The moaners are no more "tes fans" than the people that aren't.
Half of these so called "uber tes fans" seem somewhat lacking in their tes knowledge for a start.
Also most of the "make it more like tes" suggestions seem to be in reality "make it more like everquest" or "make it more like star wars galaxies" suggestions
Thats what I'm getting.
I can't see me getting the single player TES experience from ESO, regardless of what MMO they decided to slap TES onto. They're two different types of games for a start.
Just hoping it's a fun enjoyable game with lots of replay value.
The moaners are no more "tes fans" than the people that aren't.
Half of these so called "uber tes fans" seem somewhat lacking in their tes knowledge for a start.
Also most of the "make it more like tes" suggestions seem to be in reality "make it more like everquest" or "make it more like star wars galaxies" suggestions
funny thing is, in these threads you seem to be the only person who every mentions EQ or SWG. People say
"TES has x feature and there is zero reason why TESO cannot have it so why did they change it
and you seem to read
"TES has x feature, SWG also has x feature, I want TESO to be SWG"
People want certain features to be like TES games because.....they like the TES games not becuase another MMO has them and they want TESO to be like that MMO.
I can't see me getting the single player TES experience from ESO, regardless of what MMO they decided to slap TES onto. They're two different types of games for a start.
Just hoping it's a fun enjoyable game with lots of replay value.
Not speaking for everyone but personally I don't see TESO having to be drastically different from TES. There are obvious things that need to be addressed but my main problem with their design is that things have changed that didn't need to be. Race locking factions are totally uncessessary. Restricting exploration is totally uneccessary. Both could have been achieved by having factions that are unrelated to specific races allowing anyone to join, thus removing the need for border restrictions.
The problem for me isn't that they had to change things to make TES work as TESO. It is that they changed things that didn't need changing and for no apparent reason other then they wanted to have DAOC RvR combat. They basically forgot to design a new system and just copid DAOC....irrespective of if it would work or if it would have adverse effects on the rest of the game.
There's one group of players who thought tes would be like a fantasy eve or a big budget darkfall, to be honest that's what I thought it would be like.
You've got another group who thought it would be a 99% pve game like EQ or swg.
They can't satisfy both camps.
So what do they do. Well they could go with camp 1 but they wouldn't sell that much and would be looking at eve levels of players, which given the budget wouldn't be acceptable.
Or they could go pure pve and have even less players (remember vanguard)
The majority of players like both pve and pvp, but don't like pvp interfering with their pve.
So they have to have pvp, but not "forced" pvp. That leaves them 2 options, take a wow style approach and ghetto pvp off in meaningless mini games, which would really piss off the first group, and well the last thing we need in the mmo space is yet another bloody wow clone.
Or they take a daoc approach, which at least has some emergent behaviour in pvp so would annoy the first camp less and the second camp can still completely avoid pvp.
But history shows if you go the daoc approach you need hard factions, you can't have wooly "soloutions" where people can be chums in pve - tsw, Ao, Aoc culture servers even gw2 sort of. Or where people can have alts on the same server of differing factions - swtor, wow, rift, war after bioware takeover, where you get xfaction cheating running rife.. The only games that got it truly right - daoc itself, both planetsides, early war went very hard on faction lock.
It's a price they pay to make the game work.
Of course what they should do is copy daoc more and have coop servers with no pvp where you can go anywhere and group / guild with anyone, and ffa pvp servers where guilds claim keeps.
You all want freedom of exploration, in a game that has three factions at war with one another.
Try being Lebanese and getting into Israel. Or North Korean and getting into South Korea.
It's nigh on impossible. Reason being, these places are at war with one another.
Put that element into a game and you have factions which restrict your ability to sneak into the others lands, because you are at war with them.
Now, I see this as sensible designing, however, I don't agree with it in principle.
Personally, I'd love the ability to sneak into another factions land and apply diplomacy or subterfuge/sabotage. I mean, TESO will have Sneak as an active ability. Hopefully the Speech skill tree is there as well. It'd make sense if any game could apply mechanics like this to RvR PvP, TESO should be that game!
