So they will also exclude and alienate a large portion of the market...
Yes and Mark has made this clear CU is not for the major market but a niche rvr game.
I realize that , and its a bad decision imo ..... doesnt make sense to aim low.
Please explain this to the developers of EvE, I don't think they understand the philosophy of aiming for a niche demographic being a bad decision and leading to failure.
I don't think its a case of "aiming low". Its good business to know your audience and work toward goals that are realistically attainable. By keeping development and ongoing costs low, they figure they can have a profitable game with 30K subs. If they can acheive that goal, then they can start to worry about expanding the core game and audience.
While being ambitious and 'aiming high" is all well and good, more than a few projects have endured premature deaths due to being too ambitious. Focus on what you can deliver, not what you might be able to deliver.
So true. How many huge budget games have went down in flames over the last 3 years?
So they will also exclude and alienate a large portion of the market...
Yes and Mark has made this clear CU is not for the major market but a niche rvr game.
I realize that , and its a bad decision imo ..... doesnt make sense to aim low.
Please explain this to the developers of EvE, I don't think they understand the philosophy of aiming for a niche demographic being a bad decision and leading to failure.
Hopefully CU fails as hard as EvE.
Erhmm .. its not Eve .. its not a Sci Fi Space game .. Eve really stands alone for a reason .. there isnt any competition for a sandbox space gaem.. now is there...
If CU decides to go with no PVE or half baked PVE it will really just end up the next Warhammer , the next MO , or the next DF ... really not very good company now is it..
If CU decides to go with no PVE or half baked PVE it will really just end up the next Warhammer , the next MO , or the next DF ... really not very good company now is it..
WAR "failed" because the entire game was half baked and DF is just a poor quality game with a "scary" rule set, as are most similar titles. The fact is many people play MMOs only for what PvP they provide, so trying to make out that a game focused only on providing an intricate PvP world is doomed to fail is daft really.
So they will also exclude and alienate a large portion of the market...
Yes and Mark has made this clear CU is not for the major market but a niche rvr game.
I realize that , and its a bad decision imo ..... doesnt make sense to aim low.
Please explain this to the developers of EvE, I don't think they understand the philosophy of aiming for a niche demographic being a bad decision and leading to failure.
Hopefully CU fails as hard as EvE.
Erhmm .. its not Eve .. its not a Sci Fi Space game .. Eve really stands alone for a reason .. there isnt any competition for a sandbox space gaem.. now is there...
If CU decides to go with no PVE or half baked PVE it will really just end up the next Warhammer , the next MO , or the next DF ... really not very good company now is it..
There are other Sci Fi Space games available - STO & SWTOR for example. EvE did not go for the million subscriber level, instead, they targetted a very small and specific niche and satisfied that small demographic extremely well. They are a subscription based game that has continued to grow that small niche market over time.
Comparing CU to other Fantasy MMOs on the market today such as WAR, GW2, TESO, on and on etc., to me is like comparing EvE to STO / SWTOR (like I did above). Plain silliness. They aren't the same type of game at all, so there isn't any comparison. Those games are heavily scripted, themeparked, and tried to cater to the mass WoW market by heavily investing in PvE with a little PvP tacked on for good measure.
CU is going the route of EvE in that they are catering to a specific small subset of players, namely PvP / RvR players, and they are hoping to do that well. Going for a target subscription base of 30,000 to 50,000 is tiny in comparison to what the other games were trying to capture, yet it doesn't mean that the concept is a poor business decision.
To me it means that they are taking a look at the business models available, and re-defining what it means to make a "successful" game, and going for it. In that light, I believe there is a better possibility and probablity for success in that than what you are willing to give credit for here.
WAR also was released a year or more before they were planning on. Initally, all 6 factions: Greenskin, Dwarf, Order, Chaos, Elf, Dark Elf, were going to have their own capitals that could be raided. When they launched, only Order and Chaos could be raided. Also, some of the abilities for classes were not fully tested or working at all. There was some serious problems, but after a good 3-6 months, they hammered them out, but also most of the sub-base left too. This was also due to having over 60 servers!
