I love how all the uber pvp players have to take it to the forums and attack anyone that enjoys pve. I play full loot games no issue, but the difference here is you CANT pvp without taking part in the PVE. You cant respawn and run back to the fight, unless you got guildies doing that PVE crap for you, and guess what, they will need protecting.
So many people posting here have NFI about how sandbox systems work. PVP is there to consume the items the PVE players are crafting. SOooo those uber guilds only after pvp will either chase off all PVE players destroying the game, or they learn to co-operate and help each other..... Lessons in life kids, you smack people too often soon enough it will screw YOUR life.
There is no running around in a set of armor for days on end, you will likely spend only 25% of your time engaging in pvp as the rest of the time you will be gathering stuff to replace the things you lost for been a noob.
You want constant PVP, this game will not be for you. You want constant PVE this game wont be for you. This is a game for people that enjoy risk and reward.
I think we have a different definition of "PvE". To me, crafting and building things is NOT PvE. PvE is when you fight (farm, really) dumb, static npc creatures for experience like in 99.99999% of the MMOs out there. I don't plan to PvP 100% of the time, either. I will do plenty of crafting and building things whenever I'm burnt out from straight pvp. But again, that is NOT PvE. That's more like PwP (Playing with the Environment).
That would be called PvE =-) Where the challenge comes from the world not a player.
I love how all the uber pvp players have to take it to the forums and attack anyone that enjoys pve. I play full loot games no issue, but the difference here is you CANT pvp without taking part in the PVE. You cant respawn and run back to the fight, unless you got guildies doing that PVE crap for you, and guess what, they will need protecting.
So many people posting here have NFI about how sandbox systems work. PVP is there to consume the items the PVE players are crafting. SOooo those uber guilds only after pvp will either chase off all PVE players destroying the game, or they learn to co-operate and help each other..... Lessons in life kids, you smack people too often soon enough it will screw YOUR life.
There is no running around in a set of armor for days on end, you will likely spend only 25% of your time engaging in pvp as the rest of the time you will be gathering stuff to replace the things you lost for been a noob.
You want constant PVP, this game will not be for you. You want constant PVE this game wont be for you. This is a game for people that enjoy risk and reward.
I think we have a different definition of "PvE". To me, crafting and building things is NOT PvE. PvE is when you fight (farm, really) dumb, static npc creatures for experience like in 99.99999% of the MMOs out there. I don't plan to PvP 100% of the time, either. I will do plenty of crafting and building things whenever I'm burnt out from straight pvp. But again, that is NOT PvE. That's more like PwP (Playing with the Environment).
That would be called PvE =-) Where the challenge comes from the world not a player.
You can bend the definition your way all you want, but you're only going to forever get yourself in fights with PvPer types since the common interpretation of PvE means fighting/farming npc mobs. I'm willing to bet the vast majority of PvPers don't mind the crafting/building system that Mark Jacobs is suggesting. I certainly don't have issue with it.
In a sandbox world there is room for every type of player, except those that dont like being killed by people. How is dying to a mob different to a player? People need to get over this objection and understand you can code a mob to kill 1,2 or 20 players. There is no difference if you are left naked.
Carebears just like the fact an NPC wont remember your name, flame you, taunt you and hunt you down for being a coward or a noob. I am not bashing people that like to fight NPC's, heck I spend 80%+ of my gaming time doing PVE but recent games remove the challenge of not knowing when you are going to get you butt kicked. You want to farm in safety or kill boss's there are games out there for you, but thousands of people love the rush you get when you escape 3 players when loaded with loot.
In the era of UO there were entire guilds of people that hunted PK's (gankers to the young kids) and they in turn got LOADS of crafters and gathers feeding them gear for the simple protection that being a member afforded.
I love how all the uber pvp players have to take it to the forums and attack anyone that enjoys pve. I play full loot games no issue, but the difference here is you CANT pvp without taking part in the PVE. You cant respawn and run back to the fight, unless you got guildies doing that PVE crap for you, and guess what, they will need protecting.
So many people posting here have NFI about how sandbox systems work. PVP is there to consume the items the PVE players are crafting. SOooo those uber guilds only after pvp will either chase off all PVE players destroying the game, or they learn to co-operate and help each other..... Lessons in life kids, you smack people too often soon enough it will screw YOUR life.
There is no running around in a set of armor for days on end, you will likely spend only 25% of your time engaging in pvp as the rest of the time you will be gathering stuff to replace the things you lost for been a noob.
You want constant PVP, this game will not be for you. You want constant PVE this game wont be for you. This is a game for people that enjoy risk and reward.
I think we have a different definition of "PvE". To me, crafting and building things is NOT PvE. PvE is when you fight (farm, really) dumb, static npc creatures for experience like in 99.99999% of the MMOs out there. I don't plan to PvP 100% of the time, either. I will do plenty of crafting and building things whenever I'm burnt out from straight pvp. But again, that is NOT PvE. That's more like PwP (Playing with the Environment).
That would be called PvE =-) Where the challenge comes from the world not a player.
You can bend the definition your way all you want, but you're only going to forever get yourself in fights with PvPer types since the common interpretation of PvE means fighting/farming npc mobs. I'm willing to bet the vast majority of PvPers don't mind the crafting/building system that Mark Jacobs is suggesting. I certainly don't have issue with it.
