Originally posted by Mtibbs1989 It's not pay to win. You're just playing with your wallet until endgame then you have to work a little bit for the rest of the equipment.
Folk who have no idea what "pay to win" means. I still havn'mt found an mmorpg that had a win condition. They all seem to keep going forever.
Literally within 5 minutes of reaching level 60 (max atm) you can buy all the gear you need to raid. I thought we weren't going pay to win Trion? what happened there? I know you can buy your PvP kit as well not sure what impact that will have, but I am sure it won't be all that great.
Why sell gear at all? It is so unnecessary, sell mounts, pets, wardrobe and dimension (think housing) items and you will make heaps. But selling start raiding armor and weapons, to me that is exactly what paytowin is.
Just my opinions, I am sure most will disagree, but this game, just broke for me.
Listen to me very carefully, my friend. What you see now in the cash shop it's nothing, compared with how the CS will "look-like" in the upcoming months. This is how they start. At first, they told you that selling X,Y,Z item is fine and it's not P2W and that it gives new players (noobs) a "possibility", to catch up with the elders.
After few months , guess what? "BUY NOW - This limited item(pack) which will helps you "kill them all" ! YOU don't want to lose this. Only 99.99$. Bonus : 3 Scrolls which increase your attack by 9999 for 2 hours and a Thank you for playing Rift " .
Run! I am not joking! Run...
This may or may not pan out to be true. But regardless, I've played and left many MMOs. But typically, while the content is good, I play and don't typically leave the game until AFTER content that I don't like is introduced.
Are you suggesting passing up several months of good free game play on the count that it MIGHT (big crystal balls here) go bad at some point? Why not play and leave then?
Yes, I am sorry! I am not playing the game. I never did. And you are...right somehow , play the game until something it's add to the game that it does not "work" with you. This is what I did (somehow) with Aion and Lineage 2.
I think I was in the same boat as many of you, when Aion or Lineage 2 became F2P. I told myself that they will not add over-power items, well , few months later, they did and of course it will happen with Rift too, someday !
Play it and enjoy it now! You are.. excited about a new beginning and you don't want something bad to happen to your game. It's...understandable Hope I am wrong however.
Have fun!
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
Would a Power Leveling service be convenient? Yup, sure would, so convenient that I wouldn't have to waste any of my time leveling.
What I am doing is using your argument of "Rift selling gear is convenient so it is good", and using it on something most everybody says is bad.
You see getting to buy gear after you level as convenient, I can argue that buying a character at max level would be MORE convenient.
Any time a publisher begins to sell convenience, they start down a slippery slope. Today it is entry level raid gear so you can start to raid, when they want to bring in the next wave, then they sell the next tier of gear, and so on , and so on. That is the problem with selling convenience. What is convenient today is not tomorrow. But, since you already set the precedent you are stuck upping the ante.
As far as you defining Pay to Win, I would like to point out that this gear drops based on a roll system. Meaning to get a piece you need to WIN a roll............So yes I CAN argue, buying gear is PAYING TO WIN, the gear roll at least.
Later Later
I'm not seeing your PL point. People have been selling PL services for plat for quite a while now. You can even do it cross server. It's not something I believe in doing, but if that's how someone wants to roll why not let them?
What slippery slope exactly does selling convenience put us down? What horrible consequence is waiting at the bottom of the slide?
You're wrong with your last statement. Equivalent gear is not rng based. It is mostly token based. All the rng gear that drops in dungeons is crap and vendor/runebreak fodder. You can craft better gear. All the sourcestone gear is also not rng based. The only good rng based gear are the weapons from boss chests and you can't buy that directly with credits (although you could buy an orange lockbox and hope to get lucky).
My PL point concerned the claim that it was merely "convenience" to have gear sold in the CS, I was arguing that it would also be "Convenient" to have PL, or just buy max level toons. What players do with in game plat or time wasn't part of the argument, what Trion is selling is, would you so callously support Trion selling, or leveling toons? Doubtfull.
The slippery slope, as I thought I mentioned, is "Today it is entry level gear, tomorrow it is tier 2 raid gear, next update it is PvP gear, just to be convenient, and next update it is tier 3 raid gear." May be some hyperbole there.
I am slightly confused by your statement in the end, that claims that all this gear they are selling is fodder for runebreaking, yet this thread is about Trion selling the gear to raid in.
Hope it all works out for Rift fans. Like I said, I quit long before F2P.
Just felt like some semantics arguments might be fun today.
