There is no solution to your querry because there is no single answer.
It's a matter of perspective. What is grind to you? To me? To John Doe over there?
Levels, gear, weapon stats, etc. are all timesinks/grinds, they are not reserved only to themeparks. However, if you are enjoying your time doing whatever it is you are doing in <insert game title here> then it is not a grind nor a time sink.
Einstein proved it with the theory of relativity and like it not, it also applies here. 'Time flies when you're having fun' ring a bell?
It's all subjective to what you find enjoyable and what you do not and most find what they dislike long and boring. Some like grinds like FFXI or old EQ where you get a group and grind out mobs for hours (maybe a small % nowadays but still there). Some like the quest hubs, some like a sense of story being the driving force for your journey.
How else would you do anything, everything given to you with no effort and you live out a second virtual life? Again, you'll get division in those who would like this and those who won't, specifying what each individual would 'like' to see in said game.
First of all, there is no "proving you wrong". These are your opinions (the bit I quoted, and the rest of your post). They're "right" for you. They aren't "right" for everyone. So, to open up this "challenge" to everyone else to prove your opinions of something wrong is pointless from the get-go.
Whether we're talking about levels, crafting, questing, or any other activity you can do repeatedly over a long period of time, it can feel like a grind - if you treat it like one. The people who complain about "leveling being an annoying grind" are the ones who spend almost all their time doing nothing but leveling. The people who complain about other MMOs being nothing but quest-grinds are the ones who spend almost all their time doing nothing but questing. And in all cases, they're not particularly fond of the activity. So why are they doing it?
This is the important bit.
Because they're only playing for the payoff that comes at the end of all that. It's all about the reward to them, and the "journey" is just getting in their way.
They aren't playing for the story. They aren't playing for the adventure. They aren't playing for the social elements, or all the other activities they can participate in (which they often argue are "pointless things that just slow you down"). They're playing because, in their mind, "It's all about the end-game, man. That's where the best gear is".
You only feel that levels "lock away players from content" because the only thing you're interested in and focused on is finishing that content, and acquiring that loot - as soon as possible. So, having to level up becomes an obstacle to that for you, and so you view it as a bad thing.
For others it's just fine. For yet others, they prefer the process to be longer. They're not in a hurry. They don't "need" to get to level cap and end game "ASAP". And the "best loot" isn't their prime motivator.
Everything seems too slow when you're in a hurry to get it done.
For myself, I prefer games to be longer. I hate it when I feel like I'm being rushed through the game. I like to take my time, explore, do and see all the game offers (or as much of it as possible anyway) and not feel like I'm being pushed along by some invisible hands that want me hurrying up to some end-game that I'm not in any hurry to get to.
I've known plenty of people who actually enjoy leveling up. They consider it relaxing. A way to chill out, chat with in-game friends while doing something they consider enjoyable. Yes, it's true. Some people actually enjoy spending hours leveling. No, that doesn't make them some kind of weirdo. It makes them someone with a different set of preferences and views than you, and that's okay.
When you sorta step outside your own head, and stop coloring things in broad-strokes based entirely on the way you see them, you'll realize there's nothing to "prove you wrong" about. It's all just preferences.
Everyone talks about "endgame". What the hell is endgame? Because in every game I've played it's mindless dungeon running for gear. I sure wouldn't want a game that was only dungeon running for gear.
Character building and a virtual type world are the most important parts of an MMO in my opinion. As long as there are ways to have both I wouldn't necessarily need a number by my name. However you must have character buidling in one way or another. With no character building everyone would be the same and you would have an old console game on your hands...no thanks.
I like grinding and farming and time sinks. As long as combat and the loot is interesting and complex, I would love a big grinding and farming game. I really don't like buying a different game every month because there aren't the systems in place to keep me character building. I suspect that the console crowd has infected MMO's and they typically do not have the patience for any kind of grind.
The main argument I see for why "SLOW" leveling is needed, is because it makes people learn their class.
Well thats a common misconception. What if somebody played one spec while leveling, and switched to a new spec once at max level thats totally different. How would any of that level grinding, develop their skill in using those others specs?
