I honestly do not understand the vitriol against instancing. The ganking and farming issues aside, it would seem instancing provides the developer a way to tweak, adjust, and add portions of the game without shutting down the entire world. While some instancing seems a little excessive with wait times between emersion, others transition quite nicely. The ‘one world’ concept, I think, is great; but it would seem, historically and presently that you’d forfeit graphics or mechanics to get it. In this age of ‘realism’ and 80+ fps bragging, I don’t know anyone that would want that.
So, if you want one world, play an 8-bit hack and slash. Maybe we’ll see more streamlined instancing that the player barely sees in the near future.
Zero instance worked fine in AC2 and DFO dont see a problem with fighting over bosses or mats , it was never a problem in those games they handle it perfectly with randomness and willingnessby players to wait in AC2 people wait for respawn.
... While some instancing seems a little excessive with wait times between emersion, others transition quite nicely. The ‘one world’ concept, I think, is great; but it would seem, historically and presently that you’d forfeit graphics or mechanics to get it. In this age of ‘realism’ and 80+ fps bragging, I don’t know anyone that would want that.
So, if you want one world, play an 8-bit hack and slash. Maybe we’ll see more streamlined instancing that the player barely sees in the near future.
That's a big part of it too I guess.
What is important to the majority of gamers at the moment?
Is it story / plot? And if so are they only interested in their own story or the story of the whole 'world'?
Or is it gameplay? If so is it features and options or simply combat and DPS?
and how about graphics? Do they want photo-realism or are they prepared to be given the general form and fill in the rest with their own imaginations?
Some answers support instancing - some don't.
I guess from the developers point of view it's a matter of matching up those answers with the customers they want and the content they can deliver.
Do they want casual customers? Long term customers? "Hard Core" gamers or players just passing through who will stay just long enough to pay for costs?
I think instancing works for certain types of games - mainly pve based games where it can allow complex mechanics. Ideally I would like all dungeons being part of a persistant world, but these dungeons tend to be tank and spank and very little else.
1.) Provides an environment clean from disruptions allowing a full game experience. This means allowing for players to 'run through' say a dungeon without everything being dead and farmed before the bosses just as a rough example
...
3.) Allows for 'events' that would be impossible in an MMO setting, allowing for more story to be drive in game much like a Singleplayer game would despite being in a MMO setting that can't do that.
...
I was just reviewing the thread and thought I would comment a bit more on these two points.
These are often points raised by Devs to justify instancing - but IMHO they are not always valid.
It is possible to have open world dungeons (non-instanced) and locations where the monsters aren't all dead and players do get the 'full experience'.
It's a question of "Player Density" and that is something that can be planned and controlled (to a degree) by good design.
What that means is making sure that no one area or questline is overpopulated. You can do this by not focusing on a single story line which brings all players to the same location at the same time or character level. Quest hubs and the demand for shorter travel times (with fast travel options provided) only serve to increase player density.
Players who have ever played 'open' games will notice that at certain population levels the game seems to 'work' and have a better feel about it?
For example The Chronicles of Spellborn in the last year (?) before it closed had a player density that meant you could move a bit away from the towns and feel like you were in the wilderness. In the PvP zones the number of players meant that encounters were rare enough to be exciting - not frustrating. The game had open world dungeons and the player density when I played was at the point where you would sometimes meet other players and parties but it wasn't a certainty. Sometimes you would walk in on a fight and could assist people from other groups and different houses under an unofficial truce. It really had a wild west feel to it.
Vanguard at the moment also feels about right to me (although I haven't traveled far yet)
If you travel to zones like Evendim or Forochel in LotRO you get the same experience.
You find quest lines off the main story and locations that aren't being stomped on by all the powerlevelers just trying to get to level X-ty nine.
I have heard that in WoW there are some old locations and quest lines about that offer the same feel (don't play WoW - but some story about a haunted town and the ghost of a little girl?)
So, to me it's a question of design. If you plan to have a large open world and encourage players to write their own story - not all simply follow a single quest line like lemmings - then you can reduce the pressure on dungeons and locations.
