These so-called "D&D purists" should probably think for a moment what D&D is actually about.
You think it's about the "complexity"? The classes? The alignments? Turn-based combat? The specific list of skills each class gets? Ability scores? Feats? What?
If you take any one of these mechanics and replace it, you won't have changed the core of the game at all. We can change the setting of a 3.5 campaign from Forgotten Realms to Star Wars, and you know what? Even without the same classes, skills, feats, and other mechanics, it still feels an awful lot like D&D. We could play AD&D, and... yeah, it still feels like D&D.
We can completely change the rules of combat (change the way dice are rolled, replace the dice with some other mechanism, play a physical game instead), and still retain that D&D feel. Is the transition to realtime really a factor? Surely a game can feel like D&D without turn-based combat.
The core of tabletop is in two things: dungeon-crawling and storytelling. By level 10, Neverwinter has more dungeon-crawling than any other MMO I can think of, and with fairly well-written quests, scripted instances, and, most importantly, the Foundry (which, using dialogue options and trigger items, will allow an incredible amount of complexity), I think the storytelling will be quite strong.
Back when Turbine launched DDO , one of biggest complains and failures with original D&D crowd (the one they hoped to win over) was the action combat nature of the game.
You see D&D is tactical turn based game , while DDO was one of the first "action" MMOs
Yet compared to Neverwinter DDO is complex as EVE is to Hello Kitty Online
Infact Neverwinter feels like unwanted crappy imposter to DDO , even when DDO is kind of crappy itself.
Game complexity is laughable. Its based loosely on 4th ed D&D , but buchered beyond recognition. Simplified , dumbed down , reduced and than simplified again.
Its more like TERA but with less skills.
So if complexity is not there how is graphic ?
There is something wrong with rendering engine of all Cryptic games. And Neverwinter suffers from same. Everything seems fuzzy and unclear with abundance of bloom and fog (perhaps in attempt to hide the crappy graphic)
Game looks ok in motion , especially combat animations - but just dont stop to look at it closer (3d models are laughable)
Foundry projects are ok - but even now its obvious how limited they will be - simply by the fact that game lacks even complexity of DDO. You play one linear mission , you played them all.
Not all is grim however...
Writting in the game is quite good. Lore is closely following the Spellplague Forgotten realms (if you like it)
And lets face it
At least it will be F2P
Shame such awesome franchise will be dragged trough mud
again another person with an OPINION and stating some game sucks, boring etc without anything to back up their claim. Welcome to my block list.
again another person with an OPINION and stating some game sucks, boring etc without anything to back up their claim. Welcome to my block list.
Anything to back up the claim ? I jrote half page of reasons in my original post.
And as for identify scrolls - Again , rumor is they will be removed from ingame vendors and put to the item shop.
So far any exceptional quality item (Green and above) , basically any item worth equiping or selling to another player needs id scroll. Only at this beta weekend i found over 30 such items , while i found (and got from quest) 25 id scrolls.
Is this not the same like for example chest keys in GW2 ?
You get them from quests and world completion. Yet in whole time i played the game I got around 15. In my bank i have over 40 chests. Now in Gw2 chests are just convinience items.
Here we are talking actual equipment you can not use or even compare until identified.
Perfect way to earn money trough shop.
But I can not blame them. After all the game is free and quests are not locked.
This however doesnt make the game any worse or better. Its still awful rendition of D&D.
Back when Turbine launched DDO , one of biggest complains and failures with original D&D crowd (the one they hoped to win over) was the action combat nature of the game.
You see D&D is tactical turn based game , while DDO was one of the first "action" MMOs
Yet compared to Neverwinter DDO is complex as EVE is to Hello Kitty Online
Infact Neverwinter feels like unwanted crappy imposter to DDO , even when DDO is kind of crappy itself.
Game complexity is laughable. Its based loosely on 4th ed D&D , but buchered beyond recognition. Simplified , dumbed down , reduced and than simplified again.
Its more like TERA but with less skills.
So if complexity is not there how is graphic ?
There is something wrong with rendering engine of all Cryptic games. And Neverwinter suffers from same. Everything seems fuzzy and unclear with abundance of bloom and fog (perhaps in attempt to hide the crappy graphic)
Game looks ok in motion , especially combat animations - but just dont stop to look at it closer (3d models are laughable)
Foundry projects are ok - but even now its obvious how limited they will be - simply by the fact that game lacks even complexity of DDO. You play one linear mission , you played them all.
Not all is grim however...
Writting in the game is quite good. Lore is closely following the Spellplague Forgotten realms (if you like it)
And lets face it
At least it will be F2P
Shame such awesome franchise will be dragged trough mud
I am also an oldschool D&D fan and MMO veteran. My review of the game is more or less exactly the same as yours. The Tera fans may enjoy this, the D&D fans will want to off themselves.
The core of tabletop is in two things: dungeon-crawling and storytelling. By level 10, Neverwinter has more dungeon-crawling than any other MMO I can think of, and with fairly well-written quests, scripted instances, and, most importantly, the Foundry (which, using dialogue options and trigger items, will allow an incredible amount of complexity), I think the storytelling will be quite strong.
If you believe what you have experienced in neverwinter thus far is analogous to table top D&D "dungeon crawling and storytelling" then your DM always took it easy on you. Also, the unlimited "reroll your stats" at character creation was kind of a let down.
You are correct in one point. The foundry may be the saving grace of this game. There will be a group of people who will create content that is extremely challenging and engaging. Requiring people to play thier chosen role to its maximum. Atleast lets hope this happens.
Back when Turbine launched DDO , one of biggest complains and failures with original D&D crowd (the one they hoped to win over) was the action combat nature of the game.