We see this a lot in trinity based games. People level as DPS or something like it, but want to play Healer or Tank at endgame, which is a totally different play style.
Group content is the best way to develop Tanking and Healing skills. Not Leveling.
Seem like people also feel that people who dont like grinding, shouldnt play MMOs. Well when did it become set in stone that MMO gamers need to like grinding, and that all MMOs need to be grindy?
I to quit my favorite MMO (rift) during Storm Legion because of the huge level grind. I couldnt bare being locked away from content and features and builds after spending months as a max level already. The Level grind was long and boring killing mobs and mobs, or even Quest and Quest or whatever else in between.
Same thing in GW2. I was bored out my mind trying to level my alts after the big flood of hype wore off. Man that was crazy boring. Events and Hearts just were totally boring for leveling. After my Main got to 80, I refused to do hearts anymore because of how tired I am of Quest Grinding in MMOs. But outside of Hearts there was a hard time gaining consistent leveling exp which also felt slower than it already was with the heart grind.
Why do we need levels in MMO anymore?
All they do is lock away players from content.
Its a huge time sink. Prove me wrong!!!!
Take any Themepark MMO that has level grind. Now imagine how that game would be if it didnt have level. Everything would be endgame content. Imagine that for a moment. That seem like a better game than they currently are.
New MMO games launch with level grind, than when people get to max level, they find out that most of the development resources went into non max level content which become meaningless and outleveled. (SWTOR, Rift, WoW, etc)
But if that same game had no levels to begin with, all that content would be endgame instead of the tiny max level stuff.
Levels Segregate the community.
again Prove me wrong!!
First off, "prove you wrong"? Where the fuck do you get off thinking "your" opinion is right? How arrogant that you think your "opinion" deserves a rebuttal.
Second, no... you're RIGHT. EVERYONE should have EVERYTHING maxed, all areas open from the beginning, all gear available, no goals, everything instantly craftable with the materials in our bags; hell no quests.
I mean really, why do we want to work for anything? Generation DUH wants everything on a platter, so why shouldn't we have our games that way.
All content endgame, LOL! *New character* Let's go raid! Oh, but why, what's the point? We already have everything and there's nothing more to obtain. "But everyone deserves to be equal"! OK, let's go kill this crap a few 100 times so we can all get new gear then eventually all look the same again cuz we're only doing it for looks right?
And what game can't someone max level in a week anymore, if that? Who are all these people complaining? Games are getting dumber every day and you just want to completely make them kindergarten.
And what game can't someone max level in a week anymore, if that?
I know one. But I guarantee you don't want to play it. Neither does MMOEx.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I'd prefer having no levels and no leveling up aswell.
Something like found in pen&paper RPGs, where you create a character and play it as it is and the only things you improve at are items and knowledge. That's what I'd like to see in MMOs aswell.
Having to level up first is one of those things I hate most about MMOs actually. Instead of this, there should be a tutorial, where you learn how to play the game, but after that it's your decision, if you wanna play the storyline, or if you want to jump right into the dungeons or raids etc. The storyline should be made interesting enough, so that players really want to play it, instead of being forced to spend two weeks, grinding up to max-level. Especially when re-rolling a new character this leveling up is nothing but tedious.
You're either not in the right game, not willing to find some level of immersion in the world or not clear on what you want to get out of the game.
If one plays an elder scrolls game do you think "omg I've got to level, level LEVEL!"
Or do you just wander around, explore fight monsters or "thief it up" and through your actions you level accordingly?
Granted most mmo's don't have the freedom that an elder scrolls game has (sadly) but that doesn't mean you can't apply the same principles.
Very well said, Sovrath.
You get out what you put in. You approach it like a mindless grind, it's going to feel like a mindless grind.
As for the Skyrim example - great analogy. Of course, fully expect people here to say "Skyrim isn't a MMORPG!", drawing some arbitrary, made-up-on-the-spot distinction between leveling in a single player game and leveling in a multiplayer -game - as though the'yre somehow completely different - while completely missing the bigger point of your example. That seems to be the way it goes around here.
You've got the burden of evidence backwards in your title, MMOEx.
The burden of proof always lies on the person making the assertion (you, in this case).