Listen to me very carefully, my friend. What you see now in the cash shop it's nothing, compared with how the CS will "look-like" in the upcoming months. This is how they start. At first, they told you that selling X,Y,Z item is fine and it's not P2W and that it gives new players (noobs) a "possibility", to catch up with the elders.
After few months , guess what? "BUY NOW - This limited item(pack) which will helps you "kill them all" ! YOU don't want to lose this. Only 99.99$. Bonus : 3 Scrolls which increase your attack by 9999 for 2 hours and a Thank you for playing Rift " .
Run! I am not joking! Run...
one of the ... how do I put this nicely...ah...dumbest posts I've ever read on MMORPG. I hope you were being sarcastic because I can't tell. If you were, apologies for my comment.
What do you guys really want? A "Triple A" MMORPG that has no means of earning any money what so ever?
Players want a cash shop built correctly, and not one that relies on supremacy goods and other game breaking item shop purchases.
Correct, but it was already established that these are not supremacy goods, you earn better in-game. The idea of P2W is that NOT paying will severely hamper you in "end game" content, meaning either PvE or PvP. That's simply not the case here. Shoot, you can actually get better gear simply by running dungeons! So how is it pay to win when the majority of people playing at the same level have better stuff than you, even if you purchased it at the cash shop?
It's more like pay to be mediocre. I'm ok with that. I don't know what the big deal is here.
Literally within 5 minutes of reaching level 60 (max atm) you can buy all the gear you need to raid. I thought we weren't going pay to win Trion? what happened there? I know you can buy your PvP kit as well not sure what impact that will have, but I am sure it won't be all that great.
Why sell gear at all? It is so unnecessary, sell mounts, pets, wardrobe and dimension (think housing) items and you will make heaps. But selling start raiding armor and weapons, to me that is exactly what paytowin is.
Just my opinions, I am sure most will disagree, but this game, just broke for me.
Listen to me very carefully, my friend. What you see now in the cash shop it's nothing, compared with how the CS will "look-like" in the upcoming months. This is how they start. At first, they told you that selling X,Y,Z item is fine and it's not P2W and that it gives new players (noobs) a "possibility", to catch up with the elders.
After few months , guess what? "BUY NOW - This limited item(pack) which will helps you "kill them all" ! YOU don't want to lose this. Only 99.99$. Bonus : 3 Scrolls which increase your attack by 9999 for 2 hours and a Thank you for playing Rift " .
Run! I am not joking! Run...
This may or may not pan out to be true. But regardless, I've played and left many MMOs. But typically, while the content is good, I play and don't typically leave the game until AFTER content that I don't like is introduced.
Are you suggesting passing up several months of good free game play on the count that it MIGHT (big crystal balls here) go bad at some point? Why not play and leave then?
Yes, I am sorry! I am not playing the game. I never did. And you are...right somehow , play the game until something it's add to the game that it does not "work" with you. This is what I did (somehow) with Aion and Lineage 2.
I think I was in the same boat as many of you, when Aion or Lineage 2 became F2P. I told myself that they will not add over-power items, well , few months later, they did and of course it will happen with Rift too, someday !
Play it and enjoy it now! You are.. excited about a new beginning and you don't want something bad to happen to your game. It's...understandable Hope I am wrong however.
Have fun!
Here's how I see it.
I played Rappelz for a good 3 or 4 months some time ago. That game has a P2W cash shop. When someone was a heavy cash shop user, you and everyone else knew it. It was undeniable. In Rappelz, the P2W factor came in the form of RNG. In other words, the mechanics for obtaining suff was in the game, but it was all but impossible to get it due to RNG. Unless you bout the modifiers. So if you saw someone with an exceptionally advanced pet, you knew they used the CS, or if they had exceptionally developed gear, etc.
If you are in Rift and you are dungeon PUGing, and the guy next to you has all his gear from the CS, nothing short of him admitting it to you will tip you off that hes a CS user.
I'm not talking about cosmetic items, just purchases that will affect your in game stats. If there is no way to tell if it came from game play or cash shop, then it doesn't affect you. It's not game breaking. It certainly isn't breaking your game or you'd know about it.
What do you guys really want? A "Triple A" MMORPG that has no means of earning any money what so ever?
Players want a cash shop built correctly, and not one that relies on supremacy goods and other game breaking item shop purchases.
Who are these players ? All these free to play games that " players" don't like the way the cash shop is, seem to have an income coming from somewhere.
OK, I've gone back in and have done a deeper investigation. I have actually found P2W in Rift. Seriously. It's there. Those players who will continue to pay a monthly subscription will in fact gain advantages unavailable to anyone else.