You see D&D is tactical turn based game , while DDO was one of the first "action" MMOs
Yet compared to Neverwinter DDO is complex as EVE is to Hello Kitty Online
Infact Neverwinter feels like unwanted crappy imposter to DDO , even when DDO is kind of crappy itself.
Game complexity is laughable. Its based loosely on 4th ed D&D , but buchered beyond recognition. Simplified , dumbed down , reduced and than simplified again.
Its more like TERA but with less skills.
So if complexity is not there how is graphic ?
There is something wrong with rendering engine of all Cryptic games. And Neverwinter suffers from same. Everything seems fuzzy and unclear with abundance of bloom and fog (perhaps in attempt to hide the crappy graphic)
Game looks ok in motion , especially combat animations - but just dont stop to look at it closer (3d models are laughable)
Foundry projects are ok - but even now its obvious how limited they will be - simply by the fact that game lacks even complexity of DDO. You play one linear mission , you played them all.
Not all is grim however...
Writting in the game is quite good. Lore is closely following the Spellplague Forgotten realms (if you like it)
And lets face it
At least it will be F2P
Shame such awesome franchise will be dragged trough mud
Well, you kind of stated your problem in the title.
"Old School D&D fan" when the game isn't based off of Old School D&D.
Taking the game for what it is, it's pretty good. People with unrealistic expectations for a free to play MMO based on a modified 4th edition D&D are going to make posts like yours.
And for the record, if you played Neverwinter and DDO you know for a fact that Neverwinter is great deal ahead of DDO in every aspect lol. The foundry looks extremely robust and most are still waiting to get their hands on it, not many are allowed access to the foundry yet.
By the way, this was from an old school D&D fan and MMO veteran, I simply formed my opinions of a game while taking into account the number of variables surrounding it. If they had said this was based on 3rd edition I would be calling foul, but basing it off of 4th edition was a good call and they have stuck fairly true to it. 4th edition lends itself better to a graphical game a great deal better than 3rd edition could.
Back when Turbine launched DDO , one of biggest complains and failures with original D&D crowd (the one they hoped to win over) was the action combat nature of the game.
You see D&D is tactical turn based game , while DDO was one of the first "action" MMOs
Yet compared to Neverwinter DDO is complex as EVE is to Hello Kitty Online
Infact Neverwinter feels like unwanted crappy imposter to DDO , even when DDO is kind of crappy itself.
Game complexity is laughable. Its based loosely on 4th ed D&D , but buchered beyond recognition. Simplified , dumbed down , reduced and than simplified again.
Its more like TERA but with less skills.
So if complexity is not there how is graphic ?
There is something wrong with rendering engine of all Cryptic games. And Neverwinter suffers from same. Everything seems fuzzy and unclear with abundance of bloom and fog (perhaps in attempt to hide the crappy graphic)
Game looks ok in motion , especially combat animations - but just dont stop to look at it closer (3d models are laughable)
Foundry projects are ok - but even now its obvious how limited they will be - simply by the fact that game lacks even complexity of DDO. You play one linear mission , you played them all.
Not all is grim however...
Writting in the game is quite good. Lore is closely following the Spellplague Forgotten realms (if you like it)
And lets face it
At least it will be F2P
Shame such awesome franchise will be dragged trough mud
Your opinion. Mine is completely different. I think the game is amazing and if the devs hold their promise to deliver all the 4th edition classes in a routine fashion its going ot make for a lot of replayability. The Foundry is nothing short of amazing and even with the limited missions availble jsut wait till the old scool NWN modding community gets their hand on it. Which according to the folks over at NWNPodcast there is alot of modders anxious to get started.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
The core of tabletop is in two things: dungeon-crawling and storytelling. By level 10, Neverwinter has more dungeon-crawling than any other MMO I can think of, and with fairly well-written quests, scripted instances, and, most importantly, the Foundry (which, using dialogue options and trigger items, will allow an incredible amount of complexity), I think the storytelling will be quite strong.
If you believe what you have experienced in neverwinter thus far is analogous to table top D&D "dungeon crawling and storytelling" then your DM always took it easy on you. Also, the unlimited "reroll your stats" at character creation was kind of a let down.
You are correct in one point. The foundry may be the saving grace of this game. There will be a group of people who will create content that is extremely challenging and engaging. Requiring people to play thier chosen role to its maximum. Atleast lets hope this happens.
First the reroll your stat is jsut a choice between 3 presets. Not really a roll your stat system but its there to give the illusion of a D&D game. Secondly Ive been playing D&D since 1982 and at no point in my almsot 40 year history of tabletop gaming have I ever played a rigid role structred game. A good DM will use the rules as a base and build uopon somethign to make the game more suited to the gamers playing.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I am also an oldschool D&D fan and MMO veteran. My review of the game is more or less exactly the same as yours. The Tera fans may enjoy this, the D&D fans will want to off themselves.
D&D, MMO and DDO veteran here, the game is good, not awesome, not the 2nd Coming of Ultima Online/Ascheon's Call/take your pick, but it is a good game, the combat feels weighty, the story seems decent, the only thing I really dislike about it is my laptop's independent graphics card is not supported for some reason and it causes allot of dropped FPS in cities XD.
Now to the D&D purists need I remind you chaps that D&D 3.5 and below is impossible to recreate in a video game? No Neverwinter 1, Neverwinter 2, Baldur's Gate, etc, are not 1:1 recreations hell for the most part now when I go back to Neverwinter 1 or 2 (let alone Baldur's Gate) I am hit by that jolt of nostalgia 3 seconds before I remember the fucked up control scheme (when compared to today's games), the mind numbing grind and sometimes retarded AI so you guys might wanna take off your rose tinted glasses, step off your high horses and stop bashing a game you will obviously not play for not being what you would want to play (which would be a game few D&D fans would actually bother playing, why? can you imagine a group of more than 4 people taking turns doing actions in a dungeon, blocking each other off, getting in each other's way, etc?).
