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Please no DPS meters or mods
rhavok
Member Posts: 117
I really hope DPS meters do not find their way in to this game, and hopefully mods are off the table entirely. A part of my excitement just died a little bit because I realized there are going to be people clamoring for meters so they can feel superior to others. I don't want that in the community of this game and I hope square does not give in to the people who try to demand it on their forums.
The thought of chat filling up with things like "post deeps bro" or " what class brings the most dps" makes my excitement die a little. I can remember great times in Yuhtunga Jungle way back in the day of camping out with a good group and exping off of mobs. No one cared about dps. The thrill was getting that awesome group that clicked.
Final Fantasy is about the story, the journey, and exploration. Final Fantasy XI captured that excellently and we were able to share it others. It wasn't about dividing and competing against people. I hope this mentality carries over into the ARR. I am concerned that it is going to attract a crowd that it is not aimed for.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with those types of games or gamers; It just doesn't fit the FF world. I am worried people will try to force it in, and Square will listen.
Maybe I just need to get in a good, mature linkshell with people from FFXI.
Edit: since it seems most everyone is just reading the original post and not joining the actual discussion, I have decided to edit in my responses into this first post as I am getting tired of repeating myself.
Originally posted by KeyhPeople are going to be elitist assholes no matter what. I, personally enjoy "DPS meters" and think they should have them. I like inching out that 5% more DPS from a spec.
As someone who likes to run and compete in races I can somewhat understand this. I am very competitive against myself and I love the feeling of shaving a second or two off my 5k and 10k times. So I can understand where you are coming from there and respect that.
I guess my concern is that they tend to shift focus the game from the community itself to the player instead. I guess though that is more on the fault of the players though. Perhaps my concern is more against the selfish elitists players that tend to use the meters and would rather call someone's post pointless and insult someone they don't even know for having a differing opinion than theirs rather than being constructive.
Further down in the thread:
I relate to a lot of Yaevin has said. My first MMO was FFXI and I was drawn to it because I am huge FF fan in general. I went from that WoW because I enjoyed the warcraft series and I had friends tell me how awesome it was. I picked it up in December 2004 and played there up until WotLK which was pretty much when the game stopped being fun for me and became nothing but a numbers game.
Learning your rotation to keep the highest dps. "LFM VoA, must bring 3.5k dps or a certains gearscore." And while I did that and researched rotations and number crunched I realized I wasn't having fun anymore. I felt like the game shifted from a group focus to a single player focus. It became more of a "What can this group do for me" rather than "How can I help the group out," In addition it felt like it became a game of efficiency rather than one of fun. "Do this as quickly as possible so we can finish this heroic in twenty minutes and get into another one. I need 300 more points for a new item." Eventually I realized that is not how I wanted to enjoy the game. For me it was a very false sense of accomplishment.
While I have fond memories of vanilla WoW and TBC, my favorite times have been in FFXI, running away from Goblin trains, running to Jeuno while your home point was in Windurst and fearing for your life every time you saw a mob, and even simply thinks like making juice for my summoner friend in between pulls in Yhoator. I have a lot of high hopes that FFXIV will provide the same experience in a way and the beta really has me excited for the launch.
Perhaps I place more blame on certain mods than I should which is something this thread has made me realize. I guess the real concern is a shift in community where it becomes a "What can this group do for me" rather than "How can I help the group out" as I mentioned previously.
Originally posted by jayvierlWoW!. Another person afraid of competition.
I want the dps meters. I want to be able to prove I have the best dps or highest healing.
Honestly, Whats the point of playing a game without this since of competition? I need to feel the progress im makeing. I'm sure I speak for alot of people when I say, I don't play mmo's just to gain exp. I want to be the best! I want to be the best bard I can, and I want to be able to craft the highest level gear I can. I need these mods you speak so poorly about.
If not for the competition, I need the dps meters so I can see how much of an impact I was during that last dungeon. I NEED to see and feel my progress. Without the mods. I personally wouldn't feel the hours, days and nights I put into the game.
I am not sure if this is directed at me, but I have no fear of competition. If you play an MMO to compete that is fine, but not every one plays a game for the same reason you do. I feel no desire to compete with others in an MMO. My goal when I log in is to play with some friends, make some new friends, group up and go have a good time. I am that guy that will pass on a drop when it is an upgrade for me because it is a slightly better upgrade for someone else. My character having the absolute best gear, spec, or whatever is not my primary concern.
Don't get me wrong, I will learn how to play my class so I can perform well enough that we succeed. I tank or heal most of the time and very rarely do people complain when I play either role. In fact some people have said I am the best healer they have had. But that is not why I play an MMO.
I mentioned earlier that I like to run, I run as a way to compete against myself and better myself. The first time I got my 5k time under 25 minutes was the best feeling in the world for me, then when it dropped below 20 it was an even better feeling. Some people run for other reasons. I don't try to force my mentality of running upon them or tell them they are bad at running because they don't enjoy it the way I enjoy it.