(For any devs reading this: imagine having a character have a diplomacy quest hub in the capitol, which requires you sneaking into another factions land, finding a specific npc, conducting speech check, and gaining information your faction can then use against either other factions (map reveals, weakened supplies, etc) or against the 4th faction (Imperials))
I think the one saving grace to this seperated faction design would be if the content available to all three factions is unique.
The dungeons the Daggerfall experience between levels 20-30 are nothing like what the Ebonhearts experience, and the Aldmeri don't have any dungeons of a similar theme till level 45-50.
That could be a saving grace - Design on good, decent, individual gameplay, so that all three factions, with alts, don't feel like your playing quests on repeat.
I have more arguments I can make both for and against, sensible responses to my initial $0.02 might get me to voice 'till we hit $0.10.
because the games lead designers are stuck in the past and cannot come up with any new ideas. They have on rose colored glasses and actually believe the game they are basing it off of was great...so great it seems they think it will apply successfully to anything even though history proves them wrong.
::sigh:: Tamriel is huge, and there are lots of places a person can travel and explore, but we're going to be forbidden to explore the land becuase the developers want to recreate DAoC? This maybe the one reason I will not even look at this game now. Stupid.
you'll just need to make more than one character. think of it as 3 ES games in one.
No. I just won't play their game.
Then don't, I mean there not gonna be able to please everybody some people are gonna like it some are not....
The new RVR Camelot Unchained is on the horizon maybe that is what your looking for then.......
This is the problem. All of the DAOC people will have Camelot Unchained and now TES. TES is a large IP that has nothing to do with DAOC...why force it on fans of TES? I don't feel sorry for DAOC people as they will have another game. I hope it isn't too late for the TES people to remove the invisible gates (or whatever they are going to use to block people). Screw PVP immersion. That's really the only reason they are doing this.
Edit: I can't believe PvP fans are defending their decision to gut open world PvP. Really the only people that should be defending this are the DAOC fans.
You all want freedom of exploration, in a game that has three factions at war with one another. - I personally want freedom of exploration in a game where various factions are fighting over the crown but these factions are NOT race locked. They could have been Great houses (like having 1 Breton lord and all his army, 1 Elf from south and her army, 1 Elf from east and their army) , PvE guild factions (similar to great houses but just factions with interesting names and political ideals/aspirations) or even just have guilds fighting for the crown (after all it is a player that apparently puts the crown on so it makes more sence that a guild leader would put it on then anything else).
etc but
Try being Lebanese and getting into Israel. Or North Korean and getting into South Korea.
It's nigh on impossible. Reason being, these places are at war with one another. - Where do these guys fight then? If North Korea can't fight in South Korea and South Korea cannot fight in North Korea when would the fight be? Did the Germans fire bombs into France or INVADE!
Put that element into a game and you have factions which restrict your ability to sneak into the others lands, because you are at war with them. - Exactly. You are at war, entering their land is dangerous. But you can enter.
Now, I see this as sensible designing, however, I don't agree with it in principle. - I see it as lazy design.
Personally, I'd love the ability to sneak into another factions land and apply diplomacy or subterfuge/sabotage. I mean, TESO will have Sneak as an active ability. Hopefully the Speech skill tree is there as well. It'd make sense if any game could apply mechanics like this to RvR PvP, TESO should be that game!
(For any devs reading this: imagine having a character have a diplomacy quest hub in the capitol, which requires you sneaking into another factions land, finding a specific npc, conducting speech check, and gaining information your faction can then use against either other factions (map reveals, weakened supplies, etc) or against the 4th faction (Imperials))
I think the one saving grace to this seperated faction design would be if the content available to all three factions is unique. - 2 ways to look at this. If there is enough unique content in each faction to level a character to max level then why restrict it. If I want to make 2 characters from the same faction I have to repeat content. If there were no borders i could go to another place to level. (it all depends on if there really is unique content in each faction, I doubt it.