Neverwinter is a good game for what it is and what it is is a refined and quite enhanced version of World of Warcraft in a D&D setting with a better storyline and the ability to make your own stories and dungeons.
PS: Not a founder, Hell between EVE and Heart of the Swarm + a few other titles coming out this year I might not even get to play Neverwinter that much if at all.
These so-called "D&D purists" should probably think for a moment what D&D is actually about.
You think it's about the "complexity"? The classes? The alignments? Turn-based combat? The specific list of skills each class gets? Ability scores? Feats? What?
If you take any one of these mechanics and replace it, you won't have changed the core of the game at all. We can change the setting of a 3.5 campaign from Forgotten Realms to Star Wars, and you know what? Even without the same classes, skills, feats, and other mechanics, it still feels an awful lot like D&D. We could play AD&D, and... yeah, it still feels like D&D.
We can completely change the rules of combat (change the way dice are rolled, replace the dice with some other mechanism, play a physical game instead), and still retain that D&D feel. Is the transition to realtime really a factor? Surely a game can feel like D&D without turn-based combat.
The core of tabletop is in two things: dungeon-crawling and storytelling. By level 10, Neverwinter has more dungeon-crawling than any other MMO I can think of, and with fairly well-written quests, scripted instances, and, most importantly, the Foundry (which, using dialogue options and trigger items, will allow an incredible amount of complexity), I think the storytelling will be quite strong.
Well said and it is because of those 2 reasons this game has grown ever so loved by me in such a short amount of time. The same can't be said for any other game even those I hyped because they all had the one serious flaw. No endgame. Already in Beta NWO is poised to strike joy in the hearts of pure D&D enthusiasts. Those 2 things are what I have longed for in an MMO for so long and none of the games in the last 14 years (since Asheron's Call) has given me what I crave, even those I enjoyed while leveling up.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Based on 4th edtion, based losely on 4th edition...thats a big diffrence just in this line.!!!
I haven't played any of the betas , ea I haven't played the game yet..but just by looking at vids and reading forums..I come to this conclusion, the game seems fun, but ..D&D ?
From what I can tell, they have used a few names here and there , spells and some advanced class names, thats how far the resemblence to D&D 4th edition goes with Neverwinter. Thats a very small resemblence..
Or is there actually "more" things that are by the D&D 4th ed rules ?
Lore is another thing however, If the lore is good ...well then It can be a great game
The dungeons are(from what I have seen) ..mostly super linear "corridors" with a boss in the middle and a boss in the end..Is that so ?
I cant come to my sences why a developer would want to negate a large chunk of players when creating an IP like this, The D&D crowd may aswell go back to DDO , It's a far superior game , In a D&D sence , than this one..Not saying this can't be fun..but ..
Wait, DDO wasn't considered great? I thought it was a very entertaining game and did a good job bringing DnD to an Online environment. Sure, it wasn't fully fleshed out but it did a lot of components nicely in terms of 'cloaking' it into the gameplay while making it relevant which for me is a lot better then sticking it in the front lines.
Still, I do have to dislike on the fact neverwinter seems to shy away from a lot of things, and considering its taking 4th edition which, lets face it, is considered to be a very 'meh' playset (thus the popularity of pathfinder over it as the 'real' 4th edition of sorts) it kind of makes me not really expect all that much out of it to begin with. The 'locking' of the classes is probably my biggest gripe on it and I really am disapointed with it, whats with these horrible decisions of cutting out customization lately anyways?
Based on 4th edtion, based losely on 4th edition...thats a big diffrence just in this line.!!!
I haven't played any of the betas , ea I haven't played the game yet..but just by looking at vids and reading forums..I come to this conclusion, the game seems fun, but ..D&D ?
From what I can tell, they have used a few names here and there , spells and some advanced class names, thats how far the resemblence to D&D 4th edition goes with Neverwinter. Thats a very small resemblence..
Or is there actually "more" things that are by the D&D 4th ed rules ?
Lore is another thing however, If the lore is good ...well then It can be a great game
The dungeons are(from what I have seen) ..mostly super linear "corridors" with a boss in the middle and a boss in the end..Is that so ?
I cant come to my sences why a developer would want to negate a large chunk of players when creating an IP like this, The D&D crowd may aswell go back to DDO , It's a far superior game , In a D&D sence , than this one..Not saying this can't be fun..but ..
Nah, DDO lacked one integral thing from ever making it an actual D&D game. Player created content. Neverwinter has better graphics, better combat, unlimited content through the foundry, and uses a modified version of 4th edition which translates better to a graphical game than 3rd edition could.
1) When getting a license for a D&D game you have to use the edition Wizards of the Coast want you to use. In this case it was 4th edition. When DDO came out it was 3.5.
2) 4th edition actually sucks for a table top game, but that is mainly because they targeted the MMO crowd with 4th edition.
3) The dailies, the encounter powers, etc. it all comes from 4th edition. The math from 4th edition is there just tucked away in the background. The lore is there. The classes are from 4th edition and they have stated plans to eventually have them all in game. It is 4th edition even if its modified a bit.
4) It allows you to do what DDO doesn't, create content which is a core feature in D&D. You can actually take and develop content for your friends, have them play it and even play it with them. Not only will they be able to play the campaigns you've made but so will thousands of others.
Neverwinter is closer to D&D than DDO could ever hope to be due to the foundry. Even without the foundry Neverwinter sticks closer to 4th edition than DDO does to 3rd or 3.5. To be fair though, 4th edition again was made with the MMO crowd in mind and translated to a graphical game a great deal better.