For PvEers it will depend on how complex those systems are. How they tie in with killing NPC's and how fun that is. Will there be quests (Does not have to mean WoW style) Will there be enough PvE content it can fill many days worth of playing without the need to kill a player. I get you will always be at risk of being attacked but there are many ways to deal with that. I loved the dungeons in DAoC, lots of PvE but the best ones had a risk of running into the other factions. If the PvE has even 75% of the depth that DAoC had, I will be in 100%
For PvEers it will depend on how complex those systems are. How they tie in with killing NPC's and how fun that is. Will there be quests (Does not have to mean WoW style) Will there be enough PvE content it can fill many days worth of playing without the need to kill a player. I get you will always be at risk of being attacked but there are many ways to deal with that. I loved the dungeons in DAoC, lots of PvE but the best ones had a risk of running into the other factions. If the PvE has even 75% of the depth that DAoC had, I will be in 100%
Well, I certainly hope Mark Jacobs doesn't cave into the demands of the PvEer types out there. If he caves even a little, it's a slippery slope. Before long, it turns into a mixed bag mmo like WAR, ESO, etc. Mediocre at everything, excelling at nothing. For once, I would like to see a gaming company have the balls to put all of their focus on PvP without PvE. You can find plenty of examples of PvE with a little PvP in the market already. CSE doesn't stand a chance to go head-to-head with WoW when it comes to PvE, as far as I'm concerned. It's all about the NICHE. That's how a small company survives in this dog eat dog world of capitalism. It needs to carve out a niche that none of the big boys are paying attention to. And in the mmo world, that means PvP. I'm cool with a complex crafting/building system, but I'm not cool with PvE experience treadmills sapping the energy out of PvP.
For PvEers it will depend on how complex those systems are. How they tie in with killing NPC's and how fun that is. Will there be quests (Does not have to mean WoW style) Will there be enough PvE content it can fill many days worth of playing without the need to kill a player. I get you will always be at risk of being attacked but there are many ways to deal with that. I loved the dungeons in DAoC, lots of PvE but the best ones had a risk of running into the other factions. If the PvE has even 75% of the depth that DAoC had, I will be in 100%
Well, I certainly hope Mark Jacobs doesn't cave into the demands of the PvEer types out there. If he caves even a little, it's a slippery slope. Before long, it turns into a mixed bag mmo like WAR, ESO, etc. Mediocre at everything, excelling at nothing. For once, I would like to see a gaming company have the balls to put all of their focus on PvP without PvE. You can find plenty of examples of PvE with a little PvP in the market already. CSE doesn't stand a chance to go head-to-head with WoW when it comes to PvE, as far as I'm concerned. It's all about the NICHE. That's how a small company survives in this dog eat dog world of capitalism. It needs to carve out a niche that none of the big boys are paying attention to. And in the mmo world, that means PvP. I'm cool with a complex crafting/building system, but I'm not cool with PvE experience treadmills sapping the energy out of PvP.
For me, I would like to see a true DAoC model. 66% PvP with 33% PvE thats awesome and open world. Where even the PvE leaves you at risk of PvP. DF is my fav PvE in DAoC. As a Minstrel I used to find a corner to hide in when we were about to lose control and I would Rogue it killing people doing PvE, small groups or 1-3 players. I cant remember the other dungeon where you started at each factions end and as you got closer to the center the better the loot but the center of the dungeon was each faction was working towards it as well. So the higher the risk of running into the other factions and being forced to RvR. I think that type of PvE is whats needed. Gives you the PvE break but also encourages PvP in the end. If they had the promise of that type of PvE, I would be there with my wallet in hand.
To make it clear: No PvE in CU means there is no xp gain through killing mobs. That is what Mark meant by it.
The game as a whole is a fantasy world with creatures in it as well as players. It is all very simple. Essentially every game is pve as human run characters simply reside within the environment the game creates. Mechanically speaking though within mmos PvE means progressing through the game not having to combat players. CU will offer this in some ways but through systems that impact realm progression within the overarching RvR mechanic.
It is simply a fantasy game version of Imperial expansionism which humans did for centuries/millennia. We still had to kill a lot of creatures and cut down trees to build crap. We progressed by utilizing the environment we live in. CU is trying to emulate this. You help your realm in whatever ways offered that can but may not include combat. Obviously if you play a combat class that is largely what is expected of you but RvR raiding may not be a required focus.
What there isn't are quest hubs sending you off to do traditional quests not related to RvR that offer xp gain. I can't imagine there is a kill 12 wolves quest because that is pointless. You may need to kill 12 wolves for skins for crafting but a crafter should be the one telling you they need it. The trick is that you have to dodge roaming hordes of vikings, arthurians(Britons) or rabid celts that may be in the area ... just like real life! Yay!
I want to add that yes RvR is mostly pvp centric. This scares a lot of players away. Please note though that the game is designed around old school server pride meaning your realm is there to back you up and they WILL care! It happened in Daoc and it can happen here. You will always have players to go raiding with and the world is mentioned to be very large and likely closely held territories will be far more secure to venture within (through fortified player keeps and player/guild run guards). There isn't full loot (but interesting other mechanics even tied into crafting from player loot) and you always have your main city territory to fall back too. There is to be a very low vertical progression as well so new players won't be too over powered. It is about fun more than realism but just like Daoc the game is designed through fantasy realism without being a simulator.