This not "good design" its just having a scarce population. Even in Vanguard, which is all but dead, I encoutered other people frequently enough to run into cleared dungeons, and monsters spawning right on my face. Instanced content is guaranteed to be disruption free both toward the outside game world and within the instance. That rock solid guarantee is a big deal from a design stand point and it allows you to do more profound events and encounters within the instance.
And the "own story vs lemmings" is a false dichotomy, so just leave it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
So, to me it's a question of design. If you plan to have a large open world and encourage players to write their own story - not all simply follow a single quest line like lemmings - then you can reduce the pressure on dungeons and locations.
This not "good design" its just having a scarce population. Even in Vanguard, which is all but dead, I encoutered other people frequently enough to run into cleared dungeons, and monsters spawning right on my face. Instanced content is guaranteed to be disruption free both toward the outside game world and within the instance. That rock solid guarantee is a big deal from a design stand point and it allows you to do more profound events and encounters within the instance.
And the "own story vs lemmings" is a false dichotomy, so just leave it.
Actually "own story vs lemmings" is a misquotation. Since what I actually said was "encourage players to write their own story - not all simply follow a single quest line..."
The bit about lemmings was "like lemmings" which is a metaphor.
But this bit about the false dichotomy intrigues me... so much in fact that I want to know what you think the other options are?
The market is responding by the wave of "old, tried and failed ideas" coming
Shall we start the next "MMOs are DED! Doom!!!" thread right now, or wait for the next "big title" flop to start the next wave of general despair?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
So, to me it's a question of design. If you plan to have a large open world and encourage players to write their own story - not all simply follow a single quest line like lemmings - then you can reduce the pressure on dungeons and locations.
This not "good design" its just having a scarce population. Even in Vanguard, which is all but dead, I encoutered other people frequently enough to run into cleared dungeons, and monsters spawning right on my face. Instanced content is guaranteed to be disruption free both toward the outside game world and within the instance. That rock solid guarantee is a big deal from a design stand point and it allows you to do more profound events and encounters within the instance.
And the "own story vs lemmings" is a false dichotomy, so just leave it.
Actually "own story vs lemmings" is a misquotation. Since what I actually said was "encourage players to write their own story - not all simply follow a single quest line..."
The bit about lemmings was "like lemmings" which is a metaphor.
But this bit about the false dichotomy intrigues me... so much in fact that I want to know what you think the other options are?
It is a misquotation only if I used it as a quote. I shortened your strawman a bit. There is rarely a single questline, but set of questlines, many of them optional and/or parallel, and the whole "creating your own story" business is just fancy way of saying you're dicking about with no set objective. Its the way you phrase it, right?
No one is a lemming, and you're not creating your own story. Not really.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I honestly do not understand the vitriol against instancing. The ganking and farming issues aside, it would seem instancing provides the developer a way to tweak, adjust, and add portions of the game without shutting down the entire world. While some instancing seems a little excessive with wait times between emersion, others transition quite nicely. The ‘one world’ concept, I think, is great; but it would seem, historically and presently that you’d forfeit graphics or mechanics to get it. In this age of ‘realism’ and 80+ fps bragging, I don’t know anyone that would want that.
So, if you want one world, play an 8-bit hack and slash. Maybe we’ll see more streamlined instancing that the player barely sees in the near future.
Most of the vitriol comes from MMO gamers that are looking for that competitive nature that comes with "virtual world / persistant" type of gaming experiences. When you introduce an exclusive hiding place for people to do their MMO business in, you take away that competitive / social dynamic.
As for having to trade off game performance for a less modular architecture...your statement is true, but I think we can do a bit better than 8-bit (Super Mario Brothers for NES).
Lineage 2 was a poorly architected MMO, that was one of the first games of it's kind to use the Unreal Engine on a massive scale. The graphics aren't exactly state of the art, but for 2004, they were very nice...and still hold up reasonably well today. I remember castle sieges drawing 100 vs 100 in the same general area without crashes and reasonable framerates (provided you had a decent rig & video settings tuned appropriately)
But to that point, I think most of the folks looking for those virtual world / socially competitive MMO gaming experiences place ultra realistic 80+ fps performance a little lower on the totem pole than meaningful competitive content.
