I've been reading a lot, and experiencing...A LOT, of anti-social gamers recently in newer titles. Specifically in Rift, Neverwinter, and SWTOR when I gave them a test-drive.
By anti-social, I mean PUG groups that act worse than your creepy next-door neighbor whom always yells at you about your cat running around your apartment at odd hours of the night.
I'm used to PUG groups being fun & enjoyable from previous titles like EQ1, SWG, AC1, AC2, etc etc. It was all about socializing, getting to meet new people, learning how to play classes better because that one magician could solo 9 mobs at once that were 3 levels above him, etc.
Nowadays if I EVER do a "pickup group" I'm left with mute ninja-looting immature children whom scoff at the thought of using real words rather than short abbreviated statements such as "Nope LOL", "u Mad?", or [insert expletives as an adjective followed by your instead of you're].
Instead of being nostalgic for gameplay of the past I'm starting to become nostalgic for the communities of the past .
-Bear
I think it is just a newer generation of gamers. I have met many nice people, much more than the dicks, but those jerks are all over the place now. My biggest peeve isn't so much the mute, let's rush as fast as we can to finish, PUGs as it is the chat channel donkies. Every day I see the same two or three people in chat trying to "outwit" each other and all it boils down to is homophobic "jokes" and sex with your mother. I firmly believe these types come from the console crowd and feel most at home playing a shooter and talking crap on a headset the entire night.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Well, looks like this thread is headed in the standard "horrible PuGs moan complain" direction.
Once upon a time, we would advise people who constantly railed about horrible pugs to maybe "Stop PuGing". It's the gamer-forum variant of shooting your own foot off, followed by complaining that your foot hurts.
The only other semi-effective tactic is to remind them that each and every one of their horrible PuG groups has exactly one thing in common.
Yeh.
It is silly when the option of not PUGing, and not using any of the LFD/LFR feature is there.
Don't want rude strangers? Find you friends and form a group. Don't want fast gameplay? Walk with your friend (if you can convince any) for 10 min and chat to your heart content.
If you can't convince anyone to follow your preferences, the problem is not the game. The problem is your power of persuasion.
I once followed a guy for over an hour in World of Warcraft and talked to him. I got reported for stalking.
A perfect example of how an online game should be. You don't need to put up with people stalking you.
Originally posted by emperorwings Because if WoWs dungeon finder where you get random people from other servers you'll probly never see again. So, people act like morons. That's how it started.
That is a load of BS, there have been jerks playing these games since UO and Meridian 59. I really wish people could look at the bigger picture and stop blaming WoW, or SOE, or EQ. Try and leave your personal biases out and actually see the whole thing...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Meanwhile in modern MMORPGs I can log on, get queued in immediately on my tank characters, and complete ~5 enjoyable dungeon runs or 1-2 raids in that same hour.
This ^^^
It is just preference. There is nothing wrong preferring to play a game than socializing with people. I am not obligated to socialize before i can play.
I've been reading a lot, and experiencing...A LOT, of anti-social gamers recently in newer titles. Specifically in Rift, Neverwinter, and SWTOR when I gave them a test-drive.
By anti-social, I mean PUG groups that act worse than your creepy next-door neighbor whom always yells at you about your cat running around your apartment at odd hours of the night.
I'm used to PUG groups being fun & enjoyable from previous titles like EQ1, SWG, AC1, AC2, etc etc. It was all about socializing, getting to meet new people, learning how to play classes better because that one magician could solo 9 mobs at once that were 3 levels above him, etc.
Nowadays if I EVER do a "pickup group" I'm left with mute ninja-looting immature children whom scoff at the thought of using real words rather than short abbreviated statements such as "Nope LOL", "u Mad?", or [insert expletives as an adjective followed by your instead of you're].
Instead of being nostalgic for gameplay of the past I'm starting to become nostalgic for the communities of the past .
-Bear
I think it is just a newer generation of gamers. I have met many nice people, much more than the dicks, but those jerks are all over the place now. My biggest peeve isn't so much the mute, let's rush as fast as we can to finish, PUGs as it is the chat channel donkies. Every day I see the same two or three people in chat trying to "outwit" each other and all it boils down to is homophobic "jokes" and sex with your mother. I firmly believe these types come from the console crowd and feel most at home playing a shooter and talking crap on a headset the entire night.
I think there is more jurks because of the way modern games work. Back in the day your name meant something. You could not pay a few bucks to change your name or change servers. Getting geared took forever so rerolling a new main char was a huge undertaking. Heck getting to top level alone was a mile stone in it self. Now you can get top level in a few days or pay 10 bucks to jump servers.