So they will also exclude and alienate a large portion of the market...
Yes and Mark has made this clear CU is not for the major market but a niche rvr game.
I realize that , and its a bad decision imo ..... doesnt make sense to aim low.
Please explain this to the developers of EvE, I don't think they understand the philosophy of aiming for a niche demographic being a bad decision and leading to failure.
Hopefully CU fails as hard as EvE.
Erhmm .. its not Eve .. its not a Sci Fi Space game .. Eve really stands alone for a reason .. there isnt any competition for a sandbox space gaem.. now is there...
If CU decides to go with no PVE or half baked PVE it will really just end up the next Warhammer , the next MO , or the next DF ... really not very good company now is it..
There are other Sci Fi Space games available - STO & SWTOR for example. EvE did not go for the million subscriber level, instead, they targetted a very small and specific niche and satisfied that small demographic extremely well. They are a subscription based game that has continued to grow that small niche market over time.
Comparing CU to other Fantasy MMOs on the market today such as WAR, GW2, TESO, on and on etc., to me is like comparing EvE to STO / SWTOR (like I did above). Plain silliness. They aren't the same type of game at all, so there isn't any comparison. Those games are heavily scripted, themeparked, and tried to cater to the mass WoW market by heavily investing in PvE with a little PvP tacked on for good measure.
CU is going the route of EvE in that they are catering to a specific small subset of players, namely PvP / RvR players, and they are hoping to do that well. Going for a target subscription base of 30,000 to 50,000 is tiny in comparison to what the other games were trying to capture, yet it doesn't mean that the concept is a poor business decision.
To me it means that they are taking a look at the business models available, and re-defining what it means to make a "successful" game, and going for it. In that light, I believe there is a better possibility and probablity for success in that than what you are willing to give credit for here.
STO and TOR are not by any strecth of the imgination Sandbox Space games .. Eve has no competition ..
Originally posted by RealLifeGobbo WAR also was released a year or more before they were planning on. Initally, all 6 factions: Greenskin, Dwarf, Order, Chaos, Elf, Dark Elf, were going to have their own capitals that could be raided. When they launched, only Order and Chaos could be raided. Also, some of the abilities for classes were not fully tested or working at all. There was some serious problems, but after a good 3-6 months, they hammered them out, but also most of the sub-base left too. This was also due to having over 60 serverswrong response
If CU decides to go with no PVE or half baked PVE it will really just end up the next Warhammer , the next MO , or the next DF ... really not very good company now is it..
WAR "failed" because the entire game was half baked and DF is just a poor quality game with a "scary" rule set, as are most similar titles. The fact is many people play MMOs only for what PvP they provide, so trying to make out that a game focused only on providing an intricate PvP world is doomed to fail is daft really.
I hvae RR 87 Engie , have played plenty of War and it failed because 1 . Scenarios...2. the "PVE" is some of the worse out there..
I think that there are a lot of interesting/valid points on both sides of the spectrum here. Glad to get this conversation going because I think it's an important one, and one that could ultimately make or break the game.
Going for a smaller niche PVP player market is fine, but then you are inherently putting a ceiling on the games' potential. So many players out there that enjoy PVP also place a lot of value in PVE gameplay, and as was mentioned previously, this game is alienating that entire pool of players.
there are a bazillion PVE games already out there currently, with a couple more decent ones set to come out in the next 1-2 years...
why put that much money/time/effort into it, and have to balance between pve and rvr, when it's not necessary
I like the idea of rvr only, because it's different from all the others out there. it will free them up to try things that you couldn't ordinarily do in a pve/pvp game.
I hvae RR 87 Engie , have played plenty of War and it failed because 1 . Scenarios...2. the "PVE" is some of the worse out there..
Like I said the game was half baked, PvE was a one trick pony, the PvP mechcanics clashed with each other, RvR was more like Players vs Flags and the class/combat design was pretty poor too really.