For PvEers it will depend on how complex those systems are. How they tie in with killing NPC's and how fun that is. Will there be quests (Does not have to mean WoW style) Will there be enough PvE content it can fill many days worth of playing without the need to kill a player. I get you will always be at risk of being attacked but there are many ways to deal with that. I loved the dungeons in DAoC, lots of PvE but the best ones had a risk of running into the other factions. If the PvE has even 75% of the depth that DAoC had, I will be in 100%
Well, I certainly hope Mark Jacobs doesn't cave into the demands of the PvEer types out there. If he caves even a little, it's a slippery slope. Before long, it turns into a mixed bag mmo like WAR, ESO, etc. Mediocre at everything, excelling at nothing. For once, I would like to see a gaming company have the balls to put all of their focus on PvP without PvE. You can find plenty of examples of PvE with a little PvP in the market already. CSE doesn't stand a chance to go head-to-head with WoW when it comes to PvE, as far as I'm concerned. It's all about the NICHE. That's how a small company survives in this dog eat dog world of capitalism. It needs to carve out a niche that none of the big boys are paying attention to. And in the mmo world, that means PvP. I'm cool with a complex crafting/building system, but I'm not cool with PvE experience treadmills sapping the energy out of PvP.
For me, I would like to see a true DAoC model. 66% PvP with 33% PvE thats awesome and open world. Where even the PvE leaves you at risk of PvP. DF is my fav PvE in DAoC. As a Minstrel I used to find a corner to hide in when we were about to lose control and I would Rogue it killing people doing PvE, small groups or 1-3 players. I cant remember the other dungeon where you started at each factions end and as you got closer to the center the better the loot but the center of the dungeon was each faction was working towards it as well. So the higher the risk of running into the other factions and being forced to RvR. I think that type of PvE is whats needed. Gives you the PvE break but also encourages PvP in the end. If they had the promise of that type of PvE, I would be there with my wallet in hand.
From what I gathered PvE is mostly about crafting. PvE meaning killing NPC critters. Gathering leather and such to craft armor for mainly PvP because it is after all PvP centered.
But if you are a crafter and/or PvE char you can and should join a PvP group trying to dismantle an enemies castle. Small, big group I don't know but I imagine if your realm has taken over a certain part of the map and there happens to be an enemy castle it would be a good idea to salvage those stones/ressources instead of burning them. To do that you need crafters afaik. And while doing it you also might run into one or the other grp trying to take the area/castle back.
Somewhere they said that there is a dungeon which was alive and had some RvR kind of thread to it. So that might lead to PvE encounters like PoC in DAoC. Getting closer to the middle means you might encounter enemies...
My estimate about the PvP to PvE ratio is a bit more towards the PvP side because if you PvE it will help or infulence PvP so I guess 75% PvP 25% PvE. And sure some ppl might go as high as 90% PvP but then who gathered the mats and crafts the armor you are wearing? Right, PvE chars!
Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
+1
Their PvE sounds like me saying a competitive card game in an MMO counts as PvP.
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
I see it as quite the opposite. The game from day 1 was proposed as a full time RvR game set within a role playing-like fantasy world. It is the core concept. Mobs and The Depths were always planned (the later to be financed through a stretch goal). Mark wants a pen on paper style RPG RvR game. Classes are to be complex just like in most rpg games.
The issue has actually simply been players not grasping what this game is trying to be. Once again it is about 3 pillars of game play:
1. RvR
2. Housing
3. Crafting
You can choose to participate is one or all of these areas but any contribution within any one area assists with the growth of your realm and therefore the progression of your character. Pvp is only part of one pillar but can affect all. You may not ever have to fight but can certainly become a victim of war ... or perhaps a large troll kills you when collecting berries.
From the sounds of it the pve part of the game (if we continue to call it that) is not meant to be about overwhelming your realm. I think only players will be able to do it. I've read some things about player controlled mobs and even mobs suited to your realm appearing when you control lands to shape it into your realms theme. These mobs are likely more aggressive to enemies than to your own but certainly isn't meant to drastically shape the battle. Realm controlled npcs like guards primarily are there to stop small off hour bands from easily taking over areas but no meant to wipe out entire player armies. The Depths itself is a living thing so is likely the largest pve-like component but rumored to again shape or change for or against your realm's control and even be affected by realms outside of it's control to assist in kicking your own realm out. This sounds a combination of pve mechanics (the living Depths) and something closer to Lotro monster vs humanoids pvmp but is outside of the normal open world so can be it's own thing.
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
I see it as quite the opposite. The game from day 1 was proposed as a full time RvR game set within a role playing-like fantasy world. It is the core concept. Mobs and The Depths were always planned (the later to be financed through a stretch goal). Mark wants a pen on paper style RPG RvR game. Classes are to be complex just like in most rpg games.
The issue has actually simply been players not grasping what this game is trying to be. Once again it is about 3 pillars of game play:
1. RvR
2. Housing
3. Crafting
You can choose to participate is one or all of these areas but any contribution within any one area assists with the growth of your realm and therefore the progression of your character. Pvp is only part of one pillar but can affect all. You may not ever have to fight but can certainly become a victim of war ... or perhaps a large troll kills you when collecting berries.
From the sounds of it the pve part of the game (if we continue to call it that) is not meant to be about overwhelming your realm. I think only players will be able to do it. I've read some things about player controlled mobs and even mobs suited to your realm appearing when you control lands to shape it into your realms theme. These mobs are likely more aggressive to enemies than to your own but certainly isn't meant to drastically shape the battle. Realm controlled npcs like guards primarily are there to stop small off hour bands from easily taking over areas but no meant to wipe out entire player armies. The Depths itself is a living thing so is likely the largest pve-like component but rumored to again shape or change for or against your realm's control and even be affected by realms outside of it's control to assist in kicking your own realm out. This sounds a combination of pve mechanics (the living Depths) and something closer to Lotro monster vs humanoids pvmp but is outside of the normal open world so can be it's own thing.
You have actually confirmed what the person you quoted meant.
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Tamanous
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
I see it as quite the opposite. The game from day 1 was proposed as a full time RvR game set within a role playing-like fantasy world. It is the core concept. Mobs and The Depths were always planned (the later to be financed through a stretch goal). Mark wants a pen on paper style RPG RvR game. Classes are to be complex just like in most rpg games.
The issue has actually simply been players not grasping what this game is trying to be. Once again it is about 3 pillars of game play:
1. RvR
2. Housing
3. Crafting
You can choose to participate is one or all of these areas but any contribution within any one area assists with the growth of your realm and therefore the progression of your character. Pvp is only part of one pillar but can affect all. You may not ever have to fight but can certainly become a victim of war ... or perhaps a large troll kills you when collecting berries.
From the sounds of it the pve part of the game (if we continue to call it that) is not meant to be about overwhelming your realm. I think only players will be able to do it. I've read some things about player controlled mobs and even mobs suited to your realm appearing when you control lands to shape it into your realms theme. These mobs are likely more aggressive to enemies than to your own but certainly isn't meant to drastically shape the battle. Realm controlled npcs like guards primarily are there to stop small off hour bands from easily taking over areas but no meant to wipe out entire player armies. The Depths itself is a living thing so is likely the largest pve-like component but rumored to again shape or change for or against your realm's control and even be affected by realms outside of it's control to assist in kicking your own realm out. This sounds a combination of pve mechanics (the living Depths) and something closer to Lotro monster vs humanoids pvmp but is outside of the normal open world so can be it's own thing.
The key thing to remember, as was mentioned above, is that I have always said that there would be no PvE leveling, not there would not be PvE. There has to be some PvE because of The Depths, guards, etc. but players cannot level through the acts that are normally associated with the PvE elements. Thus, if you want leather for crafting, well, buy it from other players to get it by killing/skinning. If you want to fully control The Depths, you'll have to kill the creatures (including other players' spirits) inhabiting it as well as dealing with TD itself.
But, and this isn't changing, and killing NPCs to level or getting quests to do so (which would be a lame workaround) are not and never have been part of the plan. It's not that I don't have anything against that but it's not what we told our Backers would be in this game.
Oh, and the thought that market research would point us in a certain direction, LOL, not happening. If I cared about market research or stuff like that might drive bigger numbers, I wouldn't be making this game.
The key thing to remember, as was mentioned above, is that I have always said that there would be no PvE leveling, not there would not be PvE. There has to be some PvE because of The Depths, guards, etc. but players cannot level through the acts that are normally associated with the PvE elements. Thus, if you want leather for crafting, well, buy it from other players to get it by killing/skinning. If you want to fully control The Depths, you'll have to kill the creatures (including other players' spirits) inhabiting it as well as dealing with TD itself.
But, and this isn't changing, and killing NPCs to level or getting quests to do so (which would be a lame workaround) are not and never have been part of the plan. It's not that I don't have anything against that but it's not what we told our Backers would be in this game.
Oh, and the thought that market research would point us in a certain direction, LOL, not happening. If I cared about market research or stuff like that might drive bigger numbers, I wouldn't be making this game.
Just wondering, you say "that there would be no PvE leveling", does that mean that if you kill some PvE creatures for i.e. crafting mats you don't get any skill points in your attack skill? If I kill f.e. 10000 boars and gather their hides my sword skill is still1? That seems to be a bit of a let down that might lead people not to hunt "boars" in the first place. But "boars" might be to high lvl for crafters so that would mean PvE people need to do PvP (to be able to hunt boars) even they only want to craft. Is there some kind of system in place that compensates for that? Like looting an enemy castle, city or something like that.. I get that the high lvl mats should come form PvP but unless a crafter can get at least a few basic to above basic mats it is kind of pointless to even consider PvE unless a crafter has to have those mats to lvl but then why would anyone sell those mats outside the guild? So some new crafters might have a problem getting mats.
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
I see it as quite the opposite. The game from day 1 was proposed as a full time RvR game set within a role playing-like fantasy world. It is the core concept. Mobs and The Depths were always planned (the later to be financed through a stretch goal). Mark wants a pen on paper style RPG RvR game. Classes are to be complex just like in most rpg games.
The issue has actually simply been players not grasping what this game is trying to be. Once again it is about 3 pillars of game play:
1. RvR
2. Housing
3. Crafting
You can choose to participate is one or all of these areas but any contribution within any one area assists with the growth of your realm and therefore the progression of your character. Pvp is only part of one pillar but can affect all. You may not ever have to fight but can certainly become a victim of war ... or perhaps a large troll kills you when collecting berries.