OK, I've gone back in and have done a deeper investigation. I have actually found P2W in Rift. Seriously. It's there. Those players who will continue to pay a monthly subscription will in fact gain advantages unavailable to anyone else.
Liar ! You actually made me click on their store !
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
OK, I've gone back in and have done a deeper investigation. I have actually found P2W in Rift. Seriously. It's there. Those players who will continue to pay a monthly subscription will in fact gain advantages unavailable to anyone else.
Liar ! You actually made me click on their store !
OK, I've gone back in and have done a deeper investigation. I have actually found P2W in Rift. Seriously. It's there. Those players who will continue to pay a monthly subscription will in fact gain advantages unavailable to anyone else.
What do you guys really want? A "Triple A" MMORPG that has no means of earning any money what so ever?
Players want a cash shop built correctly, and not one that relies on supremacy goods and other game breaking item shop purchases.
Looking at whats available, I'm having a very difficult time, finding the "supremacy goods"... ^^ Perhaps you would care to provide some examples? All of the things I'm seeing, are rather below what can be gained from runs through various upper level dungeons, let alone the raids.
I wish there was a way to identify players who buy their gear so I can point at them and laugh at them.
"Hey Bob, I see you paid for your gear. Way to go man. You're pretty pro."
lol that would be funny. Everything else about the game I like, more or less, but this was a ridiculous move imo. Selling gear never ends well.
To the ones that say its just starter, yeah it lets you skip all the expert dungeons...do you know the other reason(s) for running experts? To learn some boss mechanics, to learn to play your toon etc etc. Leveling and raiding are way different specs...unless you have no clue about either.
Anyway, yeah pay2win(ish) is about as far as I will bend on this one.
you don't have to play the game... also, if the shop wont sell the actual gear or recieve a huge backlash, they'll probably remove it ?
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
The haters in this thread are missing two really big and glaring obvious points
1. Trion is not a philanthropy organization out to make games at their expense for the good of MMO players everywhere .. they are a business and how exactly do you suppose they keep developers on staff, servers running and internet bills paid with a Free 2 play game ?? Sure it doesn't *have* to be gear, but that also plays into #2
2. Longevity and ability for new players to join .. one of the big downsides of the gear-based progression MMO's is that if you are late to the party, chances are you will have one hell of time getting caught up on gear enough to even GO on the current raids, and in most cases guilds tire of end eventually stop raiding old content, which creates a catch-22. New players cant get the gear they need to raid without doing raiding, but nobody is doing the lesser raids anymore.
to me in makes sense to make the entry level gear purchasable, and keep top-end gear droppable. Its a win-win, new players can get right in and participate, keeping the game fresh and alive, Trion gets funding .. keeping the game funded and alive.
Quite frankly I don't see your problem, if you have the time and will and freinds to achieve without spending a dime, Bravo, why do you even care what others do ?? Well one reason might be if Trion cannot fund the game anymore ... they shut down and you wont be playing any more yourself.
OK, I've gone back in and have done a deeper investigation. I have actually found P2W in Rift. Seriously. It's there. Those players who will continue to pay a monthly subscription will in fact gain advantages unavailable to anyone else.
Liar ! You actually made me click on their store !
When I was a kid growing up, the Lottery system used to run a series of ads using the slogan "You can't win if you don't play."
So, looking at the priority queue bonus for Subsription members, Right there, it's pay to win.
While I am VERY against the P2W cash-shop , I am afraid that the "subscription" I see there, is not (that) P2W. I am all for XP, Drop boost , and stuff like that in the favor of having.......GEAR!
10-15% of XP, Reputation, Mount Speed, etc it's OK for a F2P title. However, this does not change the fact that I see Rift as a P2W because of the Gear they sell in the cash-shop.
Whoever says that Trion is a business company and that they somehow needs to earn some money, I agree. But there are better ways to earn good money and also keep the players for a far more period of time, connected to the game.
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
OK, I've gone back in and have done a deeper investigation. I have actually found P2W in Rift. Seriously. It's there. Those players who will continue to pay a monthly subscription will in fact gain advantages unavailable to anyone else.
Liar ! You actually made me click on their store !
When I was a kid growing up, the Lottery system used to run a series of ads using the slogan "You can't win if you don't play."
So, looking at the priority queue bonus for Subsription members, Right there, it's pay to win.
While I am VERY against the P2W cash-shop , I am afraid that the "subscription" I see there, is not (that) P2W. I am all for XP, Drop boost , and stuff like that in the favor of having.......GEAR!