Up to you to prove yourself right.
Nope. The concept of "burden of proof" is necessary for a well-designed judicial system due to the consequences of judging an innocent man. Outside of that, it is far from always necessary, specially not in a forum thread about games.
The main argument I see for why "SLOW" leveling is needed, is because it makes people learn their class.
Well thats a common misconception. What if somebody played one spec while leveling, and switched to a new spec once at max level thats totally different. How would any of that level grinding, develop their skill in using those others specs?
We see this a lot in trinity based games. People level as DPS or something like it, but want to play Healer or Tank at endgame, which is a totally different play style.
Group content is the best way to develop Tanking and Healing skills. Not Leveling.
Seem like people also feel that people who dont like grinding, shouldnt play MMOs. Well when did it become set in stone that MMO gamers need to like grinding, and that all MMOs need to be grindy?
I to quit my favorite MMO (rift) during Storm Legion because of the huge level grind. I couldnt bare being locked away from content and features and builds after spending months as a max level already. The Level grind was long and boring killing mobs and mobs, or even Quest and Quest or whatever else in between.
Same thing in GW2. I was bored out my mind trying to level my alts after the big flood of hype wore off. Man that was crazy boring. Events and Hearts just were totally boring for leveling. After my Main got to 80, I refused to do hearts anymore because of how tired I am of Quest Grinding in MMOs. But outside of Hearts there was a hard time gaining consistent leveling exp which also felt slower than it already was with the heart grind.
Why do we need levels in MMO anymore?
All they do is lock away players from content.
Its a huge time sink. Prove me wrong!!!!
Take any Themepark MMO that has level grind. Now imagine how that game would be if it didnt have level. Everything would be endgame content. Imagine that for a moment. That seem like a better game than they currently are.
New MMO games launch with level grind, than when people get to max level, they find out that most of the development resources went into non max level content which become meaningless and outleveled. (SWTOR, Rift, WoW, etc)
But if that same game had no levels to begin with, all that content would be endgame instead of the tiny max level stuff.
Levels Segregate the community.
again Prove me wrong!!
You are completely right with that one. Leveling/grinding is completely useless and a waste of time.
And i will bring up two examples, which at some point discarded leveling.
Fist of all the grand father of MMORPGs, Ultima Online. You could do almost everything from the get go, and it didnt change that much after playing a year or two. One point even was that you were more or less always able to play as veteran with a complete noob without loosing much. In UO there was some vertical progression, but the difference between max and noob was not that high. Although it was not completely grindless or completely without level. For a few thing it was rather useful to be grandmaster(skill level of 100) and to get there was a huge(and in my eyes) useless grind.
Another example would be DAoC at level 50 and the Realm War. And if you ask the majority of DAoC players the game started basicly at lvl 50.. the grind before was just a waste of time. Although there was some vertical progression with the RR system, but similar to UO the difference between max and noob(lvl50 in the case of DAoC) was not really that high, and they could play together(or against) without to much problems.
So.. it is not really a surprise that Chamelot Unchained scrapped the level grind from lvl 1-50 and will start more or less at DAoC lvl 50.
Therefore i am a advocate of as less vertical progression as possible, and with it of course against leveling/grinding. You may need a little bit of vertical progression, but it should be extremely small, and should not generate a gap between noob and veteran. But you need most probably a little bit of it to get the feeling of advancement, but the greatest part should be horizontal progression only.
And about learning and getting used to things, small tutorials to show you the basics of what you learn should be more than enough, this could be combined with scholar <-> master relationship, and could be embedded in a RPG manner. Like you search for the great swordmen master somewhere, and if you find him you will learn from it, and this will be more like a tutorial, where you actually learn how to use that skills in the game.
Leveling is the essence of a RPG. To many people prefer MMOGs without the RP part.
Raiding is no more or less a time sink than leveling. raiding segregates the community no more or less than leveling.
Yeap.. That is the main difference between me and a lot of (younger) RPG/MMORPG players. For me RPG meant playing a Role, now a days it means different stats, classes and level progression.
Nowadays we dont have any roles to play, just a bunch of classes, which actually do all the same(figthing mobs).