Brush up on 4th edition and play a campaign or two, play Neverwinters beta, then come back and tell me it's not based on 4th edition or that it doesn't have very much in common with the current D&D.
Real D&D has been dead for many years and is never coming back in video game form.
Now if you look at Never winter as a a diablo like action RPG in a D&D lore setting then it's actually a pretty decent game.
Except that its not. Its not Diablo - random maps / mobs / drops
And as far as i see , every loot that drops needs to be identified - and id scrolls will be sold at item shop.
F2P playing will be expensive
....not if you don't buy anything.
You get use to Lobotomist. He intentionally leaves things out to try and make something sound bad and some times he outright lies, though that could just be misinformation he gained by listening to others rather than playing himself. I will assume it's the latter.
1) No, not every piece of loot that drops needs to be identified. Pieces that needed identification don't drop often.
2) I had 20+ ID scrolls by level 10 that I got as drops. Players will also be selling ID scrolls.
3) You can buy ID scrolls with Astral Diamonds, you can get up to 24,000 astral diamonds a day simply by praying to your diety once an hour lol.
4) You can sale your Astral Diamonds for Zen so...
Based on 4th edtion, based losely on 4th edition...thats a big diffrence just in this line.!!!
I haven't played any of the betas , ea I haven't played the game yet..but just by looking at vids and reading forums..I come to this conclusion, the game seems fun, but ..D&D ?
From what I can tell, they have used a few names here and there , spells and some advanced class names, thats how far the resemblence to D&D 4th edition goes with Neverwinter. Thats a very small resemblence..
Or is there actually "more" things that are by the D&D 4th ed rules ?
Lore is another thing however, If the lore is good ...well then It can be a great game
The dungeons are(from what I have seen) ..mostly super linear "corridors" with a boss in the middle and a boss in the end..Is that so ?
I cant come to my sences why a developer would want to negate a large chunk of players when creating an IP like this, The D&D crowd may aswell go back to DDO , It's a far superior game , In a D&D sence , than this one..Not saying this can't be fun..but ..
Nah, DDO lacked one integral thing from ever making it an actual D&D game. Player created content. Neverwinter has better graphics, better combat, unlimited content through the foundry, and uses a modified version of 4th edition which translates better to a graphical game than 3rd edition could.
1) When getting a license for a D&D game you have to use the edition Wizards of the Coast want you to use. In this case it was 4th edition. When DDO came out it was 3.5.
2) 4th edition actually sucks for a table top game, but that is mainly because they targeted the MMO crowd with 4th edition.
3) The dailies, the encounter powers, etc. it all comes from 4th edition. The math from 4th edition is there just tucked away in the background. The lore is there. The classes are from 4th edition and they have stated plans to eventually have them all in game. It is 4th edition even if its modified a bit.
4) It allows you to do what DDO doesn't, create content which is a core feature in D&D. You can actually take and develop content for your friends, have them play it and even play it with them. Not only will they be able to play the campaigns you've made but so will thousands of others.
Neverwinter is closer to D&D than DDO could ever hope to be due to the foundry. Even without the foundry Neverwinter sticks closer to 4th edition than DDO does to 3rd or 3.5. To be fair though, 4th edition again was made with the MMO crowd in mind and translated to a graphical game a great deal better.
Brush up on 4th edition and play a campaign or two, play Neverwinters beta, then come back and tell me it's not based on 4th edition or that it doesn't have very much in common with the current D&D.
Yes I agree there is the foundry, but NOTHING in that statement will be true aslong as long as 90 percent of the dungeons created in the foundry is bad, sure they will be marked by a popularity system , but still..The IDEA behind the foundry is great..
Not to say that DDO can't release their own version of the foudry thou
But from looking at the dungeons created by the dev's in NW, don't you count them ? They should by my standards atleast be better then the average dungeon that is created in the foundry, and as far as I can tell, they are a linear fair straight from A-B
The Dungeons and adventures in DDO is mostly top notch, often with multiple ways to solve the dungeon in creative ways..
Your point 2....can you please link me to an article where developers talk about the 4th edition was created for MMO's rather than what it is, a P&P rpg.. Seems really odd if they created this ruleset as a paper copy to some computer roleplaying rules..
Again, you have "names" that are taken from the rules, is that enough to call it based of 4th edition rules..even the daylies are not a dayly , Its a skill on a few minutes cooldown..
damit. all i really want out of an mmo is 3.5 in an open Faerun world. but it will never happen.
its amazing b/c DDO has trouble and this one will probably as well. developers will never want to touch another DnD game again.
the issue? no one has made a *real* DnD game that the actual DnD lifers want to play.
3.5
open world
Faerun
and while making it may be difficult, the list is pretty short and pretty simple.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Based on 4th edtion, based losely on 4th edition...thats a big diffrence just in this line.!!!
I haven't played any of the betas , ea I haven't played the game yet..but just by looking at vids and reading forums..I come to this conclusion, the game seems fun, but ..D&D ?
From what I can tell, they have used a few names here and there , spells and some advanced class names, thats how far the resemblence to D&D 4th edition goes with Neverwinter. Thats a very small resemblence..
Or is there actually "more" things that are by the D&D 4th ed rules ?
Lore is another thing however, If the lore is good ...well then It can be a great game
The dungeons are(from what I have seen) ..mostly super linear "corridors" with a boss in the middle and a boss in the end..Is that so ?
I cant come to my sences why a developer would want to negate a large chunk of players when creating an IP like this, The D&D crowd may aswell go back to DDO , It's a far superior game , In a D&D sence , than this one..Not saying this can't be fun..but ..
Nah, DDO lacked one integral thing from ever making it an actual D&D game. Player created content. Neverwinter has better graphics, better combat, unlimited content through the foundry, and uses a modified version of 4th edition which translates better to a graphical game than 3rd edition could.