After WoW, because the game started to attract the FPS crowd(people who only cares about joining an arena, killing the enemy team, leaving and re-joining).
And so MMOs started to become FPS-like instant arenas for instant gratification, they are not about social interaction - open world - politics - pacience - and real consequences anymore.
I think there is more jurks because of the way modern games work. Back in the day your name meant something. You could not pay a few bucks to change your name or change servers. Getting geared took forever so rerolling a new main char was a huge undertaking. Heck getting to top level alone was a mile stone in it self. Now you can get top level in a few days or pay 10 bucks to jump servers.
All good. You don't have to stick with a server with people you don't like. You don't have to play the popularity game and play whatever way you want. You don't have to put up with anyone.
I've been reading a lot, and experiencing...A LOT, of anti-social gamers recently in newer titles. Specifically in Rift, Neverwinter, and SWTOR when I gave them a test-drive.
By anti-social, I mean PUG groups that act worse than your creepy next-door neighbor whom always yells at you about your cat running around your apartment at odd hours of the night.
I'm used to PUG groups being fun & enjoyable from previous titles like EQ1, SWG, AC1, AC2, etc etc. It was all about socializing, getting to meet new people, learning how to play classes better because that one magician could solo 9 mobs at once that were 3 levels above him, etc.
Nowadays if I EVER do a "pickup group" I'm left with mute ninja-looting immature children whom scoff at the thought of using real words rather than short abbreviated statements such as "Nope LOL", "u Mad?", or [insert expletives as an adjective followed by your instead of you're].
Instead of being nostalgic for gameplay of the past I'm starting to become nostalgic for the communities of the past .
-Bear
It is truly just a lack of consequences. I didn't start mmo's back in the "true" old school days but i did start in vanilla WoW. Back in vanilla WoW servers were small enough so that reputation mattered, if you ninja looted or were in general just a dick people knew about it, there were several people on my server who gained such infamy that they had to transfer. On the other end of the spectrum if you were a good quality player you had a much easier time getting groups and forming pick up raids and such. I remember logging into WoW in BC and instantly getting group invites just because people knew how well i could tank. This risk/reward led to an amazing community, at least on my server. Anonymity on the internet brings out the worst in people.
Originally posted by StonesDK Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by StonesDKPeople used to be dependent on each other for advancement, which put them on their best behavior. Names were remembered and people were blacklisted which could cripple you, if you wanted to experience end game. In EQ people would for the most part be stationary for a long time so if you had a bad rep, getting a spot on a list would be nearly impossible. Bad behavior had consequencesToday nobody remembers your name and even if they did, you can just plop down a little cash for a name change or a server move. Nobody cares.I don't necessarily think mentalities has changed. Games today just enables people to be themselves. Those like yourself, wanting a social experience get them from guilds instead and avoid the rabble as much as they can
Things have changed, but blacklisting isn't the reason why. There were thousands of people on a server to play with. Even "back in the day" there were more people than any person could effectively keep track of.It happened frequently. Back then you didn't have 50 guilds all doing raid content. You had a handful. I even remember a few guilds that were formed by bad apples because they couldn't get an invite to any of the key guilds that did content nobody else did. You see the top end content were only done by a small group of people. Not half the server and people talked and shared their bad experiences. If somebody stole something then it was a huge deal. Not like today where you are told to shut up if you mentioned being ninja'd from
The lower levels were a bit easier but again, because it took longer to advance, people didn't just race through, There weren't infinite group spots where one could hide. You would often come across the same people in your level bracket.
I guess you and I just have much different experiences with EQ. I wouldn't even try to argue this point if I didn't see it with my own eyes. Hell I even personally know people who had to re-roll. A poor mans namechange
It's just a numbers thing. Even a small percentage of 100,000 people is more people than any one human can effectively keep track of. There were too many people and the people were not integrated into a single hierarchy for blacklisting to be effective. It was at best a localized filter. Certainly a jerk could not go back to a group they've been blacklisted from, but any group one step removed from the blacklisting group would likely never have heard of them. Unless there was a group dedicated to policing the jerks and making sure that all the groups knew which people were blacklisted, it just wouldn't work.
Besides, blacklisting people so that nobody would play with them wouldn't be necessary. If someone is a jerk, they'd be a jerk pretty much everywhere and get kicked from whatever group they were in. Those people were blacklisting themselves. Either they would learn, and stop getting kicked or they wouldn't learn and eventually get pushed out of the game.
