happening (I think MJ will keep fans in the loop, but its certainly not any more of an obligation because they gave the capital, as they cant pull it back).
Kickstarting is merely hope.
You are technically right, it is not a donation. Howver most people consider the early beta access and free ponies as a thank you, rather than a payment. In most cases you certainly arent getting fair money value back. So in most cases its a donation with an investment component.
You think EVE hasn't struggled financially? You think it was an instant success? Do you know how close they came to losing everything the first year? It's a very hardware intensive game. You can put away that strawman. If every other MMO ever made lost money it wouldn't make EVE anything more than a modest success.
Being the second largest subscription based MMO, that is continually growing, is not a modest success.
LOL.
CCP has had incredible success with EVE. I find it hard to believe that anyone who frequents a site like this would genuinely believe otherwise.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Then what does that make SWTORs 300+ million dollar budget?
These figures somebody in Greece gave you?
"Facts: Team size at start: 3 Team size at release: 35 Time from concept to release: 12years Time from full production to release: 6 years Lines of code at release: Around 2million."
Good luck getting that to add up to 1.2 million.
If you take only the 3 people at startup, give them a low average salary of 40k you have 1.44 million off just those three employees alone. Granted those people were probably not paying themselves, but it gives a good perspective.
You think EVE hasn't struggled financially? You think it was an instant success? Do you know how close they came to losing everything the first year? It's a very hardware intensive game. You can put away that strawman. If every other MMO ever made lost money it wouldn't make EVE anything more than a modest success.
Being the second largest subscription based MMO, that is continually growing, is not a modest success.
LOL.
CCP has had incredible success with EVE. I find it hard to believe that anyone who frequents a site like this would genuinely believe otherwise.
Originally posted by strangiato2112 Originally posted by skyexileOriginally posted by DavisFlight
You mean, 1.2 million dollars?Then what does that make SWTORs 300+ million dollar budget?These figures somebody in Greece gave you? "Facts:Team size at start: 3Team size at release: 35Time from concept to release: 12yearsTime from full production to release: 6 yearsLines of code at release: Around 2million."
Good luck getting that to add up to 1.2 million.
If you take only the 3 people at startup, give them a low average salary of 40k you have 1.44 million off just those three employees alone. Granted those people were probably not paying themselves, but it gives a good perspective.
ah lol, yea didnt know their team size went to 35, but either way, 1.2M...i loled... PER YEAR MAYBE!
It doesn't matter if you are a venture capitalist investing a million dollars hoping for a financial return or an individual investing on KS hoping for a book, game, product etc. from your investment. Yes there is a risk depends on the investment, but you are expecting something in return. It's not a donation.
These two words are words that everyone thinking about kickstarting need to seriously contemplate.
If you expect anything out of kickstarting CU you are a fool. This includes a finished product, a finished product you enjoy, MJ worrying about what the fans want vs the bottom line, and your money back if the project fails. None of these are guaranteed, and I think only the third of the four options I listed has a decent chance of happening (I think MJ will keep fans in the loop, but its certainly not any more of an obligation because they gave the capital, as they cant pull it back).
Kickstarting is merely hope.
You are technically right, it is not a donation. Howver most people consider the early beta access and free ponies as a thank you, rather than a payment. In most cases you certainly arent getting fair money value back. So in most cases its a donation with an investment component.
Hmmm, every year I "buy" a badge on Anzac Day (Veterans day), Is it the badge I am buying or am I making a donation to a charity?
Every year I "buy" a poppy on remembrance day. Is it the poppy I am buying or am I donating to a charity for war widows?
Lots of charities "sell" token items which are really a means of showing appreciation for a donation.
Investment is putting money into something with the expectation of gain, usually over a longer term. That is the return of the principal (the amount invested) and a premium based on risk. Kickstarter funding is definately not this.
Originally posted by craftseekerLots of charities "sell" token items which are really a means of showing appreciation for a donation.
...and make all sort of events - concerts, gala dinners, auctions, etc.
As I said earlier, what matters is recipient. Essential
KS is by all means donation - there is no obligation/accountability for money received, which means you may give something in return or not, that is only up to recipient.
