Pretty much, levels are extrinsic motivators ("carrots") to distract you from the fact that you're not having fun. Get the next carrot, and at least for a little while, it will feel good! The purpose of levels is to keep stringing you along in this fashion.
The reasons that developers use it are 1) it works on a lot of people, 2) it's easy, and 3) they really don't know how to make a fun game that will actually entertain people for hundreds/thousands of hours otherwise.
If you can hook them up on number 3, I'm sure plenty of developers are happy to change their tune. But most game designers AND players--even all those who are really serious about MMO design--don't understand how to make games fun. Most still take a feature-based approach to design, where if they combine the right ingredients, it should be good. They don't actually understand the subtleties of it--the math behind the scenes that determines how the dish turns out.
Imagine if someone mixes all the ingredients of a hamburger together, but mashes it into one big ball of hamburger paste. Will it be good? Maybe. But in the likely event that it isn't, wouldn't it be kind of ridiculous for them to say, "What? It's a hamburger! You love hamburgers!" That's where most MMO designers (and players) are at.
And honestly, if you want to solve that, a lot of people need to get over their aversion to Kickstarter/crowdfunding, because that's really the only avenue for developers to prove that there are other ways.
The ride has to be enjoyable for that to happen. Killing monster for weeks without any discernable improvement, or new abilities is not that fun.
Fast leveling is more fun is not because you get to end game faster. It is because you get a new ability (or power up) to try out more frequently, and you get to fight new tougher monster in new areas faster.
In my opinion, I believe that the Mindless Time Sink referred to is, THE GAME.
I think everyone is in such a hurry to get to the end, wanting some fantastic End Game, that they don't take the time to actually PLAY THE GAME.
How many of you see a group of people make cap the first few days of the games release and then post how the game sucks? How do they know? They only skimmed over it. To me, that grind is most of the fun. Taking my time to enjoy the Game, the Story, The actual Play.
When you played your very first MMO you were wide eyed, A First. You took it all in. Everything that went into making the Game. Now everyone is past that and are in a huge hurry.
I'm not in a Hurry, I enjoy the ride.
Once again, this is MY opinion.
Even in my first MMORPG the grind got too much after a while. By the mid point of the leveling process, the new abilities were no longer that innovative and did not really require much effort to learn. As the grinds between levels got longer, I realized that it was becoming a slow lobotomy. At the time I was quite depressed to I did not mind how dumbed down the game has become but these days I shudder at the mindlessness of it all. It was like watching a Twilight marathon and actually liking it.
The ride has to be enjoyable for that to happen. Killing monster for weeks without any discernable improvement, or new abilities is not that fun.
Fast leveling is more fun is not because you get to end game faster. It is because you get a new ability (or power up) to try out more frequently, and you get to fight new tougher monster in new areas faster.
Khm, yes, ... but difference is then that you will get all abilities faster. And then? Sooner or later there is some end to abilities, you can not accumulate houndreds of them .... Game must be fun. So far best ever for me is swtor, leveling is not fast, leveled my 8 alts to 50 in aprox 7 months, but I have enjoyed ride, did nearly all quests, ... shoting is fun, using lightsaber, ... Same for wow. And few others.
Originally posted by IcewhiteYou've got the burden of evidence backwards in your title, MMOEx.The burden of proof always lies on the person making the assertion (you, in this case).Up to you to prove yourself right.
Nope. The concept of "burden of proof" is necessary for a well-designed judicial system due to the consequences of judging an innocent man. Outside of that, it is far from always necessary, specially not in a forum thread about games.
This isn't a court of law. At best it's a debate. In competitive debate, a statement is made which is what the OP has done. From there the For side must prove that the statement is correct with arguments, and the Against side must refute the arguments. The Against side is not required to propose an alternative.
So, the OP must present arguments in favor of their statement, proving it to be correct. The opposition must refute the arguments, or present arguments that directly counter the original statement. At the end, judges must vote and declare a winner, or declare everyone bad at debate.
