As others have said, Kickstarter is equivalent of begging for money to start your development. They may or may not even make it to development (Most don't). You have to assume they will fail - just figure you are giving your money away to a beggar on the street because that is probably as much return as you will get (putting it bluntly).
There is a reason these projects went to get funding this way over the traditional way.
and what is the difference between that and investing in a startup?
Donation - an act or instance of presenting something as a gift, grant, or contribution.
Investment - money or capital used in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.
You will notice the words 'investment' and 'investor' do not appear anywhere on the Kickstarter site.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
As others have said, Kickstarter is equivalent of begging for money to start your development. They may or may not even make it to development (Most don't). You have to assume they will fail - just figure you are giving your money away to a beggar on the street because that is probably as much return as you will get (putting it bluntly).
There is a reason these projects went to get funding this way over the traditional way.
and what is the difference between that and investing in a startup?
Donation - an act or instance of presenting something as a gift, grant, or contribution.
Investment - money or capital used in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.
You will notice the words 'investment' and 'investor' do not appear anywhere on the Kickstarter site.
Your definitions are a bit confining. An investment doesn't have to be a financial investment where you get a dividend or can cash out a stock. You can invest in something for some sort of non-financial return, in this case "investors" get a product upon success or nothing upon failure.
It's also more than a donation because donations typically don't imply a return of some sort whereas the KS does, except at the lowest tiers.
I do agree though, it's not a financial investment and the "physical" return is minimal. The comparison to investing in a startup is way off base.
You are correct, an investment does not have to be financial. I was answering his question as to the difference between donating to Kickstarter and investing in a startup.
However, it is not more than a donation, and solicited donations commonly do have a return of some type, from return address stamps to tote bags that has been commonplace for since the medical society and non-profit telethons and postal mailings. The return is a show of gratitude and it is explicitly noted in most charity and donation drives that the donation is not payment for the gift, if for no other reason than such a transaction would be taxable.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Given how frequently Kickstarters are used as a pay-up-front model of business, I don't think it's fair to say that it's not more than a donation. At times, it is. It depends on the Kickstarter.
More often than not, that's all I see a Kickstarter as. You pay for the product up front, often allowing you to get a better deal on it. If enough people take advantage of the promotion, then the creators can be assured that the project will meet its funding goals. If they don't, then the project doesn't happen. Groupon basically does the same thing for existing businesses/products.
Given how frequently Kickstarters are used as a pay-up-front model of business, I don't think it's fair to say that it's not more than a donation. At times, it is. It depends on the Kickstarter.
More often than not, that's all I see a Kickstarter as. You pay for the product up front, often allowing you to get a better deal on it. If enough people take advantage of the promotion, then the creators can be assured that the project will meet its funding goals. If they don't, then the project doesn't happen. Groupon basically does the same thing for existing businesses/products.
Maybe it is a donation but i don't think a player who pledges 500 to 1000 on kickstarter thinks he is just donating the money.
Also people keep saying that devs start kickstarter to make the game that players want but to me they do this to make the games they want. And generally what devs want and the players want is not the same and even kickstarter can not guarantee that.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
Given how frequently Kickstarters are used as a pay-up-front model of business, I don't think it's fair to say that it's not more than a donation. At times, it is. It depends on the Kickstarter.
More often than not, that's all I see a Kickstarter as. You pay for the product up front, often allowing you to get a better deal on it. If enough people take advantage of the promotion, then the creators can be assured that the project will meet its funding goals. If they don't, then the project doesn't happen. Groupon basically does the same thing for existing businesses/products.
Maybe it is a donation but i don't think a player who pledges 500 to 1000 on kickstarter thinks he is just donating the money.
Also people keep saying that devs start kickstarter to make the game that players want but to me they do this to make the games they want. And generally what devs want and the players want is not the same and even kickstarter can not guarantee that.
I'd agree--if a player donates that much, they feel that they're getting something out of it, or at least expect to. At most reward levels, it's not a donation as much as a transaction. It's a transaction with a certain amount of risk, but not so much more than going to a restaurant or a movie--you have to pay even if what you got wasn't quite what you hoped for.
Regarding the latter: Devs are players. Quite often, the games they want to make are the games the players want. It's not like any two players want exactly the same thing. The point is, they're offering to make something that might appeal to a certain player population, and probably wouldn't be greenlighted otherwise. So it is a chance to have something that you want to play made. Besides, as a dev, one of the best pieces of advice you can follow is to make the game you want to play.
They are both a marketing tool to get the maximum amount of revenue from the customer to profit from the game. Both are valid, but we are heading into questionable practices with all this new "founder" and get in early marketing. At one time Betas use to be a tool used by companies to allow a group of dedicated gamers to help test and finish their game, NOW ..... it is another way to market your game for maximum profit. If anything should make people upset that should be the thing.
Given how frequently Kickstarters are used as a pay-up-front model of business, I don't think it's fair to say that it's not more than a donation.
An individual's misconception of the transaction does not change the type of transaction. That said, the misconception that one is doing anything more than simply donating is probably what gets a lot of Kickstarters funded.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Because humans are very very good at justifying whatever suits their fancy and criticizing other peoples actions, regardless how much those actions parallel each other.
As I pointed out in the other thread, the main value of Kickstarter is the general lack of risk. If the project folds, the donors get their money back. If there's not enough interest, the product doesn't get made.
It's not a GOOD thing when investors put money into a project that turns into a flop. It discourages investment in general. Kickstarter helps prevent that.
When Kickstarter is treated as a pay up-front model, it's a win-win. Unless of course you throw your money into something you don't believe in, but then you really have no one to blame but yourself.
That is part of it, but once the project begins and then folds, you get nothing back. That there is your risk.
Given how frequently Kickstarters are used as a pay-up-front model of business, I don't think it's fair to say that it's not more than a donation.
An individual's misconception of the transaction does not change the type of transaction. That said, the misconception that one is doing anything more than simply donating is probably what gets a lot of Kickstarters funded.
Maybe from a strictly legal/financial sense (and even from that perspective your assertion is questionable), but not in any meaningful sense.
As I pointed out in the other thread, the main value of Kickstarter is the general lack of risk. If the project folds, the donors get their money back. If there's not enough interest, the product doesn't get made.
It's not a GOOD thing when investors put money into a project that turns into a flop. It discourages investment in general. Kickstarter helps prevent that.
When Kickstarter is treated as a pay up-front model, it's a win-win. Unless of course you throw your money into something you don't believe in, but then you really have no one to blame but yourself.
That is part of it, but once the project begins and then folds, you get nothing back. That there is your risk.
Sometimes that's true--sometimes you will get something back. However, consider the alternative--one person/company funds the project in its entirety. For them, the loss is substantial, possibly devastating. For a player, it's generally just an inconvenience--they have money for one less video game (assuming they didn't donate big dollars). When you compare the risk, it's insignificant, especially considering that you more often than not you will get what you paid for.
Given how frequently Kickstarters are used as a pay-up-front model of business, I don't think it's fair to say that it's not more than a donation.
An individual's misconception of the transaction does not change the type of transaction. That said, the misconception that one is doing anything more than simply donating is probably what gets a lot of Kickstarters funded.
Maybe from a strictly legal/financial sense (and even from that perspective your assertion is questionable), but not in any meaningful sense.
Legal obligation and whether or not it is subject to taxation (on both sides) is irrelevant? Srsly?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
As I pointed out in the other thread, the main value of Kickstarter is the general lack of risk. If the project folds, the donors get their money back. If there's not enough interest, the product doesn't get made.
What lack of risk? If the project is funded, and later the project failed .. you don't get your money back. The project team can spend your money anyway they want .. and if no game is produced, there is nothign you can do.
As I pointed out in the other thread, the main value of Kickstarter is the general lack of risk. If the project folds, the donors get their money back. If there's not enough interest, the product doesn't get made.
It's not a GOOD thing when investors put money into a project that turns into a flop. It discourages investment in general. Kickstarter helps prevent that.
When Kickstarter is treated as a pay up-front model, it's a win-win. Unless of course you throw your money into something you don't believe in, but then you really have no one to blame but yourself.
That is part of it, but once the project begins and then folds, you get nothing back. That there is your risk.
Sometimes that's true--sometimes you will get something back. However, consider the alternative--one person/company funds the project in its entirety. For them, the loss is substantial, possibly devastating. For a player, it's generally just an inconvenience--they have money for one less video game (assuming they didn't donate big dollars). When you compare the risk, it's insignificant, especially considering that you more often than not you will get what you paid for.
Wow...lol
Hey man...want to help buy a bridge? I was going to do it myself, but maybe if I can get a bunch of other people to chip in, I won't risk MY money...help meh!!!
Originally posted by Distopia The only thing bad in this discussion is giving a crap what other people say about your decision in regard to this subject.
I agree with this. I don't do Kickstarter OR pre-orders for the most part ( I've done pre-orders TWICE) and I don't care what anyone says about my choices, neither should you. Do what feels right to you along these lines and let others do the same. I don't lose anything if Joe Blow decides to fund a Kickstarter with 2000 bucks. That's HIS deal. Leave him to it.
It's not ok to fund a kickstarter program and anyone that does is an idiot. Why? Because you encourage rewarding companies before they make the product, which ironicly causes them to put less effort in the product because they already got paid. This makes even less sense in Mark Jacobs case considering his only accomplishment in 10 years is Warhammer Online....
That said I have no right to tell you what to do with your money but I can sure make fun of you for wasting it.
Originally posted by Everwest As I pointed out in the other thread, the main value of Kickstarter is the general lack of risk. If the project folds, the donors get their money back. If there's not enough interest, the product doesn't get made.
What lack of risk? If the project is funded, and later the project failed .. you don't get your money back. The project team can spend your money anyway they want .. and if no game is produced, there is nothign you can do.
And this is the bit that supporters of KS don't seem to get. So long as the money is used up "legitimately", after a funding goal is met, in the development of a game or making a tech demo or whatever the stated goal is, and then, nothing comes of it and no game is released, the money is gone and that is the end of it. And no one can be sued for anything, and no one is owed anything.
Originally posted by Everwest As I pointed out in the other thread, the main value of Kickstarter is the general lack of risk. If the project folds, the donors get their money back. If there's not enough interest, the product doesn't get made.
What lack of risk? If the project is funded, and later the project failed .. you don't get your money back. The project team can spend your money anyway they want .. and if no game is produced, there is nothign you can do.
And this is the bit that supporters of KS don't seem to get. So long as the money is used up "legitimately", after a funding goal is met, in the development of a game or making a tech demo or whatever the stated goal is, and then, nothing comes of it and no game is released, the money is gone and that is the end of it. And no one can be sued for anything, and no one is owed anything.
If you dont preorder, the game will still release. Total Biscuit said to wait for reviews before buying. But you don't know for sure untill you try the game yourself, often a hyped game will not be to your liking. Sometimes a game with bland reviews will be right to your liking. So you have to cash out or play a demo to find out for sure.
If a kickstarter don't get funded the game will not be made at all, or be delayed. You decide if the presentation of the game is good enough for a judgement of the final product.
There is a small risk of the project to fail in the development of the game, they could run into unforseen problems, but there is risk in everything, and it's your money.
Don't stop loving things, just because there is a risk of losing them. Then you could walk through life without loving anything.
I'm too lazy to quote. Alright OP(that's overly pompous, not original poster. Bam! once more!) What you do not seem to realize that this topic you created was mostly spawned from the game Aliens Colonial Marines and the bullshit that happened with it. If you do not know what happened it was pretty much a scam on the level of Spring Time for Hitler.
Now to refute your claim that with preodering you have much more information through vids, pics, gameplay vids, dev commentary, etc. You actually get a fair amount of that from the decent kickstarters. Go check out Obsidian's, Wasteland 2, Cryamore.
As for preorders I have been burned personally myself, and let's look at all the people that preordered FF14 without playing it, or did look at play vids thinking it was not the final build.
Preorders now are not used as preorders anymore. Let's look at Aliens Colonial Marines. It sold at number 1 in the UK, and number 6 in the US. This atrocious piece of shit for a game sold at number fucking 1 and in the top god damned 10. No matter what reviews are written after, the money has been spent, and with companies like EA guess what they see that as? It needs a sequel, or more games that are similar.
Also this whole thing is pointless since we are arguing about people spending money on what they WANT. You can call someone an idiot for spending hundreds on a kickstarter, but you know what? I got to give it to them they are helping to fund an idea. Remember kickstarter funds are not sales numbers.
The more I'm around the forums on this site, the more bitter I become.
If a kickstarter don't get funded the game will not be made at all, or be delayed. You decide if the presentation of the game is good enough for a judgement of the final product.
There is no lack of fun games to play. Bioshock Infinte just came out. I still have no finished Borderland 2. There is no need to buy hope.
There is a small risk of the project to fail in the development of the game, they could run into unforseen problems, but there is risk in everything, and it's your money.
Small? How do you know it is small? Most small business fails. Do you know that? Yes, it is your money. I am more than happy if you want to risk it so i may have a game to buy later. But don't expect me to chip in.
Don't stop loving things, just because there is a risk of losing them. Then you could walk through life without loving anything.
I only love the things that at least exists. There are no lack of them. I don't love wishful thinking. However, you, of course, can love whatever you want to.
There is a small risk of the project to fail in the development of the game, they could run into unforseen problems, but there is risk in everything, and it's your money.
Small? How do you know it is small? Most small business fails. Do you know that? Yes, it is your money. I am more than happy if you want to risk it so i may have a game to buy later. But don't expect me to chip in.
Mark Jacobs is putting in 2 million on top of what the kickstarter collects. This project is 99% certain of happening.
Heck, if they run into problems they could release a unfinished game, and finish it after release. Mmorpgs are like that, especially DAOC back at the beginning
Comments
Donation - an act or instance of presenting something as a gift, grant, or contribution.
Investment - money or capital used in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.
You will notice the words 'investment' and 'investor' do not appear anywhere on the Kickstarter site.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You are correct, an investment does not have to be financial. I was answering his question as to the difference between donating to Kickstarter and investing in a startup.
However, it is not more than a donation, and solicited donations commonly do have a return of some type, from return address stamps to tote bags that has been commonplace for since the medical society and non-profit telethons and postal mailings. The return is a show of gratitude and it is explicitly noted in most charity and donation drives that the donation is not payment for the gift, if for no other reason than such a transaction would be taxable.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Given how frequently Kickstarters are used as a pay-up-front model of business, I don't think it's fair to say that it's not more than a donation. At times, it is. It depends on the Kickstarter.
More often than not, that's all I see a Kickstarter as. You pay for the product up front, often allowing you to get a better deal on it. If enough people take advantage of the promotion, then the creators can be assured that the project will meet its funding goals. If they don't, then the project doesn't happen. Groupon basically does the same thing for existing businesses/products.
Maybe it is a donation but i don't think a player who pledges 500 to 1000 on kickstarter thinks he is just donating the money.
Also people keep saying that devs start kickstarter to make the game that players want but to me they do this to make the games they want. And generally what devs want and the players want is not the same and even kickstarter can not guarantee that.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
I'd agree--if a player donates that much, they feel that they're getting something out of it, or at least expect to. At most reward levels, it's not a donation as much as a transaction. It's a transaction with a certain amount of risk, but not so much more than going to a restaurant or a movie--you have to pay even if what you got wasn't quite what you hoped for.
Regarding the latter: Devs are players. Quite often, the games they want to make are the games the players want. It's not like any two players want exactly the same thing. The point is, they're offering to make something that might appeal to a certain player population, and probably wouldn't be greenlighted otherwise. So it is a chance to have something that you want to play made. Besides, as a dev, one of the best pieces of advice you can follow is to make the game you want to play.
An individual's misconception of the transaction does not change the type of transaction. That said, the misconception that one is doing anything more than simply donating is probably what gets a lot of Kickstarters funded.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That is part of it, but once the project begins and then folds, you get nothing back. That there is your risk.
Maybe from a strictly legal/financial sense (and even from that perspective your assertion is questionable), but not in any meaningful sense.
Sometimes that's true--sometimes you will get something back. However, consider the alternative--one person/company funds the project in its entirety. For them, the loss is substantial, possibly devastating. For a player, it's generally just an inconvenience--they have money for one less video game (assuming they didn't donate big dollars). When you compare the risk, it's insignificant, especially considering that you more often than not you will get what you paid for.
Legal obligation and whether or not it is subject to taxation (on both sides) is irrelevant? Srsly?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What lack of risk? If the project is funded, and later the project failed .. you don't get your money back. The project team can spend your money anyway they want .. and if no game is produced, there is nothign you can do.
Wow...lol
Hey man...want to help buy a bridge? I was going to do it myself, but maybe if I can get a bunch of other people to chip in, I won't risk MY money...help meh!!!
I agree with this. I don't do Kickstarter OR pre-orders for the most part ( I've done pre-orders TWICE) and I don't care what anyone says about my choices, neither should you. Do what feels right to you along these lines and let others do the same. I don't lose anything if Joe Blow decides to fund a Kickstarter with 2000 bucks. That's HIS deal. Leave him to it.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
It's not ok to fund a kickstarter program and anyone that does is an idiot. Why? Because you encourage rewarding companies before they make the product, which ironicly causes them to put less effort in the product because they already got paid. This makes even less sense in Mark Jacobs case considering his only accomplishment in 10 years is Warhammer Online....
That said I have no right to tell you what to do with your money but I can sure make fun of you for wasting it.
What lack of risk? If the project is funded, and later the project failed .. you don't get your money back. The project team can spend your money anyway they want .. and if no game is produced, there is nothign you can do.
And this is the bit that supporters of KS don't seem to get. So long as the money is used up "legitimately", after a funding goal is met, in the development of a game or making a tech demo or whatever the stated goal is, and then, nothing comes of it and no game is released, the money is gone and that is the end of it. And no one can be sued for anything, and no one is owed anything.What lack of risk? If the project is funded, and later the project failed .. you don't get your money back. The project team can spend your money anyway they want .. and if no game is produced, there is nothign you can do.
And this is the bit that supporters of KS don't seem to get. So long as the money is used up "legitimately", after a funding goal is met, in the development of a game or making a tech demo or whatever the stated goal is, and then, nothing comes of it and no game is released, the money is gone and that is the end of it. And no one can be sued for anything, and no one is owed anything.This.
If you dont preorder, the game will still release. Total Biscuit said to wait for reviews before buying. But you don't know for sure untill you try the game yourself, often a hyped game will not be to your liking. Sometimes a game with bland reviews will be right to your liking. So you have to cash out or play a demo to find out for sure.
If a kickstarter don't get funded the game will not be made at all, or be delayed. You decide if the presentation of the game is good enough for a judgement of the final product.
There is a small risk of the project to fail in the development of the game, they could run into unforseen problems, but there is risk in everything, and it's your money.
Don't stop loving things, just because there is a risk of losing them. Then you could walk through life without loving anything.
I'm too lazy to quote. Alright OP(that's overly pompous, not original poster. Bam! once more!) What you do not seem to realize that this topic you created was mostly spawned from the game Aliens Colonial Marines and the bullshit that happened with it. If you do not know what happened it was pretty much a scam on the level of Spring Time for Hitler.
Now to refute your claim that with preodering you have much more information through vids, pics, gameplay vids, dev commentary, etc. You actually get a fair amount of that from the decent kickstarters. Go check out Obsidian's, Wasteland 2, Cryamore.
As for preorders I have been burned personally myself, and let's look at all the people that preordered FF14 without playing it, or did look at play vids thinking it was not the final build.
Preorders now are not used as preorders anymore. Let's look at Aliens Colonial Marines. It sold at number 1 in the UK, and number 6 in the US. This atrocious piece of shit for a game sold at number fucking 1 and in the top god damned 10. No matter what reviews are written after, the money has been spent, and with companies like EA guess what they see that as? It needs a sequel, or more games that are similar.
Also this whole thing is pointless since we are arguing about people spending money on what they WANT. You can call someone an idiot for spending hundreds on a kickstarter, but you know what? I got to give it to them they are helping to fund an idea. Remember kickstarter funds are not sales numbers.
The more I'm around the forums on this site, the more bitter I become.
Mark Jacobs is putting in 2 million on top of what the kickstarter collects. This project is 99% certain of happening.
Heck, if they run into problems they could release a unfinished game, and finish it after release. Mmorpgs are like that, especially DAOC back at the beginning
Why is it bad to pre order a game but ok to pledge hundreds..maybe thousands on kickstarter?
Because its our damn money. We earned it, stole it, and borrowed it so if I pre order a game or pledge in kickstarter then its my business.
If fools keep buying into monthly fees or buying the same game over and over (CoD style) then let me pre order and pledge all I want.