STO and TOR are not by any strecth of the imgination Sandbox Space games .. Eve has no competition ..
By the same token, neither will CU. There are no other RVR-focused sandbox fantasy games out there.
Thank you, this was my point exactly.
Yes, DAoC and UO are still in existence. There is no game that has been released within the last decade that fits the bill. A bit of an updated MMO isn't too much to ask for once every 10 years or so, is it?
I think some people are using their experiences in themepark pve games that include rvr as a frame of reference for the rvr planned for CU, which I find a bit strange for anyone who has read the Foundational Principles.
If they succeed at realizing these principles, the rvr experience in CU will be different than, and a deeper experience than any existing MMO.
Also, there will be no PvE levelling. MJ hinted at there still being SOME PvE elements, just not ones that gave exp and loot.
Also, DF (believe!)
We also don't know enough about crafting/building to rule out player-created stuff that could provide a player-driven pve experience.
We don't know enough yet. That's all.
As to the debate over whether or not it's a good idea to target a niche market, I am not into armchair economics, but with a small team, it kinda seems like that makes it easier to remain profitable. I could be totally wrong on that, though.
I really enjoyed the PVE in DAOC , shame they have decided to exclude it.. .. So they will also exclude and alienate a large portion of the market...
And it already has been posted , there are plnety of PVE and plenty of PVP games , but one of the things that made DAOC unique is it did both well imo ... And no game since has..
Mark openly states this is a niche game and that he is not trying to grab "a large portion of the market". If that was the type of game he was trying to make, he could quite easily, but but thats not the game he envisions. People are dissapointed but this isn't going to be DAOC 2. It will be a unique game that takes the parts of PVP and RVR that were great in other games and makes them the heart of it and available right away, where players can get to the fun immediately but still have the ability to gain strength and power over time through playing (in part because the power disparity between new and older players will be much more horizontal than the extreme differences between a "high level" and "low level" in other games).
I think that you may still enjoy this game once it comes out even if it isn't what you hope for. Also, other games, such as Elder Scrolls online, may be more of what you're looking for when it comes to something that you can both pve and pvp in. Hope it turns out well and I hope you to keep up on CU as it develops and give it a try when it comes out. You may actually enjoy it for the PvP and find that the crafting, housing, and community keeps you around when you are burnt out on that.
I think another thing people are missing is that unlike other games, the crafting and building systems are a class unto themselves. It's not a fighter taking armorsmithing so he can make his own gear. This is something that has been lacking in many MMOs. There are, believe it or not, a lot of folks who simply love crafting. Being able to rise to a high level where you're gear is sought after is an amazing thing for us. I think pure crafters will at least take a look at this game for that feature alone. It's what has me buzzing and looking at becoming a backer.
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself. ~Declaration of Arbroath
Originally posted by Arbroath I think another thing people are missing is that unlike other games, the crafting and building systems are a class unto themselves. It's not a fighter taking armorsmithing so he can make his own gear. This is something that has been lacking in many MMOs. There are, believe it or not, a lot of folks who simply love crafting. Being able to rise to a high level where you're gear is sought after is an amazing thing for us. I think pure crafters will at least take a look at this game for that feature alone. It's what has me buzzing and looking at becoming a backer.
Let alone rebuilding the world according to the last video describing the game.
I really enjoyed the PVE in DAOC , shame they have decided to exclude it.. .. So they will also exclude and alienate a large portion of the market...
And it already has been posted , there are plnety of PVE and plenty of PVP games , but one of the things that made DAOC unique is it did both well imo ... And no game since has..
Mark openly states this is a niche game and that he is not trying to grab "a large portion of the market". If that was the type of game he was trying to make, he could quite easily, but but thats not the game he envisions. People are dissapointed but this isn't going to be DAOC 2. It will be a unique game that takes the parts of PVP and RVR that were great in other games and makes them the heart of it and available right away, where players can get to the fun immediately but still have the ability to gain strength and power over time through playing (in part because the power disparity between new and older players will be much more horizontal than the extreme differences between a "high level" and "low level" in other games).