None of this even matters with automated PUGs. The process of getting into another PUG is too easy, and the process is too streamlined to really give someone a good chance of being a jerk. Everyone is kind of a jerk, so no one is a jerk.
I would think the solution is to join or start a guild. Then you can use the PUG tools to fill out groups if needed, but you can set the pace and experience yourself.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I would think the solution is to join or start a guild. Then you can use the PUG tools to fill out groups if needed, but you can set the pace and experience yourself.
Or just join the anti-social crowd and focus on playing the game instead.
People used to be dependent on each other for advancement, which put them on their best behavior. Names were remembered and people were blacklisted which could cripple you, if you wanted to experience end game. In EQ people would for the most part be stationary for a long time so if you had a bad rep, getting a spot on a list would be nearly impossible. Bad behavior had consequences
Today nobody remembers your name and even if they did, you can just plop down a little cash for a name change or a server move. Nobody cares.
I don't necessarily think mentalities has changed. Games today just enables people to be themselves. Those like yourself, wanting a social experience get them from guilds instead and avoid the rabble as much as they can
This.
People have not changed much. Nowadays you can just do shit and get away with it.
The simplest way to put it is that they already have their friends and aren't interested in talking to strangers. They play with their RL friends and guildmates. This kind of person will generally be rude, ninja loot and do whatever seems most beneficial to them, because strangers mean nothing to them.
People have not changed much. Nowadays you can just do shit and get away with it.
Yeh. Embrace the new freedom and have fun with it.
There's nothing fun about level-capping in a linear game when the best gear can be gotten by a couple people doing the same quest/instance/dungeon 30 times to get "[insert random dungeon currency here]" and then the only thing you have left to do is shit-talk in crappy arena games that mean nothing & earn you nothing except a win/loss score to shove in peoples faces in order to spout "L2P noob".
Am I the only one who doesn't care about a 100x100meter cube deathmatch gameplay in an MMO?
People must really enjoy things being handed to them.
The internet and games with it, are evolving. We have had our Dark Ages and Renaissance, now we are going through the Wild West portion of it. Lawless, immoral and loads of individuals that cannot be held accountable for their actions.
People have not changed much. Nowadays you can just do shit and get away with it.
Yeh. Embrace the new freedom and have fun with it.
There's nothing fun about level-capping in a linear game when the best gear can be gotten by a couple people doing the same quest/instance/dungeon 30 times to get "[insert random dungeon currency here]" and then the only thing you have left to do is shit-talk in crappy arena games that mean nothing & earn you nothing except a win/loss score to shove in peoples faces in order to spout "L2P noob".
Am I the only one who doesn't care about a 100x100meter cube deathmatch gameplay in an MMO?
People must really enjoy things being handed to them.
You're one of the few that doesn't see the value in the competition that it provides.
People have not changed much. Nowadays you can just do shit and get away with it.
Yeh. Embrace the new freedom and have fun with it.
There's nothing fun about level-capping in a linear game when the best gear can be gotten by a couple people doing the same quest/instance/dungeon 30 times to get "[insert random dungeon currency here]" and then the only thing you have left to do is shit-talk in crappy arena games that mean nothing & earn you nothing except a win/loss score to shove in peoples faces in order to spout "L2P noob".
Am I the only one who doesn't care about a 100x100meter cube deathmatch gameplay in an MMO?
People must really enjoy things being handed to them.
You are confusing what other enjoys and what you enjoy.
If it is not fun for them, why would millions be doing it? Of course it is fun (for them).
Well, I'm just going to compare PUGs in Everquest to PUGs in modern games I've played like Rift and SW:TOR and why I see a difference.
Often in Everquest you would join an xp grind group and might be grouped with the same people for many hours. In addition to that, combat in Everquest tended to be more slower paced (especially in the early days) with a lot of downtime where people would talk to eachother.
Contrast that with modern games, you might join a PUG that does a dungeon that lasts 20 minutes with very little downtime, there isn't much time (or need) to communicate.
Well, I'm just going to compare PUGs in Everquest to PUGs in modern games I've played like Rift and SW:TOR and why I see a difference.
Often in Everquest you would join an xp grind group and might be grouped with the same people for many hours. In addition to that, combat in Everquest tended to be more slower paced (especially in the early days) with a lot of downtime where people would talk to eachother.
Contrast that with modern games, you might join a PUG that does a dungeon that lasts 20 minutes with very little downtime, there isn't much time (or need) to communicate.