I've made the argument for a long time......A MMO with a simple isometric POV / Diablo III level of quality graphics matched with a good sandbox UO type experience would do well within that niche of MMOs.
Originally posted by Arakazi I think instancing works for certain types of games - mainly pve based games where it can allow complex mechanics. Ideally I would like all dungeons being part of a persistant world, but these dungeons tend to be tank and spank and very little else.
Very true....
Before starting WOW in 2006, my previous MMO experience was primarily with persistant world games (Ultima Online, SWG, Lineage 2). Dungeons in those games were essentially just another monster spawn point where you fought higher level monsters that dropped better loot. Boss monsters were, for the most part, tank n' spank (because of the logistical issues with having to deal with other people / groups)
As such, my dungeon crawling experience in L2 consisted of sitting in some side room in a dungeon with a party killing the same monsters over and over again for hours at a time (for optimal XP gains & chance at better loot)
When I first played WOW, it was a really refreshing expeirence getting to participate in an actual dungeon crawl with a group of people where there was a start & finish....with more interactive Boss fights. It was a nice change of pace.
BUT, the downfall with that model is that it eventually runs it's course and becomes just as mondain as the mindless monster farming in the persistant world dungeons.....only without the excitement associated with the competitive element (PvP opportunities over leveling / resource spots)
... There is rarely a single questline, but set of questlines, many of them optional and/or parallel, and the whole "creating your own story" business is just fancy way of saying you're dicking about with no set objective. Its the way you phrase it, right?
No one is a lemming, and you're not creating your own story. Not really.
There is often a single questline.
And in many games the parallel questlines are simple variences based on the class / race you choose.
For example in LotRO there are three starting areas (four if you know your way around) depending on your race.
And the missions in those areas are the same for any charcter that starts there. Every once in a while you get called on to do a class quest... but then you end up back on the main quest line.
Ultimately you end up in Bree and talking to Aragorn in the Prancing Pony no matter which starting area you start in. And off you go on the main quest line proper.
For many games - that's all there is. True there might be the odd side quest chain of three to four quests - but to progress you have to continue with the main / race / class questline.
To be fair - in the case of many games that's how it is because there simply isn't the content to support anything else - because content costs Dev Time.
But in some games (again to use LotRO as an example) you can - if you want to get off the main questline to a degree.
In LotRO you can (at about Level 20) go exploring and find other zones off the main questline. There will be links in those zones back to the main questline (sort of a designer's prompt: "Did you forget what you were supposed to be doing? Are you a bit lost? Go to visit this guy... and while you are there you should see that he has some other quests too.") But you can to a degree "write your own story".
And the point is - that away from the main questline there is less pressure on the dungeons. Sure - sometimes you might run into others running around in the same area as you - doing the same quests and killing the same mobs - but honestly the further away from the "Fellowship" quests you get (main questline) the less this happens. There are still lots of people there - but far better dispersed. Lower Player Density.
Under those conditions instancing is mostly not necessary.
There will be players like RajCaj:
"As such, my dungeon crawling experience in L2 consisted of sitting in some side room in a dungeon with a party killing the same monsters over and over again for hours at a time (for optimal XP gains & chance at better loot)"
But the problem there is not a matter of instancing or not (players can and do repeat instanced dungeons too) but allowing players to farm the same resource over and over. It also rests with the players, farming the game for stats rather than enjoying the experience for what it is supposed to be. Instancing doesn't fix that either.
Originally posted by emperorwings Should all be open world
+1
Instances are fine for lobby games, but real mmos that are massive, over doing it kills the feel. Makes them play more like lobby games, instead of mmos.
Originally posted by emperorwings Should all be open world
+1
Instances are fine for lobby games, but real mmos that are massive, over doing it kills the feel. Makes them play more like lobby games, instead of mmos.