So, where are our judges? No judges? Is there a rule to cover this? What?!? There are no rules? How is this even a debate? It's not really a debate? Free For All? How does that even work? Oh. Right. People get distracted and eventually post in other threads.
That's because it isn't a debate competition. A discussion does not necessarely require that the "for"-side presents any arguments supporting their claim. It is completely possible to create a discussion where a statement has been made and people can attempt to prove that the statement false while other people can attempt to prove that the "proof" is insufficient or wrong.
The main argument I see for why "SLOW" leveling is needed, is because it makes people learn their class.
Well thats a common misconception. What if somebody played one spec while leveling, and switched to a new spec once at max level thats totally different. How would any of that level grinding, develop their skill in using those others specs?
We see this a lot in trinity based games. People level as DPS or something like it, but want to play Healer or Tank at endgame, which is a totally different play style.
Group content is the best way to develop Tanking and Healing skills. Not Leveling.
Seem like people also feel that people who dont like grinding, shouldnt play MMOs. Well when did it become set in stone that MMO gamers need to like grinding, and that all MMOs need to be grindy?
I to quit my favorite MMO (rift) during Storm Legion because of the huge level grind. I couldnt bare being locked away from content and features and builds after spending months as a max level already. The Level grind was long and boring killing mobs and mobs, or even Quest and Quest or whatever else in between.
Same thing in GW2. I was bored out my mind trying to level my alts after the big flood of hype wore off. Man that was crazy boring. Events and Hearts just were totally boring for leveling. After my Main got to 80, I refused to do hearts anymore because of how tired I am of Quest Grinding in MMOs. But outside of Hearts there was a hard time gaining consistent leveling exp which also felt slower than it already was with the heart grind.
Why do we need levels in MMO anymore?
All they do is lock away players from content.
Its a huge time sink. Prove me wrong!!!!
Take any Themepark MMO that has level grind. Now imagine how that game would be if it didnt have level. Everything would be endgame content. Imagine that for a moment. That seem like a better game than they currently are.
New MMO games launch with level grind, than when people get to max level, they find out that most of the development resources went into non max level content which become meaningless and outleveled. (SWTOR, Rift, WoW, etc)
But if that same game had no levels to begin with, all that content would be endgame instead of the tiny max level stuff.
Levels Segregate the community.
again Prove me wrong!!
The reason level based MMO's are prefered over Skill Based MMO's is becasue Skill Based MMO's are a bigger time sink than a level based. Prime example of this is EVE Online. In order to get any where in EVE Online you have to spend 2 - 3 years just on leveling skills alone. Where as a game like Rift or Everquest 2 you spend only 4 - 5 months to get to max level. The only exception to this is the Korean or Japanese MMO's like Final Fantasy and Lineage 2.
This is incorrect. I have two characters in the cooker with 3 month skill plan for a specific role (cloak scouts + more). This is considered participating in "end game" There are plenty of things along the way that I could do with these alts, but I decided I do not have the time to do what I wanted to do.
I can have a character doing something in a few days, or a few hours depending the task I want to do. It takes longer for most to figure out WHAT they want to do.
Statement still stands, those games forcing you to level, do not allow you to participate in most groups until you reach the level. Then gear grinds, etc, take over.
Levels come from pen and paper dungeons and dragons. In that game they were an award, you kill a certain number of monsters, get experience points and you level up.
I've also heard that levels allow you to learn how to play by gradually introducing skills.
A sandbox, the four boards and sand kind that you find in playgrounds, doesn't require levels. Everyone has all the skills and abilities as soon as they start. Minecraft is an example.
I think there is room for progression games and sandbox games.
It's all about the journey not reaching the destination. Once I'm there I always get bored with running the same instances or countless PvP sessions so I reroll.
