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I wanted to vomit.

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  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529
    Originally posted by Scot
     

    Here he goes again! OK lets say they are making more money as you seem to get of on that so much. Where is that money going? Because it does not seem to be going back into the MMO product as much as it does in new content for P2P MMO's.

    If all this extra money F2P MMO's are making is just going into investors pockets why should we care that they are making more money? As a player, if it is not being invested back into the game making big bucks is meaningless.

    F2P overall makes more money than P2P and it makes sense as a player, you'd want the game dev to make money.

    'Make money = longer game stays on' is not exactly a hard logic to understand.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,401
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by Scot
     

    Here he goes again! OK lets say they are making more money as you seem to get of on that so much. Where is that money going? Because it does not seem to be going back into the MMO product as much as it does in new content for P2P MMO's.

    If all this extra money F2P MMO's are making is just going into investors pockets why should we care that they are making more money? As a player, if it is not being invested back into the game making big bucks is meaningless.

    F2P overall makes more money than P2P and it makes sense as a player, you'd want the game dev to make money.

    'Make money = longer game stays on' is not exactly a hard logic to understand.

    So you like FarmVille much?

    Please look at WHICH f2p games are earning the money...

  • SquishydewSquishydew Member UncommonPosts: 1,107

    I still want subscriptions back, i dont care for any free2play model I've seen, even purely cosmetic ones kind of annoy me, when i buy a game i want the full package, i don't want restrictions, i paid.

    Unfortunately I seem to be the only one who thinks like this.

  • XthosXthos Member UncommonPosts: 2,740

    I think f2p is a broken model, you get a small amount of people paying, and a bunch of people leeching off of their paying.  I do not think this promotes a game getting better.  I also think it often leads to putting too much in a cash shop that is not purely cosmetic.

     

    B2p is better, but over the longhaul, they will have the same problems and need to resort to the same things that f2p does, if not from the start.  If expensions come out often enough, and they charge for extra content, then it may be sustainable.

     

    Sub based play, should offer the best chance to make a mmo better over time.  It also should promote a cosmetic only cash shop (it really should have no shop imo, but people are greedy).  This is the most critical model though, a game has to be good to keep people.

     

    I am purely talking about real MMOs, not LoL or other games.  I play LoL, and f2p is fine for it, they do not have a lot of reinvestment needed.  They do not have a ton of different boards to play and such, so the game does not need to suck a bunch of money back into it to maintain itself. 

     

  • XthosXthos Member UncommonPosts: 2,740
    Originally posted by Agoden

    I still want subscriptions back, i dont care for any free2play model I've seen, even purely cosmetic ones kind of annoy me, when i buy a game i want the full package, i don't want restrictions, i paid.

    Unfortunately I seem to be the only one who thinks like this.

    +1

     

    I want to know what I am paying, for everyone to be on even ground, and no p2w stuff going around.  I do not even like xp potions in f2p games, I think that is beyond cosmetic.  I wish someone would come out with a quality mmo that is p2p, and no cash shop period. 

  • Ladrann27Ladrann27 Member Posts: 43

    I also want subscriptions back, to me a game goes F2P because it is simply not good enough to have a subscription model. All, or atleast most of the games that went F2P are failed clones of other games, or another game if you will.

     

    Look at the (still) market leader, that game still has a subscription model, you do not hear people complain about that. Why? Because it is a good game that people would gladly pay a monthly sub for.

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser Member Posts: 1,873
    Originally posted by f0dell54
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by nakuma

    Having played MMO's since late 90's and as well as played multiple F2P MMO's and sub turned F2P (death sentence for most games)

     

    For those who adore F2P (aka Pay to Win )and think they actually pay less than a Sub based game, Here is an old saying " A fool and his money are soon parted".