10-15% of XP, Reputation, Mount Speed, etc it's OK for a F2P title. However, this does not change the fact that I see Rift as a P2W because of the Gear they sell in the cash-shop.
Whoever says that Trion is a business company and that they somehow needs to earn some money, I agree. But there are better ways to earn good money and also keep the players for a far more period of time, connected to the game.
Yes, it is difficult to call it P2W, however, for those who pay, there is more advantage here, then in the cash shop.
OK, I've gone back in and have done a deeper investigation. I have actually found P2W in Rift. Seriously. It's there. Those players who will continue to pay a monthly subscription will in fact gain advantages unavailable to anyone else.
Liar ! You actually made me click on their store !
When I was a kid growing up, the Lottery system used to run a series of ads using the slogan "You can't win if you don't play."
So, looking at the priority queue bonus for Subsription members, Right there, it's pay to win.
While I am VERY against the P2W cash-shop , I am afraid that the "subscription" I see there, is not (that) P2W. I am all for XP, Drop boost , and stuff like that in the favor of having.......GEAR!
10-15% of XP, Reputation, Mount Speed, etc it's OK for a F2P title. However, this does not change the fact that I see Rift as a P2W because of the Gear they sell in the cash-shop.
Whoever says that Trion is a business company and that they somehow needs to earn some money, I agree. But there are better ways to earn good money and also keep the players for a far more period of time, connected to the game.
Yes, it is difficult to call it P2W, however, for those who pay, there is more advantage here, then in the cash shop.
10-15% in plus for XP , currency drop, Reputation, etc is like a free player needs to play 10 hours, beside 9 , as a "subscription" player, which is not THAT bad.
However, if a player pays X amount of cash, in order to get a lvl 60 set gear , which normally should takes weeks to obtain it in-game, than that is P2W, in the 'face" of a free player.
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
OK, I've gone back in and have done a deeper investigation. I have actually found P2W in Rift. Seriously. It's there. Those players who will continue to pay a monthly subscription will in fact gain advantages unavailable to anyone else.
Liar ! You actually made me click on their store !
When I was a kid growing up, the Lottery system used to run a series of ads using the slogan "You can't win if you don't play."
So, looking at the priority queue bonus for Subsription members, Right there, it's pay to win.
While I am VERY against the P2W cash-shop , I am afraid that the "subscription" I see there, is not (that) P2W. I am all for XP, Drop boost , and stuff like that in the favor of having.......GEAR!
10-15% of XP, Reputation, Mount Speed, etc it's OK for a F2P title. However, this does not change the fact that I see Rift as a P2W because of the Gear they sell in the cash-shop.
Whoever says that Trion is a business company and that they somehow needs to earn some money, I agree. But there are better ways to earn good money and also keep the players for a far more period of time, connected to the game.
Yes, it is difficult to call it P2W, however, for those who pay, there is more advantage here, then in the cash shop.
10-15% in plus for XP , currency drop, Reputation, etc is like a free player needs to play 10 hours, beside 9 , as a "subscription" player, which is not THAT bad.
However, if a player pays X amount of cash, in order to get a lvl 60 set gear , which normally should takes weeks to obtain it in-game, than that is P2W, in the 'face" of a free player.
and then the free player can run some dungeons for a week or two and get the gear for free "In the face of the player who paid for it"
MMOs require 3 things from a player
1. Money
2. Time
3. Motivation
Now Trion has said, OK you don't have all 3. Then we are going to allow you to shift 2 of the 3 to account for the lack of the 3rd. So now all you need is any 2 of this equation and the 3rd is optional.
Don't have money...got you coverd, you can take longer to get there, but you can get there if you want.
Don't have Time, good, your money and motivation can make up for the lack of time.
Don't have motivation. Fine...Cash shop caters to the lazy too but it will cost more and probably take longer.
Now, if you can't even come up with at least two out of the 3, it's time to move on. Because at this point, what you would need, actually become game breaking for the players who can meet the requirements.
Literally within 5 minutes of reaching level 60 (max atm) you can buy all the gear you need to raid. I thought we weren't going pay to win Trion? what happened there? I know you can buy your PvP kit as well not sure what impact that will have, but I am sure it won't be all that great.
Why sell gear at all? It is so unnecessary, sell mounts, pets, wardrobe and dimension (think housing) items and you will make heaps. But selling start raiding armor and weapons, to me that is exactly what paytowin is.
Just my opinions, I am sure most will disagree, but this game, just broke for me.
Half information is bad and makes you look bad. The gear you are talking about is entry level gear to help people get ready for more challenging stuff.