That's because it isn't a debate competition. A discussion does not necessarely require that the "for"-side presents any arguments supporting their claim. It is completely possible to create a discussion where a statement has been made and people can attempt to prove that the statement false while other people can attempt to prove that the "proof" is insufficient or wrong.
Possible, sure. If you can sucker other people into doing your work for you.
I prefer to leave the burden where it belongs. I'll believe the assertion made by his title, when he provides sufficient and compelling evidence.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Only speaking to the OP, because I don't have time to read this entire thread.
If you're speaking strictly about MMOGs (Massively Multiplayer Online Games) that's cool, get rid of the levels. They're not necessary in a game like Battlefield <whatever>.
If you're speaking to MMORPGS, then you're missing the point completely, and should just stick with MMOs instead. There are plenty of games that don't have a 'grind' in that genre, so there's no need for you to bend another genre to your desire to get what you want.
The RPG part of MMORPG stands for Role-Playing Game, and part of playing a role is watching the character you're playing progress. The original intent was to step into a characters life and watch them mature, like reading a good book.
That doesn't work for MMO games because the focus there is on the action not the character.
Similarly, dropping the character out of an MMORPG doesn't work because the focus should be on the character instead of the action. You may not like that, but then again you might not be playing the right game.
In other words, if you don't like Horror Movies you probably wont like Ju-on. That doesn't mean it should be remade into a movie about rainbow kisses and unicorn princesses.
Originally posted by IcewhiteYou've got the burden of evidence backwards in your title, MMOEx.The burden of proof always lies on the person making the assertion (you, in this case).Up to you to prove yourself right.
Nope. The concept of "burden of proof" is necessary for a well-designed judicial system due to the consequences of judging an innocent man. Outside of that, it is far from always necessary, specially not in a forum thread about games.
This isn't a court of law. At best it's a debate. In competitive debate, a statement is made which is what the OP has done. From there the For side must prove that the statement is correct with arguments, and the Against side must refute the arguments. The Against side is not required to propose an alternative.
So, the OP must present arguments in favor of their statement, proving it to be correct. The opposition must refute the arguments, or present arguments that directly counter the original statement. At the end, judges must vote and declare a winner, or declare everyone bad at debate.
So, where are our judges? No judges? Is there a rule to cover this? What?!? There are no rules? How is this even a debate? It's not really a debate? Free For All? How does that even work? Oh. Right. People get distracted and eventually post in other threads.
That's because it isn't a debate competition. A discussion does not necessarely require that the "for"-side presents any arguments supporting their claim. It is completely possible to create a discussion where a statement has been made and people can attempt to prove that the statement false while other people can attempt to prove that the "proof" is insufficient or wrong.
I've noticed a lot of people here seem to think that, despite how discussion in the real world works.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The leveling can be fun if the quests or low level dungeons are actually entertaining. And I bet every game has at least a few of these.
I also think most modern games make the leveling of the first character fun. Depending on the size of the game and the difference between classes, even the next few can be fun if things change sufficiently. Once you trot character number 6 through the motions, yea, everything will eventually get boring.
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by TwoThreeFourOriginally posted by IcewhiteYou've got the burden of evidence backwards in your title, MMOEx.The burden of proof always lies on the person making the assertion (you, in this case).Up to you to prove yourself right.
Nope. The concept of "burden of proof" is necessary for a well-designed judicial system due to the consequences of judging an innocent man. Outside of that, it is far from always necessary, specially not in a forum thread about games. This isn't a court of law. At best it's a debate. In competitive debate, a statement is made which is what the OP has done. From there the For side must prove that the statement is correct with arguments, and the Against side must refute the arguments. The Against side is not required to propose an alternative. So, the OP must present arguments in favor of their statement, proving it to be correct. The opposition must refute the arguments, or present arguments that directly counter the original statement. At the end, judges must vote and declare a winner, or declare everyone bad at debate. So, where are our judges? No judges? Is there a rule to cover this? What?!? There are no rules? How is this even a debate? It's not really a debate? Free For All? How does that even work? Oh. Right. People get distracted and eventually post in other threads. That's because it isn't a debate competition. A discussion does not necessarely require that the "for"-side presents any arguments supporting their claim. It is completely possible to create a discussion where a statement has been made and people can attempt to prove that the statement false while other people can attempt to prove that the "proof" is insufficient or wrong.
