There is very little accumulated "mmo skill" that would make fighting mobs easier, and it's nothing a brand new player couldn't figure out immediately if they bother to read and understand the skills they are using. Hell, I don't even bust out a spreadsheet and do the math on builds like some do, because there's no reason to. These games are easier.
Really? Show me a brand new max-level player who can raid hard mode effectively.
The point of the article is not that there is no easy content in MMO, it is that there is difficult content, and people ignoring the challenges when they are complaining about games being "too easy".
Of course it is easy if you don't even try the challenging content. Go do all the challenging content ... if that is still too easy, come back .. and may be then you have some credibility to rant.
Most people don't raid. Period. We know this from statistics of MMOs like WoW. Raiding is like a second job, and most people simply re-roll in these games instead, which is another reason why everyone is getting bored with the same old end-game raid design.
The point is that the games should have some challenging content in-world too, not just faceroll gameplay that any half-awake idiot can do because their character is so overpowered, or hard-mode scripted raid content.
Actually in WoW, most people do raid.....its the hardmodes that very few people do (hense the point of the article). LFR was a great addition in that sense.
MMORPGs are easier and dumbed down now, i dont understand how someone cant grasp that. It is rather simple, for starters there is no way to pick difficult setting in a massive online game unlike single player games, this effectivily means that the game has to be developed around a single parameter of difficulty. Now the definition of whats easy or hard varies alot from player to player but it is common sense that if a MMORPGs sets the bar too high it will unavoidabily push alot of the regular gamers away.
With that in mind the difficulty of the game is set on the easier side so to cater to the most possible community, the same can be applyed to "dumbing down" games, alot of the gamers out there dont wanna have to deal with something that is very complex and hard to grasp by making the game simpler you can make it easier for more players to get into the game and enjoy.
It is just a logical bussness solution, you wanna be able to attract the most players and since the ammount of average/casual gamers far exceeds the hardcore ones a MMORPG will obviously be designed around them.
Exactly, this is the issue with every single post about GW2.
Its too easy.
Ask them to post a video of them playing a bunker elementalist or lvl 100+ fractals, perhaps a video of them in a group where they can actually heal/tank an instance in a group without anyone dieing instead of rez zerging it.
Get a big "huh?" response from them.
laugh and walk away.
I think their confusion is that if "easy" gameplay is available as an option, then the whole game is easy. That is furthest from the truth.
Take D3. Doing inferno with no monster power is now trivial. Any fresh 60 can face tank almost everything and kill everything in seconds.
But the game also has a MP10 hard core perma-death mode. So is the game easy? Now, D3 has little complaint about it being easy because it was way difficult (for inferno) when it first came out.
But in reality, it has very easy, and very difficult content, just like WOW and many other MMOs.
Yes but it also goes deeper than that sometimes.
A game is released, in a group, it turns out that if you die, you can run back before the fight ends and continue to help the group...because of THAT, people start REZ ZERGING all content because that makes it EASY...instead of actually LEARNING how to NOT die.
Dieing = easy.
Not dieing = hard.
Because easy, is easier...why learn how not to die? Because not dieing is hard!
Either way, because you can do it easy and choose to do it easy, suddenly hard doesnt exist and so...complain. Even though, now, you CANT DO THAT ANYMORE. So, go back and play it, turns out the game is TOO HARD because you dont know how to actually play...complain.
There is very little accumulated "mmo skill" that would make fighting mobs easier, and it's nothing a brand new player couldn't figure out immediately if they bother to read and understand the skills they are using. Hell, I don't even bust out a spreadsheet and do the math on builds like some do, because there's no reason to. These games are easier.
Really? Show me a brand new max-level player who can raid hard mode effectively.
The point of the article is not that there is no easy content in MMO, it is that there is difficult content, and people ignoring the challenges when they are complaining about games being "too easy".
Of course it is easy if you don't even try the challenging content. Go do all the challenging content ... if that is still too easy, come back .. and may be then you have some credibility to rant.
Most people don't raid. Period. We know this from statistics of MMOs like WoW. Raiding is like a second job, and most people simply re-roll in these games instead, which is another reason why everyone is getting bored with the same old end-game raid design.
The point is that the games should have some challenging content in-world too, not just faceroll gameplay that any half-awake idiot can do because their character is so overpowered, or hard-mode scripted raid content.
Actually in WoW, most people do raid.....its the hardmodes that very few people do (hense the point of the article). LFR was a great addition in that sense.
Actually I don't think thats true at all. Even with LFR using WoWprogress, depending on the numbers you use show that between 25,000 and 60,000 guilds have completed a raid, Average guild size is about 25 (yes there are many more, yes there are many less as there are both 25 and 10 man raids),
This is 1.5 million, which is only 15% of the games population.
Yes I know these are not exact number, they are very very rough numbers, but they are the only actual numbers we have to go on.
Even give a 100% fault with this, that is still only 30%.
Most accounts in WoW do not raid, or even have a max level character.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Actually I don't think thats true at all. Even with LFR using WoWprogress, depending on the numbers you use show that between 25,000 and 60,000 guilds have completed a raid, Average guild size is about 25 (yes there are many more, yes there are many less as there are both 25 and 10 man raids),
This is 1.5 million, which is only 15% of the games population.
People don't need a guild to LFR. And if you LFR, it does not necessarily show up as a completion in your guild.
mmo-champion has some numbers when LFR first came out. The number is more like 35% of players completing the DS LFR raid after a month or two after the raid was released. The number is like 4% for the normal one.
I think when people say 'easy' it needs clarification.
Here's a more detailed explination of what I think is the 'core' issue. I'll use D3 as an example.
The first time you run a character through D3 it is easy. The second time it is easy. The third time it's more difficult, but you've already done the game twice before. You want to try another class, you have to play 2 easy versions of the same game and content 2 more times per character before you reach the 'challenge'.
The problem isn't that the end game is easy. The problem is you have to play the game on easy mode to the point of ad naseum to reach the challenge.
Grats! You won the game on easy mode. Now play it again a few more times and we'll present you with a challenge. Our game is challenging, as long as you have the patience to trudge through tedium to get there.
Games should challenge players from the moment they enter the game. Putting the challenge at the end, after playing the game a dozen times is not a 'difficult' game, it is a tedious one.
A game is released, in a group, it turns out that if you die, you can run back before the fight ends and continue to help the group...because of THAT, people start REZ ZERGING all content because that makes it EASY...instead of actually LEARNING how to NOT die.
What MMO you can do that? You can't even do that in D3 (not a MMO) boss fight.
1) If you die, you cannot re-enter the instances after you rez outside. Usually the instance is locked.
Here's a more detailed explination of what I think is the 'core' issue. I'll use D3 as an example.
The first time you run a character through D3 it is easy. The second time it is easy. The third time it's more difficult, but you've already done the game twice before. You want to try another class, you have to play 2 easy versions of the same game and content 2 more times per character before you reach the 'challenge'.
Not if you run MP10 with no twink gear. The first time is not easy.
A game is released, in a group, it turns out that if you die, you can run back before the fight ends and continue to help the group...because of THAT, people start REZ ZERGING all content because that makes it EASY...instead of actually LEARNING how to NOT die.
Dieing = easy.
Not dieing = hard.
Because easy, is easier...why learn how not to die? Because not dieing is hard!
I don't know if the topic is worth exploring in this thread, but I'll ask anyway: what is it that makes not dying harder than dying? Or to put it more clearly, what makes a game where you can die many times harder than a game where you can only die once?
On one hand, you've got a normal game of Starcraft or whatever, fighting against the AI. On the other hand, you've got a Starcraft custom game where you control 5 Marines and have to take down a something-or-other without losing a single unit. Which is the harder game? In the real game, you need a lot of knowledge about the mechanics, ability to multitask, and macro strategies as well as manual dexterity for micro. It is clearly a more complex game that would take much longer to master than the minigame. Does the fact that you lose units constantly throughout the match make it an easier game? I think not.
Take the same concept and apply it to hit points. Instead of interpreting death as failure, treat injury as failure. There are some games where you can take several hits before you die. There are others where you die from a single hit. Would you say that one-hit-kill games are harder than games with a health meter? Would a one-hit-kill MMO (or RTS or fighting game or MOBA) be more challenging? I sure don't think so. Allowing for mistakes means the difficulty level can be planned around the fact that the player will take a lot of damage. This means there are more complex decisions to be made. The one-hit-kill game is inherently less complex because there's a more static risk-vs-reward system present. You don't get that "I have to change tactics when I get low on health" aspect.
A game is released, in a group, it turns out that if you die, you can run back before the fight ends and continue to help the group...because of THAT, people start REZ ZERGING all content because that makes it EASY...instead of actually LEARNING how to NOT die.
What MMO you can do that? You can't even do that in D3 (not a MMO) boss fight.
This may sound crazy but you may want to actually read the quotes in what you are replying to...
A game is released, in a group, it turns out that if you die, you can run back before the fight ends and continue to help the group...because of THAT, people start REZ ZERGING all content because that makes it EASY...instead of actually LEARNING how to NOT die.
Dieing = easy.
Not dieing = hard.
Because easy, is easier...why learn how not to die? Because not dieing is hard!
I don't know if the topic is worth exploring in this thread, but I'll ask anyway: what is it that makes not dying harder than dying?
What makes DIEING harder than not dieing...it doesnt take skill to die, it does take skill to not die, to learn the fight, to stay ahead on the healing curve...seriously, how can anyone even ask that question.
for starters there is no way to pick difficult setting in a massive online game unlike single player games,
uh? Where have you been?
I can pick difficulty in DDO, and WOW (3 difficulty of raid, 2 difficulty of 5-man dungeon).
Could do it for instances in CoH too.
In fact, this probably should be a standard feature in MMOs. Clearly different people want different levels of difficulty, and clearly this is doable. There is little reason not to give it to them.
There is very little accumulated "mmo skill" that would make fighting mobs easier, and it's nothing a brand new player couldn't figure out immediately if they bother to read and understand the skills they are using. Hell, I don't even bust out a spreadsheet and do the math on builds like some do, because there's no reason to. These games are easier.
Really? Show me a brand new max-level player who can raid hard mode effectively.
The point of the article is not that there is no easy content in MMO, it is that there is difficult content, and people ignoring the challenges when they are complaining about games being "too easy".
Of course it is easy if you don't even try the challenging content. Go do all the challenging content ... if that is still too easy, come back .. and may be then you have some credibility to rant.
Most people don't raid. Period. We know this from statistics of MMOs like WoW. Raiding is like a second job, and most people simply re-roll in these games instead, which is another reason why everyone is getting bored with the same old end-game raid design.
The point is that the games should have some challenging content in-world too, not just faceroll gameplay that any half-awake idiot can do because their character is so overpowered, or hard-mode scripted raid content.
Actually in WoW, most people do raid.....its the hardmodes that very few people do (hense the point of the article). LFR was a great addition in that sense.
Actually I don't think thats true at all. Even with LFR using WoWprogress, depending on the numbers you use show that between 25,000 and 60,000 guilds have completed a raid, Average guild size is about 25 (yes there are many more, yes there are many less as there are both 25 and 10 man raids),
This is 1.5 million, which is only 15% of the games population.
Yes I know these are not exact number, they are very very rough numbers, but they are the only actual numbers we have to go on.
Even give a 100% fault with this, that is still only 30%.
Most accounts in WoW do not raid, or even have a max level character.
WoW progress is not tracking individual LFR progress, it tracks full Guild run Normal and heroic kills
There is very little accumulated "mmo skill" that would make fighting mobs easier, and it's nothing a brand new player couldn't figure out immediately if they bother to read and understand the skills they are using. Hell, I don't even bust out a spreadsheet and do the math on builds like some do, because there's no reason to. These games are easier.
Really? Show me a brand new max-level player who can raid hard mode effectively.
The point of the article is not that there is no easy content in MMO, it is that there is difficult content, and people ignoring the challenges when they are complaining about games being "too easy".
Of course it is easy if you don't even try the challenging content. Go do all the challenging content ... if that is still too easy, come back .. and may be then you have some credibility to rant.
Most people don't raid. Period. We know this from statistics of MMOs like WoW. Raiding is like a second job, and most people simply re-roll in these games instead, which is another reason why everyone is getting bored with the same old end-game raid design.
The point is that the games should have some challenging content in-world too, not just faceroll gameplay that any half-awake idiot can do because their character is so overpowered, or hard-mode scripted raid content.
Actually in WoW, most people do raid.....its the hardmodes that very few people do (hense the point of the article). LFR was a great addition in that sense.
Actually I don't think thats true at all. Even with LFR using WoWprogress, depending on the numbers you use show that between 25,000 and 60,000 guilds have completed a raid, Average guild size is about 25 (yes there are many more, yes there are many less as there are both 25 and 10 man raids),
This is 1.5 million, which is only 15% of the games population.
Yes I know these are not exact number, they are very very rough numbers, but they are the only actual numbers we have to go on.
Even give a 100% fault with this, that is still only 30%.
Most accounts in WoW do not raid, or even have a max level character.
WoW progress is not tracking individual LFR progress, it tracks full Guild run Normal and heroic kills
ah, my mistake. Well I'll say the number is a bit higher, but still content the majority, as in over 50%, don't raid.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
There is very little accumulated "mmo skill" that would make fighting mobs easier, and it's nothing a brand new player couldn't figure out immediately if they bother to read and understand the skills they are using. Hell, I don't even bust out a spreadsheet and do the math on builds like some do, because there's no reason to. These games are easier.
Really? Show me a brand new max-level player who can raid hard mode effectively.
The point of the article is not that there is no easy content in MMO, it is that there is difficult content, and people ignoring the challenges when they are complaining about games being "too easy".
Of course it is easy if you don't even try the challenging content. Go do all the challenging content ... if that is still too easy, come back .. and may be then you have some credibility to rant.
Most people don't raid. Period. We know this from statistics of MMOs like WoW. Raiding is like a second job, and most people simply re-roll in these games instead, which is another reason why everyone is getting bored with the same old end-game raid design.
The point is that the games should have some challenging content in-world too, not just faceroll gameplay that any half-awake idiot can do because their character is so overpowered, or hard-mode scripted raid content.
Actually in WoW, most people do raid.....its the hardmodes that very few people do (hense the point of the article). LFR was a great addition in that sense.
Actually I don't think thats true at all. Even with LFR using WoWprogress, depending on the numbers you use show that between 25,000 and 60,000 guilds have completed a raid, Average guild size is about 25 (yes there are many more, yes there are many less as there are both 25 and 10 man raids),
This is 1.5 million, which is only 15% of the games population.
Yes I know these are not exact number, they are very very rough numbers, but they are the only actual numbers we have to go on.
Even give a 100% fault with this, that is still only 30%.
Most accounts in WoW do not raid, or even have a max level character.
WoW progress is not tracking individual LFR progress, it tracks full Guild run Normal and heroic kills
ah, my mistake. Well I'll say the number is a bit higher, but still content the majority, as in over 50%, don't raid.
Not to go back and fourth with this, but I literally do not know a single active WoW player with a max level toon (mains, not alts) who has not at least done an LFR (I realise this sint the most compelling argument). LFR is done exactly like 5 man dungons, they are "easy", and you queue for them individually or as a group. I am willing to bet my life savings that LFR use is over 50%, just like the dungon finder.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar And on the other other, I know many that don't have max level toons. Isn't lfr only available for 25 player mode?
Yes, you queue for LFR, and get grouped with 24 other random players. Thats the great thing about it, anyone can do it without investing oddles of time or even be in a guild. Of course max level toons would only come into play, the initial comment I responded to was talking about "end game raiding". My "over 50%" is refering to charecters capable of running endgame content. My apologies if that was not clear before.
Originally posted by doodphace Originally posted by VengeSunsoarOriginally posted by doodphaceOriginally posted by VengeSunsoarOriginally posted by doodphaceOriginally posted by MindTriggerOriginally posted by nariusseldonOriginally posted by MindTrigger
There is very little accumulated "mmo skill" that would make fighting mobs easier, and it's nothing a brand new player couldn't figure out immediately if they bother to read and understand the skills they are using. Hell, I don't even bust out a spreadsheet and do the math on builds like some do, because there's no reason to. These games are easier.Really? Show me a brand new max-level player who can raid hard mode effectively.The point of the article is not that there is no easy content in MMO, it is that there is difficult content, and people ignoring the challenges when they are complaining about games being "too easy".Of course it is easy if you don't even try the challenging content. Go do all the challenging content ... if that is still too easy, come back .. and may be then you have some credibility to rant.Most people don't raid. Period. We know this from statistics of MMOs like WoW. Raiding is like a second job, and most people simply re-roll in these games instead, which is another reason why everyone is getting bored with the same old end-game raid design.The point is that the games should have some challenging content in-world too, not just faceroll gameplay that any half-awake idiot can do because their character is so overpowered, or hard-mode scripted raid content. Actually in WoW, most people do raid.....its the hardmodes that very few people do (hense the point of the article). LFR was a great addition in that sense. Actually I don't think thats true at all. Even with LFR using WoWprogress, depending on the numbers you use show that between 25,000 and 60,000 guilds have completed a raid, Average guild size is about 25 (yes there are many more, yes there are many less as there are both 25 and 10 man raids), This is 1.5 million, which is only 15% of the games population.Yes I know these are not exact number, they are very very rough numbers, but they are the only actual numbers we have to go on.Even give a 100% fault with this, that is still only 30%.Most accounts in WoW do not raid, or even have a max level character.WoW progress is not tracking individual LFR progress, it tracks full Guild run Normal and heroic killsah, my mistake. Well I'll say the number is a bit higher, but still content the majority, as in over 50%, don't raid.Not to go back and fourth with this, but I literally do not know a single active WoW player with a max level toon (mains, not alts) who has not at least done an LFR (I realise this sint the most compelling argument). LFR is done exactly like 5 man dungons, they are "easy", and you queue for them individually or as a group. I am willing to bet my life savings that LFR use is over 50%, just like the dungon finder. Just going to add 2 things:
1 - WoW Progress mainly tracks US and English speaking European guilds. Exceptional non-English guilds are tracked. Asian guilds are pretty much not represented at all, there are listings for some Korean and Taiwanese but not many. Chinese guilds are not tracked at all.
2 - WoW Progress is updated by the players. WoW Progress doesnt scan Blizzard's Armory looking for raid achievements, when a guild makes a kill the guild leader will contact WoW Progress and the listings will be updated. And since WoW Progress is an English website that is a main reason why non-English guilds have low representation as described in the first point.
WoW Progress is just a tool to track overall and server raid progress, its not meant to be used as some empirical metric for total population raid participation.
Unless something has changed a lot since I stopped WoW, it does check armoury. It updates on a schedule via software that trawls the armoury. This update can be circumvented for the impatient by forcing it to update sooner by request.
Edit: Checked, yes as mentioned above nothing changed. Manual updates are available and it updates between a few days to weekly via the data crawler.
WoW Progress is just a tool to track overall and server raid progress, its not meant to be used as some empirical metric for total population raid participation.
"This isn't a WoW-specific issue or even one limited to MMOs. Gamers from all disciplines seem to be fond of complaining about games being easy without actually attempting anything to accomplish difficult. Big Huge Games noted in a GDC 2012 talk that "too easy" was a common complaint about Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, even though two-thirds of its players completed it on the easiest difficulty setting. BioWare's awesome infographic for Mass Effect 3, shown at last week's PAX East, showed that only four percent of players completed the game on "Insanity" difficulty. The "hardcore" in text don't seem to be all that "hardcore" in practice."
"So the next time you find yourself typing "too easy" in a comment box, maybe you should consider whether you've actually tried the hard stuff before you click the post button."
This is so true. Many other examples. WOW's famous Sunwell is done only by 2%. Even when LFR first came out, the "normal" mode is done only by 4% where LFR is done by a whopping 35% of the players.
Take D3 as another example. You can make the game highly difficulty with perma death. How many kill Diablo on MP10 hard core?
Hard modes and "insanity" settings are bandaids that add little or NO value to the gaming experience.
When hardcore players say they want hardmode they want the whole game to be hard so it builds community. Getting to level cap in older MMOs used to be a real acomplishment and it was usally impossible to solo through. Getting the Everquest EPIC done was a huge deal that took months and lot of team work. It wasn't something you just solo'ed though in a single weekend. Without community backing you weren't getting that epic done. So you kind of had to play the social game as well and that is what made it really hard. Players had to unite in the adversity of the more difficult game world. That is what hardmode is really about.
So when people say hardmode what they are really saying is they want community and sence of purpose. This a fundamental human want that will never go away. Modern games don't fill this human need though. It is a psycological aspect that makes those older games work.
Comments
Actually in WoW, most people do raid.....its the hardmodes that very few people do (hense the point of the article). LFR was a great addition in that sense.
MMORPGs are easier and dumbed down now, i dont understand how someone cant grasp that. It is rather simple, for starters there is no way to pick difficult setting in a massive online game unlike single player games, this effectivily means that the game has to be developed around a single parameter of difficulty. Now the definition of whats easy or hard varies alot from player to player but it is common sense that if a MMORPGs sets the bar too high it will unavoidabily push alot of the regular gamers away.
With that in mind the difficulty of the game is set on the easier side so to cater to the most possible community, the same can be applyed to "dumbing down" games, alot of the gamers out there dont wanna have to deal with something that is very complex and hard to grasp by making the game simpler you can make it easier for more players to get into the game and enjoy.
It is just a logical bussness solution, you wanna be able to attract the most players and since the ammount of average/casual gamers far exceeds the hardcore ones a MMORPG will obviously be designed around them.
Yes but it also goes deeper than that sometimes.
A game is released, in a group, it turns out that if you die, you can run back before the fight ends and continue to help the group...because of THAT, people start REZ ZERGING all content because that makes it EASY...instead of actually LEARNING how to NOT die.
Dieing = easy.
Not dieing = hard.
Because easy, is easier...why learn how not to die? Because not dieing is hard!
Either way, because you can do it easy and choose to do it easy, suddenly hard doesnt exist and so...complain. Even though, now, you CANT DO THAT ANYMORE. So, go back and play it, turns out the game is TOO HARD because you dont know how to actually play...complain.
taadaa, MMO way of thinking.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Actually I don't think thats true at all. Even with LFR using WoWprogress, depending on the numbers you use show that between 25,000 and 60,000 guilds have completed a raid, Average guild size is about 25 (yes there are many more, yes there are many less as there are both 25 and 10 man raids),
This is 1.5 million, which is only 15% of the games population.
Yes I know these are not exact number, they are very very rough numbers, but they are the only actual numbers we have to go on.
Even give a 100% fault with this, that is still only 30%.
Most accounts in WoW do not raid, or even have a max level character.
People don't need a guild to LFR. And if you LFR, it does not necessarily show up as a completion in your guild.
mmo-champion has some numbers when LFR first came out. The number is more like 35% of players completing the DS LFR raid after a month or two after the raid was released. The number is like 4% for the normal one.
I think when people say 'easy' it needs clarification.
Here's a more detailed explination of what I think is the 'core' issue. I'll use D3 as an example.
The first time you run a character through D3 it is easy. The second time it is easy. The third time it's more difficult, but you've already done the game twice before. You want to try another class, you have to play 2 easy versions of the same game and content 2 more times per character before you reach the 'challenge'.
The problem isn't that the end game is easy. The problem is you have to play the game on easy mode to the point of ad naseum to reach the challenge.
Grats! You won the game on easy mode. Now play it again a few more times and we'll present you with a challenge. Our game is challenging, as long as you have the patience to trudge through tedium to get there.
Games should challenge players from the moment they enter the game. Putting the challenge at the end, after playing the game a dozen times is not a 'difficult' game, it is a tedious one.
To me, that is the real complaint.
What MMO you can do that? You can't even do that in D3 (not a MMO) boss fight.
1) If you die, you cannot re-enter the instances after you rez outside. Usually the instance is locked.
2) If the group wipe, the boss reset.
What you said simply is not possible.
uh? Where have you been?
I can pick difficulty in DDO, and WOW (3 difficulty of raid, 2 difficulty of 5-man dungeon).
Could do it for instances in CoH too.
I don't know if the topic is worth exploring in this thread, but I'll ask anyway: what is it that makes not dying harder than dying? Or to put it more clearly, what makes a game where you can die many times harder than a game where you can only die once?
On one hand, you've got a normal game of Starcraft or whatever, fighting against the AI. On the other hand, you've got a Starcraft custom game where you control 5 Marines and have to take down a something-or-other without losing a single unit. Which is the harder game? In the real game, you need a lot of knowledge about the mechanics, ability to multitask, and macro strategies as well as manual dexterity for micro. It is clearly a more complex game that would take much longer to master than the minigame. Does the fact that you lose units constantly throughout the match make it an easier game? I think not.
Take the same concept and apply it to hit points. Instead of interpreting death as failure, treat injury as failure. There are some games where you can take several hits before you die. There are others where you die from a single hit. Would you say that one-hit-kill games are harder than games with a health meter? Would a one-hit-kill MMO (or RTS or fighting game or MOBA) be more challenging? I sure don't think so. Allowing for mistakes means the difficulty level can be planned around the fact that the player will take a lot of damage. This means there are more complex decisions to be made. The one-hit-kill game is inherently less complex because there's a more static risk-vs-reward system present. You don't get that "I have to change tactics when I get low on health" aspect.
This may sound crazy but you may want to actually read the quotes in what you are replying to...
What makes DIEING harder than not dieing...it doesnt take skill to die, it does take skill to not die, to learn the fight, to stay ahead on the healing curve...seriously, how can anyone even ask that question.
In fact, this probably should be a standard feature in MMOs. Clearly different people want different levels of difficulty, and clearly this is doable. There is little reason not to give it to them.
WoW progress is not tracking individual LFR progress, it tracks full Guild run Normal and heroic kills
ah, my mistake. Well I'll say the number is a bit higher, but still content the majority, as in over 50%, don't raid.
Not to go back and fourth with this, but I literally do not know a single active WoW player with a max level toon (mains, not alts) who has not at least done an LFR (I realise this sint the most compelling argument). LFR is done exactly like 5 man dungons, they are "easy", and you queue for them individually or as a group. I am willing to bet my life savings that LFR use is over 50%, just like the dungon finder.
Yes, you queue for LFR, and get grouped with 24 other random players. Thats the great thing about it, anyone can do it without investing oddles of time or even be in a guild. Of course max level toons would only come into play, the initial comment I responded to was talking about "end game raiding". My "over 50%" is refering to charecters capable of running endgame content. My apologies if that was not clear before.
Sort of related: Old School VS New School, the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7MDMdfcRfI
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
That was pretty well done.
Really? Show me a brand new max-level player who can raid hard mode effectively. The point of the article is not that there is no easy content in MMO, it is that there is difficult content, and people ignoring the challenges when they are complaining about games being "too easy". Of course it is easy if you don't even try the challenging content. Go do all the challenging content ... if that is still too easy, come back .. and may be then you have some credibility to rant.
Most people don't raid. Period. We know this from statistics of MMOs like WoW. Raiding is like a second job, and most people simply re-roll in these games instead, which is another reason why everyone is getting bored with the same old end-game raid design. The point is that the games should have some challenging content in-world too, not just faceroll gameplay that any half-awake idiot can do because their character is so overpowered, or hard-mode scripted raid content.
Actually in WoW, most people do raid.....its the hardmodes that very few people do (hense the point of the article). LFR was a great addition in that sense.
Actually I don't think thats true at all. Even with LFR using WoWprogress, depending on the numbers you use show that between 25,000 and 60,000 guilds have completed a raid, Average guild size is about 25 (yes there are many more, yes there are many less as there are both 25 and 10 man raids), This is 1.5 million, which is only 15% of the games population. Yes I know these are not exact number, they are very very rough numbers, but they are the only actual numbers we have to go on. Even give a 100% fault with this, that is still only 30%. Most accounts in WoW do not raid, or even have a max level character.
WoW progress is not tracking individual LFR progress, it tracks full Guild run Normal and heroic kills
ah, my mistake. Well I'll say the number is a bit higher, but still content the majority, as in over 50%, don't raid.
Not to go back and fourth with this, but I literally do not know a single active WoW player with a max level toon (mains, not alts) who has not at least done an LFR (I realise this sint the most compelling argument). LFR is done exactly like 5 man dungons, they are "easy", and you queue for them individually or as a group. I am willing to bet my life savings that LFR use is over 50%, just like the dungon finder.
Just going to add 2 things:
1 - WoW Progress mainly tracks US and English speaking European guilds. Exceptional non-English guilds are tracked. Asian guilds are pretty much not represented at all, there are listings for some Korean and Taiwanese but not many. Chinese guilds are not tracked at all.
2 - WoW Progress is updated by the players. WoW Progress doesnt scan Blizzard's Armory looking for raid achievements, when a guild makes a kill the guild leader will contact WoW Progress and the listings will be updated. And since WoW Progress is an English website that is a main reason why non-English guilds have low representation as described in the first point.
WoW Progress is just a tool to track overall and server raid progress, its not meant to be used as some empirical metric for total population raid participation.
Unless something has changed a lot since I stopped WoW, it does check armoury. It updates on a schedule via software that trawls the armoury. This update can be circumvented for the impatient by forcing it to update sooner by request.
Edit: Checked, yes as mentioned above nothing changed. Manual updates are available and it updates between a few days to weekly via the data crawler.
WoW Progress is just a tool to track overall and server raid progress, its not meant to be used as some empirical metric for total population raid participation.
^^This I agree with!
Hard modes and "insanity" settings are bandaids that add little or NO value to the gaming experience.
When hardcore players say they want hardmode they want the whole game to be hard so it builds community. Getting to level cap in older MMOs used to be a real acomplishment and it was usally impossible to solo through. Getting the Everquest EPIC done was a huge deal that took months and lot of team work. It wasn't something you just solo'ed though in a single weekend. Without community backing you weren't getting that epic done. So you kind of had to play the social game as well and that is what made it really hard. Players had to unite in the adversity of the more difficult game world. That is what hardmode is really about.
So when people say hardmode what they are really saying is they want community and sence of purpose. This a fundamental human want that will never go away. Modern games don't fill this human need though. It is a psycological aspect that makes those older games work.