From the sounds of it the pve part of the game (if we continue to call it that) is not meant to be about overwhelming your realm. I think only players will be able to do it. I've read some things about player controlled mobs and even mobs suited to your realm appearing when you control lands to shape it into your realms theme. These mobs are likely more aggressive to enemies than to your own but certainly isn't meant to drastically shape the battle. Realm controlled npcs like guards primarily are there to stop small off hour bands from easily taking over areas but no meant to wipe out entire player armies. The Depths itself is a living thing so is likely the largest pve-like component but rumored to again shape or change for or against your realm's control and even be affected by realms outside of it's control to assist in kicking your own realm out. This sounds a combination of pve mechanics (the living Depths) and something closer to Lotro monster vs humanoids pvmp but is outside of the normal open world so can be it's own thing.
The key thing to remember, as was mentioned above, is that I have always said that there would be no PvE leveling, not there would not be PvE. There has to be some PvE because of The Depths, guards, etc. but players cannot level through the acts that are normally associated with the PvE elements. Thus, if you want leather for crafting, well, buy it from other players to get it by killing/skinning. If you want to fully control The Depths, you'll have to kill the creatures (including other players' spirits) inhabiting it as well as dealing with TD itself.
But, and this isn't changing, and killing NPCs to level or getting quests to do so (which would be a lame workaround) are not and never have been part of the plan. It's not that I don't have anything against that but it's not what we told our Backers would be in this game.
Oh, and the thought that market research would point us in a certain direction, LOL, not happening. If I cared about market research or stuff like that might drive bigger numbers, I wouldn't be making this game.
Yay. Now is there same realm collision detection like warhammer. I liked it against enemies, but drove me batty on my own realm mates.
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
I think it's a bit naive to assume PvE is going to be a large part of this game. Sounds more like wishful thinking on the part of PvEers than reality. What I don't get is why are PvEers whining and complaining when it's been set in stone from the beginning that this is going to be a PvP centric game? If you want PvE, there are plenty of options out there already. If you want something with a old-school daoc flavor + PvE, ESO is where you should be enjoying yourself. Don't ruin it for the rest of us PvPers who are waiting for a more pure pvp game unsoiled by the grindy PvE elements.
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
I think it's a bit naive to assume PvE is going to be a large part of this game. Sounds more like wishful thinking on the part of PvEers than reality. What I don't get is why are PvEers whining and complaining when it's been set in stone from the beginning that this is going to be a PvP centric game? If you want PvE, there are plenty of options out there already. If you want something with a old-school daoc flavor + PvE, ESO is where you should be enjoying yourself. Don't ruin it for the rest of us PvPers who are waiting for a more pure pvp game unsoiled by the grindy PvE elements.
Could be because the OP is making it sound like there will be great PvE in this game and PvE'ers should be happy with it.
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
I see it as quite the opposite. The game from day 1 was proposed as a full time RvR game set within a role playing-like fantasy world. It is the core concept. Mobs and The Depths were always planned (the later to be financed through a stretch goal). Mark wants a pen on paper style RPG RvR game. Classes are to be complex just like in most rpg games.
The issue has actually simply been players not grasping what this game is trying to be. Once again it is about 3 pillars of game play:
1. RvR
2. Housing
3. Crafting
You can choose to participate is one or all of these areas but any contribution within any one area assists with the growth of your realm and therefore the progression of your character. Pvp is only part of one pillar but can affect all. You may not ever have to fight but can certainly become a victim of war ... or perhaps a large troll kills you when collecting berries.
From the sounds of it the pve part of the game (if we continue to call it that) is not meant to be about overwhelming your realm. I think only players will be able to do it. I've read some things about player controlled mobs and even mobs suited to your realm appearing when you control lands to shape it into your realms theme. These mobs are likely more aggressive to enemies than to your own but certainly isn't meant to drastically shape the battle. Realm controlled npcs like guards primarily are there to stop small off hour bands from easily taking over areas but no meant to wipe out entire player armies. The Depths itself is a living thing so is likely the largest pve-like component but rumored to again shape or change for or against your realm's control and even be affected by realms outside of it's control to assist in kicking your own realm out. This sounds a combination of pve mechanics (the living Depths) and something closer to Lotro monster vs humanoids pvmp but is outside of the normal open world so can be it's own thing.
The key thing to remember, as was mentioned above, is that I have always said that there would be no PvE leveling, not there would not be PvE. There has to be some PvE because of The Depths, guards, etc. but players cannot level through the acts that are normally associated with the PvE elements. Thus, if you want leather for crafting, well, buy it from other players to get it by killing/skinning. If you want to fully control The Depths, you'll have to kill the creatures (including other players' spirits) inhabiting it as well as dealing with TD itself.
But, and this isn't changing, and killing NPCs to level or getting quests to do so (which would be a lame workaround) are not and never have been part of the plan. It's not that I don't have anything against that but it's not what we told our Backers would be in this game.
Oh, and the thought that market research would point us in a certain direction, LOL, not happening. If I cared about market research or stuff like that might drive bigger numbers, I wouldn't be making this game.
Hi Mark, nice to see you dropping by!
Speaking of NPCs, will we be able to summon and/or control (say, using loads of enemy skulls or souls - some kind of entry fee needed) battlefield giants or dragons? I dont have the Depths in mind, but open battlefield and not spirit pets but something HUGE. Well, unless you consider Michelle & Sandra`s dragons spirit pets...=)
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
I think it's a bit naive to assume PvE is going to be a large part of this game. Sounds more like wishful thinking on the part of PvEers than reality. What I don't get is why are PvEers whining and complaining when it's been set in stone from the beginning that this is going to be a PvP centric game? If you want PvE, there are plenty of options out there already. If you want something with a old-school daoc flavor + PvE, ESO is where you should be enjoying yourself. Don't ruin it for the rest of us PvPers who are waiting for a more pure pvp game unsoiled by the grindy PvE elements.