If you get that same enjoyment from edging up your DPS up that is fine, more power to you and it makes me want you to have a way to do that then. I have said that perhaps I made an incorrect judgement against the mods themselves when the negativity falls to the player themselves. (I think people are reading my first post and just hitting reply)
My primary fear is that the community will shift into something selfish.
Comments
Totally agree! Got sick of the DPS meter people in WOW and other games...
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
Amen.
Mods in WoW allowed raiders to up their game considerably, which meant Blizzard had to design more and more complicated fights.
Sounds good right?
Well it was at first - but then they really couldn't add any more complexity, so they started just making fights resemble a dance number to memorize steps more than an MMORPG raid boss.
Once these mods became required in order to know the dance moves, Blizzard had to start making the bosses telegraph their dance moves all on their own - which actually made things even easier.
It's just a downward spiral.
Anyone who played WoW for a while knows what GearScore and Quest Helper and all those kinds of mods led to.
Keep non-cosmetic mods out of MMO's please.
I'm torn on the issue. I hope that hundreds of addons don't become the norm like in WoW, where you basically needed to install an entire suite of addon software to raid.
On the other hand, I don't see the issue with DPS meters myself. The two groups that they would impact are:
1) Players who do not understand the basics of their class or the basic game mechanics, and so are unable to contribute and play their part in a group.
2) Players who are in a group with random elitist jerks they don't know who make a big deal out of someone doing 10.74% less damage on a boss fight.
If you are in group 1) then you should take the opportunity to seek out experienced, knowledgeable players to improve your own gameplay. If you are in group 2) then you should take the opportunity to seek out mature players to improve the game experience, which is what FF is all about.
Guns don't kill people and meters don't kill a game.
I honestly cannot see a WoW community transporting itself to FFXIV.
People are going to be elitist assholes no matter what. I, personally enjoy "DPS meters" and think they should have them. I like inching out that 5% more DPS from a spec. But I also don't think that people that don't play that way should be ostracized for their play style. Generally, as long as you're doing something in a group, I don't care, I know that that isn't the case with everyone, but if stuff is dying slower than normal, people are going to be able to tell and will call you out anyway.
Mods like the quest helper, anything with raid timers, etc though are terrible, because it turns into needing them in order to make any sort of progress in raids. Nothing third party should ever be necessary to complete a raid/dungeon.
If you think DPS meters are bad then you're bad. I'm sorry that I have to break it to you. They help you understand and improve on your class and they also help pointing out those who need help playing their class. Many people also enjoy competing with one another to help pass the time or give another purpose to your gameplay.
As I didn't read your pointless post I don't know if you're aware but they intend to implement a damage meter into the game, have a fantastic day!
This from www.darklegacycomics.com:
Way to represent sir. That'll get them over to our cause...
Thank you for proving my point. You will notice in my pointless post that I said there is nothing wrong with the meters or those who enjoy them. I simply said they don't fit with the feeling of FF and FFXI as they can divide the group.
Had you read said pointless post you would have saw that. Instead your alpha nerd kicked and you felt the need to insult me. Which proves exactly why people have such a negative view of dps meters and those who live by them.
_Mods_ (Quest Helper, GTFO, etc) help the fat stay.
DPS Meters help trim the fat
As someone who likes to run and compete in races I can somewhat understand this. I am very competitive against myself and I love the feeling of shaving a second or two off my 5k and 10k times. So I can understand where you are coming from there and respect that.
I guess my concern is that they tend to shift focus the game from the community itself to the player instead. I guess though that is more on the fault of the players though. Perhaps my concern is more against the selfish elitists players that tend to use the meters and would rather call someone's post pointless and insult someone they don't even know for having a differing opinion than theirs rather than being constructive.
My current opinion
People who don't want meter's usually are people who are not hard core raiders and prefer easy and casual content with the same rewards as hardcore players. I have played many mmo's including ff11, wow, rift, aion, dcuo, gw2 and ff14 beta. I have also been a gm in ff11 for 3 years and a gm in wow. Yes there will be the annoying people who brag about dps but overall meters is the best way to judge a persons skill in healing and dps., which is an essential tool for end game raids. This is important because in my opinion most mmos don't want to take the initiative to adjust class changes to evenly fix dps so that everyone is equal. Having meters is 100% proof that some classes could be more overpowered then others, and then they can make adjustments because there's no denying it.
That's a fair assumption as our friend with the "pointless post" post pointed out, the issue is with the players, and those players will find some way of insulting people because that's who they are.
Typically, you can always find some guild with like minded players that will allow you to play without that kind of asshattery/criticism. Being someone who likes DPS meters, I don't like whenever people call for them to be banned/taken away because of a bunch of assholes that I want nothing to do with.
This is actually only indicative to WoW as of late, and not how WoW used to be. It does not make it true for any other game.
Though if one were to think others are bad for not liking DPS meters, then I'd say that's entirely incorrect. In fact, these very same people who would honestly say that aren't likely to be very good at video games themselves. Meters have made games become incredibly simple, with people who don't know how to do things relying on them and others to make builds for them to "get 5% more damage". Then the game has to compensate for such and eventually just implements "dances" in fights just to make things appear for difficult (as someone above me posted).