If you expect anything out of kickstarting CU you are a fool. This includes a finished product, a finished product you enjoy, MJ worrying about what the fans want vs the bottom line, and your money back if the project fails. None of these are guaranteed, and I think only the third of the four options I listed has a decent chance of happening (I think MJ will keep fans in the loop, but its certainly not any more of an obligation because they gave the capital, as they cant pull it back).
This is clearly your own bias. YI person isn't a fool to expect anything out of a KS. I have helped launched several KSers and given to many more. Everyone involved has always gotten MORE than they expected from the KS. Wether it's bonuses from stretch goals or a more high quality product than was promised. To say someone is a fool to expect something makes you look a fool. You should expect to recieve what was promised but you should also be aware fo the risks.
There are risks everytime you buy something, KS may be a bigger risk than going down to the store. But you can't get the things in the store you can get on KS. Are there kickstarters that fail to deliver? Sure I suppose, I personally don't know of any and ive watched dozens of them, but its a sort of buyer beware situation. Just like everywhere.
It is clearly an investment. You give some money and in return you get something you really wanted at a later date. Your ROI isn't in cash dividends, but in a product. Maybe that thing you wanted is to play in a beta, does it make it any less valuable to you if you want it just because you can't hold it in your hand?
The level of return reflects how much you want to give, the more you give the more you can expect to recieve in return. You'll know what to expect going into it.
If it fails it fails everything is a gamble, people should certainly be aware of that. But to call people fools for using KS isn't waranted
...and make all sort of events - concerts, gala dinners, auctions, etc.
KS is by all means donation. Period.
A donation is the act of giving a Gift. A gift is somthing given without the expectation of receiving anything in return. You can keep saying its a donation, but you are still so very wrong. Try reading a dictionary.
If you give to a kickstarter you clearly are expecting something in return, that is your whole motivation. The person receiving it is pledging to give you something in return.
Originally posted by Father_Jack A donation is the act of giving a Gift. A gift is somthing given without the expectation of receiving anything in return. You can keep saying its a donation, but you are still so very wrong. Try reading a dictionary.
It doesn't matter if you are a venture capitalist investing a million dollars hoping for a financial return or an individual investing on KS hoping for a book, game, product etc. from your investment. Yes there is a risk depends on the investment, but you are expecting something in return. It's not a donation.
These two words are words that everyone thinking about kickstarting need to seriously contemplate.
If you expect anything out of kickstarting CU you are a fool. This includes a finished product, a finished product you enjoy, MJ worrying about what the fans want vs the bottom line, and your money back if the project fails. None of these are guaranteed, and I think only the third of the four options I listed has a decent chance of happening (I think MJ will keep fans in the loop, but its certainly not any more of an obligation because they gave the capital, as they cant pull it back).
Kickstarting is merely hope.
You are technically right, it is not a donation. Howver most people consider the early beta access and free ponies as a thank you, rather than a payment. In most cases you certainly arent getting fair money value back. So in most cases its a donation with an investment component.
Hmmm, every year I "buy" a badge on Anzac Day (Veterans day), Is it the badge I am buying or am I making a donation to a charity?
Every year I "buy" a poppy on remembrance day. Is it the poppy I am buying or am I donating to a charity for war widows?
Lots of charities "sell" token items which are really a means of showing appreciation for a donation.
Investment is putting money into something with the expectation of gain, usually over a longer term. That is the return of the principal (the amount invested) and a premium based on risk. Kickstarter funding is definately not this.
In those cases you are not making a donation you are purchasing a poppy or a badge. The profits from which support the different causes. If you gave money to Red Cross and received nothing in return that would be a donation.
I believe this thread is moot because there HAS to be soem type of safe guard against simply taking the money and retiring to a small resort island in the Carribean.
I don't really think that 2 million is worth completely ruining your name and credibility in your industry.
Put away the tin foil hats folks. Conspiracy, there is not.
Comments
You are the one beng intentionally obtuse.
Someone with the means to secure funds, and do so without a big name publisher telling him how he should make the game, is instead asking potential customers (who may or may not even like the finished project, if there is one) to foot the bill.