     

    Now, if you prefer a F2P game fine, but don't try to filter in misinformation that F2P are cheaper than a Sub based game. I have played multiple and done my diligence on multiple games (most recently being NWN mmo, and numerous other MMO's that vary from american based F2P to korean F2P e.g. runes of magic, SOTNW, etc) and holy crap you you can far exceed money spent on a $50 base fee game + $15 a month well under a month if your not careful. Between vanity pets, numerous "lock boxes" various special items, premium upgrades etc (NWN being a major offender with the nightmare box ). anyhoo, I think a lot of young players need to realize two things when picking a game. A) Realize you are going to be spending money either up front or later! unless you want to grind the hell out of a game for months on end, but Frankly I do not know anyone in their right mind would "enjoy" that. or B) get a decent paying job so you can support your habit/entertainment of gaming. If not, stop complaining about cost and damn sure stop spreading misinformation that F2P games are cheaper than Sub based P2P games. If you think they won't nickel and dime the hell out of you, you are sorely mistaken.  So if you are going to play F2P 2 options here, keep your credit card handy or be content with grinding the hell out the game to keep up with other premium players ($15 option) or P2W players.

     

    I for one play only sub based games. F2P while fun inititally (depending on the quality) I find out the game is far from free in the sense that to truly experience them smoothly and comfortably you have to dole out some money. where as SUb based I pay entry fee $50 usually if its a new release + $15 per month. BUt also realize I have a decent job, I will gladly pay $15 per month if the game is good quality and has a good amount of content. F2P you get to experience only part of the game the rest you have to spend money that can often exceed the amount you pay for a sub game.

    I have played every F2P MMO on market extensively and haven't spent a dime on cash shop. Although sometimes i do buy some currency for as low as 10 bucks to show my support for devs for many many hours of fun. That is only fair considering devs need to make money to feed their families.

    But please continue to assume that all those who adore F2P MMOS are some kind of fools who don't know how to manage their money.

    I think it's cute when people over exaggerate to try to prove a point.

    I don't think you know what that word means. I have many many hours on raptr recorded and it scares me sometimes how much time i have spent playing games like STO, NW, Aion, SWTOR...and many more.

    What is cute however is that you think i am exaggerating even though i have one to two characters sitting at level caps in all F2P MMOs with decent time invested in it.

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • jpnzjpnz Member Posts: 3,529
    Originally posted by hfztt
     

    So you like FarmVille much?

    Please look at WHICH f2p games are earning the money...

    This post makes zero logical sense. A business model = / = liking the game.

    I don't like Jazz even though I buy them by paying $$$.

    I like Classics even though I buy them by paying $$$.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by jpnz
    There are research out there that states f2p players pay less overall compared to p2p. Mmos get more f2p players to cover that gap.

    And research shows that f2p players outnumbered p2p ones 6 to 1 in the US. Hence in the US, f2p is making as much (or more by now) money than p2p.

    Here he goes again! OK lets say they are making more money as you seem to get of on that so much. Where is that money going? Because it does not seem to be going back into the MMO product as much as it does in new content for P2P MMO's.

    If all this extra money F2P MMO's are making is just going into investors pockets why should we care that they are making more money? As a player, if it is not being invested back into the game making big bucks is meaningless.

    Content updates and in game events are far more frequent in F2P games than they are in subscription games. As with your other post, you probably want to take a step back and look at your stance again, because... wow.

    The F2P dev creates new content with the money they get and gives it to the players for free, while most subscription devs regularly create new content with the money they get from their players and sell that content back to the players for an additional 40-60 dollars. Even if your argument is that F2P devs sell the content back to the players (in the case of most seasonal content, major updates and in game events that would generally be false) it still reinforces that the money for F2P games does go back into the game.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser Member Posts: 1,873
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by jpnz
    There are research out there that states f2p players pay less overall compared to p2p. Mmos get more f2p players to cover that gap.

    And research shows that f2p players outnumbered p2p ones 6 to 1 in the US. Hence in the US, f2p is making as much (or more by now) money than p2p.