This is one reason that people recall better experiences in games such as EQ. In EQ it took forever to level and often times you would be grouping up for hours on end. Most of these people end up leveling around the same speed as yourself, grouping in the same zones each day and voila instant online friend.
Modern games are all about convenience and ease of play. Alot of people rush through content on their own, not needing help along the way. End game is where grouping begins and all those people who rushed through the content solo are just looking for much of the same in their dungeon or raid. Fill a spot, shut your trap and get it done. Not really very conducive to a friendly chatty atmosphere. Unless you like sitting around talking in guild chat....
We've got many fine examples of players from "communities of the past" here, on this site.
I'd describe a great many of them as misanthropes.
Basically, grumpy, nasty people are in no way restricted to the past, present, or future.
To be fair, earlier MMORPGs due to their terrible grouping mechanics and small populations actually did have a generally more social grouping environment.
It's just that the more social environment came at a sharp gameplay cost. You had to play a game which attracted a weak audience because it had weak gameplay, and then you had to suffer through early LFG mechanisms (or lack thereof) and then suffer the massive travel time to get to your group. So if you logged on for 3 hours, maybe more than an hour of that would be spent just getting where you wanted to go.
Meanwhile in modern MMORPGs I can log on, get queued in immediately on my tank characters, and complete ~5 enjoyable dungeon runs or 1-2 raids in that same hour.
I don't remember this wonderful community that existed before WoW. It was different, that is for sure. There were different "anti-social" behaviors going on in UO and EQ (the two I played the most). There wasn't the same amount of ninja looting and shit talking as today, but damn there were just as many assclowns. They didn't steal loot, they sat and ganked/griefed players in UO. They trained mobs to people in EQ. It was a different type of assclownery, but it was assclownery regardless.
I don't remember this wonderful community that existed before WoW. It was different, that is for sure. There were different "anti-social" behaviors going on in UO and EQ (the two I played the most). There wasn't the same amount of ninja looting and shit talking as today, but damn there were just as many assclowns. They didn't steal loot, they sat and ganked/griefed players in UO. They trained mobs to people in EQ. It was a different type of assclownery, but it was assclownery regardless.
Oh i remember all the horrible community back in EQ ... training, drama about camping queues and loot ....
I will take modern day LFD any day. At least i can hit the "group quit" button whenever i don't like it.
If I had to venture a guess....Elitist players across all games...that attitude makes people..not want to deal with you. I know quite a few people that are turned off to guilds for that reason..they prefer to pug and do the content.
Comments
I think it is just a newer generation of gamers. I have met many nice people, much more than the dicks, but those jerks are all over the place now. My biggest peeve isn't so much the mute, let's rush as fast as we can to finish, PUGs as it is the chat channel donkies. Every day I see the same two or three people in chat trying to "outwit" each other and all it boils down to is homophobic "jokes" and sex with your mother. I firmly believe these types come from the console crowd and feel most at home playing a shooter and talking crap on a headset the entire night.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
A perfect example of how an online game should be. You don't need to put up with people stalking you.
That is a load of BS, there have been jerks playing these games since UO and Meridian 59. I really wish people could look at the bigger picture and stop blaming WoW, or SOE, or EQ. Try and leave your personal biases out and actually see the whole thing...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
This ^^^
It is just preference. There is nothing wrong preferring to play a game than socializing with people. I am not obligated to socialize before i can play.
I think there is more jurks because of the way modern games work. Back in the day your name meant something. You could not pay a few bucks to change your name or change servers. Getting geared took forever so rerolling a new main char was a huge undertaking. Heck getting to top level alone was a mile stone in it self. Now you can get top level in a few days or pay 10 bucks to jump servers.
After WoW, because the game started to attract the FPS crowd(people who only cares about joining an arena, killing the enemy team, leaving and re-joining).
And so MMOs started to become FPS-like instant arenas for instant gratification, they are not about social interaction - open world - politics - pacience - and real consequences anymore.
All good. You don't have to stick with a server with people you don't like. You don't have to play the popularity game and play whatever way you want. You don't have to put up with anyone.
I see it as an improvement.
It is truly just a lack of consequences. I didn't start mmo's back in the "true" old school days but i did start in vanilla WoW. Back in vanilla WoW servers were small enough so that reputation mattered, if you ninja looted or were in general just a dick people knew about it, there were several people on my server who gained such infamy that they had to transfer. On the other end of the spectrum if you were a good quality player you had a much easier time getting groups and forming pick up raids and such. I remember logging into WoW in BC and instantly getting group invites just because people knew how well i could tank. This risk/reward led to an amazing community, at least on my server. Anonymity on the internet brings out the worst in people.