Its obvious *why* he would want to do it, but is it very ethical to do so? I see it as abusing people's good faith and, in some cases, gullibility. For example, there are numerous people in this thread that thnk if the project meets the kickstarter but fails they wont lose anything because of the ToS.
DF does not grow, that is a silly statement. Whether Aventurine is doing well is questionable considering their deal with InternertQ and possible buy-out, Aventurine is either very confident or very broke.
Also, 1M budget of DF?
DF had 35 devs at release. If those 35 ppl worked on the game for the last year only and were paid lousy 24k EUR per year, it is still 840k EUR(about 1M USD). DF was in development for more than 6 years and those are salaries only...
I do know how KS operates, unfortunately you do not understand the differences between donation, purchase and investment.
KS is a donation by all means - there is no liability/accountability for money you gave away.
No you clearly don't understand. A donation is something you give with no expectation of anything in return. Purchase is when you give with a certainty you will recieve something in return. Investment is when you give with an expectation you will recieve something in return. The level of risk involved in your expectation of a return on investment is based on a lot of factors.
It doesn't matter if you are a venture capitalist investing a million dollars hoping for a financial return or an individual investing on KS hoping for a book, game, product etc. from your investment. Yes there is a risk depends on the investment, but you are expecting something in return. It's not a donation.
You have no idea of realm pride you are speaking of here since apparently you have never been in a realm that could actually be attacked and you successfully defended it...DaoC had false realm pride because the fighting was all taking place in set places OUTSIDE the realm in controlled enviorments created to MAKE you want to go there. Realm pride, actual REALM pride comes from victory, from the want of protecting JUST TO PROTECT and not for a carrot, for being BETTER, defeating the ENEMEY...this bogus idea of having to have races different in each faction has nothing to do with PRIDE, it has to do with making sure dumb gamers dont get all confused...and the rest of what you said smacks more of racism than pride...and your ending smacks of not knowing the industry, longevity has nothing to do with it as The Realm, Meridian 59, Ultima Online, Asherons Call and Anarchy Online are OLDER and all still running and dont have those limitations. Points negated.
And NO, open world PvP does not = FFA. FFA = FFA. Open world PvP means PvP can take place ANYWHERE in the world and yes, you CAN have factions and open world PvP as many games have already shown including some of the older ones listed above.The only reasons that remain to keep faction areas closed is the inability to program a game that can handle the load of an open world (open world means NO LOADING ZONES) and action taking place all over it.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
The cold harsh truth is that there are people willing to part their money. Who are they to refuse this money?
In other words, if a fool gives you money, you accept it. No questions asked.
On the topic of investment, I thought I read somewhere once that kickstarter specifically avoids the word 'investment' because it creates expectations. That's why they always call it a 'backing' of a project. You can and will lose money if you're not careful, the world is full of people preying on your money.
Determining factor is the recipient, not the expectations of who is giving the money out.
Accountability of recipient is what matters.
You are completely wrong. It's in the mind of the giver that they don't require anything in return. That is a donation. That is what makes it a donation. It is a GIFT. I give you something and don't want anything back. If you are expecting something in return that is not a donation.
Exceeding 50k subscribers is not important. Growth and profit is important. SWTOR exceeded 1 million subs, yet its a total disaster and the company behind it crumbled into dust. Aventurine though, has flourished with their under 50k subs.
They never had multi million dollar loans.
The sequel isn't even out yet, so good luck trying to convince anyone its a disaster.
Do you know anything about... the world?
Being the second largest subscription based MMO, that is continually growing, is not a modest success.
You mean, 1.2 million dollars?
Then what does that make SWTORs 300+ million dollar budget?
You can expect anything you want, it does not matter. In fact, you can receive goods or service in exchange for your money and it will be still a donation because as said, what matters is how money are used by recipient...
Yeah, he summed it up pretty well. The original DF was certainly not a roaring success, but to call it a "dismal failure", is a display of ignorance.
For what it cost to make it's an abomination.
You mean, 1.2 million dollars?
Then what does that make SWTORs 300+ million dollar budget?
These figures somebody in Greece gave you?
SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.
These two words are words that everyone thinking about kickstarting need to seriously contemplate.