1) When getting a license for a D&D game you have to use the edition Wizards of the Coast want you to use. In this case it was 4th edition. When DDO came out it was 3.5.
2) 4th edition actually sucks for a table top game, but that is mainly because they targeted the MMO crowd with 4th edition.
3) The dailies, the encounter powers, etc. it all comes from 4th edition. The math from 4th edition is there just tucked away in the background. The lore is there. The classes are from 4th edition and they have stated plans to eventually have them all in game. It is 4th edition even if its modified a bit.
4) It allows you to do what DDO doesn't, create content which is a core feature in D&D. You can actually take and develop content for your friends, have them play it and even play it with them. Not only will they be able to play the campaigns you've made but so will thousands of others.
Neverwinter is closer to D&D than DDO could ever hope to be due to the foundry. Even without the foundry Neverwinter sticks closer to 4th edition than DDO does to 3rd or 3.5. To be fair though, 4th edition again was made with the MMO crowd in mind and translated to a graphical game a great deal better.
Brush up on 4th edition and play a campaign or two, play Neverwinters beta, then come back and tell me it's not based on 4th edition or that it doesn't have very much in common with the current D&D.
Yes I agree there is the foundry, but NOTHING in that statement will be true aslong as long as 90 percent of the dungeons created in the foundry is bad, sure they will be marked by a popularity system , but still..The IDEA behind the foundry is great..
Not to say that DDO can't release their own version of the foudry thou
But from looking at the dungeons created by the dev's in NW, don't you count them ? They should by my standards atleast be better then the average dungeon that is created in the foundry, and as far as I can tell, they are a linear fair straight from A-B
The Dungeons and adventures in DDO is mostly top notch, often with multiple ways to solve the dungeon in creative ways..
Your point 2....can you please link me to an article where developers talk about the 4th edition was created for MMO's rather than what it is, a P&P rpg.. Seems really odd if they created this ruleset as a paper copy to some computer roleplaying rules..
Again, you have "names" that are taken from the rules, is that enough to call it based of 4th edition rules..even the daylies are not a dayly , Its a skill on a few minutes cooldown..
DDO wasn't designed in a way that would allow player made content and aside from that interest has wained to much to warrant the development cost. Top that off with Neverwinter online coming out before they could even begin development or implement it taking even more players away and the answer is No, DDO couldn't do their own version of the foundry.
I found the dungeons in DDO to be very lack luster as did everyone I played D&D with online and offline. We stuck with NWN for our graphical D&D play time.
As far as point 2, if you actually have any experience with 4th ed then you'd know it's basically an MMO in pen and paper form. No need to link articles or anything, just google it. You will see the same thing said most places you look lol.
No, not just names but this is part of where the modification comes in. Pen and Paper rules focus on real time (Sort of) while MMO's focus on game time. Instead of refreshing a daily power each game day you have a "bar" that fills up as you fight. Is that enough fo to say it uses nothing more than the same name? The power does the exact same thing, it's use is simply buffed a bit due to the nature of an MMO which plays faster. I mean, sure if you are taking turns and a dungeon run can make up the entire gaming session using a power once a day is fine, but when you are doing 3 or 4 dungeons with real time game play doesn't it make sense for that to change?
Okay, so lets ignore the fact that all the powers and abilities and such function the same as does the math. Lets say even though everything does the same thing even with the slight modifications to usage we won't count that.
Does this also negate the companions, the lore, the ability to create dungeons and campaigns?
I mean how much like D&D does it have to be before it's considered D&D? Should the screen be nothing more than a hand, dice, pencil, and a piece of paper?
D&D 4th ed is clearly present in Neverwinter, that isn't deniable by anyone that has played Neverwinter or is remotely familiar with 4th ed.
Back when Turbine launched DDO , one of biggest complains and failures with original D&D crowd (the one they hoped to win over) was the action combat nature of the game.
You see D&D is tactical turn based game , while DDO was one of the first "action" MMOs
Assuming that's so; wouldn't MMOs (not known for being turn-based) be the very worst place to seek it?
Who do you blame for this basic logical interrupt? The game designers, or the players?
Based on 4th edtion, based losely on 4th edition...thats a big diffrence just in this line.!!!
I haven't played any of the betas , ea I haven't played the game yet..but just by looking at vids and reading forums..I come to this conclusion, the game seems fun, but ..D&D ?
From what I can tell, they have used a few names here and there , spells and some advanced class names, thats how far the resemblence to D&D 4th edition goes with Neverwinter. Thats a very small resemblence..
Or is there actually "more" things that are by the D&D 4th ed rules ?
Lore is another thing however, If the lore is good ...well then It can be a great game
The dungeons are(from what I have seen) ..mostly super linear "corridors" with a boss in the middle and a boss in the end..Is that so ?
I cant come to my sences why a developer would want to negate a large chunk of players when creating an IP like this, The D&D crowd may aswell go back to DDO , It's a far superior game , In a D&D sence , than this one..Not saying this can't be fun..but ..
Nah, DDO lacked one integral thing from ever making it an actual D&D game. Player created content. Neverwinter has better graphics, better combat, unlimited content through the foundry, and uses a modified version of 4th edition which translates better to a graphical game than 3rd edition could.
1) When getting a license for a D&D game you have to use the edition Wizards of the Coast want you to use. In this case it was 4th edition. When DDO came out it was 3.5.
2) 4th edition actually sucks for a table top game, but that is mainly because they targeted the MMO crowd with 4th edition.
3) The dailies, the encounter powers, etc. it all comes from 4th edition. The math from 4th edition is there just tucked away in the background. The lore is there. The classes are from 4th edition and they have stated plans to eventually have them all in game. It is 4th edition even if its modified a bit.