I agree it is a time sink. And that's why I love the genre...used to love the genre. I could really get lost in my character and world when it took me 6 months to reach level max. The beauty of the "grind" used to be that it kind of made us forget there was an end, because it took so long. If I wanna play a game to "beat" it, I have my offline RPGs. Moderns MMOs have what resembles an "end" now and I hate it. Not only does it take significantly shorter to reach max level, but it takes significantly shorter to reach max gear, truly leaving nothing left for my characters. One thing I loved about EverQuest, is that (usually) when a new expansion came out, I still had not yet maxed my character from the previous expansion. Sure maybe by level cap I had, but not content and gear.
If I want a world in which people can purchase success and power with cash, I'll play Real Life. Keep Virtual Worlds Virtual!
Back in the olden days when MMO games were fun , like EQ for example , You couldn't solo very easily.
So what people did was this amazing thing called grouping . I know it sounds stupid and old school to actually group to level up but that's what we did back in the old days .
Now I know social interaction these days like typing hello even isn't done much and grouping is just press a button for a automatic que . Back in the old days we actually had to type words that made sentences inorder to get a group .
We used to camp an area waiting for respawn , in between spawns we actually chat to party members and sometimes became friends , that led to things later on sometimes , and sometimes friends became guild mates .
Anyways this is ancient gaming , a lost art .
It wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Turning every aspect of the game in to a three legged race is not social and while it makes for a great 100 meter dash, doing a 20 mile marathon that way was not. Also, Development began to abuse the group mechanics as a time sink once players realized blitzing stuff made it faster.
For myself, I prefer games to be longer. I hate it when I feel like I'm being rushed through the game. I like to take my time, explore, do and see all the game offers (or as much of it as possible anyway) and not feel like I'm being pushed along by some invisible hands that want me hurrying up to some end-game that I'm not in any hurry to get to.
I agree with that. BUT, do you need levels for that one? That is even the problem of levels and vertical progression. Because you have to level up, because you have to vertical progress you/or a lot of people forget to actually have fun or enjoy the game.
Without a lot of vertical progression(level, leveling) you will give the player the freedom to do what ever they want and how many or how less time they desire.. and may have actually time again for role playing, for socializing, for having fun.
And I never realized 'waiting for a respawn' was a fun game mechanic.
Waiting for a spawn isn't about "waiting".
It's about opportunity.
Opportunity to socialize, opportunity to get ready before someone else comes and claims the spawn.
In games with pvp it's an opportunity to attack those trying to take the spawn and an opportunity to defend it.
The disparity in these discussion comes from different people who view these games in different ways.
To the OP, he is interested in "doing something that has meaning NOW". Not building up to that something. For the person who wants a more open experience and who enjoys creating and developing a character these games are about being in a world and experiencing the fluidity of the world's events.
They are about "what happens to players between events". what happens to players during the leveling.
There can't be a meeting of the minds when one group views waiting for a spawn as "boring waiting" and another group views it as the time period when anything can happen before (and even during and after) that spawn.
when I was at my conservatory there was a saying "there's plenty of music in the silence".
Not to sound too touchy feely but some people are interested in that "music during the silence".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
See the fault is in the players. All I see is a group of bitchly whiny people that they NEED their leveling to keep playing the game. How about you stop for a moment and play the game for WHAT IT IS?!? How is it fun for you to farm the same area with the same people all the #$&@*&;^@ time. And how dare you to say that leveling is the only way to go in a "modern" MMO? How dare you ... Sure EvE online is not a themepark but this does not mean that their system can not be adjusted to a themepark. It's just nobody does that because the PLAYERS (not the developers) will run away from this game.
As a result, most of us, who play MMOs (I'm a PC gamer not a console gamer) are forced to face the mechanics of old generation of MMOs. In a time where you all and me included were 10-15 years old with shitload of free time... This has to change. Cash shops with exp boosters and the pathetic excuse "you dont play enough because you work...you work therefore u have money...therefore you can buy an exp pack" - bullshit .... what's even worse is that they put this bullshit mechanic in a game where you
See the fault is in the players. All I see is a group of bitchly whiny people that they NEED their leveling to keep playing the game. How about you stop for a moment and play the game for WHAT IT IS?!?