I will never understand why you people do this everytime? post mis information without making any effort to first educate yourself on facts?
It is a fact, you can buy entry level gear, buy the stones to upgrade it and have the stats to raid. [mod edit]
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
OK, I've gone back in and have done a deeper investigation. I have actually found P2W in Rift. Seriously. It's there. Those players who will continue to pay a monthly subscription will in fact gain advantages unavailable to anyone else.
Liar ! You actually made me click on their store !
When I was a kid growing up, the Lottery system used to run a series of ads using the slogan "You can't win if you don't play."
So, looking at the priority queue bonus for Subsription members, Right there, it's pay to win.
While I am VERY against the P2W cash-shop , I am afraid that the "subscription" I see there, is not (that) P2W. I am all for XP, Drop boost , and stuff like that in the favor of having.......GEAR!
10-15% of XP, Reputation, Mount Speed, etc it's OK for a F2P title. However, this does not change the fact that I see Rift as a P2W because of the Gear they sell in the cash-shop.
Whoever says that Trion is a business company and that they somehow needs to earn some money, I agree. But there are better ways to earn good money and also keep the players for a far more period of time, connected to the game.
Yes, it is difficult to call it P2W, however, for those who pay, there is more advantage here, then in the cash shop.
10-15% in plus for XP , currency drop, Reputation, etc is like a free player needs to play 10 hours, beside 9 , as a "subscription" player, which is not THAT bad.
However, if a player pays X amount of cash, in order to get a lvl 60 set gear , which normally should takes weeks to obtain it in-game, than that is P2W, in the 'face" of a free player.
and then the free player can run some dungeons for a week or two and get the gear for free "In the face of the player who paid for it"
And in the same time, the player who paid for the gear which the free player still doing that dungeon, to get it, could run better dungeons to acquired even better gear ( or wait till a better gear will be available in the cash-shop ). So in the end, we are talking about how much time a free player needs to spend in order to stay somehow close to a player who spend real-cash in the shop. If we are talking about hours, or even few days, that might be ok, but if we are talking about weeks, or even months, then that's not ok.
Can a Rift player enlighten me, as much time a normal player would spend,getting the lvl 60 gear which is also found in the shop for real money, by doing dungeons? Do the dungeons have a cooldown? If yes, for how long? What are the chances to get 1 set item per run?
I will appreciate a fair answer, as I want to get off this thread
Thank you!
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
Literally within 5 minutes of reaching level 60 (max atm) you can buy all the gear you need to raid. I thought we weren't going pay to win Trion? what happened there? I know you can buy your PvP kit as well not sure what impact that will have, but I am sure it won't be all that great.
Why sell gear at all? It is so unnecessary, sell mounts, pets, wardrobe and dimension (think housing) items and you will make heaps. But selling start raiding armor and weapons, to me that is exactly what paytowin is.
Just my opinions, I am sure most will disagree, but this game, just broke for me.
Listen to me very carefully, my friend. What you see now in the cash shop it's nothing, compared with how the CS will "look-like" in the upcoming months. This is how they start. At first, they told you that selling X,Y,Z item is fine and it's not P2W and that it gives new players (noobs) a "possibility", to catch up with the elders.
After few months , guess what? "BUY NOW - This limited item(pack) which will helps you "kill them all" ! YOU don't want to lose this. Only 99.99$. Bonus : 3 Scrolls which increase your attack by 9999 for 2 hours and a Thank you for playing Rift " .
Run! I am not joking! Run...
Lol, +1 for hilarity.
PS Sorry if you're being serious, maybe my sarcasm detector is off today.
Indeed, my post had some .. hilarity in it , special when explained about the "shop item". But on a serious note, sooner or later, we may see more powerful items in the cash shop.
For the guy above you : Well , are you a teenager ? If yes, then make a group (party) and try ... to mug me. You will succeed in .. having a wipe.
No, I'm not a teenager. I get the impression you only read the first sentence of my reply and not the note under it. Well done.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
OK, I've gone back in and have done a deeper investigation. I have actually found P2W in Rift. Seriously. It's there. Those players who will continue to pay a monthly subscription will in fact gain advantages unavailable to anyone else.
Liar ! You actually made me click on their store !
When I was a kid growing up, the Lottery system used to run a series of ads using the slogan "You can't win if you don't play."
So, looking at the priority queue bonus for Subsription members, Right there, it's pay to win.
While I am VERY against the P2W cash-shop , I am afraid that the "subscription" I see there, is not (that) P2W. I am all for XP, Drop boost , and stuff like that in the favor of having.......GEAR!
