I don't think we have been given much choice in the matter. Since almost every game has been made to be or switched to free to play, we can't make any comparisons. I think where we will maybe see some real data will be when a really good game is released that is subscription in a market saturated by F2P and it ends up doing quite well, then I'd say EA is wrong and if it does poorly despite it's high quality, then EA is correct.
Although, anecdotally, World of Warcraft is still doing very well with subscriptions, despite the supposed F2P preference of gamers, that is fairly indicative of the falsehood of their statement. By their statement, players would have demanded WoW switch to F2P years ago and made it happen. I rarely read anyone even hinting at it, let alone a gamer's movement that would indicate the widespread paradigm shift they talk about. It feels more like an industry forced change than that brought about by the gamers themselves.
I don't think we have been given much choice in the matter. Since almost every game has been made to be or switched to free to play, we can't make any comparisons. I think where we will maybe see some real data will be when a really good game is released that is subscription in a market saturated by F2P and it ends up doing quite well, then I'd say EA is wrong and if it does poorly despite it's high quality, then EA is correct.
You did before. People don't vote P2P with the wallets and feet. So F2P took over.
I don't think we have been given much choice in the matter. Since almost every game has been made to be or switched to free to play, we can't make any comparisons. I think where we will maybe see some real data will be when a really good game is released that is subscription in a market saturated by F2P and it ends up doing quite well, then I'd say EA is wrong and if it does poorly despite it's high quality, then EA is correct.
You did before. People don't vote P2P with the wallets and feet. So F2P took over.
but that shift hasn't been because of the players. it's big publishing companies trying to maximize profits.
I don't think we have been given much choice in the matter. Since almost every game has been made to be or switched to free to play, we can't make any comparisons. I think where we will maybe see some real data will be when a really good game is released that is subscription in a market saturated by F2P and it ends up doing quite well, then I'd say EA is wrong and if it does poorly despite it's high quality, then EA is correct.
You did before. People don't vote P2P with the wallets and feet. So F2P took over.
but that shift hasn't been because of the players. it's big publishing companies trying to maximize profits.
No it wasn't. 1 or two games went f2p and many more people tried them. A couple other publishers tried a f2p trial and got many more people.
The people chose the f2p games, so more devs followed suit.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I don't think we have been given much choice in the matter. Since almost every game has been made to be or switched to free to play, we can't make any comparisons. I think where we will maybe see some real data will be when a really good game is released that is subscription in a market saturated by F2P and it ends up doing quite well, then I'd say EA is wrong and if it does poorly despite it's high quality, then EA is correct.
You did before. People don't vote P2P with the wallets and feet. So F2P took over.
but that shift hasn't been because of the players. it's big publishing companies trying to maximize profits.
No it wasn't. 1 or two games went f2p and many more people tried them. A couple other publishers tried a f2p trial and got many more people.
The people chose the f2p games, so more devs followed suit.
Market saturation had a lot to do with both occurances, you can only spread money so thin in any given market. Once quality games began having a F2P option other similar games had to follow suit to be competetive. Muffins was partly right in that companies are trying to maximize profits but not to game the players, it's to stay in business. That's why sub games with F2P options have done so well as opposed to strictly F2P.
The scary part is that as new titles come down the pike the playerbase could get spread even thinner, pending player growth of course. How will this bode for current F2P games? Those games had already been finished and went F2P because of low player numbers in their post launch/expansion stage. What about those in production now like NW? We've already seen a drop in released titles though so maybe the player growth will rise and cover. It'll be interesting to see what payment model MMOs go with over the next few years.
Originally posted by TheJoda ....F the market data. I will pay if the game is good enuff, and has a great core like AA , or how EQ did back in the day for example. Its all the kids that want everything free, and perfect NOW that ruin most mmos like content locust that move from one mmo to another after they rush to max level.
Yes. "F*** reality, I will create my own."
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I don't think we have been given much choice in the matter. Since almost every game has been made to be or switched to free to play, we can't make any comparisons. I think where we will maybe see some real data will be when a really good game is released that is subscription in a market saturated by F2P and it ends up doing quite well, then I'd say EA is wrong and if it does poorly despite it's high quality, then EA is correct.
You did before. People don't vote P2P with the wallets and feet. So F2P took over.
but that shift hasn't been because of the players. it's big publishing companies trying to maximize profits.
It takes more than companies to form a market.
If no one uses the cash shop, and everyone subs, companies cannot maximize profits doing F2P. The players have spoken. F2P is the way some of them will give money to companies. Players are not supporting P2P.
Provide numbers from SoE, or any company whos title that has a sub with a freemium option, that show the difference in revenue between cash shop sales and sub. Unless you don't count games that have any sort of sub. You know, that would exclude almost all western "F2P" MMOs.
The reason I bring this up is that the titles that have gone more towards the honor system of F2P (opening all of the game) haven't done well.
Originally posted by TheJoda Aint the model I like, I can afford to pay to play a game I enjoy!
Unfortunately having a long-term sub to a game like WoW is a bit like having a lunch pass for McDonalds. Yes, all those burgers may taste good initially, but do you really want to live off Big Macs for the rest of your entire life? The F2P MMO model allows players to have much more variety in their gaming diet easily, and that is for the good overall, I feel.
Originally posted by TheJoda Aint the model I like, I can afford to pay to play a game I enjoy!
Unfortunately having a long-term sub to a game like WoW is a bit like having a lunch pass for McDonalds. Yes, all those burgers may taste good initially, but do you really want to live off Big Macs for the rest of your entire life? The F2P MMO model allows players to have much more variety in their gaming diet easily, and that is for the good overall, I feel.
This ^^^^
It has nothing to do with whether one can afford a sub. It is the value. I can afford a sub .. that does not mean that i desire to pay a sub .. because there are so many free alternatives.
Originally posted by TheJoda Aint the model I like, I can afford to pay to play a game I enjoy!
Unfortunately having a long-term sub to a game like WoW is a bit like having a lunch pass for McDonalds. Yes, all those burgers may taste good initially, but do you really want to live off Big Macs for the rest of your entire life? The F2P MMO model allows players to have much more variety in their gaming diet easily, and that is for the good overall, I feel.
This ^^^^
It has nothing to do with whether one can afford a sub. It is the value. I can afford a sub .. that does not mean that i desire to pay a sub .. because there are so many free alternatives.
The problem is, I haven't seen any P2P games that are demonstrably any better than some of the F2P options out there. Why would you pay for something that is no more fun than something you can get for free? Actually, why would you play something at all that isn't fun? Makes no sense to me.
The problem is, I haven't seen any P2P games that are demonstrably any better than some of the F2P options out there. Why would you pay for something that is no more fun than something you can get for free? Actually, why would you play something at all that isn't fun? Makes no sense to me.
I have yet to find a game which I could see myself subscribed to. I play Eve because I can buy the game time with ingame currency with little to no effort, but to actually pay out of my own pocket? -Forget it! No MMOPRG is worth subscribing to considering the alternatives.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by TheJoda Aint the model I like, I can afford to pay to play a game I enjoy!
Unfortunately having a long-term sub to a game like WoW is a bit like having a lunch pass for McDonalds. Yes, all those burgers may taste good initially, but do you really want to live off Big Macs for the rest of your entire life? The F2P MMO model allows players to have much more variety in their gaming diet easily, and that is for the good overall, I feel.
This ^^^^
It has nothing to do with whether one can afford a sub. It is the value. I can afford a sub .. that does not mean that i desire to pay a sub .. because there are so many free alternatives.
The problem is, I haven't seen any P2P games that are demonstrably any better than some of the F2P options out there. Why would you pay for something that is no more fun than something you can get for free? Actually, why would you play something at all that isn't fun? Makes no sense to me.
Exactly.
It is all about competition. A top bone-in wagyu rib-eye steak is not going to be worth paying $150 for if the next steak house is selling something comparable for $15. It is the relative value that is important, not the absolute value.
I have yet to find a game which I could see myself subscribed to. I play Eve because I can buy the game time with ingame currency with little to no effort, but to actually pay out of my own pocket? -Forget it! No MMOPRG is worth subscribing to considering the alternatives.
How long did you subscribe to EVE to be able to afford to buy gametime with ISK?
Nope. The word "sampler" was invented by companies. Companies know if they can get you to try their product they have a greater chance of getting you hooked. Even better percentages than advertising. In gaming this benefits us because the game makers have only one week to convince us their game rocks. The pressure is on and they are forced to make better games. Everyone wins.
"Sampler". I like that. Reminds me of the people you see at the Cosco getting in line 15 times for sample hors d'oeuvres.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Nope. The word "sampler" was invented by companies. Companies know if they can get you to try their product they have a greater chance of getting you hooked. Even better percentages than advertising. In gaming this benefits us because the game makers have only one week to convince us their game rocks. The pressure is on and they are forced to make better games. Everyone wins.
"Sampler". I like that. Reminds me of the people you see at the Cosco getting in line 15 times for sample hors d'oeuvres.
It is way better. You don't have to get in line, and no one will give you the boot if you keep getting the free stuff.
Nope. The word "sampler" was invented by companies. Companies know if they can get you to try their product they have a greater chance of getting you hooked. Even better percentages than advertising. In gaming this benefits us because the game makers have only one week to convince us their game rocks. The pressure is on and they are forced to make better games. Everyone wins.
"Sampler". I like that. Reminds me of the people you see at the Cosco getting in line 15 times for sample hors d'oeuvres.
It is way better. You don't have to get in line, and no one will give you the boot if you keep getting the free stuff.
Erm... now we, as consumers, are saying that product trials are a bad thing?
In the coming years we are going to see more high quality f2p games and that is going to put a lot more pressure on the already unstable p2p market. Right now there would be no way for MOBA to be released at even the price of the box price and become successful with the number of high quality f2p ones on the market. We haven't seen a rush of MMOs built ground up with f2p in mind yet because of the amount of development time they take. Games that went in production five years ago are just now rolling into the market now and they were designed with the success of World of Warcraft in mind. That is why the conversion of so many p2p games into f2p games post-launch.
The market isn't only changing for the MMO market either. The FPS market is going to start seeing the shift as well with games like Blacklight, Planetside 2, and others pushing forward with it. Even Crytek is now dipping their toes in the market with Warfrace.
Shouldn't the long running p2p games like UO/DAOC/WOW/EVE be the best games out there as they spent the most on development as they got more money?
As monthly fees = best content in most posts i read here
EVE has an incredible amount of content & development behind it. Whether or not you like the basic gameplay is not the issue: no one can deny that CCP have spent vast resources on improving the game.
And the client is free
And they give a 2-week free trial.
And the expansions are free.
Plus if you're good enough at the game, or you just have lots of time available, you can play for free through the PLEX system.
EVE merits a subscription fee IMO. £8.33 per month is pretty reasonable for that deal IMO. This is the way subscription MMOs should be.
I have yet to find a game which I could see myself subscribed to. I play Eve because I can buy the game time with ingame currency with little to no effort, but to actually pay out of my own pocket? -Forget it! No MMOPRG is worth subscribing to considering the alternatives.
How long did you subscribe to EVE to be able to afford to buy gametime with ISK?
That's one of those "how long is a piece of string" questions.
The two factors are
(1) How smart you are and how quickly you "get" how the game works.
(2) How much time you're prepared to put into it.
Anyone should be able to PLEX a single account by the time they're three months in if they're willing to follow basic advice on how to do so and are willing to spend 10-15 hours a month grinding. On the other hand, it's not unknown for people still on their free trial to have raised sufficient ISK to buy a PLEX by employing the many more effective methods of earning ISK than grinding.
Shouldn't the long running p2p games like UO/DAOC/WOW/EVE be the best games out there as they spent the most on development as they got more money?
As monthly fees = best content in most posts i read here
EVE has an incredible amount of content & development behind it. Whether or not you like the basic gameplay is not the issue: no one can deny that CCP have spent vast resources on improving the game.
And the client is free
And they give a 2-week free trial.
And the expansions are free.
Plus if you're good enough at the game, or you just have lots of time available, you can play for free through the PLEX system.
EVE merits a subscription fee IMO. £8.33 per month is pretty reasonable for that deal IMO. This is the way subscription MMOs should be.
I think that's why the longer running MMOs can still go the subscription route while newer ones have trouble with it. MMOs like EVE and EQ have a decade or more of content from a dozen and a half expansions and established playerbases for new players to integrate into.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Nope. The word "sampler" was invented by companies. Companies know if they can get you to try their product they have a greater chance of getting you hooked. Even better percentages than advertising. In gaming this benefits us because the game makers have only one week to convince us their game rocks. The pressure is on and they are forced to make better games. Everyone wins.
"Sampler". I like that. Reminds me of the people you see at the Cosco getting in line 15 times for sample hors d'oeuvres.
It is way better. You don't have to get in line, and no one will give you the boot if you keep getting the free stuff.
Erm... now we, as consumers, are saying that product trials are a bad thing?
uh .. no. Where did i say it is a bad thing. Didn't i say "it is way better"?
The only people who would not want a try before you buy is one who doesn't believe their product is good enough to pay money for.
Really?
So everybody who sells food doesn't believe in their product? Everybody who sells furniture?
You see how foolish your statement is now.
Every restaurant I have been too: High end, mcdonalds, hotel... have provided a sample when I asked for it. Every single one.
In grocery stores I have tried their foods at other places before I bought them.
Every furntiure store I have ever been too has let me sit on the couch, lie on the bed... before I bought them. Every single one.
Your statement is foolish.
edit - I may not be able to try everything on the menu but I can try enough to decide if I like their food, just like a free trial.
Do they let you read the book, before you buy it... ?
Your anologies stop right there. Now try to deal with real world stuff and stop playing those silly games.
Companies are to support their subscribers... the reason MMORPG have died off is because they have been trying to support unpaid vistiors. The idea that every MMORPG has to have 5+ million people is absurd. The idea that other must "try it" before they buy it is absurd... for a premium mmorpg.
Now, if the game is just an arcade game... no big deal you presence and then lack of presence doesn't impact the game world. But, when you have 30k influx of "trial-tards" imploding a new game for 3 months.. , then leaving... leave a big whole on the economy and the long term players who did and will continue to support said game.
Such trial offers disrupt service and do not work... two-fold, bcuz if your customer doesn't have $30 bucks to start with... then chances are they eat MCDOnalds everydays and will be happy with any non-premium (thus mediocre) game.
Makes you wonder how all those kids did it playing Meridian & UO when internet was by the minute.. plus game sub. Makes you also wonder how teenagers today can't cut a few lawn a week to fuel their hobby... but instead seek handouts.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
The only people who would not want a try before you buy is one who doesn't believe their product is good enough to pay money for.
Really?
So everybody who sells food doesn't believe in their product? Everybody who sells furniture?
You see how foolish your statement is now.
Every restaurant I have been too: High end, mcdonalds, hotel... have provided a sample when I asked for it. Every single one.
In grocery stores I have tried their foods at other places before I bought them.
Every furntiure store I have ever been too has let me sit on the couch, lie on the bed... before I bought them. Every single one.
Your statement is foolish.
edit - I may not be able to try everything on the menu but I can try enough to decide if I like their food, just like a free trial.
Do they let you read the book, before you buy it... ?
Your anologies stop right there. Now try to deal with real world stuff and stop playing those silly games.
Companies are to support their subscribers... the reason MMORPG have died off is because they have been trying to support unpaid vistiors. The idea that every MMORPG has to have 5+ million people is absurd. The idea that other must "try it" before they buy it is absurd... for a premium mmorpg.
Now, if the game is just an arcade game... no big deal you presence and then lack of presence doesn't impact the game world. But, when you have 30k influx of "trial-tards" imploding a new game for 3 months.. , then leaving... leave a big whole on the economy and the long term players who did and will continue to support said game.
Such trial offers disrupt service and do not work... two-fold, bcuz if your customer doesn't have $30 bucks to start with... then chances are they eat MCDOnalds everydays and will be happy with any non-premium (thus mediocre) game.
Makes you wonder how all those kids did it playing Meridian & UO when internet was by the minute.. plus game sub. Makes you also wonder how teenagers today can't cut a few lawn a week to fuel their hobby... but instead seek handouts.
Actually kinda urks me when people go sit on Barnes & Noble's lounge chairs or at the snack bar and read like it was a library.
Comments
I don't think we have been given much choice in the matter. Since almost every game has been made to be or switched to free to play, we can't make any comparisons. I think where we will maybe see some real data will be when a really good game is released that is subscription in a market saturated by F2P and it ends up doing quite well, then I'd say EA is wrong and if it does poorly despite it's high quality, then EA is correct.
Although, anecdotally, World of Warcraft is still doing very well with subscriptions, despite the supposed F2P preference of gamers, that is fairly indicative of the falsehood of their statement. By their statement, players would have demanded WoW switch to F2P years ago and made it happen. I rarely read anyone even hinting at it, let alone a gamer's movement that would indicate the widespread paradigm shift they talk about. It feels more like an industry forced change than that brought about by the gamers themselves.
You did before. People don't vote P2P with the wallets and feet. So F2P took over.
but that shift hasn't been because of the players. it's big publishing companies trying to maximize profits.
No it wasn't. 1 or two games went f2p and many more people tried them. A couple other publishers tried a f2p trial and got many more people.
The people chose the f2p games, so more devs followed suit.
Market saturation had a lot to do with both occurances, you can only spread money so thin in any given market. Once quality games began having a F2P option other similar games had to follow suit to be competetive. Muffins was partly right in that companies are trying to maximize profits but not to game the players, it's to stay in business. That's why sub games with F2P options have done so well as opposed to strictly F2P.
The scary part is that as new titles come down the pike the playerbase could get spread even thinner, pending player growth of course. How will this bode for current F2P games? Those games had already been finished and went F2P because of low player numbers in their post launch/expansion stage. What about those in production now like NW? We've already seen a drop in released titles though so maybe the player growth will rise and cover. It'll be interesting to see what payment model MMOs go with over the next few years.
Yes. "F*** reality, I will create my own."
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
It takes more than companies to form a market.
If no one uses the cash shop, and everyone subs, companies cannot maximize profits doing F2P. The players have spoken. F2P is the way some of them will give money to companies. Players are not supporting P2P.
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
LOL
Provide numbers from SoE, or any company whos title that has a sub with a freemium option, that show the difference in revenue between cash shop sales and sub. Unless you don't count games that have any sort of sub. You know, that would exclude almost all western "F2P" MMOs.
The reason I bring this up is that the titles that have gone more towards the honor system of F2P (opening all of the game) haven't done well.
Unfortunately having a long-term sub to a game like WoW is a bit like having a lunch pass for McDonalds. Yes, all those burgers may taste good initially, but do you really want to live off Big Macs for the rest of your entire life? The F2P MMO model allows players to have much more variety in their gaming diet easily, and that is for the good overall, I feel.
This ^^^^
It has nothing to do with whether one can afford a sub. It is the value. I can afford a sub .. that does not mean that i desire to pay a sub .. because there are so many free alternatives.
The problem is, I haven't seen any P2P games that are demonstrably any better than some of the F2P options out there. Why would you pay for something that is no more fun than something you can get for free? Actually, why would you play something at all that isn't fun? Makes no sense to me.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I have yet to find a game which I could see myself subscribed to. I play Eve because I can buy the game time with ingame currency with little to no effort, but to actually pay out of my own pocket? -Forget it! No MMOPRG is worth subscribing to considering the alternatives.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Exactly.
It is all about competition. A top bone-in wagyu rib-eye steak is not going to be worth paying $150 for if the next steak house is selling something comparable for $15. It is the relative value that is important, not the absolute value.
How long did you subscribe to EVE to be able to afford to buy gametime with ISK?
"Sampler". I like that. Reminds me of the people you see at the Cosco getting in line 15 times for sample hors d'oeuvres.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
It is way better. You don't have to get in line, and no one will give you the boot if you keep getting the free stuff.
Erm... now we, as consumers, are saying that product trials are a bad thing?
In the coming years we are going to see more high quality f2p games and that is going to put a lot more pressure on the already unstable p2p market. Right now there would be no way for MOBA to be released at even the price of the box price and become successful with the number of high quality f2p ones on the market. We haven't seen a rush of MMOs built ground up with f2p in mind yet because of the amount of development time they take. Games that went in production five years ago are just now rolling into the market now and they were designed with the success of World of Warcraft in mind. That is why the conversion of so many p2p games into f2p games post-launch.
The market isn't only changing for the MMO market either. The FPS market is going to start seeing the shift as well with games like Blacklight, Planetside 2, and others pushing forward with it. Even Crytek is now dipping their toes in the market with Warfrace.
EVE has an incredible amount of content & development behind it. Whether or not you like the basic gameplay is not the issue: no one can deny that CCP have spent vast resources on improving the game.
And the client is free
And they give a 2-week free trial.
And the expansions are free.
Plus if you're good enough at the game, or you just have lots of time available, you can play for free through the PLEX system.
EVE merits a subscription fee IMO. £8.33 per month is pretty reasonable for that deal IMO. This is the way subscription MMOs should be.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
That's one of those "how long is a piece of string" questions.
The two factors are
(1) How smart you are and how quickly you "get" how the game works.
(2) How much time you're prepared to put into it.
Anyone should be able to PLEX a single account by the time they're three months in if they're willing to follow basic advice on how to do so and are willing to spend 10-15 hours a month grinding. On the other hand, it's not unknown for people still on their free trial to have raised sufficient ISK to buy a PLEX by employing the many more effective methods of earning ISK than grinding.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
I think that's why the longer running MMOs can still go the subscription route while newer ones have trouble with it. MMOs like EVE and EQ have a decade or more of content from a dozen and a half expansions and established playerbases for new players to integrate into.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
uh .. no. Where did i say it is a bad thing. Didn't i say "it is way better"?
Do they let you read the book, before you buy it... ?
Your anologies stop right there. Now try to deal with real world stuff and stop playing those silly games.
Companies are to support their subscribers... the reason MMORPG have died off is because they have been trying to support unpaid vistiors. The idea that every MMORPG has to have 5+ million people is absurd. The idea that other must "try it" before they buy it is absurd... for a premium mmorpg.
Now, if the game is just an arcade game... no big deal you presence and then lack of presence doesn't impact the game world. But, when you have 30k influx of "trial-tards" imploding a new game for 3 months.. , then leaving... leave a big whole on the economy and the long term players who did and will continue to support said game.
Such trial offers disrupt service and do not work... two-fold, bcuz if your customer doesn't have $30 bucks to start with... then chances are they eat MCDOnalds everydays and will be happy with any non-premium (thus mediocre) game.
Makes you wonder how all those kids did it playing Meridian & UO when internet was by the minute.. plus game sub. Makes you also wonder how teenagers today can't cut a few lawn a week to fuel their hobby... but instead seek handouts.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Actually kinda urks me when people go sit on Barnes & Noble's lounge chairs or at the snack bar and read like it was a library.