I know. At first I was suggesting a set of rules that best fit our venue. Then I was just mocking the idea of arguing about the rules in a scenario where there are no rules.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The ride has to be enjoyable for that to happen. Killing monster for weeks without any discernable improvement, or new abilities is not that fun.
Fast leveling is more fun is not because you get to end game faster. It is because you get a new ability (or power up) to try out more frequently, and you get to fight new tougher monster in new areas faster.
Khm, yes, ... but difference is then that you will get all abilities faster. And then? Sooner or later there is some end to abilities, you can not accumulate houndreds of them .... Game must be fun. So far best ever for me is swtor, leveling is not fast, leveled my 8 alts to 50 in aprox 7 months, but I have enjoyed ride, did nearly all quests, ... shoting is fun, using lightsaber, ... Same for wow. And few others.
To me the best part of most MMo's is the leveling up! I lose interest in the end games as they are mostly repeat the same, raid, dungeon, or daily for better gear thats only important if used in the elite version of the same content. Boring!!!! The games that held my interest the longest were EQ (never did finish leveling in it), SWG (didn't feel like I was repeating the same ole worn out missions), and DAoC (RvR really added an element with realm pride). Hopefully some designers can come up with random mission/dungeon/raid/RvR material that is both relevant and keeps my interest in continuing to play.
As far as no leveling games go, simple shooter types are fun for a few hours, but not something I'm going to sink a lot of time in as I do a regular MMO.
Originally posted by lizardbones I know. At first I was suggesting a set of rules that best fit our venue. Then I was just mocking the idea of arguing about the rules in a scenario where there are no rules.
Sure, "because I said so, prove me wrong" is just such a compelling argument. we shouldn't ever call folks out for making it.
Welcome back to kindergarten.
Where did this "rule" come from (hint: it wasn't court)
Otherwise, any and every idiot claim and false statement would have to be disproven in order to even live a somewhat normal existence. Allow me to demonstrate ‘there is a purple dragon behind the moon that created the earth…now prove me wrong’.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
That's because it isn't a debate competition. A discussion does not necessarely require that the "for"-side presents any arguments supporting their claim. It is completely possible to create a discussion where a statement has been made and people can attempt to prove that the statement false while other people can attempt to prove that the "proof" is insufficient or wrong.
Possible, sure. If you can sucker other people into doing your work for you.
I prefer to leave the burden where it belongs. I'll believe the assertion made by his title, when he provides sufficient and compelling evidence.
There is no natural law stating where the burden belongs. I've already previously stated why there is a rational reason to put the burden in a certain place when it comes to judicial proceedings, but that's not applicable here.
The main argument I see for why "SLOW" leveling is needed, is because it makes people learn their class.
Well thats a common misconception. What if somebody played one spec while leveling, and switched to a new spec once at max level thats totally different. How would any of that level grinding, develop their skill in using those others specs?
We see this a lot in trinity based games. People level as DPS or something like it, but want to play Healer or Tank at endgame, which is a totally different play style.
Group content is the best way to develop Tanking and Healing skills. Not Leveling.
Seem like people also feel that people who dont like grinding, shouldnt play MMOs. Well when did it become set in stone that MMO gamers need to like grinding, and that all MMOs need to be grindy?
I to quit my favorite MMO (rift) during Storm Legion because of the huge level grind. I couldnt bare being locked away from content and features and builds after spending months as a max level already. The Level grind was long and boring killing mobs and mobs, or even Quest and Quest or whatever else in between.