A little angry there aren't you skipper?
and do you not see the irony in the highlighted portion?
Besides, there are people who like/enjoy leveling. So why wouldn't they desire content that had leveling?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour Originally posted by IcewhiteYou've got the burden of evidence backwards in your title, MMOEx.The burden of proof always lies on the person making the assertion (you, in this case).Up to you to prove yourself right.
Nope. The concept of "burden of proof" is necessary for a well-designed judicial system due to the consequences of judging an innocent man. Outside of that, it is far from always necessary, specially not in a forum thread about games.
This isn't a court of law. At best it's a debate. In competitive debate, a statement is made which is what the OP has done. From there the For side must prove that the statement is correct with arguments, and the Against side must refute the arguments. The Against side is not required to propose an alternative.
So, the OP must present arguments in favor of their statement, proving it to be correct. The opposition must refute the arguments, or present arguments that directly counter the original statement. At the end, judges must vote and declare a winner, or declare everyone bad at debate.
So, where are our judges? No judges? Is there a rule to cover this? What?!? There are no rules? How is this even a debate? It's not really a debate? Free For All? How does that even work? Oh. Right. People get distracted and eventually post in other threads.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Leveling is the essence of a RPG. To many people prefer MMOGs without the RP part.
Raiding is no more or less a time sink than leveling. raiding segregates the community no more or less than leveling.
Yeap.. That is the main difference between me and a lot of (younger) RPG/MMORPG players. For me RPG meant playing a Role, now a days it means different stats, classes and level progression.
Nowadays we dont have any roles to play, just a bunch of classes, which actually do all the same(figthing mobs).
CRPG has not been about playing a role for ages. Even if you go back all the way to the SSI gold box games, it is about tactical combat & progression.
Slow leveling isn't meant to learn one's class... it's meant to get you involved in your character... to experience it and not just merely use it as an end to a means.
The reason why MMOs fail to deliver is because they've lost touch with what their essence is... a community based role playing game. All people care about is the loot piñata... end game... that's it. The part of the game that really requires the LEAST amount of effort to create. Why create worlds at all if all you want to do is stay in a box killing the same thing over and over again for loot that will be replaced a week later? Just log on, enter instance, kill something, log off. Now that's what I call fun... NOT. It's what you've turned every MMO into as of late. The developers are giving you exactly what you've asked for... a shallow simple game with nothing more than a carrot before you. You chose to ignore the world... ignore leveling... ignore just about everything but one... loot. Might as well be at a casino plopping quarters in a slot... that's all you are really doing.
You are asking us to prove that you are wrong in your belief regarding a subjective experience?
Not only that, but a subjective experience that can be very different depending on how you play and what you play in a single game and of course very different across multiple games
Is that right? Because if it is you need to go back to school, or at the very least take some classes on logic, reasoning and maybe a stats class or two regarding reasonable proofs.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
Leveling is the essence of a RPG. To many people prefer MMOGs without the RP part.
Raiding is no more or less a time sink than leveling. raiding segregates the community no more or less than leveling.
It's only mindless if you think/play that way.
Fault is the players'
You're either not in the right game, not willing to find some level of immersion in the world or not clear on what you want to get out of the game.
If one plays an elder scrolls game do you think "omg I've got to level, level LEVEL!"
Or do you just wander around, explore fight monsters or "thief it up" and through your actions you level accordingly?
Granted most mmo's don't have the freedom that an elder scrolls game has (sadly) but that doesn't mean you can't apply the same principles.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
There is no solution to your querry because there is no single answer.
It's a matter of perspective. What is grind to you? To me? To John Doe over there?
Levels, gear, weapon stats, etc. are all timesinks/grinds, they are not reserved only to themeparks. However, if you are enjoying your time doing whatever it is you are doing in <insert game title here> then it is not a grind nor a time sink.
Einstein proved it with the theory of relativity and like it not, it also applies here. 'Time flies when you're having fun' ring a bell?