     

    Here he goes again! OK lets say they are making more money as you seem to get of on that so much. Where is that money going? Because it does not seem to be going back into the MMO product as much as it does in new content for P2P MMO's.

    If all this extra money F2P MMO's are making is just going into investors pockets why should we care that they are making more money? As a player, if it is not being invested back into the game making big bucks is meaningless.

    Is that a fact? got anything to back it up?

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432


    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    What is cute however is that you think i am exaggerating even though i have one to two characters sitting at level caps in all F2P MMOs with decent time invested in it.
    I am truly impressed. Check out this list of "all F2P MMOs" here at MMORPG.com. You have 1 to 2 characters sitting at level cap in "all F2P MMOs"? Simply astounding!

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • MuruganMurugan Member Posts: 1,494
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by jpnz
    There are research out there that states f2p players pay less overall compared to p2p. Mmos get more f2p players to cover that gap.

    And research shows that f2p players outnumbered p2p ones 6 to 1 in the US. Hence in the US, f2p is making as much (or more by now) money than p2p.

    Here he goes again! OK lets say they are making more money as you seem to get of on that so much. Where is that money going? Because it does not seem to be going back into the MMO product as much as it does in new content for P2P MMO's.

    If all this extra money F2P MMO's are making is just going into investors pockets why should we care that they are making more money? As a player, if it is not being invested back into the game making big bucks is meaningless.

    Content updates and in game events are far more frequent in F2P games than they are in subscription games. As with your other post, you probably want to take a step back and look at your stance again, because... wow.

    The F2P dev creates new content with the money they get and gives it to the players for free, while most subscription devs regularly create new content with the money they get from their players and sell that content back to the players for an additional 40-60 dollars. Even if your argument is that F2P devs sell the content back to the players (in the case of most seasonal content, major updates and in game events that would generally be false) it still reinforces that the money for F2P games does go back into the game.

     

    Every subscription MMO I have played with the exception of SOE titles has had regular content updates provided to the core game.  Expansions are separate from that (they also should be designed and worked on by a different team from the one providing patches), and many F2P developers have expansions too.  In fact I think it is a real shame that some F2P MMO's who were supposed to have been "saved" by F2P never got expansion level content additions to their games after their transition.

     

    F2P games take a good portion of their profits and invest it into developing items and lead-ins for their cash shops.  That is just the facts of the business, it is their only source of income it must be their priority.  Subscription MMO's are only developing content for playing players with an eye to keep them entertained and subscribing. 

     

    I'll take subscription.

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser Member Posts: 1,873
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    What is cute however is that you think i am exaggerating even though i have one to two characters sitting at level caps in all F2P MMOs with decent time invested in it.

    I am truly impressed. Check out this list of "all F2P MMOs" here at MMORPG.com. You have 1 to 2 characters sitting at level cap in "all F2P MMOs"? Simply astounding!

     

    I thought it was given that we are talking about P2P MMOS that went F2P and not every single cheap Asian MMO ever made? why do you guys do this? even though you know exactly what this topic is about and what F2P MMOS we are talking about here?

    When i say all F2P MMOS i am not talking about entire F2P list on mmorpg.com. This topic is about the current trend of more P2P MMOS going F2P and how players do not favor paying 15 bucks a month. If you had bothered to read my earlier post in context it was written you would already know that.

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • faxnadufaxnadu Member UncommonPosts: 940
    Originally posted by Antiquated
    Originally posted by Khorrax
    melodramatic

    +1. 