Same thing in GW2. I was bored out my mind trying to level my alts after the big flood of hype wore off. Man that was crazy boring. Events and Hearts just were totally boring for leveling. After my Main got to 80, I refused to do hearts anymore because of how tired I am of Quest Grinding in MMOs. But outside of Hearts there was a hard time gaining consistent leveling exp which also felt slower than it already was with the heart grind.
Why do we need levels in MMO anymore?
All they do is lock away players from content.
Its a huge time sink. Prove me wrong!!!!
Take any Themepark MMO that has level grind. Now imagine how that game would be if it didnt have level. Everything would be endgame content. Imagine that for a moment. That seem like a better game than they currently are.
New MMO games launch with level grind, than when people get to max level, they find out that most of the development resources went into non max level content which become meaningless and outleveled. (SWTOR, Rift, WoW, etc)
But if that same game had no levels to begin with, all that content would be endgame instead of the tiny max level stuff.
Levels Segregate the community.
again Prove me wrong!!
Its not definitive. Leveling is a time sink (today) because they make the content so easy a baby can do it. Without challenge anything becomes a time sink (or easy repetitive task).
If strategy (and dare I say story) were elevated to a more complex level it would make the overall process more rewarding in my opinion.
That's because it isn't a debate competition. A discussion does not necessarely require that the "for"-side presents any arguments supporting their claim. It is completely possible to create a discussion where a statement has been made and people can attempt to prove that the statement false while other people can attempt to prove that the "proof" is insufficient or wrong.
Possible, sure. If you can sucker other people into doing your work for you.
I prefer to leave the burden where it belongs. I'll believe the assertion made by his title, when he provides sufficient and compelling evidence.
There is no natural law stating where the burden belongs. I've already previously stated why there is a rational reason to put the burden in a certain place when it comes to judicial proceedings, but that's not applicable here.
There are very few natural laws period thus there are very few natural laws one could use to support any position at all.
In the past we did not put the burden of proof on the person making the claim and have all sorts of good stories coming from that. Witch hunts, crusades, McCarthy witch hunts.
Anyone who makes a claim, the burden is on them to provide justification for that claim - not doing so means the person is just looking to start an argument (and not a debate argument) and is not worthy of my time.
Your response however was worthy of my time. You did supply reason for your position, its just not one I agree with.
I would agree that levels grinds are more in place to separate us from competing content and push us through generic questing hubs and for us to see the world more than anything. This is because at the heart of most MMORPG's, we're not playing in worlds, we're playing in questing hubs. If you were allowed to blow through content being maxed level than the game wouldn't last because there's not much to the games besides leveling.
It would require MMORPG's to become more sandboxish where the world, community and human interaction become the driving factor of the game. That or just dumb the games down even further.
Comments
Pretty much, levels are extrinsic motivators ("carrots") to distract you from the fact that you're not having fun. Get the next carrot, and at least for a little while, it will feel good! The purpose of levels is to keep stringing you along in this fashion.
The reasons that developers use it are 1) it works on a lot of people, 2) it's easy, and 3) they really don't know how to make a fun game that will actually entertain people for hundreds/thousands of hours otherwise.
If you can hook them up on number 3, I'm sure plenty of developers are happy to change their tune. But most game designers AND players--even all those who are really serious about MMO design--don't understand how to make games fun. Most still take a feature-based approach to design, where if they combine the right ingredients, it should be good. They don't actually understand the subtleties of it--the math behind the scenes that determines how the dish turns out.
Imagine if someone mixes all the ingredients of a hamburger together, but mashes it into one big ball of hamburger paste. Will it be good? Maybe. But in the likely event that it isn't, wouldn't it be kind of ridiculous for them to say, "What? It's a hamburger! You love hamburgers!" That's where most MMO designers (and players) are at.
And honestly, if you want to solve that, a lot of people need to get over their aversion to Kickstarter/crowdfunding, because that's really the only avenue for developers to prove that there are other ways.
The ride has to be enjoyable for that to happen. Killing monster for weeks without any discernable improvement, or new abilities is not that fun.
Fast leveling is more fun is not because you get to end game faster. It is because you get a new ability (or power up) to try out more frequently, and you get to fight new tougher monster in new areas faster.
Levelling up = slot machine
Sit down - push buttons for a few hours - hear dings and get rewards.
Once the rewards stop coming easily or at all at endgame people get mad.
This also explains why everyone is always looking for the next big thing - they want the rewards to start flowing and make them feel good again.
Even in my first MMORPG the grind got too much after a while. By the mid point of the leveling process, the new abilities were no longer that innovative and did not really require much effort to learn. As the grinds between levels got longer, I realized that it was becoming a slow lobotomy. At the time I was quite depressed to I did not mind how dumbed down the game has become but these days I shudder at the mindlessness of it all. It was like watching a Twilight marathon and actually liking it.
I think the world has ADD.
Slow the row People.
Khm, yes, ... but difference is then that you will get all abilities faster. And then? Sooner or later there is some end to abilities, you can not accumulate houndreds of them .... Game must be fun. So far best ever for me is swtor, leveling is not fast, leveled my 8 alts to 50 in aprox 7 months, but I have enjoyed ride, did nearly all quests, ... shoting is fun, using lightsaber, ... Same for wow. And few others.
That's because it isn't a debate competition. A discussion does not necessarely require that the "for"-side presents any arguments supporting their claim. It is completely possible to create a discussion where a statement has been made and people can attempt to prove that the statement false while other people can attempt to prove that the "proof" is insufficient or wrong.
This is incorrect. I have two characters in the cooker with 3 month skill plan for a specific role (cloak scouts + more). This is considered participating in "end game" There are plenty of things along the way that I could do with these alts, but I decided I do not have the time to do what I wanted to do.
I can have a character doing something in a few days, or a few hours depending the task I want to do. It takes longer for most to figure out WHAT they want to do.
Statement still stands, those games forcing you to level, do not allow you to participate in most groups until you reach the level. Then gear grinds, etc, take over.
Levels come from pen and paper dungeons and dragons. In that game they were an award, you kill a certain number of monsters, get experience points and you level up.
I've also heard that levels allow you to learn how to play by gradually introducing skills.
A sandbox, the four boards and sand kind that you find in playgrounds, doesn't require levels. Everyone has all the skills and abilities as soon as they start. Minecraft is an example.
I think there is room for progression games and sandbox games.
Possible, sure. If you can sucker other people into doing your work for you.
I prefer to leave the burden where it belongs. I'll believe the assertion made by his title, when he provides sufficient and compelling evidence.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Only speaking to the OP, because I don't have time to read this entire thread.
If you're speaking strictly about MMOGs (Massively Multiplayer Online Games) that's cool, get rid of the levels. They're not necessary in a game like Battlefield <whatever>.
If you're speaking to MMORPGS, then you're missing the point completely, and should just stick with MMOs instead. There are plenty of games that don't have a 'grind' in that genre, so there's no need for you to bend another genre to your desire to get what you want.
The RPG part of MMORPG stands for Role-Playing Game, and part of playing a role is watching the character you're playing progress. The original intent was to step into a characters life and watch them mature, like reading a good book.
That doesn't work for MMO games because the focus there is on the action not the character.
Similarly, dropping the character out of an MMORPG doesn't work because the focus should be on the character instead of the action. You may not like that, but then again you might not be playing the right game.
In other words, if you don't like Horror Movies you probably wont like Ju-on. That doesn't mean it should be remade into a movie about rainbow kisses and unicorn princesses.
I've noticed a lot of people here seem to think that, despite how discussion in the real world works.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The leveling can be fun if the quests or low level dungeons are actually entertaining. And I bet every game has at least a few of these.
I also think most modern games make the leveling of the first character fun. Depending on the size of the game and the difference between classes, even the next few can be fun if things change sufficiently. Once you trot character number 6 through the motions, yea, everything will eventually get boring.
This isn't a court of law. At best it's a debate. In competitive debate, a statement is made which is what the OP has done. From there the For side must prove that the statement is correct with arguments, and the Against side must refute the arguments. The Against side is not required to propose an alternative. So, the OP must present arguments in favor of their statement, proving it to be correct. The opposition must refute the arguments, or present arguments that directly counter the original statement. At the end, judges must vote and declare a winner, or declare everyone bad at debate. So, where are our judges? No judges? Is there a rule to cover this? What?!? There are no rules? How is this even a debate? It's not really a debate? Free For All? How does that even work? Oh. Right. People get distracted and eventually post in other threads.
That's because it isn't a debate competition. A discussion does not necessarely require that the "for"-side presents any arguments supporting their claim. It is completely possible to create a discussion where a statement has been made and people can attempt to prove that the statement false while other people can attempt to prove that the "proof" is insufficient or wrong.
I know. At first I was suggesting a set of rules that best fit our venue. Then I was just mocking the idea of arguing about the rules in a scenario where there are no rules.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
And then you finished, and move to the next game.
To me the best part of most MMo's is the leveling up! I lose interest in the end games as they are mostly repeat the same, raid, dungeon, or daily for better gear thats only important if used in the elite version of the same content. Boring!!!! The games that held my interest the longest were EQ (never did finish leveling in it), SWG (didn't feel like I was repeating the same ole worn out missions), and DAoC (RvR really added an element with realm pride). Hopefully some designers can come up with random mission/dungeon/raid/RvR material that is both relevant and keeps my interest in continuing to play.
As far as no leveling games go, simple shooter types are fun for a few hours, but not something I'm going to sink a lot of time in as I do a regular MMO.
Sure, "because I said so, prove me wrong" is just such a compelling argument. we shouldn't ever call folks out for making it.
Welcome back to kindergarten.
Where did this "rule" come from (hint: it wasn't court)
Otherwise, any and every idiot claim and false statement would have to be disproven in order to even live a somewhat normal existence. Allow me to demonstrate ‘there is a purple dragon behind the moon that created the earth…now prove me wrong’.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Depends from MMO. Leveling in SWTOR was definitely not mindless time sink. It was exciting.
Sith Warrior - Story of Hate and Love http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxKrlwXt7Ao
Imperial Agent - Rise of Cipher Nine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBBj3eJWBvU&feature=youtu.be
Imperial Agent - Hunt for the Eagle Part 1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQqjYYU128E
There is no natural law stating where the burden belongs. I've already previously stated why there is a rational reason to put the burden in a certain place when it comes to judicial proceedings, but that's not applicable here.
Its not definitive. Leveling is a time sink (today) because they make the content so easy a baby can do it. Without challenge anything becomes a time sink (or easy repetitive task).
If strategy (and dare I say story) were elevated to a more complex level it would make the overall process more rewarding in my opinion.
Don't see that anytime soon though.
There are very few natural laws period thus there are very few natural laws one could use to support any position at all.
In the past we did not put the burden of proof on the person making the claim and have all sorts of good stories coming from that. Witch hunts, crusades, McCarthy witch hunts.
Anyone who makes a claim, the burden is on them to provide justification for that claim - not doing so means the person is just looking to start an argument (and not a debate argument) and is not worthy of my time.
Your response however was worthy of my time. You did supply reason for your position, its just not one I agree with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof
Just some interesting articles about burden of proof.
I would agree that levels grinds are more in place to separate us from competing content and push us through generic questing hubs and for us to see the world more than anything. This is because at the heart of most MMORPG's, we're not playing in worlds, we're playing in questing hubs. If you were allowed to blow through content being maxed level than the game wouldn't last because there's not much to the games besides leveling.
It would require MMORPG's to become more sandboxish where the world, community and human interaction become the driving factor of the game. That or just dumb the games down even further.