Originally posted by Aelious Well that's why I said currently in development So two close, one not far from that (we'll see a reveal/demo in August) and a three down the road. With the rate of released MMOs slowing down I'd say six in the foreseeable future pretty great.
Oh, don't forget AoW, AA and Black Desert. Not sure what Instances AA has though.
AoW, BDO, and AA are not completely seamless.. AoW is about at zoned and instanced as they come... my point is any of the "down the road" games could easily be instanced games..only ones i have seen concrete design info on that say they will be seamless worlds are The repopulation and Origins of Malu... AA looks to have a huge world but even seige warfare is in its own instance.... just because they are more sandbox style doesn't mean they won't be heavily zoned/instanced games like Age of Wushu
On the subject of AoW, remember that bosses in forbidden instances summons pvp assassin to trash the party of that dungeon. It's one of my most favorite features, bringing pvp into pve mix and the assassins get rewarded for protecting the boss for about 10 minutes. So I guess you could Say AoW makes up for instancing dungeons by bringing pvpers to into the mix.
Comments
I honestly do not understand the vitriol against instancing. The ganking and farming issues aside, it would seem instancing provides the developer a way to tweak, adjust, and add portions of the game without shutting down the entire world. While some instancing seems a little excessive with wait times between emersion, others transition quite nicely. The ‘one world’ concept, I think, is great; but it would seem, historically and presently that you’d forfeit graphics or mechanics to get it. In this age of ‘realism’ and 80+ fps bragging, I don’t know anyone that would want that.
So, if you want one world, play an 8-bit hack and slash. Maybe we’ll see more streamlined instancing that the player barely sees in the near future.
That's a big part of it too I guess.
What is important to the majority of gamers at the moment?
Is it story / plot? And if so are they only interested in their own story or the story of the whole 'world'?
Or is it gameplay? If so is it features and options or simply combat and DPS?
and how about graphics? Do they want photo-realism or are they prepared to be given the general form and fill in the rest with their own imaginations?
Some answers support instancing - some don't.
I guess from the developers point of view it's a matter of matching up those answers with the customers they want and the content they can deliver.
Do they want casual customers? Long term customers? "Hard Core" gamers or players just passing through who will stay just long enough to pay for costs?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
This not "good design" its just having a scarce population. Even in Vanguard, which is all but dead, I encoutered other people frequently enough to run into cleared dungeons, and monsters spawning right on my face. Instanced content is guaranteed to be disruption free both toward the outside game world and within the instance. That rock solid guarantee is a big deal from a design stand point and it allows you to do more profound events and encounters within the instance.
And the "own story vs lemmings" is a false dichotomy, so just leave it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Actually "own story vs lemmings" is a misquotation. Since what I actually said was "encourage players to write their own story - not all simply follow a single quest line..."
The bit about lemmings was "like lemmings" which is a metaphor.
But this bit about the false dichotomy intrigues me... so much in fact that I want to know what you think the other options are?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Shall we start the next "MMOs are DED! Doom!!!" thread right now, or wait for the next "big title" flop to start the next wave of general despair?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
It is a misquotation only if I used it as a quote. I shortened your strawman a bit. There is rarely a single questline, but set of questlines, many of them optional and/or parallel, and the whole "creating your own story" business is just fancy way of saying you're dicking about with no set objective. Its the way you phrase it, right?
No one is a lemming, and you're not creating your own story. Not really.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Most of the vitriol comes from MMO gamers that are looking for that competitive nature that comes with "virtual world / persistant" type of gaming experiences. When you introduce an exclusive hiding place for people to do their MMO business in, you take away that competitive / social dynamic.
As for having to trade off game performance for a less modular architecture...your statement is true, but I think we can do a bit better than 8-bit (Super Mario Brothers for NES).
Lineage 2 was a poorly architected MMO, that was one of the first games of it's kind to use the Unreal Engine on a massive scale. The graphics aren't exactly state of the art, but for 2004, they were very nice...and still hold up reasonably well today. I remember castle sieges drawing 100 vs 100 in the same general area without crashes and reasonable framerates (provided you had a decent rig & video settings tuned appropriately)
But to that point, I think most of the folks looking for those virtual world / socially competitive MMO gaming experiences place ultra realistic 80+ fps performance a little lower on the totem pole than meaningful competitive content.
I've made the argument for a long time......A MMO with a simple isometric POV / Diablo III level of quality graphics matched with a good sandbox UO type experience would do well within that niche of MMOs.
Very true....
Before starting WOW in 2006, my previous MMO experience was primarily with persistant world games (Ultima Online, SWG, Lineage 2). Dungeons in those games were essentially just another monster spawn point where you fought higher level monsters that dropped better loot. Boss monsters were, for the most part, tank n' spank (because of the logistical issues with having to deal with other people / groups)
As such, my dungeon crawling experience in L2 consisted of sitting in some side room in a dungeon with a party killing the same monsters over and over again for hours at a time (for optimal XP gains & chance at better loot)
When I first played WOW, it was a really refreshing expeirence getting to participate in an actual dungeon crawl with a group of people where there was a start & finish....with more interactive Boss fights. It was a nice change of pace.
BUT, the downfall with that model is that it eventually runs it's course and becomes just as mondain as the mindless monster farming in the persistant world dungeons.....only without the excitement associated with the competitive element (PvP opportunities over leveling / resource spots)
There is often a single questline.
And in many games the parallel questlines are simple variences based on the class / race you choose.
For example in LotRO there are three starting areas (four if you know your way around) depending on your race.
And the missions in those areas are the same for any charcter that starts there. Every once in a while you get called on to do a class quest... but then you end up back on the main quest line.
Ultimately you end up in Bree and talking to Aragorn in the Prancing Pony no matter which starting area you start in. And off you go on the main quest line proper.
For many games - that's all there is. True there might be the odd side quest chain of three to four quests - but to progress you have to continue with the main / race / class questline.
To be fair - in the case of many games that's how it is because there simply isn't the content to support anything else - because content costs Dev Time.
But in some games (again to use LotRO as an example) you can - if you want to get off the main questline to a degree.
In LotRO you can (at about Level 20) go exploring and find other zones off the main questline. There will be links in those zones back to the main questline (sort of a designer's prompt: "Did you forget what you were supposed to be doing? Are you a bit lost? Go to visit this guy... and while you are there you should see that he has some other quests too.") But you can to a degree "write your own story".
And the point is - that away from the main questline there is less pressure on the dungeons. Sure - sometimes you might run into others running around in the same area as you - doing the same quests and killing the same mobs - but honestly the further away from the "Fellowship" quests you get (main questline) the less this happens. There are still lots of people there - but far better dispersed. Lower Player Density.
Under those conditions instancing is mostly not necessary.
There will be players like RajCaj:
"As such, my dungeon crawling experience in L2 consisted of sitting in some side room in a dungeon with a party killing the same monsters over and over again for hours at a time (for optimal XP gains & chance at better loot)"
But the problem there is not a matter of instancing or not (players can and do repeat instanced dungeons too) but allowing players to farm the same resource over and over. It also rests with the players, farming the game for stats rather than enjoying the experience for what it is supposed to be. Instancing doesn't fix that either.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I am glad you do not dictate game design to all devs.
Obviously many disagree.
+1
Instances are fine for lobby games, but real mmos that are massive, over doing it kills the feel. Makes them play more like lobby games, instead of mmos.
Just play them like lobby games. Problem solved.
On the subject of AoW, remember that bosses in forbidden instances summons pvp assassin to trash the party of that dungeon. It's one of my most favorite features, bringing pvp into pve mix and the assassins get rewarded for protecting the boss for about 10 minutes. So I guess you could Say AoW makes up for instancing dungeons by bringing pvpers to into the mix.
i agree that instancing cheapens the world but i did enjoy EQ's Lost Dungeons of Norrath expansion
im ok w some instancing -- I dont like 100% instancing (like WOW dungeons)
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