The title of this thread says the game will have pve. That alone will bring pve'ers to this thread with questions and thoughts. How is that trying to ruin the game?
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
I think it's a bit naive to assume PvE is going to be a large part of this game. Sounds more like wishful thinking on the part of PvEers than reality. What I don't get is why are PvEers whining and complaining when it's been set in stone from the beginning that this is going to be a PvP centric game? If you want PvE, there are plenty of options out there already. If you want something with a old-school daoc flavor + PvE, ESO is where you should be enjoying yourself. Don't ruin it for the rest of us PvPers who are waiting for a more pure pvp game unsoiled by the grindy PvE elements.
Could be because the OP is making it sound like there will be great PvE in this game and PvE'ers should be happy with it.
You can bet that these PvEers are going to whine and cry and demand their "entitlement" for equal respect as the PvPers. They'll start demanding experience for killing NPCs. That's how these MMOs get muddied over time. Crybabies get catered to which basically ruins the game overall. Like I said, a slippery slope. It's like the "Trials of Atlantis" fiasco all over again.
You can bet that these PvEers are going to whine and cry and demand their "entitlement" for equal respect as the PvPers. They'll start demanding experience for killing NPCs. That's how these MMOs get muddied over time. Crybabies get catered to which basically ruins the game overall. Like I said, a slippery slope. It's like the "Trials of Atlantis" fiasco all over again.
You forgot to include 'carebear' in your mindless rant...
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
I think it's a bit naive to assume PvE is going to be a large part of this game. Sounds more like wishful thinking on the part of PvEers than reality. What I don't get is why are PvEers whining and complaining when it's been set in stone from the beginning that this is going to be a PvP centric game? If you want PvE, there are plenty of options out there already. If you want something with a old-school daoc flavor + PvE, ESO is where you should be enjoying yourself. Don't ruin it for the rest of us PvPers who are waiting for a more pure pvp game unsoiled by the grindy PvE elements.
Could be because the OP is making it sound like there will be great PvE in this game and PvE'ers should be happy with it.
You can bet that these PvEers are going to whine and cry and demand their "entitlement" for equal respect as the PvPers. They'll start demanding experience for killing NPCs. That's how these MMOs get muddied over time. Crybabies get catered to which basically ruins the game overall. Like I said, a slippery slope. It's like the "Trials of Atlantis" fiasco all over again.
What should happen is people stop making posts trying to sell PvE'ers on be interested in this game.
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
I think it's a bit naive to assume PvE is going to be a large part of this game. Sounds more like wishful thinking on the part of PvEers than reality. What I don't get is why are PvEers whining and complaining when it's been set in stone from the beginning that this is going to be a PvP centric game? If you want PvE, there are plenty of options out there already. If you want something with a old-school daoc flavor + PvE, ESO is where you should be enjoying yourself. Don't ruin it for the rest of us PvPers who are waiting for a more pure pvp game unsoiled by the grindy PvE elements.
Yup OP just making wind, nothing has changed, move along =-) Post from Mark kills all hope for me and CU.
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
I think it's a bit naive to assume PvE is going to be a large part of this game. Sounds more like wishful thinking on the part of PvEers than reality. What I don't get is why are PvEers whining and complaining when it's been set in stone from the beginning that this is going to be a PvP centric game? If you want PvE, there are plenty of options out there already. If you want something with a old-school daoc flavor + PvE, ESO is where you should be enjoying yourself. Don't ruin it for the rest of us PvPers who are waiting for a more pure pvp game unsoiled by the grindy PvE elements.
Yup OP just making wind, nothing has changed, move along =-) Post from Mark kills all hope for me and CU.
And let that be a lesson to you! Only believe what comes from the horse's mouth.
Comments
That would be called PvE =-) Where the challenge comes from the world not a player.
You can bend the definition your way all you want, but you're only going to forever get yourself in fights with PvPer types since the common interpretation of PvE means fighting/farming npc mobs. I'm willing to bet the vast majority of PvPers don't mind the crafting/building system that Mark Jacobs is suggesting. I certainly don't have issue with it.
In a sandbox world there is room for every type of player, except those that dont like being killed by people. How is dying to a mob different to a player? People need to get over this objection and understand you can code a mob to kill 1,2 or 20 players. There is no difference if you are left naked.
Carebears just like the fact an NPC wont remember your name, flame you, taunt you and hunt you down for being a coward or a noob. I am not bashing people that like to fight NPC's, heck I spend 80%+ of my gaming time doing PVE but recent games remove the challenge of not knowing when you are going to get you butt kicked. You want to farm in safety or kill boss's there are games out there for you, but thousands of people love the rush you get when you escape 3 players when loaded with loot.
In the era of UO there were entire guilds of people that hunted PK's (gankers to the young kids) and they in turn got LOADS of crafters and gathers feeding them gear for the simple protection that being a member afforded.