If you expect anything out of kickstarting CU you are a fool. This includes a finished product, a finished product you enjoy, MJ worrying about what the fans want vs the bottom line, and your money back if the project fails. None of these are guaranteed, and I think only the third of the four options I listed has a decent chance of happening (I think MJ will keep fans in the loop, but its certainly not any more of an obligation because they gave the capital, as they cant pull it back).
Kickstarting is merely hope.
You are technically right, it is not a donation. Howver most people consider the early beta access and free ponies as a thank you, rather than a payment. In most cases you certainly arent getting fair money value back. So in most cases its a donation with an investment component.
LOL.
CCP has had incredible success with EVE. I find it hard to believe that anyone who frequents a site like this would genuinely believe otherwise.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
"Facts:
Team size at start: 3
Team size at release: 35
Time from concept to release: 12years
Time from full production to release: 6 years
Lines of code at release: Around 2million."
Good luck getting that to add up to 1.2 million.
If you take only the 3 people at startup, give them a low average salary of 40k you have 1.44 million off just those three employees alone. Granted those people were probably not paying themselves, but it gives a good perspective.
3rd most successful western MMORPG in history
These figures somebody in Greece gave you?
"Facts:Team size at start: 3Team size at release: 35Time from concept to release: 12yearsTime from full production to release: 6 yearsLines of code at release: Around 2million."
Good luck getting that to add up to 1.2 million.
If you take only the 3 people at startup, give them a low average salary of 40k you have 1.44 million off just those three employees alone. Granted those people were probably not paying themselves, but it gives a good perspective.
ah lol, yea didnt know their team size went to 35, but either way, 1.2M...i loled... PER YEAR MAYBE!
SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.
Hmmm, every year I "buy" a badge on Anzac Day (Veterans day), Is it the badge I am buying or am I making a donation to a charity?
Every year I "buy" a poppy on remembrance day. Is it the poppy I am buying or am I donating to a charity for war widows?
Lots of charities "sell" token items which are really a means of showing appreciation for a donation.
Investment is putting money into something with the expectation of gain, usually over a longer term. That is the return of the principal (the amount invested) and a premium based on risk. Kickstarter funding is definately not this.
...and make all sort of events - concerts, gala dinners, auctions, etc.
As I said earlier, what matters is recipient. Essential
KS is by all means donation - there is no obligation/accountability for money received, which means you may give something in return or not, that is only up to recipient.
This is clearly your own bias. YI person isn't a fool to expect anything out of a KS. I have helped launched several KSers and given to many more. Everyone involved has always gotten MORE than they expected from the KS. Wether it's bonuses from stretch goals or a more high quality product than was promised. To say someone is a fool to expect something makes you look a fool. You should expect to recieve what was promised but you should also be aware fo the risks.
There are risks everytime you buy something, KS may be a bigger risk than going down to the store. But you can't get the things in the store you can get on KS. Are there kickstarters that fail to deliver? Sure I suppose, I personally don't know of any and ive watched dozens of them, but its a sort of buyer beware situation. Just like everywhere.
It is clearly an investment. You give some money and in return you get something you really wanted at a later date. Your ROI isn't in cash dividends, but in a product. Maybe that thing you wanted is to play in a beta, does it make it any less valuable to you if you want it just because you can't hold it in your hand?
The level of return reflects how much you want to give, the more you give the more you can expect to recieve in return. You'll know what to expect going into it.
If it fails it fails everything is a gamble, people should certainly be aware of that. But to call people fools for using KS isn't waranted
A donation is the act of giving a Gift. A gift is somthing given without the expectation of receiving anything in return. You can keep saying its a donation, but you are still so very wrong. Try reading a dictionary.
If you give to a kickstarter you clearly are expecting something in return, that is your whole motivation. The person receiving it is pledging to give you something in return.
Real world is a bit more complex than that...
In those cases you are not making a donation you are purchasing a poppy or a badge. The profits from which support the different causes. If you gave money to Red Cross and received nothing in return that would be a donation.
I believe this thread is moot because there HAS to be soem type of safe guard against simply taking the money and retiring to a small resort island in the Carribean.
I don't really think that 2 million is worth completely ruining your name and credibility in your industry.
Put away the tin foil hats folks. Conspiracy, there is not.