The dungeons the Daggerfall experience between levels 20-30 are nothing like what the Ebonhearts experience, and the Aldmeri don't have any dungeons of a similar theme till level 45-50. - Dungeons. Either each faction with have unique individual dungeons (meaning a lot more development time and also slower released content as they will have to release content for each faction) or they are copy pasted. Options are to put them all on Cyrodil (not great for non PvP'ers), put them into faction land but teleport to entrance (makes me shudder thinking about the cheesyness of it) or each faction has a unique dungeon each release (will slow down releases as they have to do 3 times the content)
That could be a saving grace - Design on good, decent, individual gameplay, so that all three factions, with alts, don't feel like your playing quests on repeat. - Their set-up actually makes alts and repeated content very probable unless you ony create 1 character per faction which may not be what people want. Personally I want to creat an Orc and a Breton (always have) but both are in the same faction. That means I either repeat content (never had a problem doing it in the past tbh) but never get to see the other content (that will annoy me and is a problem) or create an alt in another faction just so I can see the rest of the game (so much for faction loyalty).
I have more arguments I can make both for and against, sensible responses to my initial $0.02 might get me to voice 'till we hit $0.10.
Originally posted by ShakyMo There's one group of players who thought tes would be like a fantasy eve or a big budget darkfall, to be honest that's what I thought it would be like.
You've got another group who thought it would be a 99% pve game like EQ or swg.
They can't satisfy both camps. - There is a 3rd camp. TES fans who thought it would be a like TES only online (I know, tough one to grasp but I am sure that is another camp).
So what do they do. Well they could go with camp 1 but they wouldn't sell that much and would be looking at eve levels of players, which given the budget wouldn't be acceptable.
Or they could go pure pve and have even less players (remember vanguard)
The majority of players like both pve and pvp, but don't like pvp interfering with their pve. - And yet the PvP totally interfere's with the PvP from the fact that to get their PvP working they locked races to factions up to locking borders to keep 'faction identity'.
So they have to have pvp, but not "forced" pvp. That leaves them 2 options, take a wow style approach and ghetto pvp off in meaningless mini games, which would really piss off the first group, and well the last thing we need in the mmo space is yet another bloody wow clone.
Or they take a daoc approach, which at least has some emergent behaviour in pvp so would annoy the first camp less and the second camp can still completely avoid pvp. - Or they take the WOW aproach and Don't have mini games and keep all the PvP inside Cyrodil (their lore actually states why no PvP takes place outside Cyrodil so this approach is already 100% fine according to their own lore).
But history shows if you go the daoc approach you need hard factions, you can't have wooly "soloutions" where people can be chums in pve - tsw, Ao, Aoc culture servers even gw2 sort of. Or where people can have alts on the same server of differing factions - swtor, wow, rift, war after bioware takeover, where you get xfaction cheating running rife.. The only games that got it truly right - daoc itself, both planetsides, early war went very hard on faction lock. - Or you don't copy paste DOAC, come up with your own design that takes all that is greta about a TES game and all that is great about 3 faction PvP and combine them.
It's a price they pay to make the game work. - No it is a price the TESO game pay for the lack of any kind of imagination in game design.
Of course what they should do is copy daoc more and have coop servers with no pvp where you can go anywhere and group / guild with anyone, and ffa pvp servers where guilds claim keeps. - Agree (well having different servers not to copying DAOC).
because the games lead designers are stuck in the past and cannot come up with any new ideas. They have on rose colored glasses and actually believe the game they are basing it off of was great...so great it seems they think it will apply successfully to anything even though history proves them wrong.
::sigh:: Tamriel is huge, and there are lots of places a person can travel and explore, but we're going to be forbidden to explore the land becuase the developers want to recreate DAoC? This maybe the one reason I will not even look at this game now. Stupid.
you'll just need to make more than one character. think of it as 3 ES games in one.
No. I just won't play their game.
Then don't, I mean there not gonna be able to please everybody some people are gonna like it some are not....