It's all subjective to what you find enjoyable and what you do not and most find what they dislike long and boring. Some like grinds like FFXI or old EQ where you get a group and grind out mobs for hours (maybe a small % nowadays but still there). Some like the quest hubs, some like a sense of story being the driving force for your journey.
How else would you do anything, everything given to you with no effort and you live out a second virtual life? Again, you'll get division in those who would like this and those who won't, specifying what each individual would 'like' to see in said game.
First of all, there is no "proving you wrong". These are your opinions (the bit I quoted, and the rest of your post). They're "right" for you. They aren't "right" for everyone. So, to open up this "challenge" to everyone else to prove your opinions of something wrong is pointless from the get-go.
Whether we're talking about levels, crafting, questing, or any other activity you can do repeatedly over a long period of time, it can feel like a grind - if you treat it like one. The people who complain about "leveling being an annoying grind" are the ones who spend almost all their time doing nothing but leveling. The people who complain about other MMOs being nothing but quest-grinds are the ones who spend almost all their time doing nothing but questing. And in all cases, they're not particularly fond of the activity. So why are they doing it?
This is the important bit.
Because they're only playing for the payoff that comes at the end of all that. It's all about the reward to them, and the "journey" is just getting in their way.
They aren't playing for the story. They aren't playing for the adventure. They aren't playing for the social elements, or all the other activities they can participate in (which they often argue are "pointless things that just slow you down"). They're playing because, in their mind, "It's all about the end-game, man. That's where the best gear is".
You only feel that levels "lock away players from content" because the only thing you're interested in and focused on is finishing that content, and acquiring that loot - as soon as possible. So, having to level up becomes an obstacle to that for you, and so you view it as a bad thing.
For others it's just fine. For yet others, they prefer the process to be longer. They're not in a hurry. They don't "need" to get to level cap and end game "ASAP". And the "best loot" isn't their prime motivator.
Everything seems too slow when you're in a hurry to get it done.
For myself, I prefer games to be longer. I hate it when I feel like I'm being rushed through the game. I like to take my time, explore, do and see all the game offers (or as much of it as possible anyway) and not feel like I'm being pushed along by some invisible hands that want me hurrying up to some end-game that I'm not in any hurry to get to.
I've known plenty of people who actually enjoy leveling up. They consider it relaxing. A way to chill out, chat with in-game friends while doing something they consider enjoyable. Yes, it's true. Some people actually enjoy spending hours leveling. No, that doesn't make them some kind of weirdo. It makes them someone with a different set of preferences and views than you, and that's okay.
When you sorta step outside your own head, and stop coloring things in broad-strokes based entirely on the way you see them, you'll realize there's nothing to "prove you wrong" about. It's all just preferences.
Everyone talks about "endgame". What the hell is endgame? Because in every game I've played it's mindless dungeon running for gear. I sure wouldn't want a game that was only dungeon running for gear.
Character building and a virtual type world are the most important parts of an MMO in my opinion. As long as there are ways to have both I wouldn't necessarily need a number by my name. However you must have character buidling in one way or another. With no character building everyone would be the same and you would have an old console game on your hands...no thanks.
I like grinding and farming and time sinks. As long as combat and the loot is interesting and complex, I would love a big grinding and farming game. I really don't like buying a different game every month because there aren't the systems in place to keep me character building. I suspect that the console crowd has infected MMO's and they typically do not have the patience for any kind of grind.
First off, "prove you wrong"? Where the fuck do you get off thinking "your" opinion is right? How arrogant that you think your "opinion" deserves a rebuttal.
Second, no... you're RIGHT. EVERYONE should have EVERYTHING maxed, all areas open from the beginning, all gear available, no goals, everything instantly craftable with the materials in our bags; hell no quests.
I mean really, why do we want to work for anything? Generation DUH wants everything on a platter, so why shouldn't we have our games that way.
All content endgame, LOL! *New character* Let's go raid! Oh, but why, what's the point? We already have everything and there's nothing more to obtain. "But everyone deserves to be equal"! OK, let's go kill this crap a few 100 times so we can all get new gear then eventually all look the same again cuz we're only doing it for looks right?
And what game can't someone max level in a week anymore, if that? Who are all these people complaining? Games are getting dumber every day and you just want to completely make them kindergarten.