What games should really focus on is team work and what players should focus on is using their classes to their fullest as opposed to relying on meters to say they're doing good. Case and point Final Fantasy XIV will have Buffing and Support classes that increase the over all DPS of the group, but in using these abilities the one who uses them will get significant attack penalties to themselves. They will be at the bottom of the DPS personally, but the group as a whole will do more damage to a boss by a high percentage.
Example of Skill:
Mage's Ballad: Increased the Mana Regeneration rate of your party, reduces your personal damage by 20%.
http://xivdb.com/?search/!filters/1/IlNLSUxMUzpBU0FfQkFSRDpBQ0FfSU5HQU1FXzEi
This is how WoW also used to be, with classes being able to bring utility to help others -- and to focus on said utilities -- to maximize group potential and not one's own epeen. Much of that was taken away as people demanded abilities that only increased their DPS, and ignored using (especially in Pugs) anything that would lower their personal meter.
This is why (as a whole), many MMORPG gamers view the WoW crowd as newbies of the genre; they only care about their own epeen and will quite often get slaughtered if there is anything group based going on. Now, I say this as someone who has played WoW since it's first beta and only recently quit and not out of any particular dislike for WoW players. It's just the general thought of those who aren't in that particular community. Though I will also say that I don't think they're wrong when looking at it from an outside source.
While meters are great for WoW now, and most can't live without them, it does not change the fact that they pretty much destroyed the game as a whole and trivilized content that would otherwise have been a case of players figuring things out for themselves. The Vanilla days of WoW were great because of this, but not we're just full of people with Epeens who pick on those who are only there to have fun (fun in a MMO? That's so 2003!).
You'll find that the language barrier will also not translate well if and when people whine about their DPS that their meter told them. Implementing these things will just make a few classes being "worthy" of playing, with little to no chances at balancing in the future as Square wants to create a fun experience and make jobs that are more about what they traditional do than being identical to one another in damage and every other aspect.
This will be an interesting endeavor to behold if and when mods are implemented.
X's immature rant is my exact image of what most who insist on dps meters are like. Not a correct generalization I know , but it's unfortunately what I expect from said crowd.
@OP
They already built in Mods directly into the game like an Aggro Mod and a DPS Meter. The issue is the DPS Meter means JACK in FFXIV because of the Limit Breaks. So what if you are doing 199,999 DPS if you are suppost to hit your limit break at a certain point during the fight your 199,999 DPS means nothing because its a wipe. Also so far none of the fights that I have seen have enrage times so DPS also means nothing. Another factor is this, if DPS is not watching their aggro they will pull if they are going full out. If they pull the tank does not have the ability to pull your full on DPS back from the boss and guess what your 199,999 means nothing because your dead. Also if you are going full out on the fight and are not paying attention to your mana or your TP you might as well walk away from the fight because your DPS will go through the floor.
Yoshi-P and his team are making a game where DPS and Resource Management go hand and hand. You will need to be steady DPS most of the time and know when you need to burst. Also with no talent builds or anything like that all DPSers should be about the same and the combos that players can throw will be based off the players not off DPS charts.
I use to be anti-meters of any sort, mainly because I hate when a mmorpg becomes a focus of numbers for the community. But then I realized that as long as a game has a healthy community, there's room for everyone. I generally end up in guilds of like minded folks who are out to explore and enjoy the ambiance of a virtual world, and we don't bother the numbers folks, nor do they bother us. I learn my class, I pull my weight, I never ask for anything and I respect others at all times.
I may never have the highest DPS or the most HP's healed, etc... and the folks who care about that will likely not end up playing with me. But for the friends that I do make along the way, I will be loyal, I'll play my best, I'll never steal from you or take advantage of you, and in the end I will do anything I can to help make it a fun experience for others. And another thing I will never do is slack, I may not use a meter but nobody who does has ever bitched at me either.
Today I have no issue with people using meters. I don't prefer to use them, and if that makes me a baddie then so be it
To each their own, I say.
Indeed. We also saw some strange things last beta whereby a group agrees the gladiator is the main tank, but the MRD kept on doing the AoE Threat attack simply because "it did the most damage". Then he got mad when the gladiator since he couldn't hold aggro (and had no tools to go against an AoE attack that did damage and had increased emnity). The MRD said he was just doing his job in getting that extra 20% damage or whatever and he wasn't in the fault.
This is what many call the "WoW mentality" in that they apply WoW to every game they come across, and see WoW in every game they partake in. They also assume all systems work like WoW.
DPS meters, and mods like Gearscore however dont help at all. I agree, theyre detrimental to others more than they help. They should definitely keep the ability to create mods like those out. One of the few things SWTOR did right was keeping the DPS meters personal so players can work on their rotations, but no one could run their mouths at someone else because they werent doing 50k DPS.
We talking about meters in game or parsers?
XI had parsers and I'm sure XIV will as well, as long as there's a combat log.
AMEN
i really can't put it into better words than this man right here