It happened frequently. Back then you didn't have 50 guilds all doing raid content. You had a handful. I even remember a few guilds that were formed by bad apples because they couldn't get an invite to any of the key guilds that did content nobody else did. You see the top end content were only done by a small group of people. Not half the server and people talked and shared their bad experiences. If somebody stole something then it was a huge deal. Not like today where you are told to shut up if you mentioned being ninja'd from
The lower levels were a bit easier but again, because it took longer to advance, people didn't just race through, There weren't infinite group spots where one could hide. You would often come across the same people in your level bracket.
I guess you and I just have much different experiences with EQ. I wouldn't even try to argue this point if I didn't see it with my own eyes. Hell I even personally know people who had to re-roll. A poor mans namechange
It's just a numbers thing. Even a small percentage of 100,000 people is more people than any one human can effectively keep track of. There were too many people and the people were not integrated into a single hierarchy for blacklisting to be effective. It was at best a localized filter. Certainly a jerk could not go back to a group they've been blacklisted from, but any group one step removed from the blacklisting group would likely never have heard of them. Unless there was a group dedicated to policing the jerks and making sure that all the groups knew which people were blacklisted, it just wouldn't work.
Besides, blacklisting people so that nobody would play with them wouldn't be necessary. If someone is a jerk, they'd be a jerk pretty much everywhere and get kicked from whatever group they were in. Those people were blacklisting themselves. Either they would learn, and stop getting kicked or they wouldn't learn and eventually get pushed out of the game.
None of this even matters with automated PUGs. The process of getting into another PUG is too easy, and the process is too streamlined to really give someone a good chance of being a jerk. Everyone is kind of a jerk, so no one is a jerk.
I would think the solution is to join or start a guild. Then you can use the PUG tools to fill out groups if needed, but you can set the pace and experience yourself.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Or just join the anti-social crowd and focus on playing the game instead.
Answer is pretty simple and others have said it in different words.
MMORPGs went mainstream
This.
People have not changed much. Nowadays you can just do shit and get away with it.
Yeh. Embrace the new freedom and have fun with it.
There's nothing fun about level-capping in a linear game when the best gear can be gotten by a couple people doing the same quest/instance/dungeon 30 times to get "[insert random dungeon currency here]" and then the only thing you have left to do is shit-talk in crappy arena games that mean nothing & earn you nothing except a win/loss score to shove in peoples faces in order to spout "L2P noob".
Am I the only one who doesn't care about a 100x100meter cube deathmatch gameplay in an MMO?
People must really enjoy things being handed to them.
You're one of the few that doesn't see the value in the competition that it provides.
You are confusing what other enjoys and what you enjoy.
If it is not fun for them, why would millions be doing it? Of course it is fun (for them).
Well, I'm just going to compare PUGs in Everquest to PUGs in modern games I've played like Rift and SW:TOR and why I see a difference.
Often in Everquest you would join an xp grind group and might be grouped with the same people for many hours. In addition to that, combat in Everquest tended to be more slower paced (especially in the early days) with a lot of downtime where people would talk to eachother.
Contrast that with modern games, you might join a PUG that does a dungeon that lasts 20 minutes with very little downtime, there isn't much time (or need) to communicate.
This is one reason that people recall better experiences in games such as EQ. In EQ it took forever to level and often times you would be grouping up for hours on end. Most of these people end up leveling around the same speed as yourself, grouping in the same zones each day and voila instant online friend.
Modern games are all about convenience and ease of play. Alot of people rush through content on their own, not needing help along the way. End game is where grouping begins and all those people who rushed through the content solo are just looking for much of the same in their dungeon or raid. Fill a spot, shut your trap and get it done. Not really very conducive to a friendly chatty atmosphere. Unless you like sitting around talking in guild chat....
I don't remember this wonderful community that existed before WoW. It was different, that is for sure. There were different "anti-social" behaviors going on in UO and EQ (the two I played the most). There wasn't the same amount of ninja looting and shit talking as today, but damn there were just as many assclowns. They didn't steal loot, they sat and ganked/griefed players in UO. They trained mobs to people in EQ. It was a different type of assclownery, but it was assclownery regardless.
Oh i remember all the horrible community back in EQ ... training, drama about camping queues and loot ....
I will take modern day LFD any day. At least i can hit the "group quit" button whenever i don't like it.