LOL, you made my day.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I'd prefer having no levels and no leveling up aswell.
Something like found in pen&paper RPGs, where you create a character and play it as it is and the only things you improve at are items and knowledge. That's what I'd like to see in MMOs aswell.
Having to level up first is one of those things I hate most about MMOs actually. Instead of this, there should be a tutorial, where you learn how to play the game, but after that it's your decision, if you wanna play the storyline, or if you want to jump right into the dungeons or raids etc.
The storyline should be made interesting enough, so that players really want to play it, instead of being forced to spend two weeks, grinding up to max-level. Especially when re-rolling a new character this leveling up is nothing but tedious.
Very well said, Sovrath.
You get out what you put in. You approach it like a mindless grind, it's going to feel like a mindless grind.
As for the Skyrim example - great analogy. Of course, fully expect people here to say "Skyrim isn't a MMORPG!", drawing some arbitrary, made-up-on-the-spot distinction between leveling in a single player game and leveling in a multiplayer -game - as though the'yre somehow completely different - while completely missing the bigger point of your example. That seems to be the way it goes around here.
Slow leveling + plenty of content from begginner level to end game = not grindy
Slow leveling + only end game = Major grindy
Fast leveling + endgame focased = not grindy
Fast leveling + early game contend + mid game content + end game = Priceless
So how we fix the mindless of leveling or there are any new concept to make leveling more interest ?
What point we have to prove you wrong ? Op
What you said are right ,
but you don't show us any way to solve it or how to change it to better form.
if it just to prove you right or wrong then ... i agree that you right about leveling is a mindless time sink.
Nope. The concept of "burden of proof" is necessary for a well-designed judicial system due to the consequences of judging an innocent man. Outside of that, it is far from always necessary, specially not in a forum thread about games.
You are completely right with that one. Leveling/grinding is completely useless and a waste of time.
And i will bring up two examples, which at some point discarded leveling.
Fist of all the grand father of MMORPGs, Ultima Online. You could do almost everything from the get go, and it didnt change that much after playing a year or two. One point even was that you were more or less always able to play as veteran with a complete noob without loosing much. In UO there was some vertical progression, but the difference between max and noob was not that high. Although it was not completely grindless or completely without level. For a few thing it was rather useful to be grandmaster(skill level of 100) and to get there was a huge(and in my eyes) useless grind.
Another example would be DAoC at level 50 and the Realm War. And if you ask the majority of DAoC players the game started basicly at lvl 50.. the grind before was just a waste of time. Although there was some vertical progression with the RR system, but similar to UO the difference between max and noob(lvl50 in the case of DAoC) was not really that high, and they could play together(or against) without to much problems.
So.. it is not really a surprise that Chamelot Unchained scrapped the level grind from lvl 1-50 and will start more or less at DAoC lvl 50.
Therefore i am a advocate of as less vertical progression as possible, and with it of course against leveling/grinding. You may need a little bit of vertical progression, but it should be extremely small, and should not generate a gap between noob and veteran. But you need most probably a little bit of it to get the feeling of advancement, but the greatest part should be horizontal progression only.
And about learning and getting used to things, small tutorials to show you the basics of what you learn should be more than enough, this could be combined with scholar <-> master relationship, and could be embedded in a RPG manner. Like you search for the great swordmen master somewhere, and if you find him you will learn from it, and this will be more like a tutorial, where you actually learn how to use that skills in the game.
THIS!!!
Yeap.. That is the main difference between me and a lot of (younger) RPG/MMORPG players. For me RPG meant playing a Role, now a days it means different stats, classes and level progression.
Nowadays we dont have any roles to play, just a bunch of classes, which actually do all the same(figthing mobs).
If I want a world in which people can purchase success and power with cash, I'll play Real Life. Keep Virtual Worlds Virtual!
I agree with that. BUT, do you need levels for that one? That is even the problem of levels and vertical progression. Because you have to level up, because you have to vertical progress you/or a lot of people forget to actually have fun or enjoy the game.
Without a lot of vertical progression(level, leveling) you will give the player the freedom to do what ever they want and how many or how less time they desire.. and may have actually time again for role playing, for socializing, for having fun.