For PvEers it will depend on how complex those systems are. How they tie in with killing NPC's and how fun that is. Will there be quests (Does not have to mean WoW style) Will there be enough PvE content it can fill many days worth of playing without the need to kill a player. I get you will always be at risk of being attacked but there are many ways to deal with that. I loved the dungeons in DAoC, lots of PvE but the best ones had a risk of running into the other factions. If the PvE has even 75% of the depth that DAoC had, I will be in 100%
Well, I certainly hope Mark Jacobs doesn't cave into the demands of the PvEer types out there. If he caves even a little, it's a slippery slope. Before long, it turns into a mixed bag mmo like WAR, ESO, etc. Mediocre at everything, excelling at nothing. For once, I would like to see a gaming company have the balls to put all of their focus on PvP without PvE. You can find plenty of examples of PvE with a little PvP in the market already. CSE doesn't stand a chance to go head-to-head with WoW when it comes to PvE, as far as I'm concerned. It's all about the NICHE. That's how a small company survives in this dog eat dog world of capitalism. It needs to carve out a niche that none of the big boys are paying attention to. And in the mmo world, that means PvP. I'm cool with a complex crafting/building system, but I'm not cool with PvE experience treadmills sapping the energy out of PvP.
For me, I would like to see a true DAoC model. 66% PvP with 33% PvE thats awesome and open world. Where even the PvE leaves you at risk of PvP. DF is my fav PvE in DAoC. As a Minstrel I used to find a corner to hide in when we were about to lose control and I would Rogue it killing people doing PvE, small groups or 1-3 players. I cant remember the other dungeon where you started at each factions end and as you got closer to the center the better the loot but the center of the dungeon was each faction was working towards it as well. So the higher the risk of running into the other factions and being forced to RvR. I think that type of PvE is whats needed. Gives you the PvE break but also encourages PvP in the end. If they had the promise of that type of PvE, I would be there with my wallet in hand.
To make it clear: No PvE in CU means there is no xp gain through killing mobs. That is what Mark meant by it.
The game as a whole is a fantasy world with creatures in it as well as players. It is all very simple. Essentially every game is pve as human run characters simply reside within the environment the game creates. Mechanically speaking though within mmos PvE means progressing through the game not having to combat players. CU will offer this in some ways but through systems that impact realm progression within the overarching RvR mechanic.
It is simply a fantasy game version of Imperial expansionism which humans did for centuries/millennia. We still had to kill a lot of creatures and cut down trees to build crap. We progressed by utilizing the environment we live in. CU is trying to emulate this. You help your realm in whatever ways offered that can but may not include combat. Obviously if you play a combat class that is largely what is expected of you but RvR raiding may not be a required focus.
What there isn't are quest hubs sending you off to do traditional quests not related to RvR that offer xp gain. I can't imagine there is a kill 12 wolves quest because that is pointless. You may need to kill 12 wolves for skins for crafting but a crafter should be the one telling you they need it. The trick is that you have to dodge roaming hordes of vikings, arthurians(Britons) or rabid celts that may be in the area ... just like real life! Yay!
I want to add that yes RvR is mostly pvp centric. This scares a lot of players away. Please note though that the game is designed around old school server pride meaning your realm is there to back you up and they WILL care! It happened in Daoc and it can happen here. You will always have players to go raiding with and the world is mentioned to be very large and likely closely held territories will be far more secure to venture within (through fortified player keeps and player/guild run guards). There isn't full loot (but interesting other mechanics even tied into crafting from player loot) and you always have your main city territory to fall back too. There is to be a very low vertical progression as well so new players won't be too over powered. It is about fun more than realism but just like Daoc the game is designed through fantasy realism without being a simulator.
You stay sassy!
From what I gathered PvE is mostly about crafting. PvE meaning killing NPC critters. Gathering leather and such to craft armor for mainly PvP because it is after all PvP centered.
But if you are a crafter and/or PvE char you can and should join a PvP group trying to dismantle an enemies castle. Small, big group I don't know but I imagine if your realm has taken over a certain part of the map and there happens to be an enemy castle it would be a good idea to salvage those stones/ressources instead of burning them. To do that you need crafters afaik. And while doing it you also might run into one or the other grp trying to take the area/castle back.
Somewhere they said that there is a dungeon which was alive and had some RvR kind of thread to it. So that might lead to PvE encounters like PoC in DAoC. Getting closer to the middle means you might encounter enemies...
My estimate about the PvP to PvE ratio is a bit more towards the PvP side because if you PvE it will help or infulence PvP so I guess 75% PvP 25% PvE. And sure some ppl might go as high as 90% PvP but then who gathered the mats and crafts the armor you are wearing? Right, PvE chars!
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
+1
Their PvE sounds like me saying a competitive card game in an MMO counts as PvP.
I see it as quite the opposite. The game from day 1 was proposed as a full time RvR game set within a role playing-like fantasy world. It is the core concept. Mobs and The Depths were always planned (the later to be financed through a stretch goal). Mark wants a pen on paper style RPG RvR game. Classes are to be complex just like in most rpg games.
The issue has actually simply been players not grasping what this game is trying to be. Once again it is about 3 pillars of game play:
1. RvR
2. Housing
3. Crafting
You can choose to participate is one or all of these areas but any contribution within any one area assists with the growth of your realm and therefore the progression of your character. Pvp is only part of one pillar but can affect all. You may not ever have to fight but can certainly become a victim of war ... or perhaps a large troll kills you when collecting berries.