10-15% of XP, Reputation, Mount Speed, etc it's OK for a F2P title. However, this does not change the fact that I see Rift as a P2W because of the Gear they sell in the cash-shop.
Whoever says that Trion is a business company and that they somehow needs to earn some money, I agree. But there are better ways to earn good money and also keep the players for a far more period of time, connected to the game.
Yes, it is difficult to call it P2W, however, for those who pay, there is more advantage here, then in the cash shop.
10-15% in plus for XP , currency drop, Reputation, etc is like a free player needs to play 10 hours, beside 9 , as a "subscription" player, which is not THAT bad.
However, if a player pays X amount of cash, in order to get a lvl 60 set gear , which normally should takes weeks to obtain it in-game, than that is P2W, in the 'face" of a free player.
and then the free player can run some dungeons for a week or two and get the gear for free "In the face of the player who paid for it"
And in the same time, the player who paid for the gear which the free player still doing that dungeon, to get it, could run better dungeons to acquired even better gear ( or wait till a better gear will be available in the cash-shop ). So in the end, we are talking about how much time a free player needs to spend in order to stay somehow close to a player who spend real-cash in the shop. If we are talking about hours, or even few days, that might be ok, but if we are talking about weeks, or even months, then that's not ok.
Can a Rift player enlighten me, as much time a normal player would spend,getting the lvl 60 gear which is also found in the shop for real money, by doing dungeons? Do the dungeons have a cooldown? If yes, for how long? What are the chances to get 1 set item per run?
I will appreciate a fair answer, as I want to get off this thread
Thank you!
If I bought the gear, how's that affect your game? If I dungeon grind for gear, how does that affect your game?
The answer to your question BTW is simple. That $15/mo it used to cost you to play Rift that you can now pocket for yourself, is covered by that guy who bought his gear that didn't affect you one way or another.
I think the gear could be considered P2W if you want to get technical about it. But I think it's such a tiny advantage considering how easy it is to obtain the gear that I don't care that it's there. Actually, if I was playing free, it's one of those things I would be glad people are paying for so that I can play the game for free since it's so minor.
OK, I've gone back in and have done a deeper investigation. I have actually found P2W in Rift. Seriously. It's there. Those players who will continue to pay a monthly subscription will in fact gain advantages unavailable to anyone else.
Liar ! You actually made me click on their store !
When I was a kid growing up, the Lottery system used to run a series of ads using the slogan "You can't win if you don't play."
So, looking at the priority queue bonus for Subsription members, Right there, it's pay to win.
While I am VERY against the P2W cash-shop , I am afraid that the "subscription" I see there, is not (that) P2W. I am all for XP, Drop boost , and stuff like that in the favor of having.......GEAR!
10-15% of XP, Reputation, Mount Speed, etc it's OK for a F2P title. However, this does not change the fact that I see Rift as a P2W because of the Gear they sell in the cash-shop.
Whoever says that Trion is a business company and that they somehow needs to earn some money, I agree. But there are better ways to earn good money and also keep the players for a far more period of time, connected to the game.
Yes, it is difficult to call it P2W, however, for those who pay, there is more advantage here, then in the cash shop.
10-15% in plus for XP , currency drop, Reputation, etc is like a free player needs to play 10 hours, beside 9 , as a "subscription" player, which is not THAT bad.
However, if a player pays X amount of cash, in order to get a lvl 60 set gear , which normally should takes weeks to obtain it in-game, than that is P2W, in the 'face" of a free player.
and then the free player can run some dungeons for a week or two and get the gear for free "In the face of the player who paid for it"
And in the same time, the player who paid for the gear which the free player still doing that dungeon, to get it, could run better dungeons to acquired even better gear ( or wait till a better gear will be available in the cash-shop ). So in the end, we are talking about how much time a free player needs to spend in order to stay somehow close to a player who spend real-cash in the shop. If we are talking about hours, or even few days, that might be ok, but if we are talking about weeks, or even months, then that's not ok.
Can a Rift player enlighten me, as much time a normal player would spend,getting the lvl 60 gear which is also found in the shop for real money, by doing dungeons? Do the dungeons have a cooldown? If yes, for how long? What are the chances to get 1 set item per run?
I will appreciate a fair answer, as I want to get off this thread
Thank you!
If I bought the gear, how's that affect your game? If I dungeon grind for gear, how does that affect your game?
The answer to your question BTW is simple. That $15/mo it used to cost you to play Rift that you can now pocket for yourself, is covered by that guy who bought his gear that didn't affect you one way or another.
It's simple! Advantage in front of other player. It may affect my game play, directly or indirectly. In Dungeos, PvP, "Grinding" much faster then me, getting through content much faster then me, and the list may go on.
To the guy above you : For such a reply you gave me earlier, I should have not bother writing, nor reading, so say thanks!
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
Comments
Folk who have no idea what "pay to win" means. I still havn'mt found an mmorpg that had a win condition. They all seem to keep going forever.
Yes, I am sorry! I am not playing the game. I never did. And you are...right somehow , play the game until something it's add to the game that it does not "work" with you. This is what I did (somehow) with Aion and Lineage 2.
I think I was in the same boat as many of you, when Aion or Lineage 2 became F2P. I told myself that they will not add over-power items, well , few months later, they did and of course it will happen with Rift too, someday !
Play it and enjoy it now! You are.. excited about a new beginning and you don't want something bad to happen to your game. It's...understandable
Hope I am wrong however.
Have fun!
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
And ask 100 players to define "a cash shop built correctly", "supremacy goods" and "game breaking item" you will get 100 different answers.
And BTW, I've looked at this shop, I don't see any supremacy goods or game breaking items.
Please list examples of such and how they break the game, and how other games with similar options have similar possibilities without being "broken"
This whole thread is a knee jerk over reaction.
My PL point concerned the claim that it was merely "convenience" to have gear sold in the CS, I was arguing that it would also be "Convenient" to have PL, or just buy max level toons. What players do with in game plat or time wasn't part of the argument, what Trion is selling is, would you so callously support Trion selling, or leveling toons? Doubtfull.
The slippery slope, as I thought I mentioned, is "Today it is entry level gear, tomorrow it is tier 2 raid gear, next update it is PvP gear, just to be convenient, and next update it is tier 3 raid gear." May be some hyperbole there.
I am slightly confused by your statement in the end, that claims that all this gear they are selling is fodder for runebreaking, yet this thread is about Trion selling the gear to raid in.
Hope it all works out for Rift fans. Like I said, I quit long before F2P.
Just felt like some semantics arguments might be fun today.
one of the ... how do I put this nicely...ah...dumbest posts I've ever read on MMORPG. I hope you were being sarcastic because I can't tell. If you were, apologies for my comment.
Correct, but it was already established that these are not supremacy goods, you earn better in-game. The idea of P2W is that NOT paying will severely hamper you in "end game" content, meaning either PvE or PvP. That's simply not the case here. Shoot, you can actually get better gear simply by running dungeons! So how is it pay to win when the majority of people playing at the same level have better stuff than you, even if you purchased it at the cash shop?
It's more like pay to be mediocre. I'm ok with that. I don't know what the big deal is here.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Here's how I see it.
I played Rappelz for a good 3 or 4 months some time ago. That game has a P2W cash shop. When someone was a heavy cash shop user, you and everyone else knew it. It was undeniable. In Rappelz, the P2W factor came in the form of RNG. In other words, the mechanics for obtaining suff was in the game, but it was all but impossible to get it due to RNG. Unless you bout the modifiers. So if you saw someone with an exceptionally advanced pet, you knew they used the CS, or if they had exceptionally developed gear, etc.
If you are in Rift and you are dungeon PUGing, and the guy next to you has all his gear from the CS, nothing short of him admitting it to you will tip you off that hes a CS user.
I'm not talking about cosmetic items, just purchases that will affect your in game stats. If there is no way to tell if it came from game play or cash shop, then it doesn't affect you. It's not game breaking. It certainly isn't breaking your game or you'd know about it.
Who are these players ? All these free to play games that " players" don't like the way the cash shop is, seem to have an income coming from somewhere.
OK, I've gone back in and have done a deeper investigation. I have actually found P2W in Rift. Seriously. It's there. Those players who will continue to pay a monthly subscription will in fact gain advantages unavailable to anyone else.
Liar ! You actually made me click on their store !
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
Not sure if it's in the store.
I was referring to this
http://www.riftgame.com/en/store/#patron
When I was a kid growing up, the Lottery system used to run a series of ads using the slogan "You can't win if you don't play."
So, looking at the priority queue bonus for Subsription members, Right there, it's pay to win.
Yes sir! This is indeed P2W! Keep up the good job
Looking at whats available, I'm having a very difficult time, finding the "supremacy goods"... ^^ Perhaps you would care to provide some examples? All of the things I'm seeing, are rather below what can be gained from runs through various upper level dungeons, let alone the raids.
you don't have to play the game... also, if the shop wont sell the actual gear or recieve a huge backlash, they'll probably remove it ?
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
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Lack of thinking things through FTL,
The haters in this thread are missing two really big and glaring obvious points
1. Trion is not a philanthropy organization out to make games at their expense for the good of MMO players everywhere .. they are a business and how exactly do you suppose they keep developers on staff, servers running and internet bills paid with a Free 2 play game ?? Sure it doesn't *have* to be gear, but that also plays into #2
2. Longevity and ability for new players to join .. one of the big downsides of the gear-based progression MMO's is that if you are late to the party, chances are you will have one hell of time getting caught up on gear enough to even GO on the current raids, and in most cases guilds tire of end eventually stop raiding old content, which creates a catch-22. New players cant get the gear they need to raid without doing raiding, but nobody is doing the lesser raids anymore.
to me in makes sense to make the entry level gear purchasable, and keep top-end gear droppable. Its a win-win, new players can get right in and participate, keeping the game fresh and alive, Trion gets funding .. keeping the game funded and alive.
Quite frankly I don't see your problem, if you have the time and will and freinds to achieve without spending a dime, Bravo, why do you even care what others do ?? Well one reason might be if Trion cannot fund the game anymore ... they shut down and you wont be playing any more yourself.
THINK PEOPLE !
While I am VERY against the P2W cash-shop , I am afraid that the "subscription" I see there, is not (that) P2W. I am all for XP, Drop boost , and stuff like that in the favor of having.......GEAR!
10-15% of XP, Reputation, Mount Speed, etc it's OK for a F2P title. However, this does not change the fact that I see Rift as a P2W because of the Gear they sell in the cash-shop.
Whoever says that Trion is a business company and that they somehow needs to earn some money, I agree. But there are better ways to earn good money and also keep the players for a far more period of time, connected to the game.
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
Yes, it is difficult to call it P2W, however, for those who pay, there is more advantage here, then in the cash shop.
10-15% in plus for XP , currency drop, Reputation, etc is like a free player needs to play 10 hours, beside 9 , as a "subscription" player, which is not THAT bad.
However, if a player pays X amount of cash, in order to get a lvl 60 set gear , which normally should takes weeks to obtain it in-game, than that is P2W, in the 'face" of a free player.
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
and then the free player can run some dungeons for a week or two and get the gear for free "In the face of the player who paid for it"
MMOs require 3 things from a player
1. Money
2. Time
3. Motivation
Now Trion has said, OK you don't have all 3. Then we are going to allow you to shift 2 of the 3 to account for the lack of the 3rd. So now all you need is any 2 of this equation and the 3rd is optional.
Don't have money...got you coverd, you can take longer to get there, but you can get there if you want.
Don't have Time, good, your money and motivation can make up for the lack of time.
Don't have motivation. Fine...Cash shop caters to the lazy too but it will cost more and probably take longer.
Now, if you can't even come up with at least two out of the 3, it's time to move on. Because at this point, what you would need, actually become game breaking for the players who can meet the requirements.
It is a fact, you can buy entry level gear, buy the stones to upgrade it and have the stats to raid. [mod edit]
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
And in the same time, the player who paid for the gear which the free player still doing that dungeon, to get it, could run better dungeons to acquired even better gear ( or wait till a better gear will be available in the cash-shop
). So in the end, we are talking about how much time a free player needs to spend in order to stay somehow close to a player who spend real-cash in the shop. If we are talking about hours, or even few days, that might be ok, but if we are talking about weeks, or even months, then that's not ok.
Can a Rift player enlighten me, as much time a normal player would spend,getting the lvl 60 gear which is also found in the shop for real money, by doing dungeons? Do the dungeons have a cooldown? If yes, for how long? What are the chances to get 1 set item per run?
I will appreciate a fair answer, as I want to get off this thread
Thank you!
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
No, I'm not a teenager. I get the impression you only read the first sentence of my reply and not the note under it. Well done.
If I bought the gear, how's that affect your game? If I dungeon grind for gear, how does that affect your game?
The answer to your question BTW is simple. That $15/mo it used to cost you to play Rift that you can now pocket for yourself, is covered by that guy who bought his gear that didn't affect you one way or another.
It's simple! Advantage in front of other player. It may affect my game play, directly or indirectly. In Dungeos, PvP, "Grinding" much faster then me, getting through content much faster then me, and the list may go on.
To the guy above you : For such a reply you gave me earlier, I should have not bother writing, nor reading, so say thanks!
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!