Waiting for a spawn isn't about "waiting".
It's about opportunity.
Opportunity to socialize, opportunity to get ready before someone else comes and claims the spawn.
In games with pvp it's an opportunity to attack those trying to take the spawn and an opportunity to defend it.
The disparity in these discussion comes from different people who view these games in different ways.
To the OP, he is interested in "doing something that has meaning NOW". Not building up to that something. For the person who wants a more open experience and who enjoys creating and developing a character these games are about being in a world and experiencing the fluidity of the world's events.
They are about "what happens to players between events". what happens to players during the leveling.
There can't be a meeting of the minds when one group views waiting for a spawn as "boring waiting" and another group views it as the time period when anything can happen before (and even during and after) that spawn.
when I was at my conservatory there was a saying "there's plenty of music in the silence".
Not to sound too touchy feely but some people are interested in that "music during the silence".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
See the fault is in the players. All I see is a group of bitchly whiny people that they NEED their leveling to keep playing the game. How about you stop for a moment and play the game for WHAT IT IS?!? How is it fun for you to farm the same area with the same people all the #$&@*&;^@ time. And how dare you to say that leveling is the only way to go in a "modern" MMO? How dare you ... Sure EvE online is not a themepark but this does not mean that their system can not be adjusted to a themepark. It's just nobody does that because the PLAYERS (not the developers) will run away from this game.
As a result, most of us, who play MMOs (I'm a PC gamer not a console gamer) are forced to face the mechanics of old generation of MMOs. In a time where you all and me included were 10-15 years old with shitload of free time... This has to change. Cash shops with exp boosters and the pathetic excuse "you dont play enough because you work...you work therefore u have money...therefore you can buy an exp pack" - bullshit .... what's even worse is that they put this bullshit mechanic in a game where you
1) Pay the full box price
and in some even ...
2) You pay a monthly fee
A little angry there aren't you skipper?
and do you not see the irony in the highlighted portion?
Besides, there are people who like/enjoy leveling. So why wouldn't they desire content that had leveling?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Nope. The concept of "burden of proof" is necessary for a well-designed judicial system due to the consequences of judging an innocent man. Outside of that, it is far from always necessary, specially not in a forum thread about games.
This isn't a court of law. At best it's a debate. In competitive debate, a statement is made which is what the OP has done. From there the For side must prove that the statement is correct with arguments, and the Against side must refute the arguments. The Against side is not required to propose an alternative.
So, the OP must present arguments in favor of their statement, proving it to be correct. The opposition must refute the arguments, or present arguments that directly counter the original statement. At the end, judges must vote and declare a winner, or declare everyone bad at debate.
So, where are our judges? No judges? Is there a rule to cover this? What?!? There are no rules? How is this even a debate? It's not really a debate? Free For All? How does that even work? Oh. Right. People get distracted and eventually post in other threads.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
CRPG has not been about playing a role for ages. Even if you go back all the way to the SSI gold box games, it is about tactical combat & progression.
Slow leveling isn't meant to learn one's class... it's meant to get you involved in your character... to experience it and not just merely use it as an end to a means.
The reason why MMOs fail to deliver is because they've lost touch with what their essence is... a community based role playing game. All people care about is the loot piñata... end game... that's it. The part of the game that really requires the LEAST amount of effort to create. Why create worlds at all if all you want to do is stay in a box killing the same thing over and over again for loot that will be replaced a week later? Just log on, enter instance, kill something, log off. Now that's what I call fun... NOT. It's what you've turned every MMO into as of late. The developers are giving you exactly what you've asked for... a shallow simple game with nothing more than a carrot before you. You chose to ignore the world... ignore leveling... ignore just about everything but one... loot. Might as well be at a casino plopping quarters in a slot... that's all you are really doing.
Let me get this straight.
You are asking us to prove that you are wrong in your belief regarding a subjective experience?
Not only that, but a subjective experience that can be very different depending on how you play and what you play in a single game and of course very different across multiple games
Is that right? Because if it is you need to go back to school, or at the very least take some classes on logic, reasoning and maybe a stats class or two regarding reasonable proofs.