From the sounds of it the pve part of the game (if we continue to call it that) is not meant to be about overwhelming your realm. I think only players will be able to do it. I've read some things about player controlled mobs and even mobs suited to your realm appearing when you control lands to shape it into your realms theme. These mobs are likely more aggressive to enemies than to your own but certainly isn't meant to drastically shape the battle. Realm controlled npcs like guards primarily are there to stop small off hour bands from easily taking over areas but no meant to wipe out entire player armies. The Depths itself is a living thing so is likely the largest pve-like component but rumored to again shape or change for or against your realm's control and even be affected by realms outside of it's control to assist in kicking your own realm out. This sounds a combination of pve mechanics (the living Depths) and something closer to Lotro monster vs humanoids pvmp but is outside of the normal open world so can be it's own thing.
You stay sassy!
I see it as quite the opposite. The game from day 1 was proposed as a full time RvR game set within a role playing-like fantasy world. It is the core concept. Mobs and The Depths were always planned (the later to be financed through a stretch goal). Mark wants a pen on paper style RPG RvR game. Classes are to be complex just like in most rpg games.
The issue has actually simply been players not grasping what this game is trying to be. Once again it is about 3 pillars of game play:
1. RvR
2. Housing
3. Crafting
You can choose to participate is one or all of these areas but any contribution within any one area assists with the growth of your realm and therefore the progression of your character. Pvp is only part of one pillar but can affect all. You may not ever have to fight but can certainly become a victim of war ... or perhaps a large troll kills you when collecting berries.
From the sounds of it the pve part of the game (if we continue to call it that) is not meant to be about overwhelming your realm. I think only players will be able to do it. I've read some things about player controlled mobs and even mobs suited to your realm appearing when you control lands to shape it into your realms theme. These mobs are likely more aggressive to enemies than to your own but certainly isn't meant to drastically shape the battle. Realm controlled npcs like guards primarily are there to stop small off hour bands from easily taking over areas but no meant to wipe out entire player armies. The Depths itself is a living thing so is likely the largest pve-like component but rumored to again shape or change for or against your realm's control and even be affected by realms outside of it's control to assist in kicking your own realm out. This sounds a combination of pve mechanics (the living Depths) and something closer to Lotro monster vs humanoids pvmp but is outside of the normal open world so can be it's own thing.
You have actually confirmed what the person you quoted meant.The key thing to remember, as was mentioned above, is that I have always said that there would be no PvE leveling, not there would not be PvE. There has to be some PvE because of The Depths, guards, etc. but players cannot level through the acts that are normally associated with the PvE elements. Thus, if you want leather for crafting, well, buy it from other players to get it by killing/skinning. If you want to fully control The Depths, you'll have to kill the creatures (including other players' spirits) inhabiting it as well as dealing with TD itself.
But, and this isn't changing, and killing NPCs to level or getting quests to do so (which would be a lame workaround) are not and never have been part of the plan. It's not that I don't have anything against that but it's not what we told our Backers would be in this game.
Oh, and the thought that market research would point us in a certain direction, LOL, not happening. If I cared about market research or stuff like that might drive bigger numbers, I wouldn't be making this game.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Just wondering, you say "that there would be no PvE leveling", does that mean that if you kill some PvE creatures for i.e. crafting mats you don't get any skill points in your attack skill? If I kill f.e. 10000 boars and gather their hides my sword skill is still1? That seems to be a bit of a let down that might lead people not to hunt "boars" in the first place. But "boars" might be to high lvl for crafters so that would mean PvE people need to do PvP (to be able to hunt boars) even they only want to craft. Is there some kind of system in place that compensates for that? Like looting an enemy castle, city or something like that.. I get that the high lvl mats should come form PvP but unless a crafter can get at least a few basic to above basic mats it is kind of pointless to even consider PvE unless a crafter has to have those mats to lvl but then why would anyone sell those mats outside the guild? So some new crafters might have a problem getting mats.
Yay. Now is there same realm collision detection like warhammer. I liked it against enemies, but drove me batty on my own realm mates.
I think it's a bit naive to assume PvE is going to be a large part of this game. Sounds more like wishful thinking on the part of PvEers than reality. What I don't get is why are PvEers whining and complaining when it's been set in stone from the beginning that this is going to be a PvP centric game? If you want PvE, there are plenty of options out there already. If you want something with a old-school daoc flavor + PvE, ESO is where you should be enjoying yourself. Don't ruin it for the rest of us PvPers who are waiting for a more pure pvp game unsoiled by the grindy PvE elements.
Could be because the OP is making it sound like there will be great PvE in this game and PvE'ers should be happy with it.
Hi Mark, nice to see you dropping by!
Speaking of NPCs, will we be able to summon and/or control (say, using loads of enemy skulls or souls - some kind of entry fee needed) battlefield giants or dragons? I dont have the Depths in mind, but open battlefield and not spirit pets but something HUGE. Well, unless you consider Michelle & Sandra`s dragons spirit pets...=)
The title of this thread says the game will have pve. That alone will bring pve'ers to this thread with questions and thoughts. How is that trying to ruin the game?
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
You can bet that these PvEers are going to whine and cry and demand their "entitlement" for equal respect as the PvPers. They'll start demanding experience for killing NPCs. That's how these MMOs get muddied over time. Crybabies get catered to which basically ruins the game overall. Like I said, a slippery slope. It's like the "Trials of Atlantis" fiasco all over again.
You forgot to include 'carebear' in your mindless rant...
What should happen is people stop making posts trying to sell PvE'ers on be interested in this game.
Yup OP just making wind, nothing has changed, move along =-) Post from Mark kills all hope for me and CU.
And let that be a lesson to you! Only believe what comes from the horse's mouth.