4) It allows you to do what DDO doesn't, create content which is a core feature in D&D. You can actually take and develop content for your friends, have them play it and even play it with them. Not only will they be able to play the campaigns you've made but so will thousands of others.
Neverwinter is closer to D&D than DDO could ever hope to be due to the foundry. Even without the foundry Neverwinter sticks closer to 4th edition than DDO does to 3rd or 3.5. To be fair though, 4th edition again was made with the MMO crowd in mind and translated to a graphical game a great deal better.
Brush up on 4th edition and play a campaign or two, play Neverwinters beta, then come back and tell me it's not based on 4th edition or that it doesn't have very much in common with the current D&D.
Yes I agree there is the foundry, but NOTHING in that statement will be true aslong as long as 90 percent of the dungeons created in the foundry is bad, sure they will be marked by a popularity system , but still..The IDEA behind the foundry is great..
Not to say that DDO can't release their own version of the foudry thou
But from looking at the dungeons created by the dev's in NW, don't you count them ? They should by my standards atleast be better then the average dungeon that is created in the foundry, and as far as I can tell, they are a linear fair straight from A-B
The Dungeons and adventures in DDO is mostly top notch, often with multiple ways to solve the dungeon in creative ways..
Your point 2....can you please link me to an article where developers talk about the 4th edition was created for MMO's rather than what it is, a P&P rpg.. Seems really odd if they created this ruleset as a paper copy to some computer roleplaying rules..
Again, you have "names" that are taken from the rules, is that enough to call it based of 4th edition rules..even the daylies are not a dayly , Its a skill on a few minutes cooldown..
DDO wasn't designed in a way that would allow player made content and aside from that interest has wained to much to warrant the development cost. Top that off with Neverwinter online coming out before they could even begin development or implement it taking even more players away and the answer is No, DDO couldn't do their own version of the foundry.
I found the dungeons in DDO to be very lack luster as did everyone I played D&D with online and offline. We stuck with NWN for our graphical D&D play time.
As far as point 2, if you actually have any experience with 4th ed then you'd know it's basically an MMO in pen and paper form. No need to link articles or anything, just google it. You will see the same thing said most places you look lol.
No, not just names but this is part of where the modification comes in. Pen and Paper rules focus on real time (Sort of) while MMO's focus on game time. Instead of refreshing a daily power each game day you have a "bar" that fills up as you fight. Is that enough fo to say it uses nothing more than the same name? The power does the exact same thing, it's use is simply buffed a bit due to the nature of an MMO which plays faster. I mean, sure if you are taking turns and a dungeon run can make up the entire gaming session using a power once a day is fine, but when you are doing 3 or 4 dungeons with real time game play doesn't it make sense for that to change?
Okay, so lets ignore the fact that all the powers and abilities and such function the same as does the math. Lets say even though everything does the same thing even with the slight modifications to usage we won't count that.
Does this also negate the companions, the lore, the ability to create dungeons and campaigns?
I mean how much like D&D does it have to be before it's considered D&D? Should the screen be nothing more than a hand, dice, pencil, and a piece of paper?
D&D 4th ed is clearly present in Neverwinter, that isn't deniable by anyone that has played Neverwinter or is remotely familiar with 4th ed.
Lets also not forget to mention that every Tuesday the lead developers of NWO have a conference call with WotC about content and story. There was a podcast with Andy Vleasquez where they discussed the Guardian FIghter's Taunt animations being to Magiky and they had to go back to the drawing board several times before the AOE taunt was approved. That to me shows how well the IP holders hold their subsidary companies to a high standard in creating authentic D&D content.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
damit. all i really want out of an mmo is 3.5 in an open Faerun world. but it will never happen.
its amazing b/c DDO has trouble and this one will probably as well. developers will never want to touch another DnD game again.
the issue? no one has made a *real* DnD game that the actual DnD lifers want to play.
3.5
open world
Faerun
and while making it may be difficult, the list is pretty short and pretty simple.
Yeah but how many are there? that would encourage the investors to invest their money into the project. It is business after all.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
damit. all i really want out of an mmo is 3.5 in an open Faerun world. but it will never happen.
its amazing b/c DDO has trouble and this one will probably as well. developers will never want to touch another DnD game again.
the issue? no one has made a *real* DnD game that the actual DnD lifers want to play.
3.5
open world
Faerun
and while making it may be difficult, the list is pretty short and pretty simple.
Yeah but how many are there? that would encourage the investors to invest their money into the project. It is business after all.
fair enough. another reason i won't be seeing this happen.
i spose i was just referring to some posters talking about each of these games trying to tap the DnD market. and im not sure they've really presented a desirable project is all.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Comments
lol
again another person with an OPINION and stating some game sucks, boring etc without anything to back up their claim. Welcome to my block list.
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Anything to back up the claim ? I jrote half page of reasons in my original post.
And as for identify scrolls - Again , rumor is they will be removed from ingame vendors and put to the item shop.
So far any exceptional quality item (Green and above) , basically any item worth equiping or selling to another player needs id scroll. Only at this beta weekend i found over 30 such items , while i found (and got from quest) 25 id scrolls.
Is this not the same like for example chest keys in GW2 ?
You get them from quests and world completion. Yet in whole time i played the game I got around 15. In my bank i have over 40 chests. Now in Gw2 chests are just convinience items.
Here we are talking actual equipment you can not use or even compare until identified.
Perfect way to earn money trough shop.
But I can not blame them. After all the game is free and quests are not locked.
This however doesnt make the game any worse or better. Its still awful rendition of D&D.
I am also an oldschool D&D fan and MMO veteran. My review of the game is more or less exactly the same as yours. The Tera fans may enjoy this, the D&D fans will want to off themselves.