I think that you may still enjoy this game once it comes out even if it isn't what you hope for. Also, other games, such as Elder Scrolls online, may be more of what you're looking for when it comes to something that you can both pve and pvp in. Hope it turns out well and I hope you to keep up on CU as it develops and give it a try when it comes out. You may actually enjoy it for the PvP and find that the crafting, housing, and community keeps you around when you are burnt out on that.
ANd this is the same Mark that said many things for Warhammer and failed to deliver on almost all of it..
I really enjoyed the PVE in DAOC , shame they have decided to exclude it.. .. So they will also exclude and alienate a large portion of the market...
And it already has been posted , there are plnety of PVE and plenty of PVP games , but one of the things that made DAOC unique is it did both well imo ... And no game since has..
Mark openly states this is a niche game and that he is not trying to grab "a large portion of the market". If that was the type of game he was trying to make, he could quite easily, but but thats not the game he envisions. People are dissapointed but this isn't going to be DAOC 2. It will be a unique game that takes the parts of PVP and RVR that were great in other games and makes them the heart of it and available right away, where players can get to the fun immediately but still have the ability to gain strength and power over time through playing (in part because the power disparity between new and older players will be much more horizontal than the extreme differences between a "high level" and "low level" in other games).
I think that you may still enjoy this game once it comes out even if it isn't what you hope for. Also, other games, such as Elder Scrolls online, may be more of what you're looking for when it comes to something that you can both pve and pvp in. Hope it turns out well and I hope you to keep up on CU as it develops and give it a try when it comes out. You may actually enjoy it for the PvP and find that the crafting, housing, and community keeps you around when you are burnt out on that.
ANd this is the same Mark that said many things for Warhammer and failed to deliver on almost all of it..
He will also not have publishers breathing down his neck to change/discard things to push an imaginary deadline
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself. ~Declaration of Arbroath
ANd this is the same Mark that said many things for Warhammer and failed to deliver on almost all of it..
While I have no inside knowledge, I would lay about 95% of the blame at EA's feet. I know Mark would never say that, but anyone that has ever worked in corporate America knows EXACTLY what caused that. I mean, look at the SimCity fiasco.
Comments
Please explain this to the developers of EvE, I don't think they understand the philosophy of aiming for a niche demographic being a bad decision and leading to failure.
Hopefully CU fails as hard as EvE.
So true. How many huge budget games have went down in flames over the last 3 years?
Erhmm .. its not Eve .. its not a Sci Fi Space game .. Eve really stands alone for a reason .. there isnt any competition for a sandbox space gaem.. now is there...
If CU decides to go with no PVE or half baked PVE it will really just end up the next Warhammer , the next MO , or the next DF ... really not very good company now is it..
WAR "failed" because the entire game was half baked and DF is just a poor quality game with a "scary" rule set, as are most similar titles. The fact is many people play MMOs only for what PvP they provide, so trying to make out that a game focused only on providing an intricate PvP world is doomed to fail is daft really.
There are other Sci Fi Space games available - STO & SWTOR for example. EvE did not go for the million subscriber level, instead, they targetted a very small and specific niche and satisfied that small demographic extremely well. They are a subscription based game that has continued to grow that small niche market over time.
Comparing CU to other Fantasy MMOs on the market today such as WAR, GW2, TESO, on and on etc., to me is like comparing EvE to STO / SWTOR (like I did above). Plain silliness. They aren't the same type of game at all, so there isn't any comparison. Those games are heavily scripted, themeparked, and tried to cater to the mass WoW market by heavily investing in PvE with a little PvP tacked on for good measure.
CU is going the route of EvE in that they are catering to a specific small subset of players, namely PvP / RvR players, and they are hoping to do that well. Going for a target subscription base of 30,000 to 50,000 is tiny in comparison to what the other games were trying to capture, yet it doesn't mean that the concept is a poor business decision.
To me it means that they are taking a look at the business models available, and re-defining what it means to make a "successful" game, and going for it. In that light, I believe there is a better possibility and probablity for success in that than what you are willing to give credit for here.
Aspiring Game Musician <<>> Inquiring ears, feel free to visit: http://www.youtube.com/user/vagarylabs
STO and TOR are not by any strecth of the imgination Sandbox Space games .. Eve has no competition ..
I hvae RR 87 Engie , have played plenty of War and it failed because 1 . Scenarios...2. the "PVE" is some of the worse out there..
By the same token, neither will CU. There are no other RVR-focused sandbox fantasy games out there.
I think that there are a lot of interesting/valid points on both sides of the spectrum here. Glad to get this conversation going because I think it's an important one, and one that could ultimately make or break the game.
Going for a smaller niche PVP player market is fine, but then you are inherently putting a ceiling on the games' potential. So many players out there that enjoy PVP also place a lot of value in PVE gameplay, and as was mentioned previously, this game is alienating that entire pool of players.
some would argue that DAOC , DF and MO fit that description , and War .. lossely
there are a bazillion PVE games already out there currently, with a couple more decent ones set to come out in the next 1-2 years...
why put that much money/time/effort into it, and have to balance between pve and rvr, when it's not necessary
I like the idea of rvr only, because it's different from all the others out there. it will free them up to try things that you couldn't ordinarily do in a pve/pvp game.
MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/
Like I said the game was half baked, PvE was a one trick pony, the PvP mechcanics clashed with each other, RvR was more like Players vs Flags and the class/combat design was pretty poor too really.
Thank you, this was my point exactly.
Yes, DAoC and UO are still in existence. There is no game that has been released within the last decade that fits the bill. A bit of an updated MMO isn't too much to ask for once every 10 years or so, is it?
If they succeed at realizing these principles, the rvr experience in CU will be different than, and a deeper experience than any existing MMO.
Also, there will be no PvE levelling. MJ hinted at there still being SOME PvE elements, just not ones that gave exp and loot.
Also, DF (believe!)
We also don't know enough about crafting/building to rule out player-created stuff that could provide a player-driven pve experience.
We don't know enough yet. That's all.
As to the debate over whether or not it's a good idea to target a niche market, I am not into armchair economics, but with a small team, it kinda seems like that makes it easier to remain profitable. I could be totally wrong on that, though.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
Mark openly states this is a niche game and that he is not trying to grab "a large portion of the market". If that was the type of game he was trying to make, he could quite easily, but but thats not the game he envisions. People are dissapointed but this isn't going to be DAOC 2. It will be a unique game that takes the parts of PVP and RVR that were great in other games and makes them the heart of it and available right away, where players can get to the fun immediately but still have the ability to gain strength and power over time through playing (in part because the power disparity between new and older players will be much more horizontal than the extreme differences between a "high level" and "low level" in other games).
I think that you may still enjoy this game once it comes out even if it isn't what you hope for. Also, other games, such as Elder Scrolls online, may be more of what you're looking for when it comes to something that you can both pve and pvp in. Hope it turns out well and I hope you to keep up on CU as it develops and give it a try when it comes out. You may actually enjoy it for the PvP and find that the crafting, housing, and community keeps you around when you are burnt out on that.
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself. ~Declaration of Arbroath
Let alone rebuilding the world according to the last video describing the game.
ANd this is the same Mark that said many things for Warhammer and failed to deliver on almost all of it..
He will also not have publishers breathing down his neck to change/discard things to push an imaginary deadline
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself. ~Declaration of Arbroath
While I have no inside knowledge, I would lay about 95% of the blame at EA's feet. I know Mark would never say that, but anyone that has ever worked in corporate America knows EXACTLY what caused that. I mean, look at the SimCity fiasco.
EA history. Get familiar with it.
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt
I think I'm going to save my PvE for EQNext.
CU is strictly for RvR