     

    and shit happens move on.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432


    Originally posted by Doogiehowser

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    What is cute however is that you think i am exaggerating even though i have one to two characters sitting at level caps in all F2P MMOs with decent time invested in it.
    I am truly impressed. Check out this list of "all F2P MMOs" here at MMORPG.com. You have 1 to 2 characters sitting at level cap in "all F2P MMOs"? Simply astounding!
    I thought it was given that we are talking about P2P MMOS that went F2P and not every single cheap Asian MMO ever made? why do you guys do this? even though you know exactly what this topic is about and what F2P MMOS we are talking about here?When i say all F2P MMOS i am not talking about entire F2P list on mmorpg.com. This topic is about the current trend of more P2P MMOS going F2P and how players do not favor paying 15 bucks a month. If you had bothered to read my earlier post in context it was written you would already know that.
    Apparently not. To me, "ALL F2P MMOs" means all. Every last one. There were no "qualifiers" mentioned, anywhere, like "all P2P to F2P minus Asian Crap MMOs" or some such.

    The general gist of the posts are about simple F2P vs P2P, not all these now introduced qualifiers.. Your post indicated ALL F2P MMOs.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser Member Posts: 1,873
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Doogiehowser

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    What is cute however is that you think i am exaggerating even though i have one to two characters sitting at level caps in all F2P MMOs with decent time invested in it.

    I am truly impressed. Check out this list of "all F2P MMOs" here at MMORPG.com. You have 1 to 2 characters sitting at level cap in "all F2P MMOs"? Simply astounding!
    I thought it was given that we are talking about P2P MMOS that went F2P and not every single cheap Asian MMO ever made? why do you guys do this? even though you know exactly what this topic is about and what F2P MMOS we are talking about here?

     

    When i say all F2P MMOS i am not talking about entire F2P list on mmorpg.com. This topic is about the current trend of more P2P MMOS going F2P and how players do not favor paying 15 bucks a month. If you had bothered to read my earlier post in context it was written you would already know that.


    Apparently not. To me, "ALL F2P MMOs" means all. Every last one. There were no "qualifiers" mentioned, anywhere, like "all P2P to F2P minus Asian Crap MMOs" or some such.

     

    The general gist of the posts are about simple F2P vs P2P, not all these now introduced qualifiers.. Your post indicated ALL F2P MMOs.

    Read the OP again and read the post  i was replying to with that quote you highlighted. The general gist of this topic has been mostly about how more and more players prefer current crop of F2P model over P2P MMOS.

    The list you are showing me has Asian MMOS that have existed a long before this trend started out in west. But that is not what this topic is about.

    So when i say all F2P MMOS obviously i am not including every single Asian MMO that have existed much before the current shift in favor of F2P and B2P MMOS in western market.

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432


    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    ...
    OK

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • Mors.MagneMors.Magne Member UncommonPosts: 1,549
    I don't mind paying a subscription to Eve Online because it's a way of ensuring that all the assets I have built up in that game remain for the foreseeable future. It also ensures further improvements. The great thing is that a lot of people seem to agree with me.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,445
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by jpnz
    There are research out there that states f2p players pay less overall compared to p2p. Mmos get more f2p players to cover that gap.

    And research shows that f2p players outnumbered p2p ones 6 to 1 in the US. Hence in the US, f2p is making as much (or more by now) money than p2p.

    Here he goes again! OK lets say they are making more money as you seem to get of on that so much. Where is that money going? Because it does not seem to be going back into the MMO product as much as it does in new content for P2P MMO's.

    If all this extra money F2P MMO's are making is just going into investors pockets why should we care that they are making more money? As a player, if it is not being invested back into the game making big bucks is meaningless.

    Content updates and in game events are far more frequent in F2P games than they are in subscription games. As with your other post, you probably want to take a step back and look at your stance again, because... wow.

    The F2P dev creates new content with the money they get and gives it to the players for free, while most subscription devs regularly create new content with the money they get from their players and sell that content back to the players for an additional 40-60 dollars. Even if your argument is that F2P devs sell the content back to the players (in the case of most seasonal content, major updates and in game events that would generally be false) it still reinforces that the money for F2P games does go back into the game.

     

    I will accept that the P2P model involves selling content back to the player, but there have been exceptions. Lotro had loads of free content, huge new gaming areas, before it changed to its hybrid model. I also know that F2P MMOs often launch updates that require you to pay for them to access things like new classes, so its not all one way.

    But I do not believe F2P devs are dropping new content on players like mana from heaven. F2P MMO's seem to take ages to get updates, with a few exceptions like Atlantica Online. Now admittedly I have played no F2P MMO's for more than a few months. Many P2P, B2P and hybrid models though. My impression from the sites I visit and from gaming friends is that F2P MMO's are slower updating.

    Might I add that if F2P MMOs do receive more updates than I believe (and I realise my sample of MMOs is weighted against F2P) that may be down to P2P MMO's being more top notch graphically. I am sure we have all seen those 'which games are best graphics wise' that players love to do videos and pictures about. F2P never seems to get in the top rankings there.

     

  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,749
    As far as I'm concerned, if a game isn't worth paying a subscription for, then it isn't worth playing for free.  I play games for their quality, not their business model.  I've yet to play a F2P game or a converted one that either had or maintained the quality of a game built with the subscription model in mind.  I don't know if it's due to costs or something else, but the motivations to make a great game are not the same between the two business models.

    image
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,445
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    As far as I'm concerned, if a game isn't worth paying a subscription for, then it isn't worth playing for free.  I play games for their quality, not their business model.  I've yet to play a F2P game or a converted one that either had or maintained the quality of a game built with the subscription model in mind.  I don't know if it's due to costs or something else, but the motivations to make a great game are not the same between the two business models.

    I think we are going to end up with one model, a hybrid one where the only difference will be if a sub is compulsory or not. The "F2P" ones will all have subs but you wont need them to play and the "P2P" ones will all have cash shops. P2W will be the norm.

    So why I agree with you we will see even less to distinguish these two models in the future. I notice that MMORPG.com uses the term "item Mail" to show a MMO on its Gamelist is F2P. The cash shop is what this is all about, it defines where the genre is going more than F2P or P2P.

  • WaterlilyWaterlily Member UncommonPosts: 3,105
    Originally posted by Eir_S

    And I think there's always going to be the Gun Jumping contingent that feel that simply because someone doesn't want to pay means they can't.  Fortunately, you're wrong and subs are going the way of the dodo either way.

    Nothing dies as fast as a F2P game. How long does it take before 90% of the playerbase has bailed on an F2P game? 6 minutes? 7?

    Maybe we should ask that guy from this forum who keeps hopping from MMO to MMO how long he stays in an F2P, I bet he's onto another MMO before the evening is over.

    And who can blame you people. You have 1001 shallow and meaningless F2P to choose from.

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,152
    Originally posted by Khorrax
     Both you and the guy you quoted are a bit melodramatic, but he has a point. Subscriptions are a thing of the past, and I think it's a good thing. I'm a fan of the 'buy to play' model, since I started with Guild Wars, but 'free to play' allowed me to play games I would have otherwise not tried. I'm not picky, as long as the business model is fair.

     

    Subs are not a thing of the past, its that F2P is a fad right now, but look at the games in development now, and you will see most of them are sub games.

    F2P games have ALWAYS been sub par to games like DAOC, or EVE, where there will ALWAYS be a sub, because the games are that good.

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Waterlily
     

    Nothing dies as fast as a F2P game. How long does it take before 90% of the playerbase has bailed on an F2P game? 6 minutes? 7?

    Maybe we should ask that guy from this forum who keeps hopping from MMO to MMO how long he stays in an F2P, I bet he's onto another MMO before the evening is over.

     

    And we can hop back when there is new content. Hopping is great.

     

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,152
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Waterlily
     

    Nothing dies as fast as a F2P game. How long does it take before 90% of the playerbase has bailed on an F2P game? 6 minutes? 7?

    Maybe we should ask that guy from this forum who keeps hopping from MMO to MMO how long he stays in an F2P, I bet he's onto another MMO before the evening is over.

     

    And we can hop back when there is new content. Hopping is great.

     

     

    This is exactly why there are so many crappy MMOs right now......

    image
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