^ I kinda agree...
it's free and the lore is D&D based. These are win/win in my book. Throwing money at it... that's a different story.
If you believe what you have experienced in neverwinter thus far is analogous to table top D&D "dungeon crawling and storytelling" then your DM always took it easy on you. Also, the unlimited "reroll your stats" at character creation was kind of a let down.
You are correct in one point. The foundry may be the saving grace of this game. There will be a group of people who will create content that is extremely challenging and engaging. Requiring people to play thier chosen role to its maximum. Atleast lets hope this happens.
Well, you kind of stated your problem in the title.
"Old School D&D fan" when the game isn't based off of Old School D&D.
Taking the game for what it is, it's pretty good. People with unrealistic expectations for a free to play MMO based on a modified 4th edition D&D are going to make posts like yours.
And for the record, if you played Neverwinter and DDO you know for a fact that Neverwinter is great deal ahead of DDO in every aspect lol. The foundry looks extremely robust and most are still waiting to get their hands on it, not many are allowed access to the foundry yet.
By the way, this was from an old school D&D fan and MMO veteran, I simply formed my opinions of a game while taking into account the number of variables surrounding it. If they had said this was based on 3rd edition I would be calling foul, but basing it off of 4th edition was a good call and they have stuck fairly true to it. 4th edition lends itself better to a graphical game a great deal better than 3rd edition could.
Your opinion. Mine is completely different. I think the game is amazing and if the devs hold their promise to deliver all the 4th edition classes in a routine fashion its going ot make for a lot of replayability. The Foundry is nothing short of amazing and even with the limited missions availble jsut wait till the old scool NWN modding community gets their hand on it. Which according to the folks over at NWNPodcast there is alot of modders anxious to get started.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
First the reroll your stat is jsut a choice between 3 presets. Not really a roll your stat system but its there to give the illusion of a D&D game. Secondly Ive been playing D&D since 1982 and at no point in my almsot 40 year history of tabletop gaming have I ever played a rigid role structred game. A good DM will use the rules as a base and build uopon somethign to make the game more suited to the gamers playing.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
D&D, MMO and DDO veteran here, the game is good, not awesome, not the 2nd Coming of Ultima Online/Ascheon's Call/take your pick, but it is a good game, the combat feels weighty, the story seems decent, the only thing I really dislike about it is my laptop's independent graphics card is not supported for some reason and it causes allot of dropped FPS in cities XD.
Now to the D&D purists need I remind you chaps that D&D 3.5 and below is impossible to recreate in a video game? No Neverwinter 1, Neverwinter 2, Baldur's Gate, etc, are not 1:1 recreations hell for the most part now when I go back to Neverwinter 1 or 2 (let alone Baldur's Gate) I am hit by that jolt of nostalgia 3 seconds before I remember the fucked up control scheme (when compared to today's games), the mind numbing grind and sometimes retarded AI so you guys might wanna take off your rose tinted glasses, step off your high horses and stop bashing a game you will obviously not play for not being what you would want to play (which would be a game few D&D fans would actually bother playing, why? can you imagine a group of more than 4 people taking turns doing actions in a dungeon, blocking each other off, getting in each other's way, etc?).
Neverwinter is a good game for what it is and what it is is a refined and quite enhanced version of World of Warcraft in a D&D setting with a better storyline and the ability to make your own stories and dungeons.
PS: Not a founder, Hell between EVE and Heart of the Swarm + a few other titles coming out this year I might not even get to play Neverwinter that much if at all.
Well said and it is because of those 2 reasons this game has grown ever so loved by me in such a short amount of time. The same can't be said for any other game even those I hyped because they all had the one serious flaw. No endgame. Already in Beta NWO is poised to strike joy in the hearts of pure D&D enthusiasts. Those 2 things are what I have longed for in an MMO for so long and none of the games in the last 14 years (since Asheron's Call) has given me what I crave, even those I enjoyed while leveling up.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Based on 4th edtion, based losely on 4th edition...thats a big diffrence just in this line.!!!
I haven't played any of the betas , ea I haven't played the game yet..but just by looking at vids and reading forums..I come to this conclusion, the game seems fun, but ..D&D ?
From what I can tell, they have used a few names here and there , spells and some advanced class names, thats how far the resemblence to D&D 4th edition goes with Neverwinter. Thats a very small resemblence..
Or is there actually "more" things that are by the D&D 4th ed rules ?
Lore is another thing however, If the lore is good ...well then It can be a great game
The dungeons are(from what I have seen) ..mostly super linear "corridors" with a boss in the middle and a boss in the end..Is that so ?
I cant come to my sences why a developer would want to negate a large chunk of players when creating an IP like this, The D&D crowd may aswell go back to DDO , It's a far superior game , In a D&D sence , than this one..Not saying this can't be fun..but ..
I find it a nice distraction, solid little game, I'll play
Oh and I would like to thank the OP for your service, being a veteran and all
"All expectation leads to suffering" Buhhda
Wait, DDO wasn't considered great? I thought it was a very entertaining game and did a good job bringing DnD to an Online environment. Sure, it wasn't fully fleshed out but it did a lot of components nicely in terms of 'cloaking' it into the gameplay while making it relevant which for me is a lot better then sticking it in the front lines.
Still, I do have to dislike on the fact neverwinter seems to shy away from a lot of things, and considering its taking 4th edition which, lets face it, is considered to be a very 'meh' playset (thus the popularity of pathfinder over it as the 'real' 4th edition of sorts) it kind of makes me not really expect all that much out of it to begin with. The 'locking' of the classes is probably my biggest gripe on it and I really am disapointed with it, whats with these horrible decisions of cutting out customization lately anyways?