The new RVR Camelot Unchained is on the horizon maybe that is what your looking for then.......
This is the problem. All of the DAOC people will have Camelot Unchained and now TES. TES is a large IP that has nothing to do with DAOC...why force it on fans of TES? I don't feel sorry for DAOC people as they will have another game. I hope it isn't too late for the TES people to remove the invisible gates (or whatever they are going to use to block people). Screw PVP immersion. That's really the only reason they are doing this.
Edit: I can't believe PvP fans are defending their decision to gut open world PvP. Really the only people that should be defending this are the DAOC fans.
DAOC people and TES people... why can't we be both?
Mael - no the two camps I described both think they are "true tes fans", even though their views on what tes is as a mmo are diametrically opposed.
Some tes fans see the imaginary tes mmo in their heads as a pure pve game.
Some tes fans see the imaginary tes mmo one their heads as a ffa pvp sandbox.
Can't please both. Pleasing just one would lead to low sales for the budget in the second case (think eve) or very low sales in the first case (think vanguard)
DAOC people and TES people... why can't we be both?
Well TES has millions of fans and DAOC has hundreds of thousands but who knows what the subset is? Would you gamble on the figure? The gamble is that there are more DOAC or DAOC+TES fans then there are TES fans or TES + MMO fans.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Mael - no the two camps I described both think they are "true tes fans", even though their views on what tes is as a mmo are diametrically opposed.
Some tes fans see the imaginary tes mmo in their heads as a pure pve game.
Some tes fans see the imaginary tes mmo one their heads as a ffa pvp sandbox.
Can't please both. Pleasing just one would lead to low sales for the budget in the second case (think eve) or very low sales in the first case (think vanguard)
Love your logic.
Take a small group, add their number to another small group and suddenly you have a really huge group, far larger then the total of the 2 smaller groups combined.
I know using fancy math you can prove that 1+1 does not equal 2 but I am pretty sure the logic doen't apply to MMORPG's.
Well look at the "true tes fans" in all these whine about rvr threads.
Half of them think "true tes" involves no pvp whatsoever or some crappy swg like voluntary flagging system, including the rather silly suggestion of voluntarily flagging yourself to be a pick pocket victim
The other half think it should be a ffa gankfest where you can break in other players houses and steal all their stuff.
Truth is SKYRIM IS NOT A MMO. Everyone has their own imaginary tes mmo in their head. There is no such thing as "mmo just like tes", as that would either be a) not a mmo, b) a sub standard cooprpg pretending to be a mmo (see swtor) or c) matching the imaginary ideals of just one group of "true tes fans", which is the polar opposite of what other "true tes fans" want.
They took ideas from daoc because it occupies a middle ground, its one of a very rare group of mmos that cater to pvp, pve and crafting EQUALLY.
Originally posted by ShakyMo They took ideas from daoc because it occupies a middle ground, its one of a very rare group of mmos that cater to pvp, pve and crafting EQUALLY.
::sigh:: Tamriel is huge, and there are lots of places a person can travel and explore, but we're going to be forbidden to explore the land becuase the developers want to recreate DAoC? This maybe the one reason I will not even look at this game now. Stupid.
you'll just need to make more than one character. think of it as 3 ES games in one.
No. I just won't play their game.
not every game is for everyone.
You're right, but of all the games to put this in, this is not the one. Also, even in WOW, we could travel the world...the whole world. Even on PvP servers, you couldn't attack players of the other faction outright in their own lands and hurt them. They had to attack you first before you could do damage back. Are you telling me that a game from 2003 has better game mechanics than a game being designed for 2013?
Sadly I disagree. it is the developers game, your choice to play it or not but it is not your choice to demand what you want.
The devs know full well thery may alienate alot of players but they do this knowing the gameplay elements they are going for are far more important then the revenue lost and for this I applaud the F**K for them because not many game studios nowadays pass up potential revenue for the sake of keeping their game pure and immaculate.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
DAOC people and TES people... why can't we be both?
Well TES has millions of fans and DAOC has hundreds of thousands but who knows what the subset is? Would you gamble on the figure? The gamble is that there are more DOAC or DAOC+TES fans then there are TES fans or TES + MMO fans.
Stil ldoesn't mean we can't be both.
TES is stepping in the MMO realm anyways. There not a single IP who's game went from a different genre in the MMO genre and it's gameplay remained anyhing similar to it's roots.
Originally posted by bcbully This will be the last AAA w/o Wpvp.
OMG that is hilarious. You actually think World PvP is such a strong selling point for MMO's. LOL I have news to you, the fans of world PvP are perhaps the smallest market in the MMO genre right behind the loving sandbox model of gaming.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Comments
Thats what I'm getting.
I can't see me getting the single player TES experience from ESO, regardless of what MMO they decided to slap TES onto. They're two different types of games for a start.
Just hoping it's a fun enjoyable game with lots of replay value.
funny thing is, in these threads you seem to be the only person who every mentions EQ or SWG. People say
"TES has x feature and there is zero reason why TESO cannot have it so why did they change it
and you seem to read
"TES has x feature, SWG also has x feature, I want TESO to be SWG"
People want certain features to be like TES games because.....they like the TES games not becuase another MMO has them and they want TESO to be like that MMO.
Stop projecting!
Not speaking for everyone but personally I don't see TESO having to be drastically different from TES. There are obvious things that need to be addressed but my main problem with their design is that things have changed that didn't need to be. Race locking factions are totally uncessessary. Restricting exploration is totally uneccessary. Both could have been achieved by having factions that are unrelated to specific races allowing anyone to join, thus removing the need for border restrictions.
The problem for me isn't that they had to change things to make TES work as TESO. It is that they changed things that didn't need changing and for no apparent reason other then they wanted to have DAOC RvR combat. They basically forgot to design a new system and just copid DAOC....irrespective of if it would work or if it would have adverse effects on the rest of the game.
You've got another group who thought it would be a 99% pve game like EQ or swg.
They can't satisfy both camps.
So what do they do. Well they could go with camp 1 but they wouldn't sell that much and would be looking at eve levels of players, which given the budget wouldn't be acceptable.
Or they could go pure pve and have even less players (remember vanguard)
The majority of players like both pve and pvp, but don't like pvp interfering with their pve.
So they have to have pvp, but not "forced" pvp. That leaves them 2 options, take a wow style approach and ghetto pvp off in meaningless mini games, which would really piss off the first group, and well the last thing we need in the mmo space is yet another bloody wow clone.
Or they take a daoc approach, which at least has some emergent behaviour in pvp so would annoy the first camp less and the second camp can still completely avoid pvp.
But history shows if you go the daoc approach you need hard factions, you can't have wooly "soloutions" where people can be chums in pve - tsw, Ao, Aoc culture servers even gw2 sort of. Or where people can have alts on the same server of differing factions - swtor, wow, rift, war after bioware takeover, where you get xfaction cheating running rife.. The only games that got it truly right - daoc itself, both planetsides, early war went very hard on faction lock.
It's a price they pay to make the game work.
Of course what they should do is copy daoc more and have coop servers with no pvp where you can go anywhere and group / guild with anyone, and ffa pvp servers where guilds claim keeps.
My $0.02.
You all want freedom of exploration, in a game that has three factions at war with one another.
Try being Lebanese and getting into Israel. Or North Korean and getting into South Korea.
It's nigh on impossible. Reason being, these places are at war with one another.
Put that element into a game and you have factions which restrict your ability to sneak into the others lands, because you are at war with them.
Now, I see this as sensible designing, however, I don't agree with it in principle.
Personally, I'd love the ability to sneak into another factions land and apply diplomacy or subterfuge/sabotage. I mean, TESO will have Sneak as an active ability. Hopefully the Speech skill tree is there as well. It'd make sense if any game could apply mechanics like this to RvR PvP, TESO should be that game!
(For any devs reading this: imagine having a character have a diplomacy quest hub in the capitol, which requires you sneaking into another factions land, finding a specific npc, conducting speech check, and gaining information your faction can then use against either other factions (map reveals, weakened supplies, etc) or against the 4th faction (Imperials))
I think the one saving grace to this seperated faction design would be if the content available to all three factions is unique.
The dungeons the Daggerfall experience between levels 20-30 are nothing like what the Ebonhearts experience, and the Aldmeri don't have any dungeons of a similar theme till level 45-50.
That could be a saving grace - Design on good, decent, individual gameplay, so that all three factions, with alts, don't feel like your playing quests on repeat.
I have more arguments I can make both for and against, sensible responses to my initial $0.02 might get me to voice 'till we hit $0.10.
This is the problem. All of the DAOC people will have Camelot Unchained and now TES. TES is a large IP that has nothing to do with DAOC...why force it on fans of TES? I don't feel sorry for DAOC people as they will have another game. I hope it isn't too late for the TES people to remove the invisible gates (or whatever they are going to use to block people). Screw PVP immersion. That's really the only reason they are doing this.
Edit: I can't believe PvP fans are defending their decision to gut open world PvP. Really the only people that should be defending this are the DAOC fans.
Sorry, just added in yellow but good post
DAOC people and TES people... why can't we be both?
LOL so even it it turns out to be the best game in the world you just wont play ?
Thats very odd.. and kind of silly really..
Some tes fans see the imaginary tes mmo in their heads as a pure pve game.
Some tes fans see the imaginary tes mmo one their heads as a ffa pvp sandbox.
Can't please both. Pleasing just one would lead to low sales for the budget in the second case (think eve) or very low sales in the first case (think vanguard)
I play a good 20+ hours a week tes (because all current mmo pve is shite), with ps2 as my mmo.
I find it somewhat galling to-be called bot a tes fan by people who think tes features little angry blokes with huge beards.
really? Looks like Toy Story to me
Well TES has millions of fans and DAOC has hundreds of thousands but who knows what the subset is? Would you gamble on the figure? The gamble is that there are more DOAC or DAOC+TES fans then there are TES fans or TES + MMO fans.
Love your logic.
Take a small group, add their number to another small group and suddenly you have a really huge group, far larger then the total of the 2 smaller groups combined.
I know using fancy math you can prove that 1+1 does not equal 2 but I am pretty sure the logic doen't apply to MMORPG's.
Half of them think "true tes" involves no pvp whatsoever or some crappy swg like voluntary flagging system, including the rather silly suggestion of voluntarily flagging yourself to be a pick pocket victim
The other half think it should be a ffa gankfest where you can break in other players houses and steal all their stuff.
Truth is SKYRIM IS NOT A MMO. Everyone has their own imaginary tes mmo in their head. There is no such thing as "mmo just like tes", as that would either be a) not a mmo, b) a sub standard cooprpg pretending to be a mmo (see swtor) or c) matching the imaginary ideals of just one group of "true tes fans", which is the polar opposite of what other "true tes fans" want.
They took ideas from daoc because it occupies a middle ground, its one of a very rare group of mmos that cater to pvp, pve and crafting EQUALLY.
Hence it's onging and continued success....
Sadly I disagree. it is the developers game, your choice to play it or not but it is not your choice to demand what you want.
The devs know full well thery may alienate alot of players but they do this knowing the gameplay elements they are going for are far more important then the revenue lost and for this I applaud the F**K for them because not many game studios nowadays pass up potential revenue for the sake of keeping their game pure and immaculate.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Stil ldoesn't mean we can't be both.
TES is stepping in the MMO realm anyways. There not a single IP who's game went from a different genre in the MMO genre and it's gameplay remained anyhing similar to it's roots.
OMG that is hilarious. You actually think World PvP is such a strong selling point for MMO's. LOL I have news to you, the fans of world PvP are perhaps the smallest market in the MMO genre right behind the loving sandbox model of gaming.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!