Nah, DDO lacked one integral thing from ever making it an actual D&D game. Player created content. Neverwinter has better graphics, better combat, unlimited content through the foundry, and uses a modified version of 4th edition which translates better to a graphical game than 3rd edition could.
1) When getting a license for a D&D game you have to use the edition Wizards of the Coast want you to use. In this case it was 4th edition. When DDO came out it was 3.5.
2) 4th edition actually sucks for a table top game, but that is mainly because they targeted the MMO crowd with 4th edition.
3) The dailies, the encounter powers, etc. it all comes from 4th edition. The math from 4th edition is there just tucked away in the background. The lore is there. The classes are from 4th edition and they have stated plans to eventually have them all in game. It is 4th edition even if its modified a bit.
4) It allows you to do what DDO doesn't, create content which is a core feature in D&D. You can actually take and develop content for your friends, have them play it and even play it with them. Not only will they be able to play the campaigns you've made but so will thousands of others.
Neverwinter is closer to D&D than DDO could ever hope to be due to the foundry. Even without the foundry Neverwinter sticks closer to 4th edition than DDO does to 3rd or 3.5. To be fair though, 4th edition again was made with the MMO crowd in mind and translated to a graphical game a great deal better.
Brush up on 4th edition and play a campaign or two, play Neverwinters beta, then come back and tell me it's not based on 4th edition or that it doesn't have very much in common with the current D&D.
....not if you don't buy anything.
You get use to Lobotomist. He intentionally leaves things out to try and make something sound bad and some times he outright lies, though that could just be misinformation he gained by listening to others rather than playing himself. I will assume it's the latter.
1) No, not every piece of loot that drops needs to be identified. Pieces that needed identification don't drop often.
2) I had 20+ ID scrolls by level 10 that I got as drops. Players will also be selling ID scrolls.
3) You can buy ID scrolls with Astral Diamonds, you can get up to 24,000 astral diamonds a day simply by praying to your diety once an hour lol.
4) You can sale your Astral Diamonds for Zen so...
Yes I agree there is the foundry, but NOTHING in that statement will be true aslong as long as 90 percent of the dungeons created in the foundry is bad, sure they will be marked by a popularity system , but still..The IDEA behind the foundry is great..
Not to say that DDO can't release their own version of the foudry thou
But from looking at the dungeons created by the dev's in NW, don't you count them ? They should by my standards atleast be better then the average dungeon that is created in the foundry, and as far as I can tell, they are a linear fair straight from A-B
The Dungeons and adventures in DDO is mostly top notch, often with multiple ways to solve the dungeon in creative ways..
Your point 2....can you please link me to an article where developers talk about the 4th edition was created for MMO's rather than what it is, a P&P rpg.. Seems really odd if they created this ruleset as a paper copy to some computer roleplaying rules..
Again, you have "names" that are taken from the rules, is that enough to call it based of 4th edition rules..even the daylies are not a dayly , Its a skill on a few minutes cooldown..
damit. all i really want out of an mmo is 3.5 in an open Faerun world. but it will never happen.
its amazing b/c DDO has trouble and this one will probably as well. developers will never want to touch another DnD game again.
the issue? no one has made a *real* DnD game that the actual DnD lifers want to play.
3.5
open world
Faerun
and while making it may be difficult, the list is pretty short and pretty simple.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
DDO wasn't designed in a way that would allow player made content and aside from that interest has wained to much to warrant the development cost. Top that off with Neverwinter online coming out before they could even begin development or implement it taking even more players away and the answer is No, DDO couldn't do their own version of the foundry.
I found the dungeons in DDO to be very lack luster as did everyone I played D&D with online and offline. We stuck with NWN for our graphical D&D play time.
As far as point 2, if you actually have any experience with 4th ed then you'd know it's basically an MMO in pen and paper form. No need to link articles or anything, just google it. You will see the same thing said most places you look lol.
No, not just names but this is part of where the modification comes in. Pen and Paper rules focus on real time (Sort of) while MMO's focus on game time. Instead of refreshing a daily power each game day you have a "bar" that fills up as you fight. Is that enough fo to say it uses nothing more than the same name? The power does the exact same thing, it's use is simply buffed a bit due to the nature of an MMO which plays faster. I mean, sure if you are taking turns and a dungeon run can make up the entire gaming session using a power once a day is fine, but when you are doing 3 or 4 dungeons with real time game play doesn't it make sense for that to change?
Okay, so lets ignore the fact that all the powers and abilities and such function the same as does the math. Lets say even though everything does the same thing even with the slight modifications to usage we won't count that.
Does this also negate the companions, the lore, the ability to create dungeons and campaigns?
I mean how much like D&D does it have to be before it's considered D&D? Should the screen be nothing more than a hand, dice, pencil, and a piece of paper?
D&D 4th ed is clearly present in Neverwinter, that isn't deniable by anyone that has played Neverwinter or is remotely familiar with 4th ed.
Assuming that's so; wouldn't MMOs (not known for being turn-based) be the very worst place to seek it?
Who do you blame for this basic logical interrupt? The game designers, or the players?
Lets also not forget to mention that every Tuesday the lead developers of NWO have a conference call with WotC about content and story. There was a podcast with Andy Vleasquez where they discussed the Guardian FIghter's Taunt animations being to Magiky and they had to go back to the drawing board several times before the AOE taunt was approved. That to me shows how well the IP holders hold their subsidary companies to a high standard in creating authentic D&D content.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Yeah but how many are there? that would encourage the investors to invest their money into the project. It is business after all.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
fair enough. another reason i won't be seeing this happen.
i spose i was just referring to some posters talking about each of these games trying to tap the DnD market. and im not sure they